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Baptism is very important; no one who takes the Bible seriously can dispute it.  

But:

1.   Is it necessary to be saved?  
2.   Does it actually wash sins away?  
3.   Is true faith needed for one to want baptism so it saves them?

       No to all three.  It is not necessary because Christ took care of that.  
       It also doesn't wash sins away because it is a work opposite of faith.
       Finally, Faith does not make one get baptised to get saved (it will never save anyways).  Lets say a believer does not want to get baptised, is he really a believer?  Like the statement, "Saved Will Work to be saved," no.  Believing that he's sins are washed away when baptised defeats the purpose of Christ's work on the Cross - never did believe Christ can.

Ps.  Since I have school, I need to be stern - No flood!  I answer verses one-by-one - no exceptions.  So don't give me a list.

agur  

Very Good Point!I beleive there are 2 types of Baptism.First The Baptism you speak of,which is by water.The second which is the Baptism of the Holy Spirt.Jesus was Baptised so i was Baptised.You ask do we need Baptism?I say yes!

Matthew 3:13-16

Jesus says that you have to be baptized with water and the Spirit to be saved. So yes, being baptized with water is necessary for salvation.

...uggh...

     Heidi;
     Please could you tell me where it says this in GODS Word.
                           Thankyou.

3:15 - FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS: If ever there was a person who appeared to need baptism, it was not Jesus.
Jesus had come as the Servant of God, and He had served His Father flawlessly.
John the Baptist saw the perfect lifestyle of Jesus, and recognized Him for who He was.
He did not believe Jesus needed to be baptized. Jesus' reason for being baptized was exemplary: "to fulfill all righteousness".
Was John's message commissioned by God?
Yes.

Baptism is how we “call on the name of the Lord.” That is why when people are baptized the person who baptizes them proclaims aloud they are being baptized “into Jesus Christ” or “into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”   We see in Acts 2:21,38 how closely the phrase “calling on the name of the Lord” is associated with baptism. This calling on the Lord (coupled with faith and repentance) is what distinguishes baptism from merely getting wet.

 

Ananias spoke these words to Paul three days after Jesus struck down Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul had believed and acknowledged Jesus as Lord for three days at this point in time. If belief alone brought forgiveness, then his sins would have already been washed away.

 

Let’s take a closer look at this situation:

 

Here is Paul, who, after having persecuted the church of Christ, is confronted by none other than Jesus Christ Himself in his glorified state. Jesus tells Paul he will be told what he must do (Acts 22:11). Jesus did not tell him what it was he must do. No, Paul would be told by someone else what it is he must do. So while waiting for three days Paul:

 

1.)   had faith and believed in Jesus as the Son of God

2.)   fasted and prayed in repentance (Acts 9:9,11)

3.)   Yet his sins were still counted against him (Paul is told, “…wash your sins away”)

 

So for three days Paul was repenting and prayed. Do you think that just maybe, possibly, any of his prayers were asking God to forgive him? But when Ananias comes to him, Paul is told he still has sins that need to be washed away. This is indisputable Scriptural evidence that the “sinner’s prayer” is insufficient to save someone and we are NOT saved before baptism even if we have faith and repentance!

 

Notice also, Paul is not told to “pray for Jesus to come into your life.” He is not led in a prayer requesting salvation. No, Paul is told to “be baptized!” And the reason he was told to “be baptized” was that his sins were still counted against him--and it is in baptism that they are washed away.

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

Brother Love :)

Remember, don't just believe it because someone says it. Look and see what the Bible says.

Brother Love :)

Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 Acts 22:16.  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Is this part of God's word to be ignored?

Ollie, Is this part of God's word to be ignored?

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

Brother Love :)

This is very interesting,Brother Love i will do as you have said and do a study on this and post back once i have a better understanding.I know iam a sinner saved by Grace.

Amen Brother

(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Brother Love :)

First of all, we should pay attention to the "doctrines of baptisms" as written in Hebrews 6:2. According to the Bible, there are three different baptisms; the baptism of John the Baptist for repentance, the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist, and our baptism. The baptism that we receive is a confession of our faith in believing the baptism of Jesus. That is to say, we are baptized in order to confess that we believe Jesus was baptized to take away all our sins and also died on the Cross to atone them. Now you can understand Matthew 3:15 where it says, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." "Thus" here means that Jesus Himself bore all the sins of the world by being baptized by John the Baptist, the representative of all mankind.

Something i found...

