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Now see below how you scored on the test

Explanation

If you picked one or more of the above items, you failed the test. Don't feel badly though, most people do fail. Most are to some degree"religious", but religions are nothing more than man-made attempts to reach God.

The real answer of how to get to Heaven is not found in some religious system or by man's self-righteousness. God has declared that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10). "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23).

Further, God's Word teaches that sin is a very serious matter. II Thessalonians 1:9 tells of "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

What can you do about your sin problem ? Can you clean up your life, do good works and hope that in the end your good works will outweigh your bad works ? NO! Salvation does not come to those who work for it, but to those who cease from their own works, placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5 makes that point abundantly clear: "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "In Ephesians 2:8 & 9, it is declared, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

The issue is not what you can do for God, but what He has done for you. "But God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). "He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21). You have no righteousness of your own. To have eternal life you must have the righteousness of Christ (see Romans 3:26).

What then is your responsibility? God has given you a free will to either accept or reject what He has done for you. To have God's righteousness, you must believe that "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried; and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (I Corinthians 15:3, 4).
Your response to the gospel should be as we read of the Ephesians: "In Whom (the Lord Jesus Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13). This seal is a guarantee that your salvation is eternal--you can never lose it (see Ephesians 1:14, 4:30, IICorinthians 1:22).

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)

By placing our faith in Christ’s shed blood and nothing else, we can have eternal life.  Isn’t today a good day to place your faith in Christ?  There will never be a better time.  In fact, there is no guarantee of another day. Trust Christ today.  

To truly be of God's children, you must have faith in the Lord
by grace, repent for your sins, pray for others, do His will, and
love your neighbours and enemies.

It's not that hard - the Answer to getting into heaven is -Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Here is wisdom:

To know there is a God is not enough, we must know what He has said. "Every Word that proceedeth..."

He is The Word. Hear Him as you gaze into His face, leap over the wonder knowing it will be clear once you know enough.

Great is the day you have put it down for a moment and temptation has become distasteful.

Washed in the Blood, and that's a Fact.

I Love the Facts of Jesus.

Peace.

The Bible declares that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10).

Works do not help here. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the "GIFT" of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died "FOR" us" (Romans 5:8).

"Being now declared righteous by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:9).

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

Romans 5:15-21 tells of God's FREE GIFT of His righteousness and eternal life. "...so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:21).

Receive Christ now ! "AS ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord..."(Colossians 2:6). In Him is forgiveness of sins, God's perfect righteousness, and sure hope of heaven.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation..." (Ephesians 1:13).

There is no other way. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

AMEN Ambassador

Brother Love  :)

Thanks Bro  ;D

Therefore. The answer to the question is:





















None of the above.

I agree James

Brother Love :)

DITTO  ;D

If Christ were to yell in a Forest, and no thing were to Hear it, Christ hath not yelled at all.

"I am" is easy, it is even a good nickname, but to hear is only lessor than to believe.

What did He say?

IOW be obedient ;D

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).


Brother Love :)

As I told Ambassador. Very nice job of quoting PART of Scripture. Now deal with

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

Hebrews 10:26
For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

And countless other passage just like those that show we must be obedient for our faith to be efficacious.


You Protestants are just like the Catholics. You go to one erroneous extreme seeking to avoid the errors of the opposite extreme. You guys think that if works are involved at all, then salvation is based on what we do, not what God does. You have set up a false dichotomy between Faith and works. Works by themselves do nothing. But Faith without works also does nothing. You guys do a marvelous job of presenting a distorted view of Scripture and ignoring all the Scriptures that balance out the picture you present. One must read ALL of Scripture. One must adhere to ALL of Scripture. Taking a few verses out of context and setting them up as a canon within the canon will lead you into error.

As Brother Love quoted:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN

If you were to die right now and God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" Could you now say with confidence based on the authority of the Word of God, Because Christ died "FOR" my sins!

I've told you before, Ambassador, your view of salvation is all  ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

Why  should God let ME in heaven?
What has God done for ME?

This selfishness, which you try to portray as the Gospel, has no place in the Kingdom of God. This is why I said your question was meaningless. "Why should God let ME into heaven?" To that question we should ALL answer, "He shouldn't."

SonofAslan God's Word says that salvation is "the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). He is not going to have boasters in heaven there are enough of them on earth and nobody likes them. Now thats the bottom line.  ;D

So how do you deal with the other Scripture passages that I posted.

Again, I answered your question, so please answer mine. Do believe ALL of Scripture or only part? Or do you hold one part of Scripture to be more true than another part?



PS I  have never denied that salvation is a gift of God.

(2 Timothy 3:16 KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  ;D

Good.

Then how do you deal with the Scripture passages I posted?

(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, "rightly dividing the word of truth." ;D

Okay.......and that deals wiith these passages...how?? :-\


Why are you so hesitant to simply discuss what you think in a straightforward manner? I  have certainly never held my opinions and thoughts back from y'all. So why are you so reluctant to have meaningful dialogue?

Hebrews 12:2. Says. 'Looking unto Jesus the originator and perfecter of our faith--and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.' Jesus said on the cross . ' It is finished.' John.19:30. When we accept the salvation that God freely offers us, we are accepting a work that God has been completely satisfied with. Gods holy righteous demands have been fully met by Christ's one offering for sin. Hebrews 10:14 says ' For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.  ;D

Righteousness is given as a free gift and not something that we earn.

"...Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

 ;D

First, righteousness is NOWHERE called a free gift. Salvation is. And righteousness is NEVER something you "earn". It is something you ARE.

Second. I have heard NO ONE here say that salvation is something one earns, so stop arguing against things no one has affirmed and deal with the questions that are posed.

I ask again. How does that answer the passages I quoted.

Why do you refuse to deal with these passages of Scripture?

I'm looking for a very simple answer to  a very simple question. You say you believe ALL Scripture equally. Great. So do I. And yet, you keep affirming things that seem to deny certain passages of Scripture which I have pointed out. So I want to know how you deal with these particular passages.

Why is this difficult?

You know, I don't disagree with you very much ehre, Ambassador. I just think your emphasis is screwed up and your understanding of salvation is  a bit distorted. But on the "essential" issues here, I doin't think I disagree with you. Salvation is free, we don't earn it. however, your udnerstanding that RIGHTEOUSNESS is a free gift is wrong. We must BE righteous. Not merely LOOK righteous.  Christs did NOT take Goid's wrath on Himself. God is loving. He does not seek to punish us purely for the sake of punishing us. This retributive udnerstanding of salvation is wrong. God wasn't angry and Christ stepped in and intercepted the blow meant for us.  We were dead, and Christ restores us to life.

From The Mouths of Babes?

Wow, look at all the typos in my posts. I guess I need some editorial help.  :'(

mmmmmmm exactly who's the Babe?


And I think I retract my statement. After looking through a book tomight by an evangelical author, I have become more convinced that you, Ambassador, believe, contrary to teh Scriptures, that works play absolutely no role in our salvation. If that is true, I could not disagree with you more. I still affirm that salvation is a gift and we don't earn it, but to claim, as you appear to do, that works are completely nonconsequential is false.

So I would still like to see you deal with the Scripture passages I posted.

Ok, I must apologize and ask forgiveness from Ambassador and anyone else with whom I’ve been harsh, arrogant and/or rude. Please forgive me. I’m very sorry.





I have to do this on occasion.  :-[

You would be right to believe that, as it is correct.  Works play no part in our salvation.  They show proof of our salvation to MEN but they in no way, do anything FOR our salvation.  If you think they do, then you contridict yourself in saying that salvation is a free gift of God.  James does not EVER say that works save us as so many unfortunate people misread.

God bless,
Jason

Amen Brother

Brother Love :)

A little clarification here if I may.  We are]/i] righteous, not by our own works, but by the salvific work of Christ in our lives.  We are righteous because we have been washed in His blood.  Justified.  As for God not pouring out His wrath on Christ for our sake...


My friend, it is for the very reason that God is loving that Christ took our place in facing God's wrath.  God punishes sinners.  God had wrath for man and his sin.  Christ was wounded and crushed for our sins.  Retributive?  No.  Judgmental?  Yes.  Sin has a price.  Christ paid that price, and to say that God loves and wouldn't punish for the sake of punishing would be to call God anything but holy.  As a holy God, He is longsuffering, merciful and kind.  But as a holy God He is just, righteous and it is, my friend, a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God."  While I agree with you on some things, I think that your view of the price your salvation cost is lacking.   :)

I also think I need to pay attention to how I use these [] thingies... :P

Amen and Amen

Brother Love :)

Saved,

If you, in fact believe what you wrote, i.e. that works play no part in our salvation,  then I would like to see you explain why we can't be forgiven unless we forgive others (Matt 6)? Why the sheep were told to enter into God's kingdom based on their works (Matt 25)? Why James says we are justified by our works (James 2)? Why Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted to eb saved he had to obey the commandments and why afterwards he told this same man taht to be perfect he would have to sell all he had and give to the poor (Matt 19)? Why Jesus says obedience is necessary for CXhrist to make His home in us (John 14)? And loads more.

If your intention is to make a distinction between justification and salvation, you will be making a false and unbiblical distinction.

As for me contradicting myself, no, that would not be the case. That it is gift doesn't mean we don't have to do anything to appropriate it. Unless you believe God picks and chooses arbitrarily who will and who will not be saved? To say salvation is a gift simply means we neither earn nor deserve it. It does NOT mean we don't do anything to attain it.

Just for clarification, your claim that works play no role in our salvation contradicts Scripture, and I will show how your claim that james says no where that we are saved by works in false.

What james says is that we are justified by our works and not by faith alone. I'm assuming you are going to attempt to make a distinction between salvation and justification. This is a false distinction, and it is easy to demonstrate.

There is no one who is saved who is not justifed, and there is no one who is justified who is not also saved. There is no one who is not saved who is justified, and there is no one who is not justified who is saved. To be justified is to be saved, and vice versa.  So it is clear that justification plays not only a role but a crucial role in our salvation. If this is so, since works play a crucial role in our justification (as James plainly states), they must also necessarily play a role in our salvation.

Your claim to the contrary contradicts Scripture, James as well as all the other passages I cited.

It's a day bye day responsibility to Christians to be
in total dependence to God! If you are not enjoying your Christianity more than you did when you were saved something is wrong! Are you trying to live under a yoke of bondage? Let us keep in mind what Paul was trying to teach the Galatians in chapter three! For he said in chapter two verse sixteen Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith of Christ and not by the works of the law: for bye the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's WORK of what sort it is. If any man's WORK abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's WORK shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED: yet so as by fire"2 (I Cor. 3:11-15).

 ;D

Ambassador, would you please just answer the question I asked?

I'm not interested in "enjoying my Christianity". And if you are, then I would respectfully suggest that your focus is selfish and egocentric.

Please deal with the Scriptures I have cited.

Why does Jesus tell us that we can't be forigiven if we don't forgive?

Why does James tell us we are justified by works?

Why does Jesus  again tell us the criterai for entering the Kingdom is whether we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those in prison?

Why does Jesus tell us He will not abide in us if we are not obedient?

Why does Paul tell us if we willfully sin, there is no sacrfice for sins left?

Please, simply respond to these verses, and tell me how you deal with them. Why do you avoid this very simple very direct question?

SonofAslan,


What work must one do to be justified?

I have asked many people this question and no one has been able to answer it.

I ask you, what work must you do to be justified by God.

And please don't tell me you must die a martyr, in some jihad.

Awaiting your response.

Petro

I have quoted plenty of Scripture to answer your question. have you not read them?

SonofAslan

No this is my first read on this thread, but if you will direct me to where you wrote the answer to such a question, I will gladly read it.

Ptero

I just want one of you guys to tell me what you do with James and all these other passages. I have been posting these Scriptures for several  days now, and I'm getting frustrated. I will be MORE than happy to answer ANY question you have directly and simply Petro, but FIRST, I want ONE, just ONE, of you people who think we do nothing at all to tell me how you deal with all these Scriptures.


James says, and I quote, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

I want to know how YOU reconcile this with your claims that we must do nothing at all. Then I will tell you what you must DO to be saved. (That was a hint,  btw.)



Whew......sorry about that.  :-[

Thank you, Petro.  :)

Let me go back a page or two to where I list them in more detail. The last post kind of assumed people had read the earlier post. I will quote them.

There's 3 passages. the first says we must forgive others. The second says we must love our fellow man. And the third says we must reject  sin.

But this can all be summed up as "believe, repent and be baptized".

We can do none of these things without grace, but god has already bestowed His grace upon us. Now it is up to us to cooperate with this grace, and the more we cooperate, the more grace we receive.

Also to the list could be added Jesus' command to the rich young ruler  "obey the commandments".

But again, it can be summed up (even more briefly than I  did before) as love God and love your neighbor.

SonofAslan,

You are getting ahead of it all, here..

Grace produces Faith, and it is free, according oto Eph 2:8-9.

At what point then is a person justified?

The manner in which you asked the question;


together with the others,

leads any reader to assume you know the answer, or that you are seeking for an answer you already know to be true.

This is why I asked you;

What work must one do to be justified?

I will be happy to answer your question, and will do so, in my next post, to you.

But please tell just answer the question I have asked, since no one, in over 300 times I have asked this question of Christians has anyone given me a response, And i only ask you so that after, I give you the biblical response to how we understand these scriptures, you won't say, I knew that.

The bible answers this question, specifically, and I will give you all the scriptures you need to know the truth concerning this matter.

In reading the account of the sheep and the goats superficially, it appears that the sheep were justified by their works, but the fact is when one studies this passage of scripture closely, there works were a result of the justification by faith, so that their work was not counted towards their justification, it was a result of them being justified.

In the vernacular, they were noble much the same way sheep are noble when compared to goats, because they were sheep and not goats.

Petro  

SonofAslan,

Forgive me, are you saying  "Believe, Repent, and be Baptized"

is the "work"??



We deall with the scriptures the same way you should, by carefull study and consideration of what the Spirit teaches, concerning this matter;

Now, the subject here is;  "works" and "what work man performs necessary together with "faith" which causes God to justify a man.

Lets begin by posting the passage in scripturem at James 2, which deals with the question you have raised;

James 2
 10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Let me stop right here, hold your thoughts, my neighbor just came over and he has a problem, I will be back to you, ASAP.

Petro


My neighbors car won't start, he  needs a ride to work, he need to be at work within 1 hr, and with the traffic, we need to get on the road now I will get back to you, later.

Sorry, Petro

I am interested in your response. I thought,  however,  I did just answer your question. If you don't think so, I will try again.

I don't think you will be able to maintain your position re: the sheeps and goats though. The passage is clear that they enter BECAUSE of the deeds.

God knows who will receive His promise and He has revealed to man, the way, the truth, and the life, Jesus the Christ, King and Lord!

 John 6:28.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
 29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 2:11.  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 12.  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
 13.  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
 14.  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
 15.  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
 16.  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17.  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19.  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 22.  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
 23.  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
 24.  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
 25.  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
 26.  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
 27.  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 28.  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
 29.  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
 30.  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
 31.  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
 32.  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 33.  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 34.  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 35.  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
 36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 40.  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
 41.  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 42.  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 43.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
 44.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
 45.  And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
 46.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
 47.  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


James tells us we are not justified by faith alone but also by works. Justified in its use here means righteous. We are made righteous through faith that produces works of God. We are saved by faith but cannot be righteous with faith alone but a true faith will work at that faith and do the things,( works ), God has commanded us to do.



 James 2:14.  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 15.  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
 16.  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
 17.  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 18.  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
 19.  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 20.  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 21.  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
 22.  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 23.  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
 24.  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 25.  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
 26.  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Isn't Peter saying it in Acts 2:11-47?

Ollie,

Right, I am just asking if this is the work that he views as being the work necessary for salvation, since you are here, let me ask you;

How does this tie in with James 2, or Mat 25, since, since according to Peter, this is what needs to be done and it is given to understand that James is already speaking of one who claims to have the faith, which brought about what Peter states, must be done?

Mat 25, are altogether different works?  Wouldn't you say?


Blessings,  

Petro

Ollie,

Your statement above,  contradicts scripture, and you have posted one of them.

Can you reconcile your thoughts on the subject.

To the question; posed to Jesus by this man; at vs 28;

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?


They asked; What work can we perform, that we might work the works of God??  Note what led up to this question, verses 26-27.

Jhn 6
29  This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The other verse is;

Rom 4
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Sonof Aslan,

I tried posting this earlier, but lost my server.

Concerning your last comment, about the deeds of the sheep.

Don't count your chickens, yet.  I would suggest you read Mat 25:31-46, because, we will look at it next, after concluding these points.


Lets deal with the hard passages, which you, place faith in, which are an obstruction to you in dealing with James 2, the faith works passage.

The points we both agree, on so far in order for anyone to be saved is that they, whosoever, they be; are these two points;  the third point you have raised, may or may not bring us together, it depends on what you recognize which baptism is the real thing.

Unfortunately, I find that I have to deal with baptism this way, in order to come to agreement with people since there are different teafchings and understandings, concerning baptism.

1. All must BELIEVE -  of course this begs the question what is it, they must believe??

The answer to this is found in scripture and it is a process which begins with first simply trusting the word of God, which can only come after having heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation,  one must trust the word of God to be true, before one can believe it. The process leading up to saving Faith is given to us in (Eph 1:13). It ends with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or as it is stated therein, "sealed with the Spirit of Promise"

In your opinion, or from your own personal studies;  

What is it, you must believe??  

Many people will say imediately when asked this question, believe in Jesus.  The question is, Beleive,  What about Jesus??  This is what one must believe in the end, but at the beginning of the process, one must believe Gods word to be the truth , hear what Jesus said: (Jhn 7:16-19, 14:6)

What does the Gospel teach??  If not, the Gospel according to the Apostle Paul;

1 Cor 15
15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The main thrust of the Gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of sinners..that He shed His blood in the place of His people for the remission of Sin (Mt 1:21)

In order to make this a personal Gosple, one must understand and acknowledge and believe, one is a sinner, condemned to perish in Hell fire.   He died for MY sins, that I might not perish.

2. Second point, REPENT -   The person that understands and believes he is a sinner, and that Jesus shed his blood for sinner then must wrestle with the teaching of the word of truth, that unless one repents from sin, (and  by the way, this is the sin of unbelief) he cannot have his sins forgiven, this is the reality of the Gosple, one must act on light shed on ones understanding by the Gosple.

3. All must Be BAPTIZED - superficially, many take baptism to mean "water baptism";  I don't know where you are on this, but, I will tell you the scriptures speak of  One Baptism that matters, yet two types are mentioned, one of them is water baptism, (I had been going around in circles with a couple of individuals on this forum, who, claimed Baptism was necessary for Salvation (water immerssion)  giving the impression, that without water Baptism, it was impossible to be saved, and as I presseed the matter with them, they, conceded that water

Baptism was not what saved, but was necessary, since it was an ordinance instituted by the Lord Himself. I won't argue this point at all, but there are those who, take this to mean, and emphacise that unless one gets himself water baptized, he cannot be saved, and they even emphacise infant baptism, after having quoted Mk 16:16; in spite of the fact, infants are incapable of believing anything, because  of their age.

John the Baptist was ordained of God to Baptize in water , so that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel (Jhn 1:33) and by his own testimony He said God, said unto him, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (Jhn 1:33) , this was the reason, he came baptizing with water,

The Scripture says it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.  (Mk 1:4), and Jesus said His blood was the blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins.  (Mt 26:28)

Jesus, in;

Mk 16,   states emphatically;
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/.color]

Please Note,  the emphasis on the word "believe";  

Is it possile to be baptized in water and not believe??  And yet believe one is a Christian.?,

just because he was baptized in water, and belongs to a church or some organization.

I am speaking of the type of belief needed to become saved, not just believing in what one has done..

I know this has been long and tedious, but the ground work must be laid, in order to comprehend what comes next.

Tell me where you disagree, with what I have said, so far??

Blessings,  
Petro



   

Petro, no worries. I was away from the computer all this time anyway, so I didn't get interrupted by your interruptions one bit. :)

In my opinion, you misunderstand what "believe" means in Scripture. Notice Scripture never say we are supposed to believe something about something else. It always says we are supposed to believe IN someone. That someone is Christ. What do we have to believe?  No propositions. This is a tragedy of our post-Cartesian world that knowledge has come to mean factual knowledge of certain propositional truths. This was never what knowledge meant in Scripture. This is why the union of man and wife in sex is called "knowing". Isaac "knew" Rebekah. Knowing is an intimate relationship with someone. And believing in Christ means having that relationship with Him. And that's what we must "believe". We must come into an intimate relationship with Christ.

I have a lot more to respond to given your prolific activity during my absence, so bear with me please. :)

That's the first point, i.e. believe. And it is a belief, i.e. faith, which works. A faith which simply says, "Oh I believe that to be true" is nothing. It is dead. It saves no one. Faith must act. It must work. Otherwise... blech.

Second point, i.e. repent. I disagree with you on one minor, I believe, point. It is not the sin of unbelief we must repent of. It is ALL sin. As Scripture further says, whoever breaks one command is guilty of breaking all of it (I don't remember where it says that, but it's there). We must turn away from ALL sin in order to attain salvation. (I will have more on this later, as it is only grace that allows us to fully do this.)

Third point, baptism. Here is where sacramental understandings come in to play. It really is a tragedy that our post-Cartesian world has turned away from traditional metaphysical understandings. It is no coincidence, in my opinion, that Protestantism, with its great errors, is roughly contemporaneous with Descartes and his ultimate destruction of metaphysics. The greatest loss to come out of this is a loss of sacramental mentality. Baptism is a sacrament. What does that mean? It means the form can't be separated from the underlying reality. It means the infinite touches the finite. The infinite unites itself to the finite. This is why the sacraments are called mysteries. Because how can the infinite unite with the finite? How can that which transcends all reality become immanent in created reality? How can God become man? The Incarnation is the foundation for all sacraments. Now baptism is a sacrament. This means that the infinite reality, the bestowing of grace on man, the participation of man in the death and resurrection of Christ, become a reality through the finite reality of going under water. The reality of the sacrament cannot be separated from its form in the water. Now this doesn't necessarily have to be immersion, but it does require water. One can say it’s symbolic, but this is only true if one understands a symbol to carry the reality of that which it symbolizes within it. If by symbol one simply means that it merely represents some other reality, then that is false. Symbols are in a very real sense, that which they symbolize. Can someone be saved without being baptized? In exceptional circumstances, sure. God can do what he wants. But that is not the normal means by which the Holy Spirit enters the life of a believer. It is an exceptional case. Just as the thief on the cross is an exceptional case. Your understanding of two types of baptism is false, because it separates something that Scripture doesn’t separate. Scripture talks about the ultimate reality behind the physical manifestation of that reality, but it doesn’t separate out separate kinds of baptism. And yes, I know the Acts verses where the disciples said they only received the baptism of John. But that’s not conclusive one way or the other. Were they baptized by John, prior to Christ? Who knows? At Pentecost, the ultimate reality of the Holy Spirit transformed the physical reality of baptism, because that’s what baptism does, it is where the Holy Spirit comes upon the believer. This wasn’t possible before the Holy Spirit had been sent, and this is what happened at Pentecost. That there is only one baptism is explicitly stated by Paul in Ephesians 4:5. And I’ve seen your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21. It is wrong. The Baptism Peter is talking about is baptism in water. That’s why he says “not the removing of dirt from the body”. It is not that water washes away physical dirt that baptism saves us, but rather because it restores our conscience. This is also what Paul talks about when he says we are baptized into Christ death and raised with Him into life. This is all baptism in water, understood sacramentally.

Ok, one last thing. You stated to Ollie that the works of Matt 25 were different works. No. They are the same works. They are the works that arise from a living and obedient faith. It isn’t the specific acts that save us. We aren’t saved because we fed the hungry. We are saved because our living and obedient faith activated the grace bestowed on us by God for our salvation (more on that later too – probably on the other trhead).

