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Poll
Question: Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.
 Obeying God's law and commandments - 28 (52.8%)
Doing your best - 7 (13.2%)
Living a good life - 2 (3.8%)
Good works - 3 (5.7%)
Tithing, or giving money to the church - 1 (1.9%)
Church membership or attendance - 1 (1.9%)
Water baptism - 7 (13.2%)
Holy communion - 4 (7.5%)
Total Voters: 43

Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 33 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Am I Going to Heaven ?  (Read 107988 times)
Left Coast
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« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2003, 12:27:15 PM »

I would really like more time to study these verses in depth. But that could take years.
However I donít think you are on the right track. It could be that I just donít understand you. For instance to be lead by God and free choice are contradictions. Or were you saying God leads us to steal by our free choice. I doubt that is what you meant so it is probably my failure to understand you.
I usually write everything into my word program and then let it spell check for me as I am slightly ydslexic and I speel  Grin  poorly also. Plus my fingers often hit mnore than one key.  
When we be come saved we receive the Holy Ghost. It dwells within us.

Acts 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now if you blaspheme your very salvation where does that put you?
The candlestick represents churches, not Gods eternal church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), but rather the corporal churches.

Revelation 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
I will have to chew on your word for awhile.  
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
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« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2003, 12:43:07 PM »

suzi
With experience with 4 children I know babies know right from wrong.
When a baby is doing something wrong and you stand up, they will run away from what they are doing. And if it is very wrong they will run away holding the back of their diaper. They know the swat is coming.
And according to:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Babies break the law.  They are estranged from God.
This is hard to deal with but it is the word of God.
Yes we know sin through the law and a parent should teach their child that law.
ďMommy I want, I want, gimmy, gimmy.Ē Greed, covetness, etc.
Now Iíve got to go Iíve got an appointment with my son.  
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
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« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2003, 12:55:47 PM »

Does God Send Babies To Hell?

Berean Bible Church - Edgewater, Florida

The Church That Preaches What The Bible Teaches

There seems to be some discussion among the "brethren" regarding the eternal destiny of infants.

I, for one, disagree with the theory that God sends babies to hell, as we shall see.

The argument as I have heard it goes like this:

all have sinned
sinners end up in hell fire
we are sinners from birth
sin must be judged
so all sinners go to hell
It is a very logical argument but even logic must give way to the scriptures. Many in answering this thesis would use the "age of accountability" argument and in some arenas that would suffice. However the real question here is not of AGE but of UNDERSTANDING.

To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age. But let us hasten to the scriptures and answer the question, "Does God impute sin where there is no understanding of sin or of God?"

God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because they did not have enough understanding to reject God. -- Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where understanding is being developed. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right or wrong and are there fore not culpable. Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now, here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev 20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their lack of understanding?
Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is necessary for redemption. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
We could go on and on but that would belabor the point. We will close therefore with this: James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Gen 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes, HE will!!


By Pastor Doug Dodd s.b.g.
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« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2003, 06:14:44 PM »

Quote
To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age.

In the islands of the South Pacific when people were sexual swingers they did not know it was a sin, therefore that would not be subject to judgment. Since they had never heard of Jesus there was no sin on believing on him ether.
I got a speeding ticket because I didnít know that the speed had been lowered.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense in America. The above quote by Doug Dodd sounds very pleasing but it is false.
Concerning Deuteronomy 1:39--- The nation of Israel time and time again rebelled against God, the children were not old enough to be one of the decision makers for the nation therefore God was not going to punish them for the sins of their nation. If there is an age of accountability it would be 20:
 
Concerning atonement money, paying for atonement:
Exodus 30:14  Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

We can come up with all sorts of gospels if we isolate various verses of scripture. Pastor Dodd is using Deuteronomy 1:39 out of context.

Isaiah 7:16 again is out of context. It is very much parabolic language dealing with the birth of Christ. And Christ was the only person since Adam who was born with no sin in him. Verse 14 Öa virgin shall conceive, and bare a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.  