Baptism is how we get into Christ.

Baptism is always accompanied by faith and repentance.

Baptism is God’s terms of surrender.

Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel.

Baptism is the external washing with water and the internal washing away of sin by God.

Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.”

Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.

Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ.

Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours)

Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.

Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.

Baptism is when we are reborn.

Baptism is an act of faith.

Baptism is how we enter the kingdom of God.

Baptism is when we are added to the body of Christ (the church).

Baptism is when we exchange our life for His.

Baptism is when we die to ourselves and come alive in Christ.

Baptism is the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is the starting gun of a race of a new life.

Baptism is proclaiming in Christ the resurrection of the dead.

Baptism is when the old dies and the new arises. In this manner we become saved.

Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.

Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus.

Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ.

Baptism is how we scripturally enter into a relationship with Christ.

Baptism is the gavel striking the bench proclaiming forgiveness of sins, the end of the old and the birth of the new.

 

BAPTISM:

is done FOR the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)

is done to SAVE us (1Peter 3:21, Acts 2:40, Mark 16:16)

Is done to WASH AWAY OUR SINS (Acts 22:16)

is done to be  REBORN to new life (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-6)

is done to CLOTHE ourselves with Christ (Gal 3:26-27)

is done so that  GOD will RESURRECT us from death (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:3-6)

is done as a REQUIRMENT to enter heaven (John 3:5)

is done to put us INTO CHRIST (Romans 6:3-6, Galatians 3:26-27, 1Corinthians 12:13)

**Food for Thought**

God’s salvation plan teaches to be saved we must:

1.)   Hear the “good news” of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:14)

2.)   Believe (Hebrews 11:6; Acts 8:37; Mark 16:16)

3.)   Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30; Mark 10:15)

4.)   Confess faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 8:36-37; Romans 10:9)

5.)   Be baptized (in water) for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:37-41; 1Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-8; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:26-27; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 8:34-39; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 4:5)

6.)   Remain faithful for the rest of our lives and carry our cross daily (Revelation 2:10; Matthew 24:13; Luke 9:23)

Wrong & Wrong

You need to do a lot more studying Bro

Brother Love :)

WHats Wrong!And yes iam still studing...

At the point of belief according to 145 scriptures that link salvation with belief/faith alone.

There is not a single passage, not even an allusion to failure to be water baptized will result in condemnaton/judgment.

John 5:24 is quite sufficient to refute the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

aw

John 3:3-8

The OT, circumsicion whcih was established with Abraham (Gen 17:10) by God when He instituted His covenant with Abraham.

This act produced the blood which ratified this first covenant according to Heb 9:18.

And this outward act was a shadow of the really teaching of Gods word, which is circumcision of the heart, because circumcision is a sign of one who has entered into a covenant with God, and  of the seed of Abraham,Who are called Jews.

If were not so, then God would never have caused the following truth to be inscribed into the Holy Scriptures;

Rom 2
17  Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18  And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19  And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20  An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21  Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Water Baptism in the NT, is a shadow of the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit spoken of by John the Baptist at (Jhn 1:33), the act of it does not save, but the individual who is water Baptized is making a public declaration of his FAITH in the Word of God.

Furthermore, that this FAITH is the real thing is evidence by the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is received by same FAITH which Abraham had
 by the children of the promise;

Rom 9
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 4
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth (gives life to) the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

All who understrand the word of God, do so because it is given to them to underdstand and believe, this final verse sums up this matter, plainly.....

Col 2
10  And ye are  complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Notice at verse 11, that whether jew or gentile, those who come to faith in Jesus, are circumcised without hands. buried with Jesus in baptism and are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who raised Him from the dead, the Holy Spirit given to them as a deposit of the Faith they now possess of the FAITH of God. (Rom 3:3)


Blessings,

Ptero

Baptism is very important; no one who takes the Bible seriously can dispute it.Not even Jesus Christ, who was baptised to fulfill all righteousness. Matthew 3: 13-17  

Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 
Acts 22:16.  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
 Acts 2:37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
Acts 2:37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?.......
 Acts 2:41.  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.......
Acts 2:47.  ......Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

       Christ thinks it is necessary.  
       Baptism is not of the law given to Moses, therefore not a work
Faith brings us to baptism.
Acts 8:26.  And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
 27.  And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
 28.  Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
 29.  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
 30.  And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
 31.  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
 32.  The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
 33.  In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
 34.  And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
 35.  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
 36.  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
 37.  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Romans 6:1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
 2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 


Have a good day.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For Christ sent me not to baptize  WOW!!!