"For I am PERSUADED, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD"4 (Rom. 8:38, 39).

Brother Love :)

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be SAVED BY HIS LIFE" (Rom. 5:10).

Brother Love :)

"...Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

Brother Love :)

"For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).  Do we receive a gift and then try to work for it to keep it?

Brother Love :)

The Bible says we are not capable of doing enough good to save ourselves. Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come SHORT of the glory of God;

The Bible says the Lord Jesus Christ paid for all our sins. He did not miss any of them, now or in the future.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;

The Bible says he paid enough. Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

I believe the Bible

Brother Love :)

AMEN Brother Love AMEN!!

As for your questions SOA, it seems Petro is dealing with you well so I will wait until it's done before I add anything to answering your questions.  I can see you are reading the bible, but your aren't reading it.  You seem to be as confused by what Jesus said to the rich man as many.  The rich man tried to justify himself by HIS works claiming to be righteous yet his god was his money and not Almightly God.  That is the point don't get so caught up in it.

The Bible says we are not capable of doing enough good to save ourselves. Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come SHORT of the glory of God;

The Bible says the Lord Jesus Christ paid for all our sins. He did not miss any of them, now or in the future.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;

The Bible says he paid enough. Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

I believe the Bible

Brother Love  
Posted by: Brother Love  Posted on: Today at 05:22:43am  
"For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).  Do we receive a gift and then try to work for it to keep it?

Brother Love  
Posted by: Brother Love  Posted on: Today at 04:52:33am  
"...Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

Brother Love  
Posted by: Brother Love  Posted on: Today at 04:48:32am  
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be SAVED BY HIS LIFE" (Rom. 5:10).

Brother Love  

AAAAAAAAAAAAMEN To All Of Your Above posts Brother Love ;D

A Christian once remarked: "Before I learned the truth of my eternal security, I held on to Christ with one hand and tried to serve Him with the other; but when I realized that both Christ's arms were around me, and I could never be lost, it left both my hands free to serve Him!" ;D

Two things are very important

To know Jesus Christ as your Saviour so as to be sure right now of your eternal destiny.

To know what is the right truth for the believer today so you can walk in its fullness.

 ;D

Saved, add away. I can handle more than one conversation at a time if need be. :)

And as to your comment, quite the contrary. I have read the Bible THOROUGHLY. I have spent well over 25 years reading the Bible. And very early on in this process, I chose to consciously reject all commentary on Scripture reading nothing but Scripture itself. I read Scripture without any study notes, commentary, without even any cross references. I wanted nothing of men to cloud my reading. I wanted ONLY what Scripture had to say. And I read it that way for many years until I had a good handle on it. Then I started comparing commentaries and study notes.

 The problem is, it seems to me, you read part of it and ignore the rest. Or you read part of it and decide that one part is more important than another part. You have decided that the parts that say salvation is a gift are more important than the parts that say salvation is something we must struggle for. That, and what you have been taught, have clouded your mind so you can’t see that all of Scripture teaches the truth equally. You can’t subordinate one part of Scripture to another. One must read all of Scripture together, and then by taking all the pieces and putting them together can one see the entire picture. This has caused you to be unable to see that while works are required, they do not save us. This seems like a paradox to you when it shouldn't be. It is nothing but what Scripture say throughout.

I do not mean to offend, and I hope I don't. If I do, I beg your forgiveness. But it seems to me that you have had your reading of Scripture tainted by the Protestant theology you have been taught. If you ignore all teaching of men, come to Scripture with a pure heart and a blank mind, and with much prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth, as Christ promised He will, then Scripture opens up like a flower. That you are tainted by what you have been taught is reflected in your comments on the rich man. You have added to Scripture what isn't there. Here, let me explain.

Nothing in the story of the rich man indicates that he was seeking to be justified by his deeds. He asked no question that everyone who has ever wanted to convert hasn’t asked. He came to Jesus and said, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”

There is no ulterior motive here. Nothing to indicate that he is seeking to justify himself before God. He asks a very straightforward question. Nothing in the passage indicates anything else. However, Jesus immediate response does indicate one critical factor which is ultimately the indicator as to why the man turned away saddened. He had no faith. The man came to Jesus and said, “Good teacher…” And Jesus responded, “Why do you call me good? None is good but God.”

Now how are we to understand this? We can’t ignore it, but we have multitudes of other passages that show us that Jesus not only is good, but is God. In fact, this passage indicates that if Jesus IS good, then He IS God. Let’s look at the passage carefully. Notice Jesus doesn’t DENY that He is good, but He merely asks the man why he called Him good. This, especially when read with the rest of Scripture, shows that Jesus is not denying His divinity, but rather remarking on the man’s lack of faith. The man does not believe in Christ. Jesus knows the hearts of men, as we are told in numerous other passages, and He also knows this man’s heart, and He sees that the man called Him “good” teacher not in faith, but in an attempt to “butter Him up”, as we say.  So Jesus gives the man a rather summary answer to the question, wishing to test the man. Jesus says, “You know the commandments. Keep them.”Then the man asks, “Which ones?” And Jesus lists them (at least the 6 that deal with the relationship between men ; significantly, Jesus left out the ones that deal with man’s relationship with God). But then we see something rather remarkable from the man. If, as you claim, he was attempting to justify himself according to his deeds before God, Jesus had given him a way out. The man could have said to himself, “Whew. I’m ok then. I have been doing that, and Jesus just told me that’s all I need to do. I’m in the clear. HA HA I’m going to heaven!” But no. The man was at least honest with himself. He knew that wasn’t enough. He had done that since his youth, and he knew from personal experience that something was still lacking. And so the man replies to Jesus, seeking more, “But I have kept these since my youth.” And here is where Jesus gives him the real answer to his question. The prior stuff was fluff simply to test the man. Jesus looked at the man and loved him (this is given to us in Mark’s account). And that He loved the man shows that what He says next is the true answer. He tells the man, “To be perfect, go sell all you have and come follow me.” THAT is what we ALL must do to be saved. THAT is the REAL answer to the man’s question. We must give up everything. Forsake all, and follow Jesus. If we aren’t willing to do that, we will never enter the Kingdom of God. THAT is the narrow way. And the man turned away saddened. Have I misinterpreted the text? I believe not, because Jesus’ next statement shows that the man has just rejected salvation. Jesus turned to His disciples and said, “How hard it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven.”

The reason I made no distinction in my initial citation of this passage between Jesus telling the man to obey the commandments and telling him to forsake all and follow Him is because they are basically the same thing (after all, Jesus didn't LIE to the man the first time, did He?). The only difference is that the former (i.e. the list of commandments) lists the external manifestations of the latter’s (i.e. forsaking all and following Christ) inner reality. In Aristotelian metaphysical terms, the “forsaking all and following Christ” would be the essence of what one must do to be saved, while the list of commandments would be the accidents. Do you know Aristotelian metaphysics? Or at least the distinction he makes between essence and accident? I hope so, or else my explanation just went sailing past you. :)

But the essence of the story still shows that what we DO plays a critical role in our salvation. For a much more in depth discussion of these, you can go to the Open Theism thread and read my post there. I went into much depth of what we must do to be “saved”.

Ambassador,

Nice story. Too bad it is contrary to Scripture. Now will you PLEASE give a straight answer to a simple question. PLEASE. WHY do you refuse to answer my question? I have asked nothing that should be difficult. If you believe Scripture, then EXPLAIN Scripture. Show how what you teach can be reconciled with what ALL of Scripture says. Don’t quote particular passages out of context, as if one Scripture passage could trump another and render it meaningless. Deal with the passages I cited, if you can. TEACH me. You spend all this time trying to preach the Gospel on here, so DO it. Show us how your belief can be reconciled with ALL of Scripture. PLEASE!!!!!!!!

Lord have mercy. You prattle on and on and ignoring these Scripture passages. Like Scripture doesn’t matter. You don’t honor your name very well. An ambassador is supposed to represent the person he is an ambassador for. But Jesus never refused to explain Scripture to one who asked. In fact, He spent much of His time, particularly post-resurrection, doing exactly that, i.e. expounding Scripture. So why do YOU refuse? I would like an honest answer here, and it seems all I get is dishonesty and rhetoric.



BrotherLove,
I do not see the relevance of your posts. I have never said that we COULD be good enough to EARN salvation. I have never even said that we will be saved because of what we do. So I fail to see how your comments have addressed what I posted. There is a lot of Scripture posting and himming and hawing, but BrotherLove and Ambassador, please address the Scriptures I posted. Your reading of Scripture contradicts the passages I have cited. And any reading of Scripture that contradicts other passages of Scripture is a false reading of Scripture. So unless you can reconcile your interpretation of the passages you have cited with the ones I have cited, then your understanding is false. I have asked you guys to explain your view in light of the passages I cited, and as of yet, both of you have refused. One could say that you refuse to do it because you don’t know how to deal with these other passages (which would render your interpretations false), but I would prefer to give you both more credit than that. So I will ask again. How do you deal with the passages of Scripture I quoted?

The work of Christ is the only work required for our salvation. Nothing needs to be added to what He has done. We are "complete in Him" (Col. 2:10).
 ;D

Christ died for sinners. He died for you and for me. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:21. Knowing that WE ARE ALL SINNERS we need to understand that God will pour out His wrath upon sin. Romans 2:5, 6 says "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Please read Revelation 20:10 - 15 for a description of "death") In order to avoid Gods wrath, all of our sins must be remitted. Websters dictionary defines remit as "to release from the guilt or penalty of". God has provided a way to be TOTALLY forgiven for our sins and that way is Jesus Christ, Gods Son. Romans 3:25 " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;". God will FREELY impute (credit) the righteousness of Christ for your justification. Romans 3:24 says "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". Now all that you must do to receive this free gift is BELIEVE. Romans 3:26 says "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.  ;D

The written Word of God, the Bible, emphatically states what we must understand and what we must believe if we are to be brought into a right relationship with our Creator. We can KNOW where we will spend eternity. It makes no difference what our opinions might be, but it makes all the difference in the world what Almighty God has said must be!  ;D

When you come to understand exactly what beliefs DO come from Scripture get back in touch with me. I have taken my beliefs from nowhere else.

You, on the other hand, can only maintain your beliefs by ignoring and distorting Scripture. When you can reconcile your beliefs with ALL of Scripture. I'll be waiting.

Problems arise when a person does not understand the Biblical doctrine of the two natures in the Believer, the difference between STANDING and STATE.

Passages in MATTHEW, ACTS, HEBREWS, and JAMES are the four books that people misquote the most to prove that a person can lose his salvation, plus ......... ;D

Thank goodness, SonOfAslan. I do that as best I can. What
I'm pertaining is that I try to base my belief in scripture soully
on scripture itself, not commentaries nor preachers.

I respect ye for that.

God bless you brother in faith. ;D

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)

Thank You Jesus

DITTO  ;D

2 Timothy 4: 16
" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctirne, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness."

A young girl was asked, "Aren't you afraid you might slip through the Lord's fingers?" "No Sir, I AM ONE OF HIS FINGERS," she replied.  ;D

Quote from A4C:

 

Brother, what was the point of typing that statement?

I'm still waiting for an honest, sincere and direct answer to a very simple question.

Quote from SonOf Aslan:


Not to be nosy, brother SonOfAslan, what was the question?

No need to worry about nosiness, Seven. :)

Early on in this thread, I asked A. how he reconciled his claims that we need do nothing at all to be saved with certain Scripture passages. The list is back there. He has yet to respond. Instead, he keeps posting non-responsive anecdotes and Scriptures. I would sincerely like to know how he thinks he can reconcile his claims with ALL of Scripture,  but he refuses to answer. So....

I'm still waiting for an honest, sincere and direct answer to a very simple question.

Quote from SonOfAslan:


Thanks bro for the clarification.

But if A4C believes that we need not do nothing to be saved,
he should read my post I made about how faith and works
coincide.

If he believes only believing in God will save him, he should check out this verse:

James 2:19-20
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the
devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith  without works is dead?"

Peace bro.

That was one of the verses.


I'm still waiting for an honest, sincere and direct answer to a very simple question.

SOA, didn't I type both verses?

Yeah, you typed two. I had listed quite a few though.

Oh I see.

Thank you again for the clarification. I owe you one bro!

God bless you. ;D

God bless you too, Seven. :)

I believe that all you have to do is follow this verse: Romans 10:9 " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth thy Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved."  

Now if you want treasure to throw at Jesus's feet you will do works to please and worship Him.  I am not saying that works get you into heaven because they don't.  Read Titus 3:5.  

I don't believe that anyone can loose salvation.  Read Romans 8:38-39 and Jesus said that there is one that He ever lost, which would be Judas because he betrayed Jesus just before He was dying on the cross.

I believe that once you are saved you can never loose salvation because I believe that Jesus wipes away the sins of your past, present and future.  

I hope that you all can know your security in Christ and that you can't loose salvation.  Please I didn't do this to start a fight, but only to state what I believe is the truth.  I refuse to fight with anyone( I was veiwing the past forums).

Hope all find security in Jesus,

Kris

SonasAslan,
 
I think not, I understand what the word "believe"  means perfectly well, as spoken of in the scriptures, it is not that difficult, and not as mystrerious as you might make it to be.

And, regardless of the fact that the scriptures have been written in Hebrew/Greek and translated into English, the fact is, it can be understood, by the reader of English, perfectly wel.

Note:

The Word believe in this verse, it specifically is speaking of faith in God, not Jesus it is God the Father, who sheds mercy and grace,thru faith, "it is a gift of God"; the natural man always wants to appeal to the Father, instead of the Son, yet he can't get there from here, because the Son is the One that reveals the Father, and  no one can come to the father except by the Son (Jhn 14:6), the Father is the One who gives the gift of salvation in the end..manifested by the indwelling seal by the His Spirit. (Rom 8:9)

This is the proof of the pudding and if one belongs to Christ, he possess the Spirit of God, who witnesses to our spirit, we are the sons of God, this is the inward witness, we belong to Him. (Rom 8:16-18), and those that are led by the Spirit of God, are the children of God (Rom 8:14)

No follow this closely;

Heb 11
 6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now, while this agrees with your statement, that one must believe in someone, that someone is God.

And then again, this person (he) at the above verse is given to Christ by the Father (Jhn 6:37); this is the end result of the Father drawing the person  to Christ, (Jhn 6:44)  , so that his belief or faith is in Jesus, and not in his (the individuals) works. I think so far, it appears we agree.

Except for this point.

But then we come to Baptism.


You are correct, we must forsake sin, but there is only one sin that separates sinfull man, from God. Because it only took Adam, one sin to bring on death.  All other sins are simply evidence of the sinful, nature.  

God is offering a pardon, and the sin of unbelief, is the sin, which keeps mankind from coming to God by Faith,  although man can excersice faith, he can't do it in the spiritual realm, because He is dead to the things of God (1 Cor 2:14),

When one comes to Faith in Christ because of God the Spirit working in this person to draw his to Christ, the sin of unbelief, is settled, once and for all time, sins are forgiven, and then sinner, ism cleansed from sin, and brought out from bondage to sin, to a new life in Christ.

The sin of unbelief, is the sin, that condemns all mankind in this age of Grace, God is offering a pardon to everyone, and sinners must receive or accept this gift on Gods terms, those that don't will be judged not  ,for their sins, but their works;

Yes, this is what I said, all of mankind, will be judged not for their sins, but their works in the end, because all men want to work there way into Gods grace, even those claiming to be Christians, this is what separates the believers of grace only and believers in grace plus works. (doing good and/or keeping the law)

All are dead in Adams original sin (1 Cor 15:45) the process of dying began with Adams sin (Rom 5:12), prior to this there was no death, even the creation groans because of the result of Adams sin (Rom 8:21-22), and there is none that doeth right, according to the word.

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do you disagree with me because,  you believe a Christian must keep the  the Law perfectly and do good works?

You had previously stated, the work is; believe, repent, and be baptized; yet know it includes good works.

I trust this isn't so, since the scriptures have declared from the beginning, that;

The law was never given that by keeping it man, could be saved, in fact the Law was only given to man, that He might KNOW he had sinned, the Apostle made this plain as daylight, in Rom 3:20.

The Jew unto whom the oracles of God where entrusted to, could have his sins atoned for in the OT, by bring an animal, in accordance with the law that it could be sacrificed for his sin, but all these were just a shadow, pointing to the real sacrifice of God's own Lamb - Jesus, death, burial and resurrection ended the OT Law of sin and death (Moses Law) (Rom 8:2).

The OT laws and ordinances were abolished in His (Christ) flesh, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;   Eph 2:15.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Rom 3:31)
And Christians today live unto a higher law, (I think you made reference to this in passing)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. By the law of faith  (Rom 3:26-28), so that Love and Obedience with you talked about is the result of Faith.

Unbelief, is what keeps people from coming to Jesus, they refuse to believe what the Spirit teaches, and that is, that all manner of sin can be forgiven, except blashpeme of the Holy Spirit.

Man confesses with his mouth what he believes in His heart, and since confession is made unto salvation (Rom 10:10), likewise, unbelief, requires confession, at it is manfested by rejecting what the Spirit expressly teaches(Mat 12:31-32).

And this is what the Spirit teaches, thru;
1 Jhn 5
12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Can you lose "Eternal Life"??  If you answer yes, you deny the very words of Jesus, He says,

"they shall never perish", if you can lose it, it may very well be you never possessed it to begin with.

Now, Faith in Jesus, ends unbelief, and everyone that believes has "ternal life" according to the Spirit.


Cont'd...................

SonofAslan.........continued for previous post..


The Brazen Serpent was a real object, and yet, it symbolized life or death depending whether someone looked upon it in faith, or not,  (of course scripture doesn't say,  these exact words that they who looked upon it by faith would live), but it is plain the peoples FAITH was not in the object but in the promise of God, that whosoever looked upon it, would live, after having bitten by the serpent, and yet this symbol of life, which gave prevented death to many, had to be destroyed because in the end,  because, it became a symbol of death, when they worshipped it by burning incense to it.

Water Baptism, plainly is symbolic of the real Baptism, promised in John 1:31, and according to the scriptures it is grasped by faith. (Col 2:10-12),  I agree, it is an sacramental ordinance, and should  be obediently observed by all Christians, unfortunately it is emphasized as though the mere act of baptism obtains the spiritual reality of it.  

This is evident in the the baptism of infants, within churches, this very act, is contray to scripture, since Jesus made it clear, who is saved.

The parameters of the ordinance was defined by the Lord, at Mat 16:16, He emphacized that same word "believeth" as the qualifying factor, it is plain, and unbeliever , i.e. Such as an infant may be baptized, or some other person, but it accomplishes nothing for them.

In fact, one could almost state, there are people, that have died in unbelief, having been baptized in water.


I  agree, perfectly at this point.

Does your church followup, on infants who have been baptized, to bring them into a more perfect understanding of the scriptural teaching??

Or, does the church just assume they will be saved, down the road.

In exceptional circumstances, sure. God can do what he wants. But that is not the normal means by which the Holy Spirit enters the life of a believer. It is an exceptional case. Just as the thief on the cross is an exceptional case. And so was, Paul, Cornelius, and his family, the Ethiopian Eunuch, and all others who are saved, after Pentecost;  this is where we disagree, since salvation occurs at the baptism/sealing of the Holy Spirit and not when water baptism occurs, the ordinance of the physical is ssymbolic of the reality, I think thiese where your words.


Ohh...........?  The scriptures tell us , There were many disciples that followed Jesus, and when He spoke it was necessary to  eat His flesh and drinking His blood, many where offended, and followed Him no more, (Jhn 6:66)
The Orthodox church is no different than the Catholic church, or the Lutheran chuch, together with others, which baptize infants, many people in these instituions (not all I admit) have been water baptized and, cannot articulate, what you have articulated about water baptism, all they know is I am a Christian because I have been baptized and am a member of this  church.

I separate them, not because they are seprate but because, in order to see the error, it needs to be separated to be examined, closely, More emphasis is made on water baptism, than the baptism, which Jhn said would be performed by Jesus (Jhn 1:31)


Well, actually, Ollie, does not believe in Adams sin (original sin), being passed on to all men (Rom 5:12), but it matters little whether one believes it, won't change the truth one bit, since ALL sin, and there is none that doeth right ( Rom 3:10,23), none includes infants, unfortunately.

But infants and their deatrh, is another matter, no sense in discussin git here.

You are confusing the issue though, you need to explain what you mean, here.

You said, above;
"We aren't saved because we fed the hungry. We are saved because our living and obedient faith activated the grace bestowed on us by God for our salvation."

The scriptures do not support this statement at all, as written, please explain.

The fact is the saved, Christian do these things, not to be saved,

But because we the elect,  are saved. And these works are Evidenced by our obedient living.
Jesus put it this way.........................

................You shall know them by their fruits.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:16-18)

Blessings,

Petro

Thank You Kriss777
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!

Wheeeeeew!

What is Up in the Cyber-Body?

I must first admit that after intent study as I began this set of threadly's, I did slack off and quick read to the end. I saw a few things I just wanted to mention if you do not mind, of course...

Good stuff popping up here and there, good points, questions, etc. Passion and kindness that compared to the world today can bring a tear to the trained eye because it is rarer than you think.

I will further clear the air with a quick admission: I am a Bible Nerd! Long Time, been there done that...and I have a couple of things I just wanted to share from an oldie with hours of Flight time, You know what I am say-in?

You gain levels as you study that can not be faked nor forgotten. You see things besides just main keywords like law, and salvation, and Believe, and well you get the idea.

Example:
You find that knowing Him really means knowing Him. You hear Him speak within scripture and you notice after a while you can tell when He is talking to one group and later just by the tone you know unto whom He is speaking then also.

Anger in "Think not that I come to save, But to DESTROY"  and you see the Tare being scolded and warned to Fear The Lord!

Love in "I come not to Destroy, but to save that which was Lost!"

You know who is being spoken to but some how never log it as being very important. After learning this well, and feeling what He must have felt while speaking, you quickly learn how to know He is talking to more than one group throughout the tale, and when.

Holy - Rare
Righteous - Few
Unjust - Many
Filthy - Most

As a matter of Fact this knowledge of Him is so important He has enclosed four examples every time (almost) He had the chance within scripture just to make this stick out as much as possible.

Look for clusters of four from the following examples within scripture, see for your self If what I am trying to share with you is a fact or fiction:

Grass
Trees
Suns
Moons
Locust
Scorpion
creepy thing
Fowls of the Air
Canker Worm
Spider
Conie
Vine
Branches
Fig Tree
Olive Tree
Wheat
Tare


The list is very long so I will not attempt to post it all, and the above are not linked but instead in random order, so you will be looking for "any" four, not just any order of the ones listed.


Conclusion:

Every One here seems to be in Love with Jesus Christ.

They desire to Know Him even while He is away, and with little to go on they press on doing the best they can with what they have got.

As I read your posts here I see the tale differently because of the levels I have running at all times. I see as He turns His head speaking unto one, and then the other. I feel in His Heart a great depression as He must sound angry because it is so hard for Him to even sound Mean. I myself must confess in finding New examples and subjects within scripture that I have never before had time to explore, and I tear them up! (Get into them so deep they bust...), but my interest is deeper than who He is speaking to at any given moment, I use these levels to better position myself into Hearing Exactly what He says.


Scripture is still fresh with me, as if new each time.

But I know Him. I follow Him in the Word, Yes, but also at every turn of the Head, and every change of the Tone. This is all I have found missing that is a must Have unto all who desire to know Him. To know unto whom is being spoken too is Key when rightly dividing the Word. We all use this every day as you might be sweet all day and then have to yell at some jerk who leaves a dog out That's too big and actually a danger to others. Should you think Me always sweet and find me foney because you saw me yell once, will you think I mean all dogs or just that one,  that is the sway of something besides the Rock. Knowing me would cause a close one to know exactly how I felt and why I was saying what I was saying. Every time He speaks He may be talking to a different group. If one group takes all things spoken as unto them only, you would be looking at exactly what is wrong with the union of Churches today.