And to hand a Calvinist Romans 9 is like pitching a baseball right down the middle to Barry Bonds. You should have walked me. Grin
If there is any book of the bible that I would recommend someone reading over and over again, until it sinks in, it is Romans 9.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God chose to save Jacob before they were born to prove his salvation plan was one of ELECTION not works.
I was not talking about unborn children God says we go astray as soon as we are born not before we are born.

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
Not by our will. If your salvation is based on your freewill decision look at this verse again.
This really should be more on babies so I wonít take the bait and go further. I could do pages and pages on Romans 9.
I am sorry but Pastor Doug needs to do a little more homework.
The Bible is very clear on this:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.
If you have another understanding of Psalm 58 I am open to learn.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

What is a suckling? God does judge babies. Do you have another understanding? What is it?
One note C. H. Spurgeon believed that God saved all babies by election. I am in disagreement with him on this issue. It doesnít mean he doesnít know what he is talking about. I hold that same position on Pastor Dodd, I really donít know anything about him.
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
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« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2003, 08:23:37 PM »

Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.

 Obeying God's law and commandments
 Doing your best
 Living a good life
 Good works
 Tithing, or giving money to the church
 Church membership or attendance
 Water baptism
 Holy communion


Explanation

If you picked one or more of the above items, you failed the test. Don't feel badly though, most people do fail. Most are to some degree"religious", but religions are nothing more than man-made attempts to reach God.

The real answer of how to get to Heaven is not found in some religious system or by man's self-righteousness. God has declared that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10). "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23).

Further, God's Word teaches that sin is a very serious matter. II Thessalonians 1:9 tells of "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

What can you do about your sin problem ? Can you clean up your life, do good works and hope that in the end your good works will outweigh your bad works ? NO! Salvation does not come to those who work for it, but to those who cease from their own works, placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5 makes that point abundantly clear: "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "In Ephesians 2:8 & 9, it is declared, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

The issue is not what you can do for God, but what He has done for you. "But God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:Cool. "He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21). You have no righteousness of your own. To have eternal life you must have the righteousness of Christ (see Romans 3:26).

What then is your responsibility? God has given you a free will to either accept or reject what He has done for you. To have God's righteousness, you must believe that "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried; and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (I Corinthians 15:3, 4).

Your response to the gospel should be as we read of the Ephesians: "In Whom (the Lord Jesus Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13). This seal is a guarantee that your salvation is eternal--you can never lose it (see Ephesians 1:14, 4:30, IICorinthians 1:22).

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)
 
 
 
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« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2003, 08:29:20 PM »



1.  In one triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be both God and man.

2.  That Jesus Christ identified himself in written form in the Holy Bible as God and that one can only believe that  by choice - faith. The Bible cannot be clearly understood unless that choice is made. (1 Cor. 2:14)

3.  I believe that the only gospel to be preached for man's salvation today is the Gospel of Grace which is:


I Corinthians 15:3-4  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.



Ephesians 2:8-9   For by  grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.


4.  That once that choice to believe is made, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and places him/her into the church which is HIS BODY (Eph. 1:22,23) and seals them unto the redemption of their physical bodies to the receipt of their glorified bodies with which they will live (and serve) eternally in heaven. This is called the doctrine of eternal security.  (Eph. 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:49-53)

5.  I believe what the Bible teaches about religion; that God instituted only one religion - the religion of Israel - and is no longer dealing with mankind on the basis of that religion because Israel was unwilling to recognize her Messiah King, incurring God's wrath (to come) upon her during the Great Tribulation, prophesied and still to come.  God has put that program aside (Rom. 11:25) and is dealing with man on the basis of a mystery plan He conceived and kept hidden in himself (before the foundation of the world) until the right time, called "due time."  (1 Tim. 2:6)

6.  I believe, therefore, that God has given us the Apostle Paul's epistles for our doctrine, to live by until he calls His Body out of the earth.  We believe that the Bible clearly teaches a catching up or a rapture of the church (the true church) and that God's only religion (of the Jewish nation) will THEN be restored.  That "kingdom come, on earth" will then be the program God will use to deal with mankind on the earth.