Verse 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. WOW!!!

Ollie, Quote:
 
Baptism is very important; no one who takes the Bible seriously can dispute it.

A4C, Quote: Yes it is, only ONE Baptim Not 2, 3 or 4. Ephesians 4:5, NOT by human hands Col 2:11,12.
God The Holy Spirit is NOW the Baptizer, He Baptises the BELIEVER into Christ, which NOW is The C-H-U-R-C-H.
NO WATER.

Ollie, Quote:
Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A4C, Quote: but he that believeth not shall be damned. NOTHING about NOT being Baptized.

Ollie, Quote:
Romans 6:1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is the ONE Baptism Ephesians 4:5 with 1 Corithians 12:13
NO WATER.

HERE is a list of cults that do not follow Paul today because they require Israel's water baptism for salvation.... Jehovah's Witnesses , Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ, and others.... who you going to believe? Men or God?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Have A GRRRRRRRRRRRREAT Day ;D

"Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A4C, Quote: but he that believeth not shall be damned. NOTHING about NOT being Baptized."

It says plenty for baptism for the believer.
Simply because believing brings one to baptism.

A non believer will not be baptised, so why tell Him/her not to be?
If one does not believe one will not be baptised being in disbelief.
One that does not believe will not do any of God's will, so it is not necessary to mention it when giving the consequences of not believing.
 It is a given that the non believer will not be baptised so it is not written. A non believer is damned already so why should God's word say that " he that believeth not" and is not baptised "shall be damned". Not believing damns

OK Bro, your not going to hell because you believe in water baptism. And I know I am NOT going to hell because I do NOT.

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."



Grace & Peace  ;D

Mk 16
16    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How is it, many are that are Baptised in water do not have assurance they are saved??

Is it because they are only baptized in water, and not with the Holy Gohst??

The emphasis on being Baptized in Mk 16, is in believing, not being baptized, therefore it is possible to be baptzed, and not be saved.

If this is the case, then water baptism is not the Baptism, refferred to in Eph 4:5.
 
If this is so, then water Baptism is not what produces salvation, no  matter how many times one is water baptized.

So then baptism is that which is done by the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.  (Rom 2:29)

So Jesus, is speaking of the real Baptism at this verse, and  not of water Baptism.

Petro

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”

—James 1:22

Please answer me this one question: How is being baptized not a work of righteousness?

No one has disputed whether Baptism is or is not a work of righteousness...

However if this work (or any other work for that  matter) is counted for something which acquires or is counted for something towards salvation, then it is not of God..
Titus 3:5

Righteousness is an imputed gift, just as all other gifts given by the GRACE of God and  needed to be made a member of the Body of Christ.

If I would have posted the passage instead of focusing in on just one verse, this woulk have been clearer on my previous posts/


Rom 5
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And only the rightous do works of righteousness, and the knowledge of it is given unto them, to know it.

And this very fact is indispuable;  

2 Pet 2
20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Righteousness is required to be Saved,  both are given to the believer and grasped by faith, by the promises found in the Word of God, it is the Hope of every person whom God has saved,  it can only be attained in the present life by living in the Spirit, which has been given also by God.

The Apostle Paul makes this clear at;

Phil 3
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11  f by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Note verse 11, it is true As King David points to the blessedness  of those whom have "righteousness imputed to them without works which believe on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"; these are the ones which shall be resurrected in the end because tyheir sisn and iniquities are forgiven them. (Rom 4:4-8)

Righteousness, is part of the whole armor of God which is supplied by Him, to His soldiers.  Eph 6:14

It is also a fruit of the Spirit, I dare say..Phil 1:11, Heb 12:11

The righteous become skilled in the use of the Word of God, since they excersice their sense to discern good and evil, by reason of its  use.  Heb 5:13-14

So if Baptism is a work of righteousnes, then it is only performed bhy those who have been made righteous;
and follows believing to the saving of the SOUL.

And this is the reason why Jesus said at;

MK 16
16   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

It matters little if a person who does not believe is ever Baptized or not, the motions of going thru the act of  water baptism will produce nothing;

And my final point is that water baptism before being Baptized with the Holy Gohst, does not garauntee anything, either...

If it did, then all the infants who have ever been and are being baptized, would all come to FAITH, and the truth is, very little do..




Blessings,

Petro

Please try to understand:

James 1
1   James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”

—James 1:22
 So we should ignore this?