What Union you say?

Exactly!

All of these studies are good in the Word, but let's remember we are supposed to be getting to know Him, not each other.

Please get to know Him, so that you can better believe Him.  

It is a pleasure to serve.

John.

Ambassador,

I’m still waiting for an honest, direct and sincere answer to a very simple question.



Petro,

I had a long answer that got lost, so I will shorten it.

First, that some Orthodox don’t understand Orthodoxy is irrelevant. What many Orthodox can or cacnnot articulate is irrelevant.
Second, you can’t separate the symbol from the reality.
Third, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate Paul, and Cornelius weren’t baptized, and Scripture clearly says the Ethiopian Eunuch was baptized.
Fourth, you have a wrong understanding of salvation if you think it is something that happens and is over with. Salvation is the process of becoming a son of God. What Christ is by nature, we become by grace. If you want Scripture for this, see 2 Peter 1:4
Fifth. We aren’t judged by our deeds because we are trying to be judged by our deeds. God isn’t bound by our standards. He creates His own. You won’t find the notion that judgment according to our deeds is merely God stooping to our expectations anywhere in Scripture. But you will find numerous passages that say we must watch, we must strive, we will be judged by our deeds, we must do good works, etc. that is all OVER Scripture as a warning against becoming complacent and assuming that you don’t have to do anything and God will just *poof* you into heaven.
Sixth, yes Hebrews does say we must believe THAT… (I had actually forgotten that passage), but I don’t think it takes away from my main point which is that believing IN Someone, in this case Christ (John 3:16 for one clearly says that it is Christ we are to believe in, but I don’t think you can believe in Christ without believing in the Father and vice versa, so I don’t want to press this point) establishes an intimate relationship with that person. It is not just believing certain facts about a person. Just like “know” is used to refer to the union of a married couple in the conjugal act, so also believing in Christ indicates a union with God that is typified by the union between a married couple in sex. This is why Paul compares the Church’s relationship with Christ to that of a marriage.

Scripture is clear that our works play a role in our salvation, but don’t in themselves save us. If you’re trying to pursue this discussion from a Calvinistic standpoint where God choose who will and will not be saved without ANY desire on our part, then I will have to bring out different points. From some other posts I’ve seen you make, this would seem to be the case, but I don’t want to assume it, so I’m asking. Is this where you’re coming from? God arbitrarily chooses who will and won’t be saved?

If we are willing to accept and teach the truth as outlined in Ephesians 4:4-6, we can do away with a lot of confusion and division among the local churches and denominations. Many false teachers have lied to us and tried to make us do certain things to help the Lord out and to make us have a part in our salvation, but when we know the truth, we can see that He did it all.

 

Ephesians 4:14 that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

 

Ephesians 4:4 there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 6. One God and father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

 ;D

First, it must be noted that the Bible in my hand says "The gospel of Christ is the power of Cod unto salvation" (Ro. 1:16), not our good works (Ephesians 2:8 and 9) or our righteous lifestyle (Ti. 3:5) or our baptism (1 Co.1:17).
Second, the Bible also states that the gospel, "by which also ye are saved..." is that "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day." (1 Co. 15:1-4)
That is all pretty straight forward and simple.
But nobody likes to be told that he is a sinner and must trust what someone else did to make amends.

Instead of being told to trust the finished work of Jesus Christ, people are instead being instructed to come forward and make a commitment, or to sign a card, but that is not the same thing.
Others are told to pray through and I was at one meeting where a potential convert had come forward and one altar worker was telling them to 'let go' while another altar worker on person's other side was telling them to 'hang on."
Popular today is to "Open your heart's door and let Jesus into your heart;"but that is not the gospel either: hearts do not have doors, and no verse in any Bible says that Jesus wants into the heart.
Many have the idea that Christianity is joining a church or giving money, but none of those things are included in the gospel of salvation.
It should be obvious that if a man can do things to earn his trip to heaven, Jesus Christ wasted His time on Calvary's cross. In fact, His death was for our sins, His burial was payment for the wages of sin, and His resurrection
demonstrated victory of death and hell. Those items are the elements of the gospel. Faith in what Jesus did, then, is what saves.
It could not be much simpler, but maybe that is the problem. Mankind tends to reject simple solutions, especially when such solutions declare man's best efforts worthless in the face of what Cod, in Christ, has already accomplished.

Grace & Peace  ;D

"There is none righteous, no not one."
"How should man be just with God?"
(Romans 3:10 and Job 9:2)


Since man is a sinner and God is holy, how can they meet? Job asked this question thousands of years ago, and man is still asking how he may become righteous in the eyes of God, or how God might excuse him for his sin. Job's three friends each had a solution to the problem; each one had a different idea, but the foundation of all three was a salvation based on human works. So, today, men are still offering the same answers as did the three friends of Job.
First - Bring God down to man's level. That is Demonism.
Second - Evolve man to God's level. That is modernism.
Third - Put on a nice, outward appearance. That is ritualism.

There is always a way "that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12).

To Job's three friends, God said. "Ye have not spoken unto Me things which are right, like My servent Job." Therefore we conclude that Job knew the right answer and that his three friends were wrong. Job's answer was:
"For He is not a man as I am, that I should answer Him and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any DAYSMAN betwixt us that might lay His hand upon us both" (Job 9:32-33). In otherwords, Job said that there must be a MEDIATOR, or a go-between, if he was to be accepted by God. What kind of a mediator did Job need? What kind of a mediator does man need today?

First of all, that mediator must be both God and man, and not only that, He must also be a REDEEMER, in order to redeem man from sin. And Job could say: "I know that my REDEEMER liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth" (Job 19:25). In I Timothy 2:5 we read: "There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." That One who was in the form of God, but made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servent, came in the likeness of men, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Philippians 2:5-8). By His death on the cross He became the Redeemer of mankind.

"For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich" (II Corinthians 8:9).

How then, can man receive the blessings of this matchless work of grace? First let us see how it is not obtained:

NOT BY WORKS


"Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5)
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God...Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was counted unto him for righteousness" (Romans 4:2-3).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).


NOT BY THE LAW
(The ten Commandments)


"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,....for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16).

"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21).

The purpose of the law is to stop all mouths; and it is the instrument by which the whole world is proven guilty before God. See Romans 3:19-20.

The law curses. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continnot in all the things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Galatians 3:10).

The law is called the ministration of death, "written and engraven in stones," in II Corinthians 3:7.

"The law was our schoolmaster, to bring us unto Christ" (Galatians 3:24). "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Romans 10:4), and He "took it out of the way, nailing it to His (Colossians 2:14). And now - "Ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14).


"THEREFORE" -


"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).

"By Him (Christ) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:39).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

John Bunyan wrote the following lines: "The righteousness of God, that is a righteousness of God's completing, a righteousness of God's bestowing, a righteousness that God gives unto and puts upon all them that believe, a righteousness that stands in the work of Christ, and that is imputed both by the grace and justice of God, the righteousness by which we stand just before God from the curse, was performed long ago by the Person of Jesus Christ."

By grace we are saved - Eph. 2:8-9.
By grace we are redeemed - Gal. 3:13.
By grace we are brought near - Eph. 2:13.
By grace we are justified - I Tim. 1:15.

 ;D

Thank You A4C Amen

Only as we thus "rightly divide the word of truth" can we be sure that we have a legitimate part in the program of God-and only then can we begin to fully comprehend what God has so richly given us in Christ.

 ;D

Many people think they will go to heaven because they have lived a good life. Perhaps, they treat all of their neighbors fairly. Maybe they volunteer for charity work and have never broken the law. Maybe they were even baptized or go to church regularly. But the Bible, God's Word, says that no one can live up to God's standard of righteousness.

Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one ...."

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ...."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Salvation cannot be earned. Everyone is a sinner and deserves death, but God gives eternal life. So how can we receive God's gift of eternal life?

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ...."

To be saved, we must believe the gospel. The word "gospel" means "good news". But before we can believe the good news, we have to know what it is.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel ... that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures ...."

This is the gospel which we must believe in order to be saved. Now, how does believing this gospel save us?

Romans 5:8-9 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Romans 3:22-26 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (appeasing sacrifice) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

We can be saved from the wrath of God, because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins and rose from the dead. He paid the price for us, and we are justified in God's eyes through our faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast."

There will be no boasting in heaven. We cannot be saved by our own righteousness, but only by God's grace, through faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Once we believe the gospel, we are sealed with God's Holy Spirit. This is God's deposit, that guarantees he will redeem us, whom our Lord Jesus Christ "purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).

Studying the Bible is an essential part of the growth of every believer.
 
 ;D

Amen!

By grace we are saved - Eph. 2:8-9.
By grace we are redeemed - Gal. 3:13.
By grace we are brought near - Eph. 2:13.
By grace we are justified - I Tim. 1:15.
 Amen & Amen

Brother Love :)

Quote A4C: There will be no boasting in heaven. We cannot be saved by our own righteousness, but only by God's grace, through faith.
 Amen Brother

Brother Love :)

Matthew 11:27.  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 28.  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 29.  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
 30.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

All ye that take Jesus Christ's yoke upon you and learn of Him are going to find rest.

 Hebrews 4:9.  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
 10.  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 11.  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
 12.  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Gods Word to me

The Bible declares that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10).

Works do not help here. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the "GIFT" of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died "FOR" us" (Romans 5:8).

"Being now declared righteous by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:9).

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

Romans 5:15-21 tells of God's FREE GIFT of His righteousness and eternal life. "...so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:21).

Receive Christ now ! "AS ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord..."(Colossians 2:6). In Him is forgiveness of sins, God's perfect righteousness, and sure hope of heaven.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation..." (Ephesians 1:13).

There is no other way. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

I repeat, Gods Word to me ;D

Amen & Amen

Thjank You Jesus

Some more Word of God to me

Galatians 1:11-12---“ But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

 

Paul’s gospel states that Christ died for all mans sins, and was buried then rose again on the third day. All we have to do today is truly believe this gospel and we are saved.

 

I Corinthians 15:1-4---“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

Romans 10:9-10---“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

 ;D

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesians 2:11-16

 ;D

And some more

And I [Paul] thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. I Timothy 1:12-16

 ;D

more:

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Romans 16:25

 ;D

Not only does God know if one is going to go to heaven but an individual should know if he/she is christ's. One must make their calling sure according to God through Christ.

Galatians 3:29.  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

A man may go to heaven......
without health, without wealth;
without fame, without a great name;
without learning, without earnings;
without culture, without beauty;
without friends and without ten thousand other things-----
But he can NEVER go to Heaven without My Lord Jesus Christ!!

As true Americans celebrate their liberty, true Chris-
tians should rejoice in the even greater liberty which they
have in Christ.

Our Lord said: "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth
shall make you free" and "If the Son, therefore, shall make
you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:32,36). Likewise
St. Paul declares that believers in Christ have been made
"free from sin" and have become "servants to God," who
deals with us in grace (Rom. 6:22).

It is strange that so many sincere religious people ac-
tually wish to be in bondage to the Mosaic Law, which can
only judge and condemn them for their sins. Peter called
the law: "a yoke...which neither our fathers nor we were
able to bear" (Acts 15:10). Paul called it "the handwriting of
decrees, that was against us, which was contrary to us" (Col.
2:14). He called it "the ministration of death" and "the min-
istration of condemnation" (II Cor. 3:7,9).

He challenged those who "desired" to be under the law:

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear
the law?" (Gal. 4:21).

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written. Cursed is every one that CONTINUETH not in ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10).

Thank God, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of
the law, being made a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13). Man always
responds better to grace than to law. The law was "added
because of transgressions" (Gal. 3:19). "By the law is the
knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). But Christ died for our sins
and now true believers serve God from gratitude and love.
Hence Rom. 6:14 says: "Sin shall not have dominion over
you, for ye are not under the law but under grace." Since
Christ has redeemed us from the law (Gal. 4:5) God says to
every true believer:

"Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).

Another Amen

Brother Love :)

This was Posted By A4C on another thread, I really liked it.

HE PAID IT ALL

After living a "decent" life my time on earth came to an end.
The first thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I thought to be a court house.
The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the defense table.

As I looked around I saw the "prosecutor," he was a villainous
looking gent who snarled as he stared at me, he definitely was the most evil personI have ever seen.

I sat down and looked to my left and there sat my lawyer, a kind and gentle looking man whose appearance seemed very familiar to me.

The corner door flew open and there appearedthe judge in full flowing robes.
He commanded an awesome presence as He moved across the room and I couldn't take my eyes off of Him.

As He took His seat behind the bench He said "Let us Begin."

The prosecutor rose and said "My name is Satan and I am here toshow you why this Person belongs in Hell."
He proceeded to tell of lies thatI told, things that I stole
and in the past when I cheated others.

Satan told of other horrible perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke the further down in my seat I sank.
I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own lawyer, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely forgotten about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was equally upset at my representativewho sat there silently not offering any form of defense at all. I know I had been guilty of those things, but I had done some good in my life -- couldn't that at least equal out part of the harm I've done.

Satan finished with a fury and said "This Person belongs in Hell, He is guilty of all that I have chargedand there is not a person who can prove otherwise.

Justice will finally be served this day."

When it was His turn, my lawyer first asked if might approach the bench. The Judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan, and beckoned Him to come forward.

As He got up and started walking I was able to see Him now in His full splendor and majesty.
Now I realized why He seemed so familiar, This was Jesus
representing me, my Lord and my Savior.

He stoppedat the bench and softly said to the Judge "Hi Dad" and then He turned to address the court.
"Satan was correct in saying that this Person had sinned,
I won't deny any of these allegations.
And yes the wages of sins is death and this Person deserves to be punished"

Jesus took a deep breath and turned to his Father without stretched arms and proclaimed "However, I died on the Cross
so that this person might have Eternal Life and She has
accepted me as Her Savior, so this Person is mine."
My Lord continued with "This Persons name is written in the book of life and no one can snatch it from ME.

Satan still does not understand yet, this Person is not to be given justice but rather Mercy."
As Jesus sat down, He quietly paused, looked at His Father and replied "There is nothing else that needs to be done,
I've done it all"

The Judge lifted His mighty hand and slammed the gavel down and the following words bellowed from His lips --


"This Person is free -- the penalty
for His sin has already been paid in full,Case Dismissed."


Author Unknown

Brother Love :)

Our Lord said in John 8:32: "And ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you free." To this the religious
leaders replied: "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in
bondage to any man: how sayest Thou, Ye shall be made
free?" But our Lord answered: "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (Ver.
34). Paul says the same thing in Rom. 6:16:

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Sad to say, many sincere religious people think that they
can free themselves from sin by putting themselves in
bondage to the Law, the Ten Commandments. This never
works, for the Law can only condemn the sinner. Rom.
3:19,20 declares that the Law was given "that every mouth
may be stopped and that all the world may be brought in
guilty before God.. .for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Again we have to turn to Christ for salvation and true
liberty. He "died for our sins" (I Cor. 15:3) and has "re-
deemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13).

Having believed this and trusted Christ as Savior, true
Christians serve the Lord, not from fear, or to gain favor,
but out of sheer love and gratitude. This is true liberty and
this service is the only kind that God desires from us. Prob-
ably no man ever served the Lord more sincerely or tire-
lessly than the Apostle Paul. In II Cor. 5:14 he gives us the
secret: "The love of Christ constraineth us ...."

Brother Love :)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN  ;D

Thanks Brother


Brother Love :)

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight. . ." (Rom. 3:20).

It is strange that so many sincere people can so misun-
derstand God's written Word as to suppose that He gave the
Law "to help us to be good" or "as a rule of life."

The Law was not given to help us to be good, but rather
to show us that we are sinners and need a Savior. Rom.
3:22,23 says that "there is no difference, for all have sinned
and come short of the glory of God." How foolish, then, to
look to the Law for help. Though the Law provides for just
trial it does not help the criminal; it condemns him. Thus
the Bible teaches that the Law was given:

"That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be
brought in guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).

"The law entered that the offense might abound" (Rom. 5:20).

"That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful"
(Rom. 7:13).

"It was added because of transgressions" (Gal. 3:19).
This leads us to Paul's great conclusion:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom. 3:20).

This makes sense, for doing a few "good" things cannot
right the wrongs we have done. Good is what we should do,
hence we should not expect to be rewarded for it.

But, thank God, "Christ died for our sins" (I Cor. 15:3)
and "by Him all who believe are justified" (Acts 13:39).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Brother Love :)

That is GRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT Teaching Bro, John THE Baptist will LOVE it  ;D

“The demons also BELIEVE, and tremble,” James2:19) but nowhere in the Bible are we told they believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They DID believe on Him as their coming tormentor and destroyer. See Matt. 8:29; Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8. And they also believed “there is one God.” But multiplied millions have so believed and died eternally lost! Believing “there is one God” will not save, but believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour will! John 5:24; Acts 16:31.

 ;D

The Bible is very clear concerning what you must now do in order to make His perfect, complete salvation your own. Salvation is a wonderful truth. But is will be of no value to you unless you believe it. It is through FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ and His complete work that the cleansing power of the blood is applied. It was His sacrificial death on the cross which provides salvation for any lost sinner who will simply TRUST IN HIM as the ONLY Saviour for sin and the ONLY way to heaven. When we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died, was buried and was raised again bodily from the tomb, and trust that all this was done to accomplish a perfect salvation for sinful man, then we receive full forgiveness of sins and the gift of everlasting life!

Thanks Brother, thats a keeper

Brother Love :)

It was His sacrificial death on the cross which provides salvation for any lost sinner who will simply TRUST IN HIM as the ONLY Saviour for sin and the ONLY way to heaven. When we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died, was buried and was raised again bodily from the tomb, and trust that all this was done to accomplish a perfect salvation for sinful man, then we receive full forgiveness of sins and the gift of everlasting life!

Amen & Amen

Brother Love :)

Thaks Bro ;D

The Apostle Paul told the overseers of Ephesus in Acts 20:28-30, that savage wolves would come in among them not sparing the flock.  He said they would speak perverse things, to draw away  disciples  after  them-selves.  Paul warned Timothy in this letter about those who would teach any other doctrine, or fables (1:3). He also told him there would  be those who would give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy (4:1, 2).

Who are the "such" Paul tells Timothy to withdraw from in 6:3-5?  No doubt, they are some of the same ones Paul has had in mind all along.  In 6:1, 2, they aren't teaching the saints submission and humility, but to rise and rebel; to assert their rights.  These teachers aren't acknowledging that God committed to Paul: "whole-some words"; "the words of our Lord Jesus Christ"; and "the doctrine which is according to godliness " (verse 3).  They are ignorant and proud at the same time, and are obsessed with arguing and debating over words (verse 4).  These are "destitute of the truth", and teach that Godliness is a means of gaining this world's goods (verse 5).  "From such withdraw thyself!"

Timothy was supposed to save (deliver) himself and his hearers   (4:16). He was supposed to establish the saints in "the faith" (the body of truth for the Body of Christ.)  To do this, it was, and still is necessary to "withdraw" from those who cause the saints to "depart from the faith" (4:1); who cause God's Name and doctrine to be blasphemed (6:1); and those who bring about envy, strife, evil suspicions, constant friction, and confusion (6:4, 5) among the Body of Christ.  From such withdraw thy- self, because we're talking about eternal truths and eternal souls!

If you were to die right now and God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" Could you now say with confidence based on the authority of the Word of God, Because Christ died "FOR" my sins!

Salvation is an extraordinary gift and hit home with me in a very personal way when I realized that Christ died for me a sinner! Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, God in his ultimate mercy sent His only begotten son to die on the criminals cross. Christ died my death and your death on the cross; the innocent dying for the guilty. Christ died for sinners 1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, The righteous dying for the unrighteous. The amazing thing is God did this while we were still at enmity with Him. Eph 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Men have given many gifts to each other down through
the ages, but in James 1:17 we read that "every good gift
and every perfect gift is from above," and comes to us from
God. The greatest of these gifts is our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ and the redemption He has purchased for us.
In speaking to the sinner-woman at Sychar’s well, our Lord
drew a picture, contrasting the barrenness of her own life
with the refreshing joy of salvation, saying:

"If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give Me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water... Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again, but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst..." (John 4:10-14).

By nature we are all sinners, but by the grace of God we
all may be saved.

"For the wages of sin is death, but THE GIFT OF GOD is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

"For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is THE GIFT OF GOD: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).

Thus St. Paul speaks of "the gift of the grace of God" (Eph.
3:7) and constantly emphasizes the fact that salvation is a
free gift.

But a gift is not possessed until it is accepted. Thus the
Apostle, in Rom. 5:17, refers to those who "RECEIVE abun-
dance of grace and of the gift of righteousness."

Those who receive Christ and the salvation He has
wrought for them, find it natural to exclaim with Paul-
"THANKS BE UNTO GOD FOR HIS UNSPEAKABLE
GIFT!" (II Cor. 9:15).

Many people have truly come to know Christ as Savior
after having been sincere, religious "church members" for
years. Though faithful supporters of some earthly church
organization they had never experienced the truth of II Cor.
5:17: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation." It is
possible to be a member in good standing of some church
organization, yet be outside of the one true Church of which
the Bible speaks.

This is because the true Bible Church is not an organiza-
tion but a living organism, a spiritual body, with a living
Head and living members. Again and again St. Paul, by
divine inspiration, calls the Church, the Body of Christ. He
says: "We being many, are one Body in Christ..." (Rom.
12:5). "Ye are the Body of Christ, and members in partic-
ular" (I Cor. 12:27). "We are members of His Body" (Eph.
5:30).

How do we become members of this true Bible Church,
the Body of Christ? First, we must acknowledge ourselves
to be sinners in God's sight, for Ephesians 2 relates how
Christ died for sinful men that He might "reconcile" them
to God "in one Body" by the cross (Ver. 16). Thus, when
believing sinners are reconciled to God by faith in Christ,
they are regenerated, given a new life, by the Spirit, and by
the Spirit are baptized into the Church, the Body of Christ.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (I Cor. 12:13).

Every one of us should ask himself: "Have I been bap-
tized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ?" If not, trust
Christ as your Savior and become a member of the one true
Bible Church. Then associate yourself with some local as-
sembly where Christ is honored and the Bible taught,
"rightly divided."

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love :)

Another Good Study, Thanks A4C

Brother Love :)

I realize the nine spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit are the subject of much debate. (I Cor. 12-14)
But to me they are the objective evidence of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.
The manifestations of these gifts in my experience is all the proof I need.

OK, thats good  ;D

good for what bro?

Brother Love :)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22,23).

The "fruit of the Spirit" is that combination of graces
evidenced in the lives of believers who "walk in the Spirit."

Let us never make the mistake of supposing that "the
Spirit," in Gal. 5:22,23, refers to "the spirit of man which is
in him" (I Cor. 2:11). It refers rather to the Holy Spirit, the
Spirit of God, who indwells believers. The spiritual virtues
listed above do not spring from any goodness in us, but from
the Spirit of God dwelling within.

Next, we should observe that these graces are not the
product of human effort. The passage above declares that
they are fruit, and fruit is the natural product of life and
growth. Indeed, "the fruit of the Spirit" is here contrasted
with "the works of the flesh" (Vers. 19-21), and these are all
bad!

Finally, it is a remarkable fact that the graces which the
Holy Spirit produces in yielded believers are certainly not
those which the world admires.

The world admires self-confidence, self-respect, self-made
men, intellectual prowess, personal magnetism, authority,
etc., while the Spirit produces "love, joy, peace, longsuffer-
ing, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance."
But consider the difference. A man may have self-
confidence, intellectual acumen, political or other power—
and he may still be very difficult to live with, but not so
with the virtues which the Spirit produces. Of those who
possess these graces the Apostle says: "Against such there
is no law."

Oh Brother Thank You and Amen!

Brother Love :)

How does a believer obtain this indwelling? One hears the word and believes. When does the Holy Spirit come to dwell within one? How does one know it is in him?