7.  I believe in the inerrancy of the entire  Bible and in God's ability to keep his promise to preserve his words (Ps. 12:6,7); that they therefore exist for us English speaking people today in the Authorized Version which is known as the King James Version.

8.  That while the whole Bible is written FOR us, only the Apostle Paul's epistles are written TO us - for our learning and obedience. We understand and believe that we need to study the whole of God's word in order to understand the distinctiveness of God's program and dealings with mankind, therefore knowing where to get our doctrine for today; where to find out and become a part of what God is doing today.

9.  That the "commission" for the Body of Christ is to be Ambassadors of the Mystery Message of the Grace of God "reconciling us" to God, as given to the Apostle Pauland recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.  We have compared, studied, learned and understand that this commission is not the same as the commission given to the twelve apostles when Christ was on the earth and that we are to be obedient to "the faith" of the message given to the Gentiles by the RISEN LORD Jesus Christ from Heaven.  (Romans 15:26)
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« Reply #216 on: August 24, 2003, 01:32:37 AM »

petro
I want to answer your question before we get to far away from it.
If one of my children died and he was not saved I would mourn. I still mourn for my parents. Wonderful people but unless God saved them on their death bed they will not be in heaven.
David did not mourn.

2 Samuel 12:21  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2 Samuel 12:2  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me

I think that there is a spiritual lesson in this passage related to fasting that I want to explore in a minute.
He would not have quit weeping if his son was in the grave.
On the other hand he said he would go to his son.
When a believer dies his spiritual body goes to be with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We also have a very misunderstood verse of scripture:

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice that these are the souls of the saved. The mark on the forehead denotes what their thoughts were on. The stumbling stone for many is the thousand years. Notice it doesnít say reigned on earth. These are the believers who have died through out the ages.
Of course the question is: How can that be since all sorts of Christians have been with Christ longer than a thousand years. Numbers are words and all of the words of the bible are subject to interpretation. We have a key to understanding this word in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In a nut shell, when we are with the Lord we are no longer in time. We will be with the Lord for the fullness of Gods time. And that is all that the thousand year stuff is about. Gods time. God doesnít always use words like we think He should as youíll see when we go into fasting.
Because someone who is saved goes to be with the Lord. And because David didnít mourn. I think I am on solid ground to say David believed he would see his son.

Now about fasting.
Jesus removed a devil from a child and his disciples asked why they were not able to do it. Jesus answered:

Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

This verse was left out of the N.I.V. because the translators didnít think it made sense to go without food to remove a devil. It was one of the main reasons why they chose to use the older texts. It is my belief that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they were not used. They werenít used because they werenít accurate. It seems more reasonable to me that a scribe made an error. Maybe he was new, maybe he was old, may be he was careless. Maybe he had to hurry and decided since he didnít understand some verses so he left them out, there is probably a thousand (pun intended) reasons why these older texts were inaccurate. But I think it is much more reasonable than some body trusted added to the bible. If youíre going to add something why would you add something like that?
God gives His definition of fasting.

Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
On a spiritual level once someone dies the gospel is of no use to them. So once his son died David quit fasting. It is a historical parable.    
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« Reply #217 on: August 24, 2003, 01:42:08 AM »

Quote
Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.

Obeying God's law and commandments
Doing your best
Living a good life
Good works
Tithing, or giving money to the church
Church membership or attendance
Water baptism
Holy communion
Believing on Christ
Calling on the Lord
By faith


None of the above works will get you saved. Any gospel that requires work would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. Believing, calling, obeying, and faith are a result of salvation.
You cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born again. How do you get yourself born?

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John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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« Reply #218 on: August 24, 2003, 02:06:50 AM »

If you make a choice you are doing a work. That is why you need an age of accountability. Babies can not do that work, and even if there was an age of accountability (there isnít) the fact that babies could not choose and could not believe is proof that it is a work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.

If You must choose than it is of yourself by definition.