You do a good job of ignoring this:

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”

—James 1:22
So we should ignore this?

Yes or NO?

You do a good job of ignoring this:

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."

Do You Yes or No?

The Epistle of James is designed to help the Jew determine who is the true believer. It is written to the whole nation of Israel not just the remnant.

There will be three groups of people:

The rich - the Scribes and Pharisees (those who follow the Antichrist)
The poor - the remnant
Those in-between (these need to decide with whom they will associate) - the nation as a whole.
The temptation the remnant will face will be of a particular kind, it will not be the things that we think of when we think of being tempted today with such things as sex, drugs and alcohol, etc. The remnant believers will face the temptation to be drawn back to the apostate doctrine, back to the traditions of their fathers, the old way of worship. This is a temptation because the old is done with in God's eyes and the new has come.

Because of the religious system of that day it will appear that those who are rich are being blessed but in reality, those who follow the old system, which is under the influence of the Antichrist, will be the ones that are able to buy and sell. The poor will be those believers who have chosen not to take the mark of the beast.

When James writes about faith without works in chapter two, he writes that these works are to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. During the Tribulation period, those who do not receive the mark of the beast will not be able to buy food or clothing and if one sees another in need and has the means to help the other person then one is to show his faith by helping out the other believer.

During the Tribulation, the rich will  tell the Jews  that Jesus is not the Messiah and the reason "the remnant" is poor is because they believed that Jesus is the Messiah and He is not. The nation of Israel will need to choose which group to associate with, the rich or the poor, the Antichrist or Christ.

They are told to ask for wisdom so that they will be able to identify the true word of God. James is writing to the remnant believer to equip them to be able to endure and withstand the temptation they will face during the Tribulation, which is the next thing to happen according to the prophetic timetable.

"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh" (James 5:8 KJV)

James 1:19

Iam looking over your point and i have a open mind.Now can you please answer my qeustion with a simple yes or no to james 1:22

James 1:1 is my answer ;D

Ok i accept that.Oh ya one thing.Do we need Baptism?

 The Body Church of this dispensation is separate and distinct from Israel and the messianic Kingdom. And the Church which is called Christ's Body was not made known until it was revealed to and through Paul.In Paul's epistles it is revealed that all who now believe the Gospel that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). None of the 12 Apostles ever said that!

Further, Paul states that there is One Baptism for the Church today  (Eph.4:5). This could not be both water and Spirit baptism; for that would be two baptisms. Neither could it be water , because Paul makes it plain that it is by means of Spirit baptism that we are made members of His Body. To make it water would be to rule out the only means of becoming a member of that Body. Hence, the One baptism for the Body of Christ is Spirit baptism.

It is indeed, the One baptism of the Spirit which identifies the believer with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension (Rom. 6:3-6). Paul refers to this truth in this passage to show the inconsistency of one who had been baptized into Christ continuing to live in sin. To be baptized into Christ, (and only the Spirit can do that) means to be baptized into His death, and one who has died is freed from sin. Jon, you rightly noted that Paul did indeed baptize a few with water.

Yes, Paul did practice some water baptism in his early ministry, however ,there is no indication that he ever baptized for the remission of sins as did the Twelve at Pentecost. If his (Paul's) baptizing had had such significance he would never have said that Christ sent him not to baptize, and that he thanked God he had baptized so few.

It is evident from Paul's epistles that the Holy Spirit was imparted and salvation was received completely apart from water baptism. You will note that besides baptism, Paul did many other things in his early ministry in the Acts period which were associated with the dispensation under which he was saved (dispensation of Israel) and from which he emerged as the dispenser of revelation for this new dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-9).

Therefore, water baptism is not an act of salvation, but an act of obedience.Can we agree?

NO!

Was Paul sent to Baptize?

Every one of the twelve had to emphatically confess, "Christ sent me to baptize". But, Paul just as emphatically declared: "Christ sent me not to baptize". Now, is there any difference in these two statements? Those who water baptize say that there is not one bid of difference! Well, what do words mean then? Was Paul lying? Didn't Paul say what he meant to say? Why do men have to twist his words? Some say , that Paul's main business was preaching the gospel and that he delegated the less important work of baptizing converts to others.

But I choose to believe Paul when he said, "Christ sent me not to baptize." Why then, should I be called a heretic when I commit no sin other than to take the words of the great apostle Paul and tell the world that "Christ sent me not to baptize."?