If the fruit of the spirit is because of the indwelling Holy Spirit working in one, then is the work of the flesh because of another kind of spirit working in one? Does one have any control of himself in Christ at all? Does any one have control of himself working in evil at all?

Why does one hear the good news of Jesus Christ and decide to accept Him and live accordingly? What is controling this choice decision? The Holy Spirit? Does one receive the Spirit before believing and it is the Spirit that causes belief and the life in Christ? Is there scripture for such a happening?

Can one not walk in the Spirit by just giving himself to God's word and being obedient to God?  Being God's and living accordingly is then walking in the Spirit?

Ollie,

Good questions..  the Bible answers all of them.


Not exactly, One hears the word and obeys.

If you go to Genesis 12, Abram was 75 years old when God appeared mto him, the first time, and told to depart to a place He would show him, here is the account;

1  ..............Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
2  And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4  So Abram departed,

God, made no promises, no covenant, nothing but I will make you agreat nation, and bless you, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in in you.   And all the scriptures say, is Abram departed.

Heb 11, says this;

8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

He obeyed God, not having yet believed Him, I believe it was simply trust, which Abram placed on the words of God.

The scriptures don't tell us, he believed God, until God appeared to him  again at Gen 15:1-6 ; verse 6  "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Acts 5
29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.  The Him is this verse refers to God the Father, from the previous verses.

This is a fuflfillment, of Deut 18:18-19, at the end of 19  .........I will require it of him.




From what Peter and the other Apostles at Acts 5, above tell us, it occurs when one obeys God,

What is it that must be obeyed??

Paul made it clear at Acts 17:30, that God commands every man everywhere to repent and to believe in Jesus, whom He raised from the dead and, has appointed to be the Judge of the living and the dead.


It is a personal, witness, which no man receives accept he whomsoever the Son will reveal.

Jhn 14
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

And;

Lk 10
21  ............I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. (Mat 11:27, Lk 10:22)  (Please note this verse; ".......whomsoever ther Son will reveal Him.", is speaking of the Father; the Son reveals the Father)


Verse 21, is speaking of grown men, that have to become as babes, that is to say, they must simply believe as children believe, what is told to them of things they know nothing about neither understand, they simply accept it as fact.
(this doen't mean babes are born without sin, it is simply speaking of natural charisteristic trait, all babes possess, before they begin to excersize the natural tendencies of of guile in lieing and sinning.

Conclusion;

Unless God the Father is revealed by the Son to a sinner, how can that sinner, obey the Father, or even hear His word spoken to him, by the Son.?

God Bless,
Petro

Quote from Petro,

"Ollie,"

"Good questions..  the Bible answers all of them.

"Not exactly, One hears the word and obeys."


Acts 5:28.  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
 29.  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
 30.  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
 31.  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
 32.  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Romans 6:17.  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
 18.  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Romans 10:15.  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 16.  [/b]But they have not all obeyed the gospel.[/b] For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
 17.  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


 Galatians 3:1.  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
 2.  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
 3.  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


 2 Thessalonians 1:7.  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
 8.  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 5:9.  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


1 Peter 3:1.  Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the
wives;


1 Peter 4:17.  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?



 



Thanks, for your thoughts and the scriptures.

I hope others will post some thoughts on my questions also.


Blessed is the one that God calls,
Love in Christ,
Ollie

Your welcome Ollie,

Nows, I will try to show how, one comes to obey; it is not, brought about by anything other than revelation of Gods Word to the sinner, and it ultimately is simply agreeing with God, that his word of truth., and this is what draws the confession, which produces the Faith by the Grace and Mercy of God, that He might get the Glory.

I am not sure if I can put all the scriptures together (some you will recognize, just by the words, these I won't spend time on) for these questions, since sometimes, I have other questions myself, when asking similar Q's, to myself.


It could be, for instance deception, can be of such a magnitude, that it deceives the person who believes they are of God, to the point that they believe they are led by his spirit,  and the things they do, they are doing God a service (such as Paul) when he killed and persecuted Christians, in the name of God. And how about those of Mt 7:21-23.

The works of the flesh are manifested according to  Gal 5:19-21;
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The next verse, gives the impression,  one can live in the spirit, but not walk in it, this is why it exhorts, those the live in the Spirit to also, Walk in ther Spirit.

25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


The Spirit empowers the believer to live a life glorifying God,  Rom 7, thru 8:14, Paul makes the case for, the choice being of those who are children of God.
They can live in the flesh, or be led by the Spirit.

God the Spirit working in the person, drawing them, to breakdown their resistance to the Gospel of Grace.

God who knows the heart of man, and knows the disposition of man's heart, and whether that heart is inclined to trust what the word of God, has to say about the sinfullness of the person, whom the Spirit is working to convict of sin, it is a process, whereby, the Spirit draws out of that person a confession, wherein, the person agrees with God's word, that all the things revealed to him, by the Spirit of truth about himself are true, this is done by revelation to revelation during this process, (just like it began with Abram, who first trusted God at his word, before he believed), the end being saving faith in Gods own sacrifice of his Lamb.

Man's willingnes to trust the truth of Gods word, leads man, to obey the coimmand to repent, he cannot uintil, God thre Spirit reveals to him, the hopeless state in which he finds himself, this can only be revaled to him by the Spirit and only when this man, agrees with God he is a sinner bound for an eternity in hell (separation from God), only then when this man sees this will he obey god's command, willingly, and surrender, then same Spirit giving him, the Faith, thru the operation of Grace, to believe in Jesus, whom God raised from the dead for his propitiation.

Some may call, agreeing with God, that thery are sinners, as a work, but it is only out of sinful pride, they would dare state it, but if they remember the hour of their conversion, and we could see it, it would be a different story, evidenced by their tears of repentance. And I tell you if there were no tears, them I would re examine myself. Because it is one thing to say, Jesus died for  sinners, but altogether a different matter, to understand He died for ME.

This is why, I have always, argued against free will, man does not have it, and the ability to decide, isn't to believe as much as to agree with the Word of God and what it has to say about them.


Eph 1
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

One cannot believe unless it is given them to believe (Phil1:29), and it is by Faith, one believes to the saving of the soul so,  according to these scriptures, the process which began when the Spirit began to draw you towards Him, ends when you are given to the Son, by the Father, and are sealed by the same Spirit which began the work in you, and who will continue, the work of conforming you to the image of His dear Son. (Rom 9:27-30)


You ask:
Can one not walk in the Spirit by just giving himself to God's word and being obedient to God?

Not sure what you are asking... Gal 5

16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8:14)

This then, is the work, which Christians produce,

Gal 6
3  For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4  But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another
5  For every man shall bear his own burden.

Here is the conclusion;

It stands to reason, that if Gods word is the truth of truths, and everything else are lies, then one can conclude, that when all arguing and excuses have been overcome by the truth, the sinner, who has been drawen, little by little to it, will come to the end of his rope of excuses and arguments, coming to that fork in the road, where one road leads to eternal life and the other to eternal damnation, and if the sinner is honest with himself (because this is really the nut of the matter)  he will agree with the truth of Gods word, and confess he is a sinner in need of repentance, and confess he is a sinner, who cannot do anything about his situation, and at that moment of truth, he throws himself at the mercy of God, who does not reject a repent sinner.

Rom 11
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The motivating factor in all this is that sinner is fear, since this sinner sees, the Sovereign Creator God as able to not only kill the body, but after having done this,  able to cast the soul and the body into hell. (Mat 10:28, Lk 12:4-5)

Blessings,

Petro

And finally, allow me this last word;

Obedience is always guided by one's conscience.

And this is what scripture says;

Remember that the sealing of the Holy Spirit, is that Baptism spoken of by John the Baptist (Jhn 1:33)

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



1 Pet 3
18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here is the example scripture gives us..

21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God Bless,

Petro

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9).

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" This statement contains more wisdom than the majority of mankind is willing to acknowledge. Man's wisdom says, "Know thyself," but God says no man can know what really lies within his heart.

History has proven that man, by nature, is depraved and every kind of wickedness dwells within his heart. Even when we think we are acting out of pure motives, many times we are not even aware of the lust that is within our heart, causing us to do what we are doing so as to obtain a hidden goal. If we were to print a word picture of man, I'm sure we would picture his good-nes. Yet, when God painted a word picture of man He showed anything but goodness. Notice what God says about man in Romans 1:24-32. We do not want to even read of these activities, much less acknowledge that these qualities lurk within our own hearts.

It is because of man's fallen nature, which was received from Adam, that we have these wicked characteristics within us, just waiting for an opportunity to express themselves. It is only the power of the New Nature, which we receive at the moment of salvation, that enables us to suppress these activities, as long as we walk in newness of life.

Paul says that our old nature was crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6) and then speaks of our need to "reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:11) We are to recognize that our old nature no longer has any authority over us so that we are free to "present our bodies a living sacrifice unto God" (Romans 12:1). This means to die to our selfish old self, allowing the Holy Spirit to motivate and direct our activities.

Scripture Reading:  11 Timothy 1:4


Our text for today makes it quite clear why Timothy was left in Ephesus: "That thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine." There was in Ephesus, as there will be in any Christ honoring church, efforts to promote false doctrine; to entice believers away from the truth.  With such there is to be no tolerance, but rather bold, outright confrontation.  Timothy was not to reason with the false teachers, nor was he to seek to establish a 'dialogue."  He was to charge them, that is, he was to give an authoritative commandment that the promotion of false doctrine must stop.

Many complain that such an approach to the ministry is narrow minded, and to that charge, faithful ministers of the Gospel must plead guilty. There is only "one faith" (Eph. 4:5).  If it is narrow minded to believe that God has spoken; if it is narrow minded to believe that God has given a distinctive message for the Dispensation of Grace; if it  is narrow minded to emphasize that we are expected to know what that message is; then let us all be narrow minded.

The reason many are unsettled regarding doctrine is that they do not understand where in the Bible doctrine is to be found.  Efforts to amalgamate the Kingdom to the Body and Law to Grace are futile.  Out of desperation, many determine that there are no absolutes anything goes.

When such an attitude is prevalent, the ministers of Satan thrive.  Paul warned the Corinthians of those who "corrupt"; the Galatians of those who "bewitch"; and the Colossians of those who "spoil."  Let us   also heed these warnings.

JON D. BEKEMEYER, Pastor


Brother Love :)

FAITHFULNESS TO OUR COMMISSION

In Paul's day, his "preaching of Jesus Christ according to
the revelation of the mystery" encountered opposition on
every hand. For faithfully proclaiming the glorious mes-
sage which had been committed to his trust, he was con-
stantly made to bear affliction and reproach. In one of his
earlier epistles we already find a long list of the perils and
persecutions he had by then been called upon to endure
(II Cor. 11:23-33) and this opposition, bitter and relentless,
continued throughout his ministry. In his last letter, writ-
ten from prison in Rome, he calls attention to the distinc-
tive character of his message, and adds:

"Wherein I suffer trouble as an evil doer, even unto bonds..."
(II Tim. 2:7-9).

The almost constant suffering to which the apostle of
grace was subjected naturally had its effect upon timid
souls. Some, who saw the truth and the glory of his mes-
sage, lacked the courage to stand with him in making it
known. Others, who had started with him were tempted
to and some did turn back. Of his first appearance before
Nero, the Apostle had to say:

"At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: pray God that it may not be laid to their charge" (II Tim. 4:16).

In the light of all this it is not strange that Paul should
write to Timothy:

"FOR GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; BUT OF
POWER, AND OF LOVE, AND OF A SOUND MIND.

"BE NOT THOU THEREFORE ASHAMED OF THE TESTIMONY OF
OUR LORD, NOR OF ME HIS PRISONER; BUT BE THOU PARTAKER
OF THE AFFLICTIONS OF THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE POWER OF GOD" (II Tim. 1:7,8).

By Pastor C.R. Stam


Brother Love :)

P.S. I thought of you Brothe A4C when I read this. Keep The Faith Brother.

Thanks Brother Love, you posted two GRRRRRRRRREAT messages.

Bro Lo0ve,


Ref your post;  

 2 Tim 1:4

"Our text for today makes it quite clear why Timothy was left in Ephesus: "That thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine." There was in Ephesus, as there will be in any Christ honoring church, efforts to promote false doctrine; to entice believers away from the truth."



I wonder, if this was the reason, the door, was closed at the church at, Laodicea, Rev 3:20??

Is it perhaps, that other doctrines were being taught, which caused them, to be lukewarm vs 16,  and they said they had need of nothing because they were rich and increased in good, sounds like a certain teaching promoted in these days.

That reminds me of "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," (2 Cor 6:17), and Jesus saying;

Rev 18
4  .....Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5  For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Good posts, Thanks

Petro

"And you, being dead in your sins...,hath He quickened together with Him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES" (Colossians 2:13).  And, by the same token, how could the neophyte student know that the "endure to the end" provision for salvation in Mark 13:13 refers only to the future tribulation period?  (ref. Revelations 20:4).  What blessed assurance is ours!  "For our citizenship is (present tense) in heaven."

Brother Love :)

Amen and your welcome Brother

Brother Love :)

 "For our citizenship is (present tense) in heaven."

Amen Brother Love

Amen A4C

Brother Love :)

THE END OF THE LAW-CURSE



Scripture Reading:  Romans 10:4


Those professing Christians who today live under the law, have failed to understand and/or accept the significance of Calvary.  Such was the condition in the church at Galatians when the apostle Paul was moved to upbraid them for their faithless behavior.  "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:  for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the things which are written in the book of the law to do them...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse FOR US:  for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:10,13).

The attempt to "follow Christ" by striving to emulate His earthly walk, is a totally futile effort.  He did not minister to us at that time, but to Israel.  And He said to them (the Jews) at that time, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law...I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." He was born under the law, He lived under total obedience to the law, He
ministered the law.  This is not the Christ that we know in this present dispensation of grace.  "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

When ministering to Israel, He admonished them, "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18).  But through the apostle Paul, the risen, heavenly seated Christ declared to the Church which is His Body, that He has "forgiven you all trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross" (Colossians 2:13, 14).

Like the foolish Galatians, untold numbers of Christians still labor under the law, thinking to please God.  But He has told us, "By GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:  NOT OF WORKS, lest any many should boast" (Ephesians 2:8, 9). "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

By PASTOR ROBERT HANNA

The answer to the question, "Am I Going to Heaven" is:


Rev. 14:12.  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Thank you Lord for calling the faithful to Your work through  the gospel of your son Jesus Christ..

Here in Rev 14, in its context;  is towards the end of the tribulation on the earth, many will turn to do the commandments of God, desiring to be saved, but as Galatians tells us, the end of the observance of the Commandments of God, are coming to Christ, for the Law of God, is our tutor who brings everyone to Christ, and when the law has done it's job, we are no longer under the law.. but, under Grace, (Gal 3:24)

To take one verse out of context as though to prove, man must obey the commandments to be saved, is being deceitfull, and to handle the word deceitfully, is to be dishonest..

2 Cor 4
4:1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfullybut by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.




Rev 14
9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
 
Understanding this well, will enlighten, them of  what the end of the commandments really is.


Jesus said;

13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Rom 4
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Obedience to Jesus's commandments, is not to obtain salvation, but to show gratitude by obedieance out of a good conscience towards God, for His Mercy and Grace.

While Rev 22, speaks of the tree of life, it is not by the keeping of the commandments, but by the doing of His commandments that these shall be be their authority to the tree of life;  .........quite a difference. (According to the Greek language)

God has commanded that they who are heirs, shall have a right to the tree of life.  

So it is not, what some try to teach and force upon the good Word of God.

For keeping the commandments can no flesh be justified in His sight, for the the commandments comes the knowledge of Sin.


Rev 2
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

1 Jhn 5
4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Conclusion;

Only by Faith can those who overcome the world are victorious, by  Faith in Jesus Christ, and ony these can keep his commandments, and they are not to obtain salvation, but they are evidence of already possessing salvation, in these earthen vessels, obedience to repent and be born again, gives every believer the authority to partake of the Tree of Life, because he is an heir, those who have obeyed.

This explains 1 Pet 1:22..

God Bless,

Petro

Thanks Petro, good teaching


Brother Love :)

One More Time Ollie

Like the foolish Galatians, untold numbers of Christians still labor under the law, thinking to please God.  But He has told us, "By GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:  NOT OF WORKS, lest any many should boast" (Ephesians 2:8, 9). "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

How blessed we are to live at a time when God's plan of
salvation has been fully revealed, and that we can now look
to the Lord Jesus Christ and exclaim with Paul: "He loved
me, and gave Himself for me!" (Gal. 2:20).

What Will Do It?

What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus! What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh precious is the flow. That makes me white as snow. No other fount I know Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Not water Not church attendance Not the Pope Not the law of Moses Not penance Not long prayers (or short ones either) Not turning from sin Not giving up booze Not doing good deeds Not Mary Not seed faith Not confession Not doing your best Not getting mad at me Not asking Jesus into your heart Not talking in tongues Not Benny Hinn Not the church Not Peter, James and John Did I say – Not water?? Not water!

Nothing but the blood of Jesus!!


By Pastor Doug Dodd S.B.G.

Matthew 7:21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Are you doing? If you are then the Lord says you shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Ollie,

You are twisting the scriptures again,

The will of God, is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance, those that don't will never see the Kingdom.

Jesus, said to Nicodemus,

I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God., never mind about entering it.


We know this because God has given to us the understanding to know this...because Jesus said;

Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Lk 8:10

How can you quote verses in their context whehn you leave out verses which are part ofm the passage , when trying to point out truth, one should always post verses whic haccompany  the verse referenced, notice verse 22, goes with verse 21.

22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Please note when this will be.

At Mat 25:34, "that day" is expounded upon by Jesus, when He speaks about the gathering of believers and unbelievers, depicted as the sheep and the goats. Verse 34 makes it plain the sheep inherit the Kingdom, spoken of at Mat 7.

Everyone of these did something, the sheep never even gave it much thought about what and to whom they did,  from their response to the Son of Man, the King (Vs 31,34), when he said to them, "You did it unto me"; their repsonse was;

37  .............. Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

The others did the same things (refer back to Mat 7:22), they even claimed to do, many wonderful works in thy name?

So what is the difference of what the sheep did, which caused them to inherit the Kingdom??

The answer is found in the word "inherit", your attention is invited to Titus 3:4-7, the heirs, inherit the kingdom.

How about Heb 6:17-18, or Rom 8:1-17..

Again, Ollie it is not in the doing of what you think needs to be done to enter into the kingdom, it is a matter of having done and having become an heir, thru the word of God, by Grace thru Faith.


Godf Bless

Petro
 

AAAAAAAAMEN Bro

Nothing but the blood of Jesus! And AAAAAAAMen111


Brother Love :)

Fruits of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22, 23;  Eph. 5:9

     But the fruit of the spirit is love, longsuffering, faith, joy, gentleness, meekness, peace, goodness, temperance, righteousness, and truth.
     The fruit is what is produced by you,  it is what YOU DO.  This is what we, as christians and believers, are to do, how we are to act.  Yes, God expects us to behave in a certain way.  It is a choice, a free will, to choose God and to live according to His Word.  Yes, we must give an account of everything we say and do on Judgement day, christians and sinners.

     You are an educated person, I can tell.  We must take all of the scriptures in the Bible and look at the Big Picture, not just pick and choose the ones that fit what we want to say.

                        Thank you, Robin

     

"looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity..." (Titus 2:13, 14).

Paul used the law of Moses and the prophets to persuade the Jews at Rome of Christ. Are todays Christians allowed to do this? Christ brought the law of Moses to fullfillment and gave us the perfect law of liberty. It is His law that heaven and earth is now under.  

Acts 28:17.  And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
 18.  Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
 19.  But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
 20.  For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
 21.  And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
 22.  But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
 23.  And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
 24.  And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.


Paul refers to the law of faith. Apparently there are still laws from God, but not the law which Christ fulfilled.

 Romans 3:19.  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
 20.  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 21.  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 22.  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 23.  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 24.  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 25.  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 26.  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 27.  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
 28.  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 29.  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
 30.  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 31.  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


 Romans 7:1.  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
 2.  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
 3.  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
 4.  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
 5.  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
 6.  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 7.  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
 8.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
 9.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
 10.  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
 11.  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 12.  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
 13.  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
 14.  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 15.  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
 16.  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
 17.  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
 18.  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
 19.  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
 20.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
 21.  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
 22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
 23.  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
 24.  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
 25.  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8

 Romans 8:1.  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 2.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3.  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 4.  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 5.  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 6.  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 8.  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9.  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 10.  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 11.  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 12.  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
 13.  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
 14.  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Christ has fulfilled "the law" given to the Israelites. It was a schoolmaster unto Christ and a shadow of things to come fulfilled in Christ. However there is law. The verses above point out some of them.

Ollie,

You keep, say the same things over and over (saved by grace thru faith, it is a gift of God and not oif yourself, etc etc.), but then interject, the doing and obeying in order to enter the kingdom, as though to teach, what began by faith thru Grace, must now be perfected by keeping, doing and obeying, otherwise one perishes,  like what the Galatians did.

Do you do this without understanding what it is you are doing, or is because you believe what you post?

Rom 5
16  .................but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

The "liberty" christians have in Christ Jesus, is one of unfathomable Grace, it abounds much more then sin, note:

Rom 5
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:



Blessings,

Petro

YES!!!!! Right On!

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love :)

DITTO ;D

By A4C


DO YOU BELIEVE?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Heb. 11:6




1. DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED HOLY WORD OF GOD?


YES [_] For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


NO [_] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


2. DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD?


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18


He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36


YES [_] NO [_]



3. DO YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE A SINNER?


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23


For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecclesiastes 7:20


Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Proverbs 20:9


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8


But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8


YES [_] NO [_]


4. DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN BE JUSTIFIED OF YOUR SINS BY DOING GOOD WORKS?


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9


And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5


Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:24


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5


YES [_] NO [_]



5. DO YOU BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) OF CHRIST?


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16


Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15:1-4






A. ALL YOUR SINS WERE PLACED UPON JESUS CHRIST.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21



For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18


B. JESUS CHRIST SHED HIS HOLY BLOOD UPON THE CROSS FOR YOUR SINS.


But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13


In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Colossians 1:14


And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:20


Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9


C. JESUS CHRIST DIED AND WENT TO HELL (THE GRAVE) PAYING THE PENALTY FOR YOUR SINS


He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31



D. JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD THE THIRD DAY WITHOUT YOUR SINS THAT HE BORE ON THE CROSS.



And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Corinthians 15:17


Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34


And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Colossians 2:13


Jesus said:


And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:23-24




DO YOU BELIEVE?


YES [_] NO [_]


Brother Love :)

HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL




Scripture Reading:  1 Corinthians 2:14, 15


"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Sprit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, be-cause  they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual discerneth all things, yet he himself is discerned of no man."

Only the Holy Spirit can interpret for us the Word of God, and the unregenerate does not have the Holy Spirit.  God reveals in His Holy Word all that He would have us to know.  But before  we can  understand,  we  must  first receive the gift of salvation by grace through faith.  We thus acquire the Holy Spirit as our interpreter.  No degree of human intellect can substitute  for the  Holy Spirit.   No level  of mortal esteem or code of morals or good intentions will qualify  as a  means to com-prehending the things of God.

Even some who are saved by God's grace unto life eternal may never become mature in the knowledge of the scriptures.  Salvation alone will not bring understanding.  The Holy Spirit interprets, but He does not force-feed.  There must be a willingness to learn, a desire to grow in the faith.  This is the problem that Paul had with the Corinthian church "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat:  for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (1 Cor.  3:1, 2).

We can offer instruction in the Word  of  God  but we  cannot compel the hearer to  compre-hend.  It is not our responsibility as ambassa-dors for Christ to over-power an audience, but to present the truth clearly and in love.  Conviction and submission are the work of the Holy Spirit.  Like our apostle himself, it is our responsibility to attempt to "Make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 3:9).  But only by way of expounding the truth;  discernment will be governed by the Holy Spirit alone.