We have already covered a lot of this earlier Here is an excerpt from my reply #273:
Believing is a work. That is why Paul said people could not believe until they had hear about Jesus:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus said it was Gods work that we believe:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
You have a works gospel Ambassador.
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« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2003, 06:04:49 AM »

Does God Send Babies To Hell?

Berean Bible Church - Edgewater, Florida

The Church That Preaches What The Bible Teaches

There seems to be some discussion among the "brethren" regarding the eternal destiny of infants.

I, for one, disagree with the theory that God sends babies to hell, as we shall see.

The argument as I have heard it goes like this:

all have sinned
sinners end up in hell fire
we are sinners from birth
sin must be judged
so all sinners go to hell
It is a very logical argument but even logic must give way to the scriptures. Many in answering this thesis would use the "age of accountability" argument and in some arenas that would suffice. However the real question here is not of AGE but of UNDERSTANDING.

To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age. But let us hasten to the scriptures and answer the question, "Does God impute sin where there is no understanding of sin or of God?"

God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because they did not have enough understanding to reject God. -- Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where understanding is being developed. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right or wrong and are there fore not culpable. Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now, here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev 20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their lack of understanding?
Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is necessary for redemption. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
We could go on and on but that would belabor the point. We will close therefore with this: James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Gen 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes, HE will!!


By Pastor Doug Dodd s.b.g.


Thank A4C, Amen

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« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2003, 01:17:14 AM »

petro
I want to answer your question before we get to far away from it.
If one of my children died and he was not saved I would mourn. I still mourn for my parents. Wonderful people but unless God saved them on their death bed they will not be in heaven.
David did not mourn.

2 Samuel 12:21  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2 Samuel 12:2  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me

I think that there is a spiritual lesson in this passage related to fasting that I want to explore in a minute.
He would not have quit weeping if his son was in the grave.
On the other hand he said he would go to his son.
When a believer dies his spiritual body goes to be with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We also have a very misunderstood verse of scripture:

Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice that these are the souls of the saved. The mark on the forehead denotes what their thoughts were on. The stumbling stone for many is the thousand years. Notice it doesnít say reigned on earth. These are the believers who have died through out the ages.
Of course the question is: How can that be since all sorts of Christians have been with Christ longer than a thousand years. Numbers are words and all of the words of the bible are subject to interpretation. We have a key to understanding this word in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In a nut shell, when we are with the Lord we are no longer in time. We will be with the Lord for the fullness of Gods time. And that is all that the thousand year stuff is about. Gods time. God doesnít always use words like we think He should as youíll see when we go into fasting.
Because someone who is saved goes to be with the Lord. And because David didnít mourn. I think I am on solid ground to say David believed he would see his son.

Now about fasting.
Jesus removed a devil from a child and his disciples asked why they were not able to do it. Jesus answered:

Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

This verse was left out of the N.I.V. because the translators didnít think it made sense to go without food to remove a devil. It was one of the main reasons why they chose to use the older texts. It is my belief that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they were not used. They werenít used because they werenít accurate. It seems more reasonable to me that a scribe made an error. Maybe he was new, maybe he was old, may be he was careless. Maybe he had to hurry and decided since he didnít understand some verses so he left them out, there is probably a thousand (pun intended) reasons why these older texts were inaccurate. But I think it is much more reasonable than some body trusted added to the bible. If youíre going to add something why would you add something like that?
God gives His definition of fasting.

Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
On a spiritual level once someone dies the gospel is of no use to them. So once his son died David quit fasting. It is a historical parable.    

Left Coast,

One can only speculate, concerning this matter.

I accept the verses you have shared, and I do not believe in this "age of accountability" teachi9ng it is not biblical, I have made this perfectly clear, that God saves every child is not biblical either, for the following reasons;

1.  There is two seed lines the corruped seed, and the incorruptable seed. And only the Sower knows and can tell the one from the other.