If water baptism is indeed an act of obedience to Christ; if it is one of the ordinances of the church; if it is a sacramental means of grace whereby we receive forgiveness; if it is the divinely appointed means of confessing Christ to the world; if it is our burial with Christ; if it is the answer of a good conscience toward God; how can we understand Paul's light treatment of it? If water baptism was necessary; if it accomplished anything; if it was a basis for Christian fellowship, how could Paul in any sense of the word say: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. (1Cor. 1:14). Listen, if water baptism is any of these things that men and tradition claim for it, is it not strange that we do not find even one world of positive instruction in all of Paul's epistles for its observance? Paul gives us definite instruction concerning the observance of the Lord's

Table and is careful to state that he received this truth by revelation from the Lord. There were more sins and trouble at Corinth over the wrong observance of the Lord's Table that were caused by baptism, but Paul didn't therefore thank God that he had not given them the Lord's Table, nor did he state, "Christ sent me not to observe the Lord's Table. The argument from silence is a strong one, and I think there is no valid reason for practicing water baptism in this new grace dispensation.

Paul gives no command to water baptize in any of his epistles. But not only does Paul omit any command to water baptize in any of his epistles, he clearly states exactly the opposite--- "Christ sent me not to baptize." Hence, if you choose to water baptize, don't fault the liberals and spiritualizers who choose to make any other part of the Bible to mean something different from what it says.

If we fail to recognize the transitional character of the book of Acts we will never understand Paul's practice of water baptism , nor many other things---circumcision, vows, animal sacrifices, tongues, miracles, etc. of his early ministry. You see, Paul was saved during the Pentecostal administration of the gospel of the Kingdom, and Ananias was sent to him with the same message as was presented to any Jewish believer of that day, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). It was out of this dispensational situation that Paul emerged into the new dispensation which God committed to him.

This emergence was not a sudden one, but it was gradual, covering a period of about 25 years. As Paul progressively received more and more revelation of God's purpose and program in this present dispensation of grace (Acts 26:16; 2 Cor. 12:1), he came to realize the significance of the omission of water baptism from his commission and the abiding reality of the One Baptism of (Eph. 4:5.)

By the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he had no doubt realized these things fully and clearly, even to the extent that he could thank God that he had baptized none there, save a very few. People talk about unity today, but baptism is one of the most divisive issues of all however, I believe that the only basis for real unity, is God's truth for this dispensation of grace concerning the One Baptism of that distinctive body truth which we find only in Paul's epistles. Nothing less than the real baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ can unify Christendom.

Believers need to understand that water baptism is scriptural; it just needs to be placed in the right dispensation, and then all becomes clear. Only confusion and disunity results from trying to place things into the wrong dispensation.

Thus, once again, dispensational Bible study comes to the rescue and shows us how and why things are the way they are. It is only when you fail to study from the dispensational viewpoint that things become confusing and get out of hand.

I dont know where you stand.So i assume your are against water baptism?How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?Please explain?

**As to the topic i feel the answer is no.**

You should atleast read my many posts, I believe in "ONE" Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). You read that book Jabez, and you seem to understand it, why are you having problems with the messages I post. THINK ABOUT IT

Have A GRRRRRREAT Day ;D

I mean no hard feeling,and iam sorry if i havent grasped your full posting.I understand where you are coming from.My mind keeps going to Matthew 28:19 and John 3:5.I have enjoyed our converse today,but its time to go hunting...lol

GOD BLESS Brother!!

OK Bro, Dont kill Bambi ;D

Grace & Peace

Why did Paul say he had baptised two others in these same verses?Also the household of Stephanas.

 Paul said what He said because of the division among the Corinthians about calling themselves after men. He was glad he had not baptised any of them because of their division. This division over names concerned Paul that if he had baptised any of them they might say he did it in his name. Therefore he was glad he had not baptised any of them except those mentioned because they would have twisted it. It does not mean Paul did not believe in the salvation of baptism. And it is true Paul was sent to preach the gospel not baptise. Anyone can baptise.

 1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
 11.  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
 12.  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
 13.  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
 15.  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
 16.  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 17.  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


Why do people pick and choose only the scriptures they want to observe and ignore the others?
It all has to be put together for the complete will of God for man.

Quote Ollie: Why do people pick and choose only the scriptures they want to observe and ignore the others?
It all has to be put together for the complete will of God for man.