Salvation is an extraordinary gift and hit home with me in a very personal way when I realized that Christ died for me a sinner!
 
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 God in his ultimate mercy sent His only begotten son to die on the criminals cross. Christ died my death and your death on the cross; the innocent dying for the guilty. Christ died for sinners
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
The righteous dying for the unrighteous. The amazing thing is God did this while we were still at enmity with Him.
Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
 

God who is rich in mercy gave us the greatest gift we will ever receive.
 
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 All we have to do is accept this free gift and we will be saved.
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30)
 asked the Phillipian jailer. He was simply told
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)
 There is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It is not wages to be earned but the free gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

No amount of good works or church traditions can save you. If you try to approach God and present your own righteousness
 
( Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;)
 as a basis for salvation, He will not accept it. What we present to God as righteous He views as filthy rags.
Isa 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Salvation is for eternity. Once your saved you can not lose your salvation. Otherwise it wouldn't be salvation but probation .
 
Romans 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:22-23 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When man dies he will either experience eternal condemnation or eternal life. The choice is yours. Simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and that He died on the cross for your sins and you will be assured of eternal life.


Brother Love :)

AAAAAAAAMEN Brother Love Amen

What do you think?

Is Paul all he claimed to be? The bible indicates that he is. Paul writes in his defense the following : 1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

What do you learn from Paul? 1. We have a completed revelation of God to man. 2. We understand that eternal life is a free gift not of works of any kind. 3. We learn that Israel IS set aside. 4. We learn that the Body Of Christ is God's agency today. 5. We learn not to live our lives based on the circumstances around us. 6. We learn to rightly divide the word of truth. 7. We learn total and complete forgiveness. 8. We learn the true value of the cross. 9. We learn of the pretribulational rapture of the church. 10. We learn that the law is a curse not a blessing. 11. We learn that the religion of the world is a religion of works. 12. We learn that if anyone, without exception, teaches any other gospel than the gospel of grace, they are under the curse of God.

So.. what do think? (See above verse before inserting foot into mouth - ed.)

Posted By Brother Love :)

what do I think? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN

ollie,  

sigh........

Faith in Jesus, is given to them that repent.

God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

One must see himself as a sinner dead in sin and tresspass, before he can repent, with no options, it is at this point the Spirit of God, makes the blood Jesus shed at the cross,  a reality to sinners, so that when God grants repentance, the blood shed at the alter not made with human hands,  is imputed (to count for, or assigned to account of another [Psa 32:2, Rom 4:8]) to the sinners debt, and the gift of the  grace of  God, thru the faith of the sinner, is able toreceive the gift of eternal life.

This all happens, once and forevere, when God the Spirit seals the believer.

You keep, bring up after the fact, that this or that must be done, in order to obtain salvation, in the end;

as thou, one is working his way to slavation which is the reward in the end.

Isn't this the point you keep making with the verses you keep coming back to:  Rev 3:20, Rev 14:12, and your shpeal herein about obedience to God.

While this is true, obedience to God, after being sealed by the Spirit, is not erased because of disobedience.

The obedience spoken of in the verses you bring up are not about salvation, that issue is resolved once and forever when the faith given is placed in the finished works of Jesus at the cross.

What you failed to see in Rev 14:12, is that the commandments of God, lead all who are taught by them, to Jesus, who is the end of the Law to them that believe, so, they ,the saints that are spoken of herein,  keep the commandmnets of God by all of his children, willingly, but it has nothing to do, about needing to keep them, to be saved, since they are already saved..and the matter is resolved.

You seem to really have a problem understanding this very point.

You deny that you believe in a works faith gosple, but you keep trying to teach one.

Am I wrong??


Petro

Good teaching Brother Petro

Brother Love :)

I didnt vote in your choices because I am going to heaven not based on any of those things you posted.  I am going to heaven because I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life. I now live for Him and He has sealed me to eternal life through the Holy Spirit.....

AAAAAAAAAMEN Suzie

Amen Sister

Brother Love :)

Whew! What a discussion!
First off, let me just remind a couple of folks, are you loving each other in this forum? Are you bringing glory to God? Pray over your posts!
Praise God for saving us. We are not all learned scholars. The work that we are to do is to believe in Jesus Christ. His yoke is light! If we believe in Him, He will do a good work in us! It's a wonderful thing and one of the mysteries of God, that He can use this stubborn people to bring glory to Himself. Let's not get too bogged down in arguing over the finer points. If you have understanding, praise God for revealing it to you through the Holy Spirit! Let us believe, and let us WORK as we press on toward the common goal; let us run the race! Yes, let us do good works! Praise God! The works won't save us, Jesus will! When we are saved, works are the natural consequence! :D Faith without works is dead! If you have no works, do you really have faith? Look inward! If you have faith, then show it! But don't put your faith in faith! Put faith in Him! Sorry for all the exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm excited about Jesus!
Love and blessings to all!

Thanks lizmom ;D

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa1.html#Q2

Question: If certain groups, who call themselves Christian, are mixing law and grace, yet still believe that Jesus Christ died for them and rose from the dead, aren't they still saved, even with their mixing of law and grace?"

Answer: The key is, do they really believe they are saved by grace through faith in the gospel of grace without works? If so, then they are saved. Now some groups believe they have to be baptized, or that they must not work on Sunday, or that they must perform certain good deeds or rituals etc. If they know that those works have nothing to do with their salvation, then they are saved (through faith alone, without an ounce of works). But on the other hand, if they do believe that doing this or that is required for their salvation (as many groups and denominations teach) in addition to their faith, then that is mixing faith and works. It is telling Jesus Christ, "No Lord, your death was insufficient." That is not faith in the gospel, and I see no scriptural reason to think that such a person would be saved. The doctrine known as Lordship salvation makes this error in a subtle way. Saying that one must make Jesus Christ "Lord of your life" to truly be saved is really saying that you must add at least a little works to your faith in order to be saved. That is tainting the gospel. Salvation is by the grace of God alone through faith alone. See Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith does not equal works, but rather, faith is belief. So among those who mix the dispensations of Law and Grace there are some who are saved (if they keep the works out of salvation), but many who are lost.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa1.html#Q2

Amen A4C! Good quote and who cares who wrote it, it's truth!

Amen

Brother Love :)

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

I’ve skimmed through this thread and I’ve viewed many of the posts. I might have missed a person or two but so far all I’ve heard is works gospels.
The closest one not having a works gospel is lizmom. She recognized that it is a work to believe on Jesus Christ.
Her Quote:
Praise God for saving us. We are not all learned scholars. The work that we are to do is to believe in Jesus Christ.
She is right God saves us. We have nothing to do with it. Are we saved by keeping Gods commandments? We are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Why is it that not every one becomes saved. What separates us. Two brothers raised in the same home one becomes saved the other does not. Why, is one smarter, wiser, or more humble? Why does one come to salvation and the other does not?
The answer is the heart. Mans heart is totally corrupt. Absolutely no one has a heart that is able to truly believe.

Genesis 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
 
Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But God in His mercy has chosen to save some people. So He gives us a heart that will believe on Jesus. We become saved when God gives us a new heart.


Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

To believe is a work. Faith is a work.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Believing and faith are results of salvation

But doesnt Scripture tell us that God desires for all to be saved? (1Tim 2:4) Not that He has chosen some to be saved.

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace which we now stand." Romans 5:1-2

This goes to the word “all”. I’m going to copy and paste something I wrote elsewhere:
__________________________________________________________________________ ________
One reason why so many misunderstand these verses is because of the word “all” that is used.
In the bible the word “all” can refer to all people or it can refer to all of a certain group of people.
For instance, to every one:

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

And references to a limited group of people:

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

This cannot be ALL of the people of Judaea, there would have been close to two million people there at that time.  Certainly not all of the Pharisees and Sadducees would have been there.
Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon on this:

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?  "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
_____________________________________________________________________
Jesus could have spoken openly to the people but He chose to speak in parables:

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Does this sound like He wants all to be saved?

2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Why would God send strong delusion if He wanted all to be saved.
Remember in the book of Mark the paralytic man. His friends lowered him down from the roof so Jesus could heal him of his illness. But what did The Lord do, He forgave him of his sins! He never asked for that.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
 
True God never wanted anyone to go to hell but that is where everyone would go. We are so totally lost we can not do anything to save ourselves. Gods salvation is a rescue.
How would a baby believe?

I believe that God is speaking about all people when He states He desires for all to be saved.

Not all will be saved however, because He has made allowance for this. He has allowed us to choose Him or not.

Those as in 2Thessalonians 2:10refused to love the truth
and they will experience the consequences

If God desired all to be saved He could do that, He is all powerful. The "all" talked about is ALL the elect. From ALL races and ALL nations, ALL sorts of different kinds of people.
He did not desire that any should go to hell, but every one would unless He saves (rescues) them.
Did "all the land of Judaea" become baptized by John the Baptist?
Or only certain people?

"Salvation So Simple”
Psalms 3:8
By – Connie Spivey
http://www.voy.com/24596/10.html

Salvation is so simple but to a lot of people it is hard to understand, so they can’t believe salvation is free for them! They don’t realize that they can be saved, just by believing. They feel like they should do something to save themselves. In other words pride always believes that everyone has something good in him or her. Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him (Christ) the iniquity of us all. But John 5:24 says Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hearth my word and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but is passed from death unto life. That verse says to us we cannot do anything to help save ourselves! Isaiah 64:6, but we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind have taken us away. I am not comparing us with monkeys at all, just making an illustration. I understand the way they capture monkeys in Africa; they put something that the monkey likes to eat in a jar that is large enough at the top so they can put their hand into the jar. But it will not come back through the top of the jar! So the monkey will not let go of the food, so he holds on to it! That way, they are trapped and all they have to do is let go of it and pull out their hand. But the jars are fastened down so they capture them and they loose their freedom. That is the way a lot of people are, they will not let go of their own works and so they are trapped by the Devil, and hang on to their works instead of being set free. They can trust the Lord for their free Salvation by accepting the work that Christ did on the Cross-when He died for their sins. He paid the sin debt and it cost God His son, but it is free and did not cost us anything!

Yes, God could make everyone saved. He could also make everyone worship only Him.  However, then it wouldnt be a choice anymore would it. To allow for us to choose, God had to allow for us not to choose. He provides a means for all to be saved, however, there will be those who rebel and not repent.

Every commandment God gives us to perform is a work. To believe is a work:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The reason a baby cannot believe is because it is a work.
Babies are saved because God changes their heart.
The reason those who have never heard of Christ cannot believe is because it is a work.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

All sorts of people who have lived on this earth have never heard of Christ. If salvation is based on our believing then they have a legitimate claim that sending them to Hell would be unfair.
Even the devils believe:

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Believing is often confused with having an intellectual understanding as to who Jesus is. People think their salvation is based on believing intellectually who Jesus is and so they rest on their work. We are only truly saved when we are “born again”. That is something we cannot do. Just as we contributed nothing to our first birth we can contribute nothing to our second birth.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

How can a baby believe?
Alzheimer’s or an accident can render an extremely intelligent and competent person into a helpless human unable to make any kind of decision at all. They would be living and condemned to hell unless they made their freewill decision before their illness. What an awful state to be in!
The mentally retarded sin just like the rest of us, how would a severely retarded individual make this decision?

Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

God has to open our understanding.
I’m going to repeat this question:
How can a baby believe?

I would gander a guess that you believe baptism is essential for salvation as well. You are from the Church of Christ theology which teaches works to gain salvation.

Very much the opposite. I believe there are NO WORKS that we can do to get our selves saved.
To believe is a work, and thus a result of salvation.
That is why I asked the question:
How can a baby believe?
That is why I brought up the idea taught by Jesus that we must be born again.
When we are born again we become a completely different kind of a person from what we were before.
To be born again means our heart has been changed. Our heart is totally corrupt and will even deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We become saved when God changes our heart. It is entirely His work:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

YOU SAID

"To believe is a work. Faith is a work."

However we are justified by faith we are not saved and then attain faith. We believe and are saved. We are not saved and then believe.

How can a baby believe?

Two brothers attend church together one becomes saved and the other does not.
Why?
Is the one that believes smarter, or more humble, what seperates the two?
The one that believes can boast because he is able to believe and others cannot.
Believing is a work. If salvation is based on believing then it is a works gospel.

How can a baby believe?

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8–9)

Grace is all that God is free to do for mankind on the basis of the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Faith is a nonmeritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority, veracity, and ability of God to provide salvation. Grace is the gift of salvation; faith is the means. The object of faith, our Lord Jesus Christ, has all the merit. As Jesus Christ hung between heaven and earth, God the Father imputed our sins to Him and judged them.
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross. (1 Pet. 2:24a)
Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin and spiritual death. He became our substitute.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf [as our substitute], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)
Because of the work of Jesus Christ, salvation is available to everyone.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved," (Acts 16:31a)

Can a baby believe? I dont know, can it?
If two people attend church and one is saved and the other isnt, it isnt about who is better. It is about one who hears the Gospel and repents, believing in Jesus. God gives us salvation as a gift. We dont earn it, or deserve it. But we are saved by faith through grace. God calls all of us, but not all will come to know Him as Lord and Savior.

suzie
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross. (1 Pet. 2:24a)
Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin and spiritual death. He became our substitute.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf [as our substitute], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)

I agree with you on all of the above statements.

Because of the work of Jesus Christ, salvation is available to everyone.

Neither your salvation plan nor mine makes salvation available to every one.
By your gospel salvation is dependent on believing. All sorts of people have lived on this earth and have never heard of Jesus. Therefore it is impossible for them to believe.
Paul said:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

By my gospel Jesus only paid for the sins of those who would become saved. Once the price was paid it can never be paid again. So if He paid for everyone’s sin  then even those who do not accept Him would not have to go to hell. That is not possible.
We must be born again before we can truly believe.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus also stated that believing was because of Gods work:
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The problem is the heart. Mans heart is unable to truly believe. Mans heart is totally corrupt. We become saved when God gives us a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can a baby believe? I dont know, can it?

I’ve raised four children - NO.
That is the problem with a gospel where believing is a requirement. Babies cannot be saved with such a gospel.
On the other hand if it is God who does the saving then babies can become saved, in fact John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb.
Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Just my 2 cents:
I think we are saved by grace of God, who causes us to believe, so that we can be saved. It's kind of thinking in a circle, but I don't think we can ever fully grasp the meaning of our salvation (till we get to heaven). God knew we were going to be saved before we were born, so it was His doing, not ours. However, He has said numerous times to believe and be saved. It's a paradox, but God doesn't contradict Himself. It's no easier to understand salvation than it is to understand the Trinity. My preacher used to say we were always saved, we are fully saved, and we will be saved. Past, present, and future. Something to think about.

Good message Brother, thanks for posting it

Brother Love :)

YES! Amen

Christ died"FOR"our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3) Past, Present and Future.

Brother Love :)

If you pick and choose verses of scripture you can come up with all sorts of gospels. Even reincarnationists use the bible.
Believing is a work. That is why Paul said people could not believe until they had hear about Jesus:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus said it was Gods work that we believe:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In other words it is up to God to save us and the result of our salvation is believing.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils believe, are they saved? Of course not.
We are commanded to believe:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

If our salvation is based on our keeping Gods commandments then once again that would be a work.
And how about that idea of confessing with our mouth and believing in our heart:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For many people their entire belief that they are saved revolves around this verse of scripture. To truly believe we need a complete change of heart. This verse has a companion verse elsewhere to explain it:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Notice that it is God that does the work.
This relationship between the two verses is similar to the relationship found in many verses of the bible. A good example is found in Deuteronomy 10:

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Are we supposed to perform open heart surgery on ourselves? We can’t cut the sin nature out of our heart. Only God can do that, so he gives us the solution:  

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

What is circumcision? It is keeping the commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 7:19  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

In our pride we like to think we have some control over our destiny. There is a little bit of a control freak in all of us.
For those of you that believe salvation is based on our believing --- WHAT HAPPENS TO A BABY IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO DIE?

lizmom,

I see that we are on the same page, and thank you for your sharing..the truth of scripture.

Left Coast,

Thank you very much for sharing these scriptures, I have shared this herein many times over and over, to scoffers.

May I now add, one verse which will, hopefully make clear to some, that even to believein Jesus,  is given by God thru grace; otherwise how can anyone believe in what they have rejected all their lives.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I makes the time spent sharing this very truth, not to be a waste of time, even if one understands, how helpless one is, before coming to faith in Christ.

It is questionable, if anyone that does not understands this truth, whether they have come to the truth.

Some even would claim they have and will save themselves and will keep themselves saved by keeping this commandment or that one.

I even had one person here, confront his helplessness, with rantings about not being able to play a part in  anything about his situation, thats how decevied the Evil one has people, even those claiming the name of the Lord.

Keep 'um coming. The truth will not be held back, when given in power by the Spirit.

God Bless,

Petro

As for, your question;

"WHAT HAPPENS TO A BABY IF IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO DIE? "

Such a question cannot be answered rationally by those who hold to a carnal belief system.

Their answer is simply baptize them; yet the Word of God, states emphatically,

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why it best not to even ask such a question.

We know, that the judge of all the earth will do what is right.

So that the answer to this lies with what God has done, and not what man does.


Blessings,

Petro

If believing is a requirement for salvation than all babies would go to hell. But they do not. David said he would see his son again, but his son could not come to him he would go to his son.

If salvation is a result of our believing I would like to know how babies become saved. Is there another salvation plan for babies and others who are incapable of believing.
I don't know why you would not want to ask that question.
I've had four children I hope some day in the not too distant future to have grandchildren. It eases a parents mind to know their baby wouldn't go to hell, if something should happen, just because the baby was to young to believe.
C.H.Spurgeon did not dodge the question:
"By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way." (C.H.Spurgeon from the sermon Infant Salvation)
He not only didn't dodge the question he wrote an entire sermon about it.

That is interesting ..there are lots of sermons by lots of preachers that say lots of things.

However, that doesnt make them all right, does it?

Do babies sin? How do we become sinners?

Say suzie,

you wouldn't be the old she bear, would you??

You remind me of her posts, kind of tenaicious, and always ignoring what is written for her own edification.

She put forth her own ideas, kind of prided herself in being vociferous, as I remember claiming..

However they  never made them  right, either..


Sinners are born dead in sin.  I suppose you don't believe this scripture (not an idea) either.  (1 Cor 25:22)


Petro
 

Left Coast,

I like CH Spurgeon, and he certainly preached the true word.

The subject concerning babies and there death an salvation, is not within the realm of mans ability to comprehend, it certasinly is something Christians should leave at the feet of Him whom we have to with.

Since it is God who elects and predestinates, and it depends on His Sovreignty, we can only speculate, the fact is we can speak affirmitively of that which we understand, and that is, that they are born altogether in sin, there is no such thing as
"age of accountability" with God.

And since he is sovereign and brings his plan into fruition without consulting flesh and blood, whether He saves some or all, it is not something we should speculate on.

The fact is David, spoke of the child at;

2 Sam 12
23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

He never said he would see, the child, he simply spoke of the grave.

David did shed some light on this matter, when he said;

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 51:5


Believeing parents are a benefit to their children, for by their parents faith they are sanctified by the Lord, even the unbelieving wife or husband. (1 Cor 15:14)

Since the just live by faith, it is the faith of believeing parents in God's nature, that comforts them, they know and understand this matter is out of their hands, and is in the realm of God the judge of all the earth and Him alone.

I don't sidestep issues, I simply try to avoid, giving the impression to the unlearned that God kills babies, He doesn't, we know they are born dead because of Adams transgression.

Blessings, Petro

 

I’ve said this before I had four babies :-*--- You bet they sin.
Think about this, is anger a sin, jealousy, greed, covetness, you know the sins babies do.
But don’t take my word for it, take a look at the bible.
Before we become saved we are counted among the wicked.

 Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
 Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Unfortunately we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born.
I feel that one of the greatest sins committed in churches is putting children in a nursery away from the saving word of God.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus rebuked the disciples for not allowing the children to come close to Him.

Mark 10:13  And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
Mark 10:14  But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Gods kingdom is made up of all sorts of people, all ages, all colors, all levels mental ability, and both sexes.
John the Baptist was six months in the womb when Mary came to his home pregnant with the Lord. John leaped for joy, meaning he became saved.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

I don’t know where the idea came from that David was talking about the grave.
I always thought that he quit his fast and did not morn because he knew he would see his son in heaven.
David knew the gospel.
Psalms 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Babies are in the spiritual state of innocence because they don't know right from wrong.

We become sinners through breaking the Law (1 John 3:4).

Paul said, "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law" (Rom 7:7).

Romans 3:20: "For through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Romans 5:13: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no Law."

"To one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

Left Coast,

I don't disagree with your position, I disagree with your  "thought that David quit his fast and did not morn because he knew he would see, his son in heaven"

You interject the word see, where it is not written so.

It is a good thought, but the fact is it is not clear, David, simply said "I will go to him, but he shall not return to me"

David certainly believed God, the child in my opinion was sanctified, this can be said for sure, he was innocent of his fathers sin, God had another reason for "striking the child".

I find it compelling that God doesn't kill people for no reason, if this child was indeed saved; Why did the Lord strike him, that he should die?? (2 Sam 12:13-15,

It is clear the Lord struck him, because of David's trangression.  It is preplexing..I must say.

Was the blood (which ran through the childs veins from  David) of the child what counted for the remission of Davids sin??

There is a bigger story here, after this baby's death, Solomon was born to both David and Bathsheba, who goes on to inherit the throne, whom the Lord will re establish on the earth during His millenial reign.

This little story, reminds me of the story of Esau and Jacob, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.(Rom 9:13)

Isaac believed God, and yet, here God hated one and loved the other, before either had done good or bad.

It is a mystery, to me...

Petro

I would really like more time to study these verses in depth. But that could take years.
However I don’t think you are on the right track. It could be that I just don’t understand you. For instance to be lead by God and free choice are contradictions. Or were you saying God leads us to steal by our free choice. I doubt that is what you meant so it is probably my failure to understand you.
I usually write everything into my word program and then let it spell check for me as I am slightly ydslexic and I speel  ;D  poorly also. Plus my fingers often hit mnore than one key.  
When we be come saved we receive the Holy Ghost. It dwells within us.

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now if you blaspheme your very salvation where does that put you?
The candlestick represents churches, not Gods eternal church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), but rather the corporal churches.

Revelation 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
I will have to chew on your word for awhile.  

suzi
With experience with 4 children I know babies know right from wrong.
When a baby is doing something wrong and you stand up, they will run away from what they are doing. And if it is very wrong they will run away holding the back of their diaper. They know the swat is coming.
And according to:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Babies break the law.  They are estranged from God.
This is hard to deal with but it is the word of God.
Yes we know sin through the law and a parent should teach their child that law.
“Mommy I want, I want, gimmy, gimmy.” Greed, covetness, etc.
Now I’ve got to go I’ve got an appointment with my son.  

Does God Send Babies To Hell?

Berean Bible Church - Edgewater, Florida

The Church That Preaches What The Bible Teaches

There seems to be some discussion among the "brethren" regarding the eternal destiny of infants.

I, for one, disagree with the theory that God sends babies to hell, as we shall see.

The argument as I have heard it goes like this:

all have sinned
sinners end up in hell fire
we are sinners from birth
sin must be judged
so all sinners go to hell
It is a very logical argument but even logic must give way to the scriptures. Many in answering this thesis would use the "age of accountability" argument and in some arenas that would suffice. However the real question here is not of AGE but of UNDERSTANDING.

To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age. But let us hasten to the scriptures and answer the question, "Does God impute sin where there is no understanding of sin or of God?"

God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because they did not have enough understanding to reject God. -- Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where understanding is being developed. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right or wrong and are there fore not culpable. Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now, here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev 20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their lack of understanding?
Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is necessary for redemption. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
We could go on and on but that would belabor the point. We will close therefore with this: James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Gen 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes, HE will!!