2.  It is clear, God hated Esau, but loved Jacob, before either had done good or evil.  What is intere4sting are these words which follow in the passage:

Rom 9
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Did not Pharaoh, perish; God raised him up for this purpose He says, herein;  

If Pharaoh would have died as a baby, would he have been saved??, or........ would he not have been saved??

3. If you believe what David believed, he understood he was a sinner, shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin (Psa 51:5)

How about;

Psa 58
3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;


4. God knoweth them that are His. (2 Tim 2:19)

5. God, He is sovereign..He will do what is right, and only He knows what is right..because He knows the end from the begining.

All those whom He has predestinated from before the foundations of the world, will be counted in roll of the living.....whose mnames are written into the Book..

The matter rests with God, not with our intellect...or our understanding.

I don't concern myself in trying to figure what David's mindset or what he was thinking or what he knew concerning the child that died, whom God had stricken.

I is clear to me, he understood God killed the child in place of his own life for the sins commited in causing the death of Uria and that of coveting Batsheba, (2 Sam 12:13), this is clear to me since, David never offered up an animal sacrifice, for remission of these sins to God, note the wording at verse 13;

The LORD also hath put away thy sin; when confronted by Nathan the prophet.

This reminds me, of the covering God provided for Adam and Eves transgression at the Garden.

You can pretend to speak for God, but as for me, I leave these issues, which are not clear to Him, in do time He will make known these mysteries.

I say, we don't know, whether God saves all babies or not; what we do know is that the just shall live by faith, unto faith, knowing that He will in the end do justice, afterall the offenses, which are deserving of death are against Him, and not us.. and He knows who is or isn't deserving of death.


Petro

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« Reply #221 on: August 29, 2003, 06:29:39 AM »

Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift.

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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
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« Reply #222 on: September 01, 2003, 03:22:22 PM »

The Conversion of the Philippian Jailor (Part 1 of 2)

"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

" And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

" And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

" But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

" Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

" And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

" And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

" And they spake unto him the Word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house." -Acts 16:25-32  

A MAGNIFICENT TESTIMONY

What are these sounds at midnight? Praying! Singing!

Strange! Can it be coming from the dungeon where the two latest prisoners were cast? They cannot even kneel; their feet are fast in stocks. And sing? Why, only a few hours ago they were brutally beaten with rods and thrown into the dungeon, their backs pitifully bruised and bleeding from "many stripes."

Of course, they cannot sleep-but how can they be praying and singing under such circumstances and in such a place? Yet it must be they we hear, for they are the ones who have been going about telling people about salvation through Christ.

How strange and wonderful it sounds! Until now these walls have heard only groans, curses and vile outbursts: now they are hearing prayers and songs!

What a testimony Paul and Silas bore for Christ that midnight! Though deeply wronged and in physical misery, faith and joy overflowed as they prayed and sang hymns (Gr. humneo) to God. They were far from bitter. In their suffering, and not knowing how long they would be confined to this horrible dungeon or what test they might have to face next, they poured out their hearts in prayer to God, calling upon Him for strength and help.

And somehow He seemed closer to them now, rather than farther away, so that they burst out in one song of praise after another, coming from hearts overflowing with peace and joy. "And the prisoners were listening."["The prisoners heard them" is not strong enough. They listened, deeply impressed by what they heard.]

Their consciences were clear and their hearts right with God-and more, like the apostles in Jerusalem in their persecutions, they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41). Indeed, in a truer sense than they, Paul was the apostle of the rejected Christ, filling up that which still remained of His afflictions for His Body's sake (Col. 1:24). Thus he later wrote to the saints in this very city:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake;

" Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me" (Phil. 1:29,30).

Yes, and the apostle went farther than that, expressing to them his longing to know Christ more intimately in "the fellowship of His sufferings" (Phil. 3:10).

This was the joy that filled and overflowed the hearts of Paul and Silas in that dark prison cell.

And suddenly, as they prayed and sang, there was an earthquake, so violent that it shook the foundations of the prison. "And immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed" Wer. 26).