Amen

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 1 of 2)

 

BAPTISM: means To Place Into, or On; For The Purpose Of Identification

It is a surprise to many people, including Christians, to learn that the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to immerse into water! Of course there is a "water baptism" in the Bible, but the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to place into water. "Water Baptism" is only one (1) of twelve (12) different baptisms spoken of in the Scriptures. Years of tradition have taught most people to think of "water" every time they read the word "baptism" in their Bible. This has caused great confusion.

Just a simple examination of the usage of the term "BAPTISM" in the Bible will teach us NOT to think of water as part of the meaning of the word, but to substitute the meaning "PLACE INTO" or "PLACE ON." The context in each case will determine what it is that someone or something is being placed into.

We do not have the space to look into all twelve (12) different usages of the term, but we will look at five (5) of them. There are three (3) "BAPTISMS" found in just one verse, Matthew 3:11, which says:

"I INDEED BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: BUT HE THAT COMETH AFTER ME IS MIGHTIER THAN I, WHOSE SHOES I AM NOT WORTH TO BEAR: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE."

 

BAPTISM #1

"WATER BAPTISM"

(John Baptized with water)

John the Baptist placed people  into water or, as some may prefer it said, John placed water on people. Either way John's Baptism was a "water baptism." Its purpose was to identify the believing remnant of Israel with their Messiah - Jesus Christ. (By the way, the reason Jesus Christ was water baptized was for the same reason, only in reverse.) According to John 1:31, Jesus Christ was identified to Israel, and Israel to Him, through water baptism. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus Christ who announced to Israel His coming and prepared them to be received by their King through the cleansing of water baptism. This is why John announced that one greater--with a greater baptism--was coming.

 

BAPTISM #2

"BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

The greater person John was speaking of was the Lord Jesus Christ. According to the testimony of John, when Christ came He would have a greater baptism. John baptized with water, but Jesus Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This was a reference to the Day of Pentecost which took place after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back into heaven - see Acts 1:5-8 and Acts 2:1-5. From heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ "Poured Out" or placed His Spirit on that believing remnant of Israel, just as John promised and as was predicted in Joel 2:28-32.

 

BAPTISM #3

"BAPTISM WITH FIRE"

John not only introduced and identified the believing remnant of Israel to Jesus Christ, he also warned unrepenting and unbelieving Israel that Jesus Christ would have two (2) baptisms when he came. Believing Israel would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is the imparting of Life. Unbelieving Israel would be baptized with fire. This "baptism of fire" is the judgement of the fires of hell, according to Matthew 3:12. This will take place when Jesus Christ shall place unbelievers into the fires of hell. Thank the Lord, Jesus Christ has saved us who believe from that baptism!

Already in this one verse we have seen three (3) different types of BAPTISM; baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and even baptism with fire. Notice only one involved water!

Let this be a lesson to you. Do not think of "water" every time you read the word "baptism." Let the Bible tell you what the baptism is into. Then be sure to believe what the Bible says and not what some men will say the Bible means.

 

BAPTISM #4

"BAPTISM INTO DEATH"

For the fourth (4th) baptism, see Mark 10:38,39,45. In this passage a baptism yet laid ahead for the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the future for James and John as well.

When our Lord spoke of a baptism that he was facing, he was speaking of his death on the Cross. He was placed on the cross for the purpose of having our sins placed on him. And, by identifying Himself with our sins, He paid for them in His death. Jesus Christ was baptized into our death. This is also spoken of in Luke 12:50 and again in I Peter 3:21. It is called:

"THE BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES"!

In the case of James and John this baptism speaks of their martyr's death. Jesus Christ prophesied and history has recorded that both James and John were placed into death preaching the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They died for the sake of others - so that others may hear the gospel and be saved. This is the baptism that Paul was speaking about in I Corinthians 15:29.

 

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 2 of 2)

BAPTISM #5

"BAPTISM INTO CHRIST"

The fifth (5th) and final BAPTISM we shall look at is a baptism which is taught exclusively by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. It is the fact that the Apostle Paul mentions water baptism only one time in all of his epistles. This one time is found in I Corinthians 1:13-17. As water baptism continued into the New Gentile age, it brought confusion and division (just as it is doing in the churches today). Paul's solution was simple: stop water baptizing! But how could he decide to stop? Didn't Jesus Christ command him to baptize? No! After Paul thanked God and he didn't baptize more than he did, he states in verse 17:

"FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT."