By Pastor Doug Dodd s.b.g.

In the islands of the South Pacific when people were sexual swingers they did not know it was a sin, therefore that would not be subject to judgment. Since they had never heard of Jesus there was no sin on believing on him ether.
I got a speeding ticket because I didn’t know that the speed had been lowered.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense in America. The above quote by Doug Dodd sounds very pleasing but it is false.
Concerning Deuteronomy 1:39--- The nation of Israel time and time again rebelled against God, the children were not old enough to be one of the decision makers for the nation therefore God was not going to punish them for the sins of their nation. If there is an age of accountability it would be 20:
 
Concerning atonement money, paying for atonement:
Exodus 30:14  Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

We can come up with all sorts of gospels if we isolate various verses of scripture. Pastor Dodd is using Deuteronomy 1:39 out of context.

Isaiah 7:16 again is out of context. It is very much parabolic language dealing with the birth of Christ. And Christ was the only person since Adam who was born with no sin in him. Verse 14 …a virgin shall conceive, and bare a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.  

And to hand a Calvinist Romans 9 is like pitching a baseball right down the middle to Barry Bonds. You should have walked me. ;D
If there is any book of the bible that I would recommend someone reading over and over again, until it sinks in, it is Romans 9.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God chose to save Jacob before they were born to prove his salvation plan was one of ELECTION not works.
I was not talking about unborn children God says we go astray as soon as we are born not before we are born.

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
Not by our will. If your salvation is based on your freewill decision look at this verse again.
This really should be more on babies so I won’t take the bait and go further. I could do pages and pages on Romans 9.
I am sorry but Pastor Doug needs to do a little more homework.
The Bible is very clear on this:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.
If you have another understanding of Psalm 58 I am open to learn.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

What is a suckling? God does judge babies. Do you have another understanding? What is it?
One note C. H. Spurgeon believed that God saved all babies by election. I am in disagreement with him on this issue. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what he is talking about. I hold that same position on Pastor Dodd, I really don’t know anything about him.

Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.

 Obeying God's law and commandments
 Doing your best
 Living a good life
 Good works
 Tithing, or giving money to the church
 Church membership or attendance
 Water baptism
 Holy communion


Explanation

If you picked one or more of the above items, you failed the test. Don't feel badly though, most people do fail. Most are to some degree"religious", but religions are nothing more than man-made attempts to reach God.

The real answer of how to get to Heaven is not found in some religious system or by man's self-righteousness. God has declared that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10). "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23).

Further, God's Word teaches that sin is a very serious matter. II Thessalonians 1:9 tells of "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

What can you do about your sin problem ? Can you clean up your life, do good works and hope that in the end your good works will outweigh your bad works ? NO! Salvation does not come to those who work for it, but to those who cease from their own works, placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5 makes that point abundantly clear: "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "In Ephesians 2:8 & 9, it is declared, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

The issue is not what you can do for God, but what He has done for you. "But God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). "He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21). You have no righteousness of your own. To have eternal life you must have the righteousness of Christ (see Romans 3:26).

What then is your responsibility? God has given you a free will to either accept or reject what He has done for you. To have God's righteousness, you must believe that "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried; and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (I Corinthians 15:3, 4).

Your response to the gospel should be as we read of the Ephesians: "In Whom (the Lord Jesus Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13). This seal is a guarantee that your salvation is eternal--you can never lose it (see Ephesians 1:14, 4:30, IICorinthians 1:22).

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)
 
 
 

1.  In one triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be both God and man.

2.  That Jesus Christ identified himself in written form in the Holy Bible as God and that one can only believe that  by choice - faith. The Bible cannot be clearly understood unless that choice is made. (1 Cor. 2:14)

3.  I believe that the only gospel to be preached for man's salvation today is the Gospel of Grace which is:


I Corinthians 15:3-4  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.



Ephesians 2:8-9   For by  grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.


4.  That once that choice to believe is made, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and places him/her into the church which is HIS BODY (Eph. 1:22,23) and seals them unto the redemption of their physical bodies to the receipt of their glorified bodies with which they will live (and serve) eternally in heaven. This is called the doctrine of eternal security.  (Eph. 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:49-53)

5.  I believe what the Bible teaches about religion; that God instituted only one religion - the religion of Israel - and is no longer dealing with mankind on the basis of that religion because Israel was unwilling to recognize her Messiah King, incurring God's wrath (to come) upon her during the Great Tribulation, prophesied and still to come.  God has put that program aside (Rom. 11:25) and is dealing with man on the basis of a mystery plan He conceived and kept hidden in himself (before the foundation of the world) until the right time, called "due time."  (1 Tim. 2:6)

6.  I believe, therefore, that God has given us the Apostle Paul's epistles for our doctrine, to live by until he calls His Body out of the earth.  We believe that the Bible clearly teaches a catching up or a rapture of the church (the true church) and that God's only religion (of the Jewish nation) will THEN be restored.  That "kingdom come, on earth" will then be the program God will use to deal with mankind on the earth.

7.  I believe in the inerrancy of the entire  Bible and in God's ability to keep his promise to preserve his words (Ps. 12:6,7); that they therefore exist for us English speaking people today in the Authorized Version which is known as the King James Version.

8.  That while the whole Bible is written FOR us, only the Apostle Paul's epistles are written TO us - for our learning and obedience. We understand and believe that we need to study the whole of God's word in order to understand the distinctiveness of God's program and dealings with mankind, therefore knowing where to get our doctrine for today; where to find out and become a part of what God is doing today.

9.  That the "commission" for the Body of Christ is to be Ambassadors of the Mystery Message of the Grace of God "reconciling us" to God, as given to the Apostle Pauland recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.  We have compared, studied, learned and understand that this commission is not the same as the commission given to the twelve apostles when Christ was on the earth and that we are to be obedient to "the faith" of the message given to the Gentiles by the RISEN LORD Jesus Christ from Heaven.  (Romans 15:26)

petro
I want to answer your question before we get to far away from it.
If one of my children died and he was not saved I would mourn. I still mourn for my parents. Wonderful people but unless God saved them on their death bed they will not be in heaven.
David did not mourn.

2 Samuel 12:21  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2 Samuel 12:2  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me

I think that there is a spiritual lesson in this passage related to fasting that I want to explore in a minute.
He would not have quit weeping if his son was in the grave.
On the other hand he said he would go to his son.
When a believer dies his spiritual body goes to be with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We also have a very misunderstood verse of scripture:

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice that these are the souls of the saved. The mark on the forehead denotes what their thoughts were on. The stumbling stone for many is the thousand years. Notice it doesn’t say reigned on earth. These are the believers who have died through out the ages.
Of course the question is: How can that be since all sorts of Christians have been with Christ longer than a thousand years. Numbers are words and all of the words of the bible are subject to interpretation. We have a key to understanding this word in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In a nut shell, when we are with the Lord we are no longer in time. We will be with the Lord for the fullness of Gods time. And that is all that the thousand year stuff is about. Gods time. God doesn’t always use words like we think He should as you’ll see when we go into fasting.
Because someone who is saved goes to be with the Lord. And because David didn’t mourn. I think I am on solid ground to say David believed he would see his son.

Now about fasting.
Jesus removed a devil from a child and his disciples asked why they were not able to do it. Jesus answered:

Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

This verse was left out of the N.I.V. because the translators didn’t think it made sense to go without food to remove a devil. It was one of the main reasons why they chose to use the older texts. It is my belief that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they were not used. They weren’t used because they weren’t accurate. It seems more reasonable to me that a scribe made an error. Maybe he was new, maybe he was old, may be he was careless. Maybe he had to hurry and decided since he didn’t understand some verses so he left them out, there is probably a thousand (pun intended) reasons why these older texts were inaccurate. But I think it is much more reasonable than some body trusted added to the bible. If you’re going to add something why would you add something like that?
God gives His definition of fasting.

Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
On a spiritual level once someone dies the gospel is of no use to them. So once his son died David quit fasting. It is a historical parable.    

Believing on Christ
Calling on the Lord
By faith


None of the above works will get you saved. Any gospel that requires work would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. Believing, calling, obeying, and faith are a result of salvation.
You cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born again. How do you get yourself born?

If you make a choice you are doing a work. That is why you need an age of accountability. Babies can not do that work, and even if there was an age of accountability (there isn’t) the fact that babies could not choose and could not believe is proof that it is a work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.

If You must choose than it is of yourself by definition.

We have already covered a lot of this earlier Here is an excerpt from my reply #273:
Believing is a work. That is why Paul said people could not believe until they had hear about Jesus:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus said it was Gods work that we believe:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
You have a works gospel Ambassador.

Thank A4C, Amen

Brother Love :)

Left Coast,

One can only speculate, concerning this matter.

I accept the verses you have shared, and I do not believe in this "age of accountability" teachi9ng it is not biblical, I have made this perfectly clear, that God saves every child is not biblical either, for the following reasons;

1.  There is two seed lines the corruped seed, and the incorruptable seed. And only the Sower knows and can tell the one from the other.

2.  It is clear, God hated Esau, but loved Jacob, before either had done good or evil.  What is intere4sting are these words which follow in the passage:

Rom 9
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Did not Pharaoh, perish; God raised him up for this purpose He says, herein;  

If Pharaoh would have died as a baby, would he have been saved??, or........ would he not have been saved??

3. If you believe what David believed, he understood he was a sinner, shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin (Psa 51:5)

How about;

Psa 58
3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;


4. God knoweth them that are His. (2 Tim 2:19)

5. God, He is sovereign..He will do what is right, and only He knows what is right..because He knows the end from the begining.

All those whom He has predestinated from before the foundations of the world, will be counted in roll of the living.....whose mnames are written into the Book..

The matter rests with God, not with our intellect...or our understanding.

I don't concern myself in trying to figure what David's mindset or what he was thinking or what he knew concerning the child that died, whom God had stricken.

I is clear to me, he understood God killed the child in place of his own life for the sins commited in causing the death of Uria and that of coveting Batsheba, (2 Sam 12:13), this is clear to me since, David never offered up an animal sacrifice, for remission of these sins to God, note the wording at verse 13;

The LORD also hath put away thy sin; when confronted by Nathan the prophet.

This reminds me, of the covering God provided for Adam and Eves transgression at the Garden.

You can pretend to speak for God, but as for me, I leave these issues, which are not clear to Him, in do time He will make known these mysteries.

I say, we don't know, whether God saves all babies or not; what we do know is that the just shall live by faith, unto faith, knowing that He will in the end do justice, afterall the offenses, which are deserving of death are against Him, and not us.. and He knows who is or isn't deserving of death.


Petro

Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift.

Brother Love :)

The Conversion of the Philippian Jailor (Part 1 of 2)

"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

" And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

" And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

" But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

" Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

" And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

" And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

" And they spake unto him the Word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house." -Acts 16:25-32  

A MAGNIFICENT TESTIMONY

What are these sounds at midnight? Praying! Singing!

Strange! Can it be coming from the dungeon where the two latest prisoners were cast? They cannot even kneel; their feet are fast in stocks. And sing? Why, only a few hours ago they were brutally beaten with rods and thrown into the dungeon, their backs pitifully bruised and bleeding from "many stripes."

Of course, they cannot sleep-but how can they be praying and singing under such circumstances and in such a place? Yet it must be they we hear, for they are the ones who have been going about telling people about salvation through Christ.

How strange and wonderful it sounds! Until now these walls have heard only groans, curses and vile outbursts: now they are hearing prayers and songs!

What a testimony Paul and Silas bore for Christ that midnight! Though deeply wronged and in physical misery, faith and joy overflowed as they prayed and sang hymns (Gr. humneo) to God. They were far from bitter. In their suffering, and not knowing how long they would be confined to this horrible dungeon or what test they might have to face next, they poured out their hearts in prayer to God, calling upon Him for strength and help.

And somehow He seemed closer to them now, rather than farther away, so that they burst out in one song of praise after another, coming from hearts overflowing with peace and joy. "And the prisoners were listening."["The prisoners heard them" is not strong enough. They listened, deeply impressed by what they heard.]

Their consciences were clear and their hearts right with God-and more, like the apostles in Jerusalem in their persecutions, they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41). Indeed, in a truer sense than they, Paul was the apostle of the rejected Christ, filling up that which still remained of His afflictions for His Body's sake (Col. 1:24). Thus he later wrote to the saints in this very city:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake;

" Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me" (Phil. 1:29,30).

Yes, and the apostle went farther than that, expressing to them his longing to know Christ more intimately in "the fellowship of His sufferings" (Phil. 3:10).

This was the joy that filled and overflowed the hearts of Paul and Silas in that dark prison cell.

And suddenly, as they prayed and sang, there was an earthquake, so violent that it shook the foundations of the prison. "And immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed" Wer. 26).

Surely this was a divine intervention. What if history does bear witness that earthquakes were frequent in that vicinity at that time, it would still be a miracle that one should take place just then and do just that-including even the loosing of every one's bands! This last unquestionably bears the stamp of the miraculous. Those who deny this have argued that an earthquake, besides loosening the doors, might well have broken loose the bolts that fastened the prisoners' chains to the walls. But what of the other ends? It says "every one's bands were loosed," not merely loosed from the walls. Moreover Paul and Silas had had their feet fast in stocks!

And now the jailor awakens to find all the doors of the prison open and naturally supposes that the prisoners have fled. It is well-known how these Roman keepers were made responsible with their lives for the prisoners entrusted to them (see 12:19), hence it is not strange to find the Philippian jailor, in his distress, drawing his sword to take his life. Suicide, he thinks, is better than disgrace and a cruel execution.

But somehow Paul found out or sensed that the jailor was about to take his life and cried aloud from the darkness: "Do thyself no harm: for we are all here" (Ver. 28). To the jailor this must have seemed amazingly humane after the rough treatment he had given Paul and Silas, yet it was one of the natural fruits of the gospel they had been proclaiming.

But what power had kept all the prisoners in their cells? We are distinctly told that "all the doors were opened--" and "every one's bands were loosed" (Ver. 26). Why did no one flee? We believe it was what they heard as Paul and Silas prayed and sang hymns, for what must have been the reaction in the heathen heart and mind to such conduct! How could they help associating the earthquake with it?

By now the jailor, so narrowly saved from committing suicide, was completely overwhelmed. Calling for lights (plural, probably torches) he "sprang in" and "came trembling" and "fell down" before Paul and Silas. So great was his reverence for them now that he did not even speak until he had "brought them out" of the dungeon. Then he asked the great question which may already have been troubling him and now had suddenly taken possession of his heart and mind. Addressing them as "Sirs" (Gr., Curiol, Lords) he entreats: "What must I do to be saved?" (Ver. 30).

The Conversion of the Philippian Jailor (Part 2 of 2)


WHAT DID THE JAILOR MEAN?

It has been argued by some that the jailor had physical deliverance rather than the salvation of his soul in mind when he asked this question, but the evidence unites to prove that this is not so.

1. Paul and Silas had been pointed out for "many days" in Philippi as men who proclaimed "the way of salvation" (Ver. 17,18).

2. The earthquake was over. He could hardly be seeking "salvation" from that.

3. None of the prisoners had escaped, so his life need no longer be in danger from that source. Indeed, the jailor seems to have taken no immediate steps to resecure the prisoners, either because his attendants (Ver. 29) saw to this, or because the salvation of his soul was now his supreme concern. God may also have used the circumstances to cause the prisoners to stay. At any rate, had he feared Roman judgment now, his first concern would have been to make certain no prisoner would escape.

4. The earthquake, the open prison doors, the neglect of the prisoners to do that which would have insured his ruin, Paul's solicitude for his life when he was about to commit suicide; all this would tend to make him seek more than physical deliverance.

5. Paul and Silas evidently took the jailor to mean that he sought salvation from sin. They would not have promised physical deliverance in return for faith in Christ.

6. The tender solicitude of the converted jailor toward the men he had so abused, and his joy when he "with all his house," did believe, would seem to indicate that he had been under conviction of sin.

7. The references to the jailor's "house" in connection with both Paul's reply and the jailor's conversion (Vers. 31,32,33,34) harmonize with the cases of Cornelius (11:14) and Lydia (16:15) where salvation from sin was certainly in question.

How ready the apostles were with just the answer the jailor needed! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Ver. 31). This is the core of the message of grace.

When "the people" had asked John the Baptist: "What shall we do then?" he had insisted upon the fruits of repentance and of the kingdom (Luke 3:911). When a lawyer had asked our Lord: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the Lord had asked him: "What is written in the law?" and had instructed him: "This do, and thou shalt live" (Luke 10:25-28). When Peter's convicted hearers at Pentecost had asked: "What shall we do?" Peter had directed them to "repent and be baptized ... for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:37,38). But now, under Paul, the clear, pointed message is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." No matter what your sin, no matter what your ignorance, no matter what your fears about "holding on"--"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Whether to the child, with a lifetime of opportunity before him, or to the dying man with only a few moments to live, the message is still: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

The added words: "and thy house," have sometimes been taken as a promise that the faith of one member of the family secures the salvation of the whole family. If this were so all the world would of course be saved, for we are all related, but the apostle did not mean this, nor is this teaching found anywhere in the Pauline epistles. The meaning is simply: "This goes for your household too. They, as well as you, may believe and be saved."

But while the apostles came right to the point in answer to the jailor's inquiry, they did not stop there, as some evangelists and soul-winners do today. Still sick and sore, they preached "the Word of the Lord" to the jailor and to the members of his household, who had by now gathered round (Ver. 32).

Soon enough the jailor showed evidence that he had sincerely trusted Christ as his Savior, for "the same hour of the night" he took them to still another place, where water was available, and there the once brutal jailor tenderly washed their stripes. We are not told what he said when he did this, but we suspect there were many words of regret and apology.

By C. R. Stam

Reprinted from the Berean Searchlight, the official organ of the Berean Bible Society, Volume LVI Number 5

Used By Permission
 
 

I BELIEVE...

1.  In one triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be both God and man.

2.  That Jesus Christ identified himself in written form in the Holy Bible as God and that one can only believe that  by choice - faith. The Bible cannot be clearly understood unless that choice is made. (1 Cor. 2:14)

3.  I believe that the only gospel to be preached for man's salvation today is the Gospel of Grace which is:


I Corinthians 15:3-4  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.



Ephesians 2:8-9  For by  grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.


4.  That once that choice to believe is made, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and places him/her into the church which is HIS BODY (Eph. 1:22,23) and seals them unto the redemption of their physical bodies to the receipt of their glorified bodies with which they will live (and serve) eternally in heaven. This is called the doctrine of eternal security.  (Eph. 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:49-53)

5.  I believe what the Bible teaches about religion; that God instituted only one religion - the religion of Israel - and is no longer dealing with mankind on the basis of that religion because Israel was unwilling to recognize her Messiah King, incurring God's wrath (to come) upon her during the Great Tribulation, prophesied and still to come.  God has put that program aside (Rom. 11:25) and is dealing with man on the basis of a mystery plan He conceived and kept hidden in himself (before the foundation of the world) until the right time, called "due time."  (1 Tim. 2:6)

6.  I believe, therefore, that God has given us the Apostle Paul's epistles for our doctrine, to live by until he calls His Body out of the earth.  We believe that the Bible clearly teaches a catching up or a rapture of the church (the true church) and that God's only religion (of the Jewish nation) will THEN be restored.  That "kingdom come, on earth" will then be the program God will use to deal with mankind on the earth.

7.  I believe in the inerrancy of the entire  Bible and in God's ability to keep his promise to preserve his words (Ps. 12:6,7); that they therefore exist for us English speaking people today in the Authorized Version which is known as the King James Version.

8.  That while the whole Bible is written FOR us, only the Apostle Paul's epistles are written TO us - for our learning and obedience. We understand and believe that we need to study the whole of God's word in order to understand the distinctiveness of God's program and dealings with mankind, therefore knowing where to get our doctrine for today; where to find out and become a part of what God is doing today.

9.  That the "commission" for the Body of Christ is to be Ambassadors of the Mystery Message of the Grace of God "reconciling us" to God, as given to the Apostle Pauland recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.  We have compared, studied, learned and understand that this commission is not the same as the commission given to the twelve apostles when Christ was on the earth and that we are to be obedient to "the faith" of the message given to the Gentiles by the RISEN LORD Jesus Christ from Heaven.  (Romans 15:26)

Have A GRRRRRREAT Day ;D

Here is a study you need to read...

Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS
By - Dee L. McCroskey

TURN to Mark chapter sixteen, the last six verses, and you will find a series of divine statements that rank among the most ravaged, and the most twisted and turned, of all Bible truths. Listening to the confusion over this passage, with some modern religionists insisting on water salvation and others claiming miraculous powers and wonders, one in reminded of the sign often seen over an iron-works door: “All kinds of twisting and turning done here.”
Some of these followings, such as the Campbellites, only go as far as verse 16 before their imaginations run out. So they run for the baptism tank to get saved, as they think, but decline to presume the powers and wonders of verse 17. But their more imaginative cousins, such as the common variety of Pentecostalist, get a far a verse 17. They lay claim to the talking in tongues mentioned here, but concede that something has gone amiss with their faith, so that they are not prepared to get serious about the snakes and poison in verse 18. The climax is finally reached, however, by the ultra fanatics, who go on to verse 18, drink poison, take rattle snakes into the pulpit with them and land in the hospital.
But what about these Scriptures in Mark sixteen? Here, as in all similar Scriptures, we must “rightly divide” the Word. (Memorize 2. Timothy 2:15 and 1. Corinthians 10:32. They are key Scriptures.) To understand such Scriptures as Mark sixteen, the very first thing is to determine who it is to whom the Lord is speaking. Is it His earthly people, Israel. or to the Gentiles, or to His Church? This is the first step in rightly dividing the Word, for God deals differently with each of these three companies . Not that we would abandon any Scripture, for Romans 15:4 says that whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that is, for application. But not all Scriptures were written directly to us. Let us be sure we are clear on that point, and we will be spared from error and confusion.
We will find the answer to our first question here in the 14th verse of Mark 16. It gives us the speaker and the ones spoken to. It says: “Afterward He appeared UNTO THE ELEVEN as they sat at meat.”
Here it is plainly not His church of today, but the little company of Hebrew disciples, representative of the Jewish remnant. It could not possibly have been to the church, for His church was not brought into existence until after His ascension to glory.
Then He tells them in verse 15: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” These were the marching orders for the Jewish remnant of that day. The parallel passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptizing and teaching nations. It looks forward to the time when “all power” will be given the Lord Jesus Christ, when He will come to judge the nations on earth and to set up His kingdom. But this passage in Mark is purely local, to the remnant of the time, as we see in the 20th verse. “They were soon dispersed and preached in all parts of the civilized world.