Surely this was a divine intervention. What if history does bear witness that earthquakes were frequent in that vicinity at that time, it would still be a miracle that one should take place just then and do just that-including even the loosing of every one's bands! This last unquestionably bears the stamp of the miraculous. Those who deny this have argued that an earthquake, besides loosening the doors, might well have broken loose the bolts that fastened the prisoners' chains to the walls. But what of the other ends? It says "every one's bands were loosed," not merely loosed from the walls. Moreover Paul and Silas had had their feet fast in stocks!

And now the jailor awakens to find all the doors of the prison open and naturally supposes that the prisoners have fled. It is well-known how these Roman keepers were made responsible with their lives for the prisoners entrusted to them (see 12:19), hence it is not strange to find the Philippian jailor, in his distress, drawing his sword to take his life. Suicide, he thinks, is better than disgrace and a cruel execution.

But somehow Paul found out or sensed that the jailor was about to take his life and cried aloud from the darkness: "Do thyself no harm: for we are all here" (Ver. 28). To the jailor this must have seemed amazingly humane after the rough treatment he had given Paul and Silas, yet it was one of the natural fruits of the gospel they had been proclaiming.

But what power had kept all the prisoners in their cells? We are distinctly told that "all the doors were opened--" and "every one's bands were loosed" (Ver. 26). Why did no one flee? We believe it was what they heard as Paul and Silas prayed and sang hymns, for what must have been the reaction in the heathen heart and mind to such conduct! How could they help associating the earthquake with it?

By now the jailor, so narrowly saved from committing suicide, was completely overwhelmed. Calling for lights (plural, probably torches) he "sprang in" and "came trembling" and "fell down" before Paul and Silas. So great was his reverence for them now that he did not even speak until he had "brought them out" of the dungeon. Then he asked the great question which may already have been troubling him and now had suddenly taken possession of his heart and mind. Addressing them as "Sirs" (Gr., Curiol, Lords) he entreats: "What must I do to be saved?" (Ver. 30).

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« Reply #223 on: September 01, 2003, 03:24:04 PM »

The Conversion of the Philippian Jailor (Part 2 of 2)


WHAT DID THE JAILOR MEAN?

It has been argued by some that the jailor had physical deliverance rather than the salvation of his soul in mind when he asked this question, but the evidence unites to prove that this is not so.

1. Paul and Silas had been pointed out for "many days" in Philippi as men who proclaimed "the way of salvation" (Ver. 17,18).

2. The earthquake was over. He could hardly be seeking "salvation" from that.

3. None of the prisoners had escaped, so his life need no longer be in danger from that source. Indeed, the jailor seems to have taken no immediate steps to resecure the prisoners, either because his attendants (Ver. 29) saw to this, or because the salvation of his soul was now his supreme concern. God may also have used the circumstances to cause the prisoners to stay. At any rate, had he feared Roman judgment now, his first concern would have been to make certain no prisoner would escape.

4. The earthquake, the open prison doors, the neglect of the prisoners to do that which would have insured his ruin, Paul's solicitude for his life when he was about to commit suicide; all this would tend to make him seek more than physical deliverance.

5. Paul and Silas evidently took the jailor to mean that he sought salvation from sin. They would not have promised physical deliverance in return for faith in Christ.

6. The tender solicitude of the converted jailor toward the men he had so abused, and his joy when he "with all his house," did believe, would seem to indicate that he had been under conviction of sin.

7. The references to the jailor's "house" in connection with both Paul's reply and the jailor's conversion (Vers. 31,32,33,34) harmonize with the cases of Cornelius (11:14) and Lydia (16:15) where salvation from sin was certainly in question.

How ready the apostles were with just the answer the jailor needed! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Ver. 31). This is the core of the message of grace.