Paul was the Apostle of a new age of God's grace. His message and ministry to the Gentiles was distinctly different from the message and ministry of the Twelve Apostles to Israel. Water baptism belonged to the message God had for the nation of Israel. However, there is a baptism taught by the Apostle that is for this age. Be careful to notice it is not water baptism. Paul writes in I Corinthians 12:13.

"FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT."

The baptism that the Apostle Paul taught was a baptism into Christ. This baptism is the placing of the Believer (today) into the Body of Christ. It is important for you to realize that in I Corinthians 12:13 (just quoted), the baptizer is not a minister but God the Holy Spirit. From this verse, we can also see that the Holy Spirit does not place the believer into water but into Christ! Here again, we need to remember to believe what the Bible say, and not what men say the Bible means.

This "Baptism I into Christ" is the baptism that identifies the Believer with the saving work of the Cross. Romans 6:3-5 teaches this baptism so clearly. The moment I trusted in Jesus Christ as my Savior, the Holy Spirit of God placed me into Christ's death (the cross where my sins were paid for) and into His burial (the payment is complete) and into Christ's resurrection (where I now have a new life in Christ). Since this "baptism" is the work of the Holy Spirit, some have properly termed this "Spiritual Baptism." Without a doubt it is this baptism that Paul teaches throughout his epistles as seen in Romans 6:3-5, I Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, and Colossians 2:10-13.

Our baptism into Christ is the basis for our forgiveness of sins. This is the real baptism that supersedes any ritual baptism previously taught. It is the reality of all that God has accomplished in my behalf through Jesus Christ!

To protect the truth of this baptism, God instructs us in Ephesians 4:1-6 to:

"KEEP (GUARD) THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT..."

We guard this unity by holding to, and defending His sevenfold unity:

"THERE IS ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT, EVEN AS YE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD, AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL."

According to this verse, there is only one (1) baptism today for the Believer which we are to hold and guard. This baptism is not water baptism. It is the BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. It is the work of the Holy Spirit Himself which has created a spiritual unity all of the Believers today, in Christ. Anyone who is still water baptizing is causing confusion and division by practicing a baptism which we have not been told to continue doing in the church epistles; and by believing in at least two baptisms for today, when the Scriptures tell us to keep the unity of the Spirit by holding to His one baptism.

Putting it all together, this is what we see. John the Baptist offered the nation of Israel forgiveness of their sins through water baptism. Those of the nation who received the baptism with the Holy Kingdom and will be raised to go into the Kingdom which was promised to them and was being proclaimed by Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry. But the baptism of fire did not come as John said it would. The judgement of the baptism of fire has been postponed along with the offer of the Kingdom promised to Israel. In the meantime, God has raised up the Apostle Paul with a message of grace which goes out today to both the rejecting Jew and to Gentiles concerning an equal opportunity they have been given (through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection) to be saved, justified, and forgiven. Upon believing this message, God the Holy Spirit is baptizing these Believers into the Body of Christ. And "IN CHRIST" we have life, and hope, and an inheritance.

Israel was offered life, and hope, and inheritance according to the promises of God in the Old Testament. But we who are saved today were never promised these things. Yet they have been given to us by GRACE.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

PRACTICAL POINT:

If I have been made part of the Body of Christ through the baptism by the Spirit at the moment I believed the gospel; and if it were yet possible that I could lose my salvation and end up in hell, then part of the Body of Christ would be in hell.

This is not possible. I am secure in Christ because God the Holy Spirit put me there. I did not put myself there. Therefore I cannot take myself out. And since it is the Holy Spirit who also seals me in Christ, I am His forever!

II Timothy 2:11-13 teaches exactly this:

"IT IS A FAITHFUL SAYING: FOR IF WE BE DEAD WITH HIM, WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM"

This is the guarantee we have from the Scriptures based upon Believers baptism by the Spirit into Christ's death, burial, resurrection. The verses continue:

"IF WE SUFFER, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: IF WE DENY HIM, HE ALSO WILL DENY US:"

This verse promises us a reward of reigning with Jesus Christ if we are faithful to suffer for Him now. The second half of the verse warns that if we choose not to faithfully suffer for Jesus Christ in this life, then He will deny us the reward of a reigning position with Him in heaven. It does not mean He will deny us heaven because the previous verse has already guaranteed that "WE SHALL LIVE WITH HIM," and the following verse explains why:

"IF WE BELIEVE NOT, YET HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

If in our lifetime we depart from the faith--become unfaithful--even to the point of denying that we believe in Jesus Christ, the verse says, "YET HE (CHRIST) ABIDETH FAITHFUL." We may be unfaithful to Him, but He will remain faithful to us and keep His word by giving us eternal life anyway. The verse explains why He would do this: "HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." The believer is part of the Body of Christ and therefore cannot end up in hell. Jesus Christ will not allow it.