The Campbellites and their Water

Now we come to the much abused 16th verse, the special delight of the Campbellites (the so-called “Christian church” and the so-called “Church of Christ.”)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” By wresting this verse out of its proper place, and doing the same to their other favorite one, Acts 2:38, the Campbellites preachers insist that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Their error is serious, for it denies the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and adds some puny work of man. The Scripture says, “Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9).
I will give $1000.00 dollars to the first person who will show me one single verse of Scripture that plainly says a man will be damned if he is not baptized with water. This is not done in the spirit of gambling, but simply that it would easily be worth that to me to be set right if I am wrong. This offer still holds. If the Campbellite preacher be right let them step forth with such a Scripture.
Mark 16:16, even when wrested out of its Jewish setting and erroneously used as church truth, does not say that “he that is baptized not shall be damned.” The Spirit is very careful here to say only that “he that believeth not shall be damned.” That holds good in any age. Men always have to be saved by faith, and always will be. Because this Scripture was for the Jews of the dispersion, and water baptism was in order for them, as well as signs and wonders, it was needful for them to demonstrate true repentance by water immersion. But as far as salvation was concerned, believing on Christ was the essential thing.
This is proven by the repentant thief of the cross. He was not baptized, but he believed on the Lord, and acknowledged Him as Lord, and he went to glory with the Lord. The argument that he was unable to get baptized is weak and without any foundation in the Scriptures. “Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to His mercy He saved Us” (Titus 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9).
A group of young Campbellite seminary students once attended a Bible meeting in Eugene, Oregon. With characteristic assumption of infallability they seized the first opportunity to project their doctrine of salvation by immersion. They were asked: “What about the case of a man who is convicted of his sins at a meeting and receives the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour, but on the way home he meets with an accident and is killed? What becomes of him?” The young men shook their head sadly and said: “It would be too bad; he should have gotten baptized immediately!” Thus as 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, the cross of Christ is “made of none effect.”
Now we come to the 17th verse in Mark 16, the favorite of the Pentecostal following. But they overlook one word, the work “shall.”
“And these signs SHALL follow them that believe: in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.”
The awkward part here is that these miraculous signs SHALL follow them that believe, and he that believeth not shall be damned. It would, then, be very bad for any professed believer who could not talk in tongues if this Scripture were for today. It would prove that he had not yet attained a saving belief. But this is not all. In the 18th verse we find even more starling signs, which Christ said SHALL follow them
that believe:

Snakes and Poison

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
Most of the professing miracle workers of today know that these signs DO NOT follow them. They know what a rattlesnakes will do to them, and they know what a dose of strychnine will do. And as for healing the sick, if it would really work they would be in constant demand everywhere. So they fall back on this weak and beggarly argument: “I believe a person could do these things if he had faith enough, and besides, I wouldn’t want to temp God by taking up a serpent or drinking poison unless necessary.”
But when is it every necessary, in the normal course of life, to take up serpents or drink poison? Note that these are “signs,” not antidotes to be used in case of accident. A “sign” was a demonstration to be put on, for the sake of those who looked on, that the Word might be confirmed. Nor was anything said about degrees of faith. The Lord guaranteed that these signs would follow them that believed. As Paul said, the Jews require a sign and God gave them signs.
“They went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD with signs following” (verse 20). Here we have the reason for all the miraculous gifts in apostolic days. The New Testament was only in the making and in lieu of His finished Word, God gave miraculous powers to His servants so as to confirm their divine authority. This kind of elementary confirmation came to an end with Acts 28:28, with the final turning to the Gentiles. The Word is completed now, and it is the only divine authority the man of faith needs.
The apostolic period when the Word was being compiled, and confirmed by signs, is covered by the book of Acts. “The very signs spoken of in Mark are fulfilled in the book of Acts. In the eight chapter of Acts, for instance, we read of Philip casting out devils, healing the lane and the palsied, and of the people believing and being baptized. In Acts 28:3 Paul is bitten by a venomous snake but suffered no ill effect, and proceeding to lay hands on the sick and heal them.
But today we have what Peter calls “present truth” for our guidance. This “present truth” is found in the church epistles, written by the Apostle Paul. One thing emphatically stressed in these Epistles, is that salvation is obtained by faith alone, faith in the finished work of Christ upon the cross. “I do not frustrate the grace on God.” writes Paul. If any works of ours are added to His glorious, atoning work on the cross, then Christ has died in vain. God’s way for the sinner is given us in Romans 10:9.
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

“Speaking the Truth in Love”

Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS

Now thats some real meat to chew on, thanks A4C

Brother Love :)

From: The Two Minutes With The Bible daily devotional

HEAVEN -- AND WHO WILL GO THERE

Most people are surprised when they learn that the Old
Testament, though three times as large as the New, does
not contain one single promise about going to heaven. God’s
people, in Old Testament times, looked forward to a glori-
fied earth, with Messiah as its Ruler.

This was so even when our Lord was on earth and con-
tinued to be so through Pentecost. Peter, addressing his
kinsmen just after Pentecost, said in essence: "Repent, and
God will send Jesus down here" (See Acts 3:19-20), but
Paul, in his epistles, says by divine inspiration: "Believe,
and God will take you up there."

This apostle of grace teaches us that God has already
given believers in Christ a position and "all spiritual bless-
ings" in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:4-6; 1:3). And he
teaches further that at the close of this dispensation of
grace "the dead in Christ shall rise" and "we which are
alive and remain shall be caught up together ...to meet the
Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes.
4:16,17).

Thus it is that Paul, God’s special apostle for our day,
declares that "our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven"
(Phil. 3:20) and writes of "the hope which is laid up for you
in heaven" (Col. 1:5). Thus it is that he encourages per-
secuted saints, saying: "Ye...took joyfully the spoiling of
your goods, knowing...that ye have in heaven a better and
an enduring substance" (Heb. 10:34). And thus he writes
even of death:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dis-
solved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens" (II Cor. 5:1).

"...to die is gain....to depart and to be with Christ...is far
better" (Phil. 1:21,23).

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Tongues:

One is born again when the Holy Spirit comes to live IN them; the speaking in tongues was given when the Holy Spirit came UPON them, as in Acts 2. And this, when He came UPON them, was to anoint them for service. They had already been born again. See John 20.22.
I went to a service once at a church in Seattle where they taught this same thing about not saved unless you speak in tongues. They were 'teaching' people how to speak in tongues. I had to go outside to talk to God. Needless to say, I did not go to Casey Treat's church again.
Yours in Christ. Roy.

I also attended a church as a guest where they spoke in tongues. I also had to go outside. I wanted to stand up and scream

Mark 13:22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Many years earlier I witnessed almost the exact thing when Elizabeth Prophet spoke for the ascended masters.
I don't question that it is often supernatural.

2 Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

To add to my previous reply, so there is no misunderstanding.

I was not speaking against speaking in tongues. Only those that say you are not saved if you have not done so.
After the Holy Spirit came upon me, (6 years after being a born again Christian), I began to speak in tongues. (though at that moment I did not know what it was; only that God was touching me).
I pray in tongues often when I am in my prayer closet with the Lord. But to say one is not saved if this has not taken place in their life is an outright lie.
I know I am BOLDLY saying something again, but this is a lie that must be spoken against. I think that a good portion of Christians have never spoken in tongues, and to tell them they are not saved because of this cannot go without the truth being clarified.

God's blessing upon us all.  Roy.

I would get on my knees and plead with God to have mercy.
Tongues ended when the bible was finished.
It cannot come from God, but Satan is more than willing.

YES!!! Tongues ended with the completion of the Word of God (The Bible)

Brother Love :)

Another case of someone having their own set belief about  a certain topic. That is O.K. with me.
Paul speaks about how tongues are to be used, both in our closet, and in the church. His teachings suffice for me. Others may reject his teachings, or not. This is not a topic I will debate, for I find those who feel as the last 2 replies said are pretty much adamant about it.

Love to you all.  Roy.

The best information I have seen clearing up tongues is on another forum. http://www.botcw.com/talk/showthread.php?s=2543e4f0d099b61a64f977631307aceb&threadid=5514&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
This is absolutely a good post. Royo I hope you read it.

Thus while His death my sins displays

In all its blackest hue,

Such is the mystery of grace,

It seals my pardon  too!

Brother Love :)

jtb
Since when the bible was finished it was no longer necessary to bring revelation God ended that gift.
We now have everything we need. Why do you need more? Trust in God. HE has completed His word and given it to us.
Where do your dreams and visions come from? If you speak in tongues, where does this come from? Does it come from God? Or does it come from your own mind?
If it comes from God then by definition it is the word of God.
You better run around all over you might miss something important. God is speaking through all sorts of people. NOT.
What if God said He was going to take everyone to heaven that met on Mount Fuji the third Saturday of the year. You sure wouldn’t want to miss THAT would you?
We really don’t have to worry about that because God sealed the bible.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:21  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Amen. So be it.
None of the books of the bible stand alone. ALL scripture is God breathed. There are those that argue Rev. 22 only relates to Revelation. But everything that God has revealed gives us understanding of the rest of His word.
All sorts of groups go off following certain individuals that claim God has given them special information.
The book of Mormon was ‘new’ information. But can they find evidence of the great cities that were supposed to have existed? No.
The SDA Church believes Ellen G. White has new information even though it is easy to show God did not give her new information. If it was from God it would be accurate. According to Ellen the population should have decreased, it went up, A LOT.
According to Ellen tea will poison your system. WRONG. Black tea is beneficial, Green tea is better, and white tea is very, very good for you.
The list goes on and on about so called divinely guided prophets.

Matthew 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Do you sacrifice animals? Do you go to Jerusalem every year? Doesn’t God command us to do that?
What do you do on the new moon?
All of these things ended with Christ.
As did the Sabbath.
You pleaded with me twice for my E-Mail address. After I showed you how you could see that God changed the Sabbath day. I gave you detailed directions on how to do that. I gave you the many verses as they are properly translated in Young’s Literal Translation.
I e-mailed you a very simple question:

O.K. John
Why did God word Matthew 28:1 the way He did.
You e-mailed me back:
I will get back with you 'i' promise! No real excuses, but it is five in the morning here, and i have had about 4 hrs. nite'y nite time! (smile) And still have several messages to read. And then when this old man see daylight? (best say sunset, huh?) i have 3 ac. to go mow.

That was Sept. 1, over two weeks ago.
Young’s properly translates Mat. 28:1

Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

You don’t need to e-mail me. The answer should be very easy for you.  However I haven’t had one seventh day worshipper answer this.
Just as the Sabbath day was fulfilled in Christ; dreams, visions, and tongues ended with the completion of the bible.
You don’t want to obey Matthew 28:1 so it is not likely you will obey Rev. 22 either.
Tell me do you really think if someone slipped you some deadly poison you wouldn’t die?    
 
Mark 16:17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Speaking of the ceasing of certain spiritual gifts;

1 Cor 12
8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Really depends on how one interprets vs 10, and what is "perfect", that should come. Jesus is perfect and He had already come, the Spirit of God which is perefect was already come and actively working in the world by this time, the word which God had put in the mouth of Jesus, had been spoken and it was perfect, there is nothing pointing to the Word needing to be written by men to perfect anything.

But the the individuals who make up Gods body, are being perfected, and as yet the body is not perfect, in the sense that it is not complete, and since this is God the Sp[irits work, mHe still labors to this day, perfecting the body of Christ, adding to it all who are ordained to receive eternal life.

Some say when the completed word of God, was published, that is to say put into wrtitng, is the perfection spoken of at vs 10.

However, how does this square up, with the Word itself, in that the Bible promises not that the word would be written in books or paper but in the hearts of men, in accordance with the covenant.

The house of Israel, is not just the natural seed of Abraham.

Heb 8
10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


2 Cor 3
3:1  Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2  Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

And speaking of Jesus;

Heb 10
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The book of 1 Corthians, was written before the book of Acts, and what is interesting is that many christians today, live lives as though they are not children of God, in some cases, while speaking with them, we wonder if they are really what they claim to be.

I say that the perfect referenced above refers to christians, the children of God, who although saved, have not come into perfection, in the real sense of the word.

Note this verse;

Lk 6
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42  Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
43  For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44  For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47  Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:
48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49  But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Those who are made perfect in Christ, do His words. This is the real test, do we really need the bible, to do good??

Blessings,

(http://www.fci.crossnet.se/images/battlealreadywon.jpg)


Brother Love :)

Amen Brother Love, the Battle is already won.

Thank You Jesus

(http://www.geocities.com/adelaidegrace/cface_03.gif)

Brother Love :)

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. . . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. . . . For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:6,8,10

Brother Love :)

Amen Brother, one of my favorites

CAN GOD SAVE ME EVEN AFTER THE THINGS I HAVE DONE?



Answer: Yes, God will give eternal life to anyone that believes the gospel message that Jesus Christ died for their sins and was raised from the dead.

Many people are worried that they have committed sins that are so bad or have lived in such an evil way that they could never be saved.  Some  people believe that there are sins that are unpardonable and if they commit such an act they are beyond forgive-ness.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ's death was sufficient to pay the penalty for any sin we commit.  The verses in scripture that teach about the power of Christ's death and God's  forgiveness of sins are clear: Christ's death paid for all the sins of everyone.

People often think that certain sins are worse than others and therefore, it takes more for God to be able to forgive them.  From a human perspective it is true that certain sins are more serious.  People make this distinc-tion because we are forced to live with the consequences of sin, therefore we consider certain sins worse than others because some have greater consequences.  For example, a murder takes away a human life, a much more serious consequence than someone that steals a small  amount of money.  Therefore, because of the varying results of peoples' sinful behavior it is necessary for humans to have varying degrees of punishment.

From God's perspective sin is any act, thought or attitude which opposes His per-fect Will.  Because God is completely right-eous and holy He must punish anything that goes against His nature.  Likewise, when God sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay for our sins, His death was a perfect sacrifice.  It satisfied the righteous demands of God's justice.  To say that Christ's death cannot save us is to say that what he did on the cross was somehow insufficient and lacking in power.  Yet the Bible tells us that Christ's death was a perfect sacrifice, able to pay the penalty for all our sin.

One of many examples in the Bible of some-one that received eternal life despite having committed serious sins is Paul the Apostle.  Before becoming a Christian his name was Saul and he was one of the greatest persecu-tors of the believers in Jesus.  In 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul said, "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- of whom I am the worst." Clearly Paul believed that Christ's death was sufficient to save anyone.

Please read the following verses:  1 John 2:1-2; 1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 9:14; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Romans 3:21-24.
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Posted By Ambassador4Christ for Brother Love

AMEN!!!!!

CAN GOD SAVE ME EVEN AFTER THE THINGS I HAVE DONE?



Answer: Yes, God will give eternal life to anyone that believes the gospel message that Jesus Christ died for their sins and was raised from the dead.

And AMEN!!!!!

Brother Love :)

The gospel of salvation from the penalty of sin - Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice. All who believe on Him are justified on the basis of His shed blood (Rom. 3:24-28, 5:8-9). People today are saved by grace through faith alone, and at the moment of salvation are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are eternally secure (Eph. 1:11-14, 2:8-9).

The lost, the unsaved, will suffer eternal damnation as payment for their sins (Rom. 2:1-11, 6:23; Eph. 5:6; II Thes. 1:7-9; Rev. 20:11-15, 21:8).

Grace & Peace

The Lord said to the sinful woman in Luke 7:50
"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
He didn't say:

"Your faith has started you down the path toward initial justification. Arrange for a baptism, through which you'll attain the forgiveness of sins, after which you can maintain and increase your justification by participating in other sacraments, working in your church, doing deeds of kindness, and avoiding mortal sins. After a lifetime of this work, you will at last attain eternal life."

How many millions of souls have been deceived by false gospels that take people's eyes off of Christ crucified (1 Corinthians 1:23-24, 2:2, Galatians 6:14)? Salvation through works creates fear and despair. It denies the sufficiency of Christ's finished work. It takes glory from God that belongs only to Him. It makes salvation unjust rather than just (Romans 3:26), since it makes the gospel a revelation of men's righteousness, not God's (Romans 1:17). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in Christ and His finished work, His righteousness:

The world is  divided into 2 camps on the doctrine of salvation.

One camp believes and teaches that salvation depends in some way upon the works of man. This is the camp of Cain, the first person ever to believe the heresy of salvation by human effort.

The second camp is that of Abel and it believes in salvation completely by the grace of God through the work of Christ.

Salvation by grace and salvation by works divide the religious world. The Bible, however, only supports one of these positions. Not salvation by works, but salvation by grace.

People are saved when they believe, even before being water baptized (Acts 10:44-48), even while they're ungodly and not working (Romans 4:5-6). This salvation through believing response to the word of God is not an exception to a rule, but is the rule! (John 5:24, Acts 19:2, Romans 4:16, 10:10, Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Peter 1:23-25). Paul uses Abraham, an unbaptized man whose works of faith in obedience to God were not a means of salvation (Romans 4:10-11), as the example of how everybody is saved (Romans 4:16). Abraham was saved through faith alone. So is every other person who is saved, as a child of Abraham, who is "the father of us all" in regard to salvation (Romans 4:16).

We will be judged by works;
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

But WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Jhn 6:29   Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.  
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." Titus 3:5
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Hbr 4:10   For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.  11   Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.  

I am going to heaven because Jesus Christ has purchased me with his blood. He was the only one worthy to be a sacrifice for me. I did nothing to gain my salvation and I can do nothing to keep it. God looks at me and sees the righteousness of Christ. He has declared me not guilty.

SonofAslan:

Your statements above are partially true and partially false.

1. To begin with, you have a fundamentally flawed understand of salvation, particularly what Christ has done for sinful mankind, and why justification before God [that the believer is "declared righteous" by God and before God] has always been and always will be TOTALLY APART FROM WORKS. Just read the 11th chapter of Hebrews.

2. To understand James 2:24 you must first read Romans chapters 2 through 5 in their entirety.  Paul fully expounds the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in this lengthy portion of Scripture, yet you have not even alluded to it.  So how should we interpret James 2:24? By first reading the entire portion of Romans (as well as the entire epistle to the Galatians) and then the entire second chapter of James.

What James is saying is simply this: Those of you who claim that you have been saved by grace through faith must also live out your faith by doing those things which demonstrate that you have a living faith, not "dead orthodoxy".  Abraham proved that his faith was genuine by simply obeying God and willingly sacrificing His son Isaac.  Therefore Christian, prove your faith by sacrificing those things which you dearly loved as a sinner, and do the things which please God (such as feeding a destitute brother or sister ungrudgingly).

These "good works" won't save you BUT PROVE THAT YOU ARE SAVED,  since God has ordained all believers to "good works" (Eph. 2:8-10). James is writing under the guidance of the Holy spirit [just as Paul wrote] so neither apostle contradicts the other. Paul teaches the very same thing in Eph. 2:8-10.

3. Your understanding of the word "Protestant" is incorrect.  Those who teach justification by faith are not just "Protestants", but all Bible-believing Christians ( and many would not call themselves "Protestants".  In fact, the mainline Protestant denominations have largely departed from the faith, and preach another gospel.

4. It would be futile to discuss the proper interpretation of the other Scriptures you have quoted, until and unless you are willing to agree with God's Word that salvation [more specifically justification] is by grace through faith and faith alone. This was the great "discovery" of the Catholic Martin Luther, and I trust God will open your eyes to this blessed truth also.

Am I going to Heaven?

I'm already in Heaven.  "The kingdom of Heaven is in the midst of you..." (somewhere, in the bible... ;D).



    8)

The question, 'Am I going to heaven poll,' I didn't select any  because we are not saving ourself. We are saved by grace. Eph.2:8-9.
Jn.3:3 Tells us we must be born again. Are you born again?
I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am born again.  :D
God bless,
bluelake

YES!!! BlueLake the answer was NONE of the above. Christ did it ALL.

Grace & Peace

Brother Love :)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH Boy ;D

DITTO

Many have never read the entire Bible or enjoyed knowing it rightly divided.

This is an interesting article (below) for all of you who are so sure you are going to heaven....I challenge you that if you disagree, that you show me where in the article you disagree and not just spit out your doctrine to me, which I already am thoroughly aware of....Perhaps you could quote which parts you disagree with.  I challenge you to read it.


"For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends."
2Corinthians 10:18  

Some non-Catholics teach that all you have to do to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and your salvation is assured  in this life. You only have to make a once in a lifetime commitment and no matter what you do for the rest of your life, you can be certain that you will go to Heaven when you die. Once you do this, it is an impossibility that you will ever lose your salvation. That train of thought, however, is not Biblical, and in reality it is a sin of presumption.
Jesus did not die just so we could sin.


Let us examine Holy Scripture and see what it has to say.

"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that GOD has raised Him from the dead, You shall be saved." Romans 10:9

"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

This is what St. Paul said. Some non-Catholics use these two verses to justify their "Once saved, always saved" belief.
But wait, Jesus Christ Himself said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

Is there a conflict here? Not at all when it is taken in context. St. Paul was speaking about the Jews and their rejection of Christ.

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of Israelites were like the sand of the sea, ONLY A REMNANT WILL BE SAVED...'" Romans 9:27

"Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to GOD on THEIR behalf is for salvation. I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for GOD, but it is NOT DISCERNING. For I bear them witness that they have zeal for GOD, but not according to knowledge; for, ignorant of the justice of GOD and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to the justice of GOD. For Christ is the consummation of the law unto justice for everyone who believes." Romans 10:1-4

St. Paul clearly said that only a remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved, as they have not rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. In these verses he addressed the Judaizers who were still clinging to the Old Covenant Jewish traditions.

However, Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:21, had spoken to all of us, and He clearly stated that we have to do the will of the Father. Doing something requires effort, or work. That work is keeping the commandments. Those who do not keep the commandments will not enter heaven.

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved to you?"
Jesus Christ redeemed us and provided for our salvation. The Gates of Heaven were opened, but not one of us can just 'walk in' and claim residency without obeying the will of the Father.

Another verse which they use to try to support the "Are you Saved" misnomer, is John 10:28.

"And I give them everlasting life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
See also John 6:37, "And him who comes to Me I will not cast out."

Both of those verses indicate that Jesus Christ will be loyal to us and will never cast us out.

However, He left open the fact that we could simply walk away from Him by not keeping His Word.

Here is yet another verse used by those who say they are forever "saved".

"For GOD so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, that those who believe in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting." John 3:16

It seems at first glance from that verse, that all one has to do is to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Again, when the verse is understood from the original Greek text, this is not the case at all. When the underlying Greek wording is analyzed, their argument is lopped off from the vine as yet another fruitless branch would be.

The Greek word used here for "believe", is "Pisteuvw", or when transliterated into English is "Pisteuo". This Greek word means, to believe, to rely on, and to "obey". To "obey" involves works, which means we must bear good fruit.

You could be a branch attached to the vine, but just who is the vine dresser?

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. Every branch in Me that bears no fruit He will take away; and every branch that bears fruit He will cleanse, that it may bear more fruit."
John 15:1-2

"For all of us must be made manifest before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil."
2Cor 5:10

See Matthew 22:8-14, the parable of the marriage feast. The one who was not dressed properly was cast into the darkness outside where there was weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

In Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins. Five were not prepared for the coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) and were shut out of the marriage feast.

Then there is another parable which applies to our topic. In Matthew 13:47-50, the kingdom of heaven is likened to a net cast into the sea and gathers fish of every kind, both good and bad. The good fish are saved, but what happens to the bad ones in verses 49-50? They are cast into the furnace of fire where again there is weeping and the gnashing of teeth. All of the fish were gathered into the net, but were all of them saved from the furnace of fire?

Read about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. You probably have already noticed that both believed, but did you also notice that only one worked? What was the final end of those who did no works? See verses 45-46. Since the goats believed, why then were they not saved also?
See, you may think you are "saved", but a fruitless person is cut off. Now you can readily see that salvation depends upon each one of us and on our individual fruitful actions in a very important way.


Nothing defiled may enter the kingdom of heaven.
"And there shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled, nor he who practices abomination and falsehood, but only those who are written in the book of life of the Lamb." Revelation 21:27

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved?"The people who fit this verse are not following the will of GOD, the Ten Commandments.

"He who overcomes shall possess these things, and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly and unbelieving, and abominable and murderers, and fornicators and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, their portion shall be in the pool that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:7-8

Does this sound like "Once saved, always saved?"

Where do liars spend all eternity even if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but fail to work out their salvation by keeping the Ten Commandments? Are not "Thou shalt not lie", and "Thou shalt not kill" two of the Ten Commandments?

According to the "Once saved, always saved" group of believers, you can sin as much as you want after accepting Jesus Christ and your salvation is guaranteed, regardless.

"Why do you ask me what is good? One there who is good, and he is GOD. But if you will enter into life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS." "Which commandments?" the man asked. Jesus said, "Never murder. Never commit adultery. Never steal. Never give false testimony. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.""
Matthew 19:17-19

These verses clearly have said that if we do not obey the commandments, we will not have (eternal) life.
So if a person who thinks he is "saved", and then lies or commits adultery, how then does he reconcile his actions with Matthew 19:17-19 and Revelation 21:7-8 and 21:27?