When "the people" had asked John the Baptist: "What shall we do then?" he had insisted upon the fruits of repentance and of the kingdom (Luke 3:911). When a lawyer had asked our Lord: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the Lord had asked him: "What is written in the law?" and had instructed him: "This do, and thou shalt live" (Luke 10:25-28). When Peter's convicted hearers at Pentecost had asked: "What shall we do?" Peter had directed them to "repent and be baptized ... for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:37,38). But now, under Paul, the clear, pointed message is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." No matter what your sin, no matter what your ignorance, no matter what your fears about "holding on"--"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Whether to the child, with a lifetime of opportunity before him, or to the dying man with only a few moments to live, the message is still: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

The added words: "and thy house," have sometimes been taken as a promise that the faith of one member of the family secures the salvation of the whole family. If this were so all the world would of course be saved, for we are all related, but the apostle did not mean this, nor is this teaching found anywhere in the Pauline epistles. The meaning is simply: "This goes for your household too. They, as well as you, may believe and be saved."

But while the apostles came right to the point in answer to the jailor's inquiry, they did not stop there, as some evangelists and soul-winners do today. Still sick and sore, they preached "the Word of the Lord" to the jailor and to the members of his household, who had by now gathered round (Ver. 32).

Soon enough the jailor showed evidence that he had sincerely trusted Christ as his Savior, for "the same hour of the night" he took them to still another place, where water was available, and there the once brutal jailor tenderly washed their stripes. We are not told what he said when he did this, but we suspect there were many words of regret and apology.

By C. R. Stam

Reprinted from the Berean Searchlight, the official organ of the Berean Bible Society, Volume LVI Number 5

Used By Permission
 
 
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« Reply #224 on: September 03, 2003, 01:41:20 PM »

I BELIEVE...

1.  In one triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, Mary, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be both God and man.

2.  That Jesus Christ identified himself in written form in the Holy Bible as God and that one can only believe that  by choice - faith. The Bible cannot be clearly understood unless that choice is made. (1 Cor. 2:14)

3.  I believe that the only gospel to be preached for man's salvation today is the Gospel of Grace which is:


I Corinthians 15:3-4  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.



Ephesians 2:8-9  For by  grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works; lest any man should boast.


4.  That once that choice to believe is made, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and places him/her into the church which is HIS BODY (Eph. 1:22,23) and seals them unto the redemption of their physical bodies to the receipt of their glorified bodies with which they will live (and serve) eternally in heaven. This is called the doctrine of eternal security.  (Eph. 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:49-53)

5.  I believe what the Bible teaches about religion; that God instituted only one religion - the religion of Israel - and is no longer dealing with mankind on the basis of that religion because Israel was unwilling to recognize her Messiah King, incurring God's wrath (to come) upon her during the Great Tribulation, prophesied and still to come.  God has put that program aside (Rom. 11:25) and is dealing with man on the basis of a mystery plan He conceived and kept hidden in himself (before the foundation of the world) until the right time, called "due time."  (1 Tim. 2:6)

6.  I believe, therefore, that God has given us the Apostle Paul's epistles for our doctrine, to live by until he calls His Body out of the earth.  We believe that the Bible clearly teaches a catching up or a rapture of the church (the true church) and that God's only religion (of the Jewish nation) will THEN be restored.  That "kingdom come, on earth" will then be the program God will use to deal with mankind on the earth.

7.  I believe in the inerrancy of the entire  Bible and in God's ability to keep his promise to preserve his words (Ps. 12:6,7); that they therefore exist for us English speaking people today in the Authorized Version which is known as the King James Version.

8.  That while the whole Bible is written FOR us, only the Apostle Paul's epistles are written TO us - for our learning and obedience. We understand and believe that we need to study the whole of God's word in order to understand the distinctiveness of God's program and dealings with mankind, therefore knowing where to get our doctrine for today; where to find out and become a part of what God is doing today.

9.  That the "commission" for the Body of Christ is to be Ambassadors of the Mystery Message of the Grace of God "reconciling us" to God, as given to the Apostle Pauland recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21.  We have compared, studied, learned and understand that this commission is not the same as the commission given to the twelve apostles when Christ was on the earth and that we are to be obedient to "the faith" of the message given to the Gentiles by the RISEN LORD Jesus Christ from Heaven.  (Romans 15:26)

Have A GRRRRRREAT Day Grin
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