Does this security in Jesus Christ teach that we can now go out and live in sin? No, actually the Scriptures teach the opposite. This security in Jesus Christ will teach us not to live in sin. If you will keep reading all of Romans chapters 6,7, and 8, you will find out our baptism into Jesus Christ has freed us from the power of sin, so that we are no longer a slave to sin. No longer must sin reign in our lives. When sin raises it's ugly head, and we give in to it's temptation, we are forgiven for Christ's sake. But at the same time, the power to put away sin, and to go on living for the Lord, comes through KNOWING you are set free in Christ Jesus. Do as Romans 6:11 instructs - RECKON YOURSELF DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE UNTO GOD!

If you learn anything at all from this book, let it be this: you are hopeless and helpless in yourself to be good enough or to do anything that could please God enough to give you eternal life. However, because of what Jesus Christ has done for you on the Cross, God in his grace is free to receive you when your faith rests in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. By trusting only in the blood of Jesus Christ for your Salvation, God is free to give you eternal life, declaring you righteous because he see you "IN CHRIST." (Philippians 3:9)

"AND BE FOUND IN HIM (CHRIST) NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH."

jabez,


In your mind, is there a difference between what you have written herein;  

"How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?"


which is not found in the Bible and;

............................."the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."  

Found in the following verses; (Mat 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jhn 1:33, Acts 1:5,


Now Jesus, was not baptized with the Holy Ghost, He was baptized with water  by John the Baptist, and according to;

Mat 3
16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Now before this happened, John said to Jesus;

14  .....I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Jesus never needed to be baptized with the Holy Ghost, since He was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), and according to the testimony of Luke at (Acts 10:38) Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit by God the Father.

Now if you go back to 1 Tim 3:16, for a moment, you will see, this verse is clearly speaking of Jesus and accortding to this verse  Jesus was justified in the Spirit (not by the Spirit);  

Abraham was justified by Faith, in the Spirit also, (not by circumcision) the scripture plainly says he believed God and it was counted (or imputed) unto him for righteousness.

If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then John would never have written the reason why he came baptizing with water; he said he did it to make Jesus known to the nation of Israel (John 1:29-31)

Note;

29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now I am going to leave it hear with you, but; knowing what the scriptures mdeclare to this point.

I would ask myself this question if I believed, water baptism was necessary for salvation or what the purpose of water baptism is;

If John Baptized with water, for the purpose of making Jesus known to Israel, what does it signify; when someone desires to be baptized with water?

If not,  that He knows HIM who Baptizeth with the Holy Ghost

Sounds like a public declaration;

Now, since The wife or husband and their children are sanctified (1 Cor 7:14) by the believing wife or husband, it only stands to reason that entire familys were baptized, such as Cornelius at Acts 10, but it doesn't mean that every person in the family especially among the children or infants knew the Lord, or, rather was known by the Lord, it simply means they had been set aside by God to hear the Gospel of Grace, which the parents would teach them, with the help of the Holy Ghost.

Final point;   Baptism of the Holy Ghost; needs to be defined, I am not sure its teaching,  is biblical, and this is the reason, WHY, there is division in this matter..

I think these words need to be defined..

Blessings,

Petro

ollie,

I am asking myself, do you know what the saying;

"Baptism of the Holy Ghost"  means??

If so, how does it compare to;

"Baptism with the Holy Ghost",  

please note that it is Jesus who does the Baptizing with the Holy Ghost..according to; the Gospels..

  Petro

I leave for a few hours and my post is buried under two pages!   :D  Ooooh well...Petro, you said that it isn't an issue of whether or not it is a work of righteousness.  I say that it should be!  And, btw, I agree with you.   ;)


My point is simply, that regardless, it is still a work of righteousness.  According to God's Word - this work is not our salvation, but rather an indication of the salvation we now have as believers.  :)

Allinall,

I am happy we agree.

I do not see it, as a work of man, that is to say, since I have already stated, that Water Baptism does not accomplish anything towards salvation, it is simply a work of obedience to the Lords Command, to be Baptized (by other men), and is obeyed