Jesus did cure the infirmed man at the pool in John 5:1-9, and later He told him in verse 14, "See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, THAT NOTHING WORSE BEFALL YOU."
Does that sound like, "once saved, always saved"?
Here is yet another example, the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-10. Jesus had prevented her from being stoned to death, and in verse 11 He said, "Neither do I condemn you; GO, AND DO NOT SIN AGAIN." Again, Jesus cautioned, not to sin again.

What is the message from these two examples from John 5 and 8? What if both sinned again? In the first case it would seem that indeed, SOMETHING WORSE WOULD BEFALL THE MAN and in the second case it would be a clear disobedience by the woman to a direct command of Jesus. I repeat, does that sound like, "once saved, always saved"? No way!
"Here is the patience of the Saints, who keep the commandments of GOD, and the faith of Jesus."
Revelation 14:12

If we are "saved" already then what is the purpose of having to obey the commandments?

So, can we truthfully say we are saved? Yes, but not as some non-Catholics believe that it is a one sided process completed by Jesus Christ alone. He did His part, now it is up to each one of us to do our part by our co-operation with His unlimited sacrifice on the cross.

Nevertheless, Catholics realize that even the fulfilling of Our Lord's requirements for salvation is impossible without the free gift of His grace.

Continued below.....

Continued.....

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Salvation is an ongoing process throughout our lives. It is a life long struggle.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12
This verse is in direct conflict with the notion of "Once saved, always saved".

We were saved in the past: Rom 5:1-2,8:24, Eph 2:5-8, 2Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5.

We are being saved now: Rom 5:9-10, 1Cor 1:18,15:2, Phil 2:12, 1Pet 1:8-9,2:1-2.

We will be saved in the future: Mt 10:22,24:13, Rom 13:11, 1Cor 3:12-15,5:5, 2Tim 2:11-13, Rev 21:6-7.


-----------------------------------------------------------We can lose our salvation:

Those who believe "Once saved, always saved", assume (presumption?) that they are written in the "Book of Life" (Dan 12:1) in red indelible ink, and cannot ever be removed from it no matter how much they sin.
How then could they ever explain Ex 32:33:
"The Lord answered, 'Him only who has sinned against Me will I strike out of My book'"?

Even St. Paul admitted that he could lose his salvation:
"...but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected."
1Cor 9:27

Then there is Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

"I have confidence in you the Lord, that you will not think otherwise; but he who disturbs you will bear the penalty, whoever he may be." Gal 5:10

"But that servant who knew his masters will, and did not make ready for him and did not act according to his will, will be beaten with many stripes." Luke 12:47

"You therefore, brethren, since you know this beforehand, be on your guard lest, carried away by the error of the foolish, you fall away from your own steadfastness." 2Pet 3:17
Is this "once saved, always saved"? Well then, what about those who fall into this trap?

Who are those who gloss over these verses and present a blind eye to them?
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are immorality, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, jealousies, anger, quarrels, factions, parties, envies, murders, drunkenness, carousings, and suchlike. AND CONCERNING THESE I WARN YOU, AS I HAVE WARNED YOU, THAT THEY WHO DO SUCH THINGS WILL NOT ATTAIN THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Gal 5:19-21

Again, does this sound like "Once saved, always saved"?
Who can ignore Matt 25:31-46, where the shepherd will separate the sheep from the goats and the righteous will receive their reward but the accursed will depart into the everlasting fire?
See also, Matt 6:14-15, 7:21, 24:44-51, Mark 11:26, Luke 10:16, John 14:21, Rom 11:22,
and Rev 21:8.
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Perseverance in doing the will of the Father:
This virtue will bring us to our goal:

"...but he who has persevered to the end will be saved." Matt 10:22, 24:13
Notice that these verses do not say that we are saved but that we will be saved...future tense. What does "persevered" mean? Why should anyone have to worry about perseverance if they are already saved?

"Life eternal indeed he will give to those who by patience in good works seek glory and honor and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are contentious, and who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity." Rom 2:7-8

"And in doing good, let us not grow tired; for in due time we shall reap if we do not relax." Gal 6:9

"Do not therefore, lose your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of patience that, doing the will of GOD, you may receive the promise:" Heb 10:35-36

"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been tried, he will receive the crown of life which GOD has promised to those who love Him." Jam 1:12

"But he who has looked carefully into the perfect law of liberty and has remained in it, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, shall be blessed in his deed." Jam 1:25

"Take, brethren, as an example of labor and patience, the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord." Jam 5:10

"Therefore, brethren, strive even more by good works to make your calling and election sure. For if you do this, you will not fall into sin at any time. Indeed, in this way will be amply provided for you the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." 2Pet 1:10-11
Well, this verse makes it clear that you need good works to help you to your salvation.

"Once saved, always saved" does not look so promising anymore, does it?
"Him who overcomes I will permit to eat of the tree of life, which is the paradise of my GOD."
Rev 2:7

"Fear none of those things that you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be you faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." Rev 2:10

"And to him who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations." Rev 2:26

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."
1Cor 10:12

See also: John 15:4-10, 1Cor 15:58, Eph 4:14,6:10-17, 1Thes 3:8,5:21-22, 2Thes 2:15-17,
Heb12:1-15,13:9, Jam1:4,2:14-26, 1Pet1:4-7,5:8, Rev2:17,3:5,11-12,21,21:7
-----------------------------------------------------------For all of those who think they are "saved", I must warn them that it is a sin of presumption to believe that false Protestant invented doctrine. Show me a genuine historical document written before 1500 which documents it?

"So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
1Cor 13:13

So if we are saved by faith alone, then what is the purpose of Scripture telling us to have hope? There would be no need for hope if we are saved already. What does that verse say about love?
It says love is greater than faith. For those who say they are saved by faith alone, are they not insinuating that faith is greater than love? Aren't they ignoring both hope and love?

Since I mentioned the year 1500 above, there was a reason why I did. It was Martin Luther who "invented" the false doctrine of "Once saved, always saved", when in Romans 3:28 he added the word "alone" to his German translation of Holy Scripture. That verse then read, "...a man is justified by faith alone". This action on his part was an embarassment to the other reformers, and so you will not find that little word "alone" in Romans 3:28 in the King James or any other Protestant Bible except for his.

Here is one quote from Luther regarding "Once saved always saved",
"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly... No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."
Martin Luther, letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521

What about those verses I quoted previously regarding the command of Jesus to sin no more."

Is this the meaning of "Once saved always saved"?

Can we throw out the ten commandments now along with scores of other verses?

Not at all according to John 14:15, "If you love me you will keep my commandments".

How can anyone possibly reconcile those Words of Christ with that quote from Luther above?

Of what purpose does that verse serve with Luther's twisted theology?

What about "Thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not kill?

Shall we believe the words of Luther or the Words of GOD?

Did you know that Martin Luther wrote the obituary for his own church?

In this quote from one of his writings, he was speaking of "Saved by Faith alone (or only)".
"If this article stands, the church stands; if it collapses, the church collapses."
Martin Luther, Exposition of Psalms 130,4


Well, Martin, that 'article' of yours did not stand, but did indeed collapse.
I have shown more than ample evidence of that collapse in the verses included in this writing, soooo....?
-----------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, the people who believe in "Are You Saved", or "Once Saved, Always Saved", are the same people who berate the Catholic Church for canonizing saints. Now the word "Saint" simply means, a "Holy One", or a person who is in heaven. So, by believing in, "Once Saved, Always Saved", it simply means that those who believe in it are canonizing themselves. In other words, since I am "saved", "I will go to heaven, and therefore, all who are in heaven are saints, therefore I am a saint already".


"For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends."
2Corinthians 10:18
AGAIN, JESUS DID NOT DIE JUST SO WE COULD SIN.

Hail Mary ;D

Benny Hinn is that you ;D

Ambassador - not much of a thinker are you?

so glad you can have an original thought in your head.  again, i have not a clue what on earth you are talking about with this benny thing.  Perhaps it's an inside joke or something.

If you have something theological to add, I would be happy to chime in.

Again, typical born again christian diversion tactic.  Truth a little too much for ya?

He did His part, now it is up to each one of us to do our part by our co-operation with His unlimited sacrifice on the cross --AveMaria

AveMaria:

This is typical Roman Catholic theology: "He did His part, now we must do our part in order to:(1) be saved (2) remain saved (3) to stay out of purgatory (4) to stay out of hell."

Evidently you have never closely studied what the Bible teaches about justification by God's grace through faith. Had you simply believed what the Lord Jesus said to the malefactor on the cross beside Him at Golgotha, you would never speak about "us doing our part", since that poor crucified criminal was there in his dying moments, yet was promised Paradise that very day, and what Christ promises He also fulfills!

Be that as it may, let's take the Parable of the Prodigal Son and apply it to your dogma, and let's see what this Prodigal's part was in getting back into the good graces of his father, since this parable teaches the truths of salvation very graphically (Luke 15:12-32):

1. The younger son was obviously a sinner -- selfish, greedy, inconsiderate, profligate, and debauched (vv. 11-14).

2. He came to his senses during the famine which forced him to eat the food of pigs (vv. 14-17)

3. He finally decided to return to his father and confess that he was a sinner who deserved nothing good from his father (vv. 18-19)

4. His father, on the other hand, loved him with such a great love, that (1) he waited for his return daily (2) saw him returning while yet a great way off (3) ran to this filthy sinner (4) embraced him (5) kissed him (6) ordered "the best" robe for him (7) ordered a magnificent ring for his hand (8) ordered the finest shoes for his feet (9) ordered a glorious feast for him with "the best calf" -- the fatted calf -- being sacrificed(10) encouraged music and dancing for the return of the prodigal, and (11) finally declared: "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; HE WAS LOST AND IS FOUND" (vv. 20-24).

Now please tell us what part this filthy son had in this entire scenario other than repenting of his sins against his father and confessing his own sinfulness and unworthiness?

BTW, this also corresponds to the Parable of the Publican [a known sinner] and the Pharisee [a covert sinner] who both prayed.  However the publican confessed that he was a sinner and unworthy of the grace of God, while the Pharisee reminded God that "he had done his part".  Pray tell, which of these two went home "justified"?

Its better that I joke with you, at this time.

Hail Mary ;D

I get that sometimes when an honest and solid answer can't be found for miles.

Sometimes? Where do you think you are theologyonline? This is Christiansunite! We don't jave honest and solid answers ;D We do have Harry Potter, though ;)

Yup.  Those who know me know I'm about to go on my "grammatical, contextual, and literal hermeneutic" approach yet again...


As is often the case, one verse is taken and the others left behind, thereby making an incorrect doctrinal assumption.  The direct passage reads:


If I am to work out my own salvation, thereby earning that salvation, and this work is what God works in me both to will and to work...then it is God Who makes me lose my salvation.  This, however, is not what the passage teaches.  "As you have obeyed...work out your own salvation..."  This is the biblical doctrine of sanctification.  We are saved, but we are not devoid of needing an obedience to the working of God in our lives.  This obedience is work, not[/b] for salvation, but rather in light of so great a salvation.  And we are to do so with fear and trembling, not in losing something God gave us, but in respect to the God Who did give this salvation to us.

And here's another interesting hermeneutic...whenever the word "therefore" shows up, we are always behooved to find out why the "therefore is there for..."


Jesus is shown not only to be God very God, but a humbly obedient servant - a mindset we are admonished to take up ourselves.  Now.  Paul tells us to be imitators of Christ in humble obedience to God - and then tells us that we must earn our own salvation?  Usually the author sticks to his thoughts rather than pulling one out of left field, throwing it in, and then continuing.  

Simply put, this passage DOES NOT TEACH THAT WE MUST EARN OUR OWN SALVATION[/b][/u].  Perhaps I've been a bit to emphatic...but it was God any less emphatic when He wrote:

One thing for sure Harry Potter knows God, more than the pope :)

I am sure A4C can handle the false teachings of the Cult called the roman catholic religion. Dont let your heads get to big.

Brother Love :)

Your religion has very little truth, and if A4C does not start picking your Cult apart, rest assure I will.

Have a Nice Day :)

Brother Love :)

Paul wrote: "Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galatians 6:7-10)
Galatians is a letter Paul wrote to warn Christians about turning from a life of Grace to a life of Law. Grace brings freedom. Law brings slavery. Paul's message of salvation had freed the Galatians from their guilt. False teachers had followed Paul into the region and preached a message that brought guilt back to the Galatians. Paul asked the question brilliantly: "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" The answer, of course, is that they received the Spirit by faith. We don't receive Christ by human effort. We also cannot attain our spiritual goals by human effort. We attain by Grace through faith. That is the essence of GraceLife.
Prior to the words about reaping and sowing, Paul wrote: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Gal. 5:1) He also wrote: "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Gal. 5:13-14) Paul told the Galatians: "...live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." Paul enumerated the acts of the sinful nature and the fruit of the Spirit. They are opposites. That is the way it is between unsaved and saved. God will do different things in the lives of His children than will Satan in the lives of his children. We ought to know because we once belonged to Satan.

In the words just preceeding "reaping and sowing," Paul wrote about carrying the burdens of others. He also wrote that "anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor." Then, Paul wrote: "do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." This has nothing to do with whether a Christian will go to heaven or hell. That's been settled in heaven once and for all (Eph. 1:3-14). In Galatians, Paul is dealing with the way a Christian lives their life. They can lead it any way they want since they're free. But ... what Christians should do is live their lives for God and others, not themselves. A life lived selfishly is a life wasted. A life lived for God and the good of others is a life lived well. Pleasing your sinful nature is wasting the time and resources God gives you. None of it will last through eternity. Paul wrote, "Everything is permissible'---but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible'---but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others." (1 Cor. 10:23-24). The context deals with the way we live our lives in view of other people.

The day will come when every Christian will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ, "that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10) You and I have nothing to fear from sin in our lives. Christ paid for all sin. We are holy in God's eyes. What we should concern ourselves with is how we are living to please God. That's the big issue now. Eternal life is ahead of us. We will someday spend eternity with God in heaven. Our time on earth is the only time we'll ever have to live for Christ while still in sinful flesh. We get new bodies in heaven. We leave the sinful flesh behind. It will be easy to obey God in heaven because we won't have a sinful cell in our new bodies. Now is our time to demonstrate to God our deep and abiding love and thankfulness to Him for His Grace toward us. God knows the pull that sinful flesh has on us. He knows how much strength and character it takes to say "no" to sin and "yes" to righteous living.

Paul was telling the Galatian Christians then, and is telling us now to live a life dedicated to God and doing good to others. Sowing and reaping are an intregal part of the physical and spiritual laws God designed into the system of life. Paul tells us how to get the most out of both.

Amen Ambassador
++++++++++++++++

It Is All Of Grace

                                               
                       


When we learn about grace we learn what life is all about.  The "IN CHRIST" expression occurs some seventy times in Paul's epistles and only twice elsewhere.  The central passage on this truth is 2 Corinthians 5:17: " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."  Other passages tell us we are in him: Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:4; Colossians 2:10; Ephesians 2:13.

We learn who we are "In Christ" and more importantly we learn about who God is, what the Gospel is for the age of Grace and our relation-ship with Him.  We enter into a dimension of life we never dreamed possible.  And was not pos-sible to the Nation of Israel, as they were under, obedience, law, and some 350 ordinances.  Praise the Lord all these were nailed to the cross at the death of Christ (Col 2:14).

GRACE is not getting what you do deserve, but receiving what we do not deserve. GRACE is  the unmerited favor that God has given to us by His choice (Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9).

GRACE is Being "in Christ" the believer is made to share in the whole history of Christ's passion, burial, resurrection, ascension, and glorification.

GRACE  is knowing that there is no more guilt, condemnation  (Rom. 8:1)

GRACE  is knowing that we were chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

GRACE  is knowing we have been jointly cru-cified with Christ (Rom. 6:6 and Gal. 2:20).

GRACE  is knowing that God accepts me just the way I am, accepted in the beloved (Eph. 1:6).

GRACE  is knowing that I am not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14) and that Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4), it is not up to me to live the Christian life, but to trust Christ in me to do it (Gal. 2:20).

GRACE is knowing we have been made to jointly live with Christ (Eph.2:5).

GRACE is knowing we are jointly seated with  Christ at present in the heavenlies (Eph. 2:6; Col. 3:1).

GRACE is knowing we are jointly glorified with Christ (Romans 8:17; 8:30).

GRACE is knowing that the believer has already died unto sin through Christ's death (Rom. 6:10).

GRACE is knowing that the believer was bap-tized (Identified) by the Spirit into one body. (1 Cor. 12:13).

GRACE is knowing that we have been blessed with all Spiritual Blessings in heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3).

GRACE is knowing we can walk around in His good works (Eph. 2:10).

GRACE  is knowing that Satan was defeated at the cross and has no power over me (Col. 2:15).

GRACE  is knowing that  there  is  no  Jew  or Gentile in the body of Christ, we are all the same, members of His body, the Body of Christ.

GRACE is knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ is the head, and that we are the body.

GRACE is knowing our blessed hope, the being caught up into the air to meet out Lord (Titus 2:13; 1 Thes. 4:13-18).

GRACE is knowing that we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13).

GRACE is knowing we are His inheritance, and we are His will (Eph. 1:18).

GRACE is knowing that God will finish the good work that He has begun in his (Phi.1:6).

GRACE is knowing that we have the mind of Christ (Phil 2:5).

GRACE is knowing that we can walk by faith (Col. 2:6)    

I pray that this will be a rich blessing in your life, for it surely has been in mine. For your own growth "in Christ", don't just read this, but take and study each Scripture, and  I know that the Holy Spirit will lead you into the Truth.

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2 Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a  workman  that needeth  not  to  be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
This is my last day on this Forum.

Grace & Peace

Brother Love  :)

It Is All Of Grace

Amen Brother, thanks for posting this message

The Answer Is None of the above.

The Crusader

Yes Crusader, the answer is none of the above.

Grace & Peace

You may express your belief through Faith on what Christ did at Calvary plus Nothing.



 

Plus Nothing, Amen

THE GOSPEL PRODUCES ASSURANCE

BY RUSSELL S. MILLER

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (IThes.1:5).

Many people do not have assurance in these days in which we live. They base their salvation upon what some man has said, or upon some church doctrine, rather than God’s Word. Even their so-called "good works" cannot please God because they have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and refused to believe Paul’s God-given "gospel" of the saving grace of
Jesus Christ.

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph.1:7).

The Lord has told us that "the gift of God IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom.6:23). If God’s "gift" is eternal life, and we are "justified by [Christ’s] blood" (Rom.5:9), should we not believe what God has said? He is well able to perform that which He has said He will do.

"BEING CONFIDENT OF THIS VERY THING, THAT HE WHICH HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK IN YOU WILL PERFORM IT UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST" (Phil.1:6).

The "performance", here, also goes beyond our salvation to include our daily walk with Him. It is true that "we are HIS workmanship" (Eph.2:10), but it is equally true that we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil.2,12). "Shall we continue in sin [then], that grace may abound?" (Rom.6:1). Paul answers this with an emphatic: "GOD FORBID. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom.6:2). This lifestyle does not produce assurance; it rather produces guilt as we can readily see from the world about us! It therefore behooves every child of God to "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, THAT YE MAY PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE AND PERFECT WILL OF GOD (Rom. 12:1,2).

There is more. To the yielded believer, "God works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil.2:13). Indeed our wonderful Saviour desires greater things yet -— "That our hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the FULL ASSURANCE of understanding, to the acknowledgment [full knowledge] of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ" (Col.2:2).

This is the "gospel" that "established" the believers at Thessalonica and also produces assurance in us today. Listen to what the Apostle wrote in his first letter to them:

"For OUR gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance...." When we believe Paul’s gospel, we have that assurance of being true "FOLLOWERS OF THE LORD"
(IThess.1:5,6).
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Subscribe at:
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Two Minutes With The Bible By Pastor Stam

Mailing Address:
Berean Bible Society
N112 W17761 Mequon Road
P.O. Box 756
Germantown, WI 53022

Web Site:
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Gospel Books, Materials, & Free Mailings

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THE GOSPEL OF GRACE OF GOD

BY RUSSELL S. MILLER

"Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph.1:2).

The above verse is the theme of all the Epistles of St. Paul where we
find how to obtain both "grace" and "peace". The words of this verse are found at the beginning of every one of his letters.

So, which would you rather have, the "grace" and "peace" of God, or would you prefer to see the Lord Jesus Christ on that "white horse" of the Book of the Revelation?

"AND I SAW HEAVEN OPENED, AND BEHOLD A WHITE HORSE; AND HE THAT SAT UPON HIM WAS CALLED FAITHFUL AND TRUE, AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS HE DOTH JUDGE AND MAKE WAR" (Rev.19:11-16).

It is on account of the wickedness of men in seeking to run the world without Him that He judges the earth and makes war.

However, "...now is the Day of salvation" (IICor. 6:2). It is in this Day and Age of Grace that God is saving men and women, boys and girls, by grace through faith without works (Eph.2:8,9). We cannot earn heaven, of course, for our salvation is "the gift of God", purchased for us by Christ on Calvary's cross. Paul therefore declares in his Epistle to the Corinthians with regards to "the gospel of your salvation" (Eph.1:13):

"...How that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (ICor.15:3,4).

This redemption that is in Christ Jesus is ours by simple faith in Him.

"We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph.1:7).

Nevertheless, we can, and should, draw nigh unto Him, through faith in His blessed Word, the Bible. Read especially the epistles of St. Paul, over and over again, until they become part and parcel of yourself, for therein is our only salvation:

"WHEREFORE HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, SEEING HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM" (Heb.7:25).

There is no peace in this world, so worth having, as "peace with God".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subscribe at:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/twominut.html
Two Minutes With The Bible By Pastor Stam

Mailing Address:
Berean Bible Society
N112 W17761 Mequon Road
P.O. Box 756
Germantown, WI 53022

Web Site:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/
Gospel Books, Materials, & Free Mailings

Email: berean@execpc.com

Standing in Grace ... Forever




Sometimes we get the idea that yes, we're saved by grace through faith, but now that we're saved, the Lord puts us on a "works system." We have to be good enough to keep our salvation. We can't really be sure we're going to heaven, because we don't know whether we'll "endure to the end." Here, again, knowing about the "administration of God's grace" that the Lord Jesus revealed to the  Apostle  Paul  for  us  is  the open door to a really blessed Christian experience. Not only are we saved by grace, but our stand-ing before God every day is in His grace! "We were welcomed by faith into this grace in which we stand..You are not under law, but under grace." Romans 5:2 &  6:14 How does law work?



Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for
ye are not under the law, but under grace.



The law says, 'Obey and God will bless you, disobey and God will curse you.' (See Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15-16). Many Bible teach-ers today are teaching law instead of grace.  They  say  "Give your tithes and  God will  bless  you." "Be obedient and God will bless you." Wrong!! This is the essence of the law. "Obey and be blessed, disobey and be cursed."But Paul says we're not under law. We're under grace, we're standing in His grace. And remember how grace works... "If it is by grace then it is no longer by works..." Romans 11:6. Our standing with God is not on the basis of our works, not our obedience, not our tithes ... it is entirely on the basis of His grace, every moment of every day! Bless-ed with all spiritual blessings already by grace (Ephesians 1:3), everything that we do today for the Lord is motivated not by fear (Romans 8:15) but by gratitude (Colossians 3:17)."Thank you Lord that you have already bless-ed me with every spiritual bless-ing, that you saved me by your grace in which I am now standing, that you have begun your good work in me and will carry it on to completion" (Philippians 1:6).This is the Lord Jesus'

 Grace For Today.
Pastor Dennis Kiszonas
=================================
Should this devotional be a blessing to you, maybe you have a friend or family member that would like to start receiving the daily word. You may forward this to them, by copy and paste method,  and they can use the below link to subscribe. We love to meet new people

Daily Inspirational

WEB SITE
Grace And The Truth
www.graceandthetruth.com

E-Mail GracentheTruth@aol.com

2 Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a  workman  that needeth  not  to  be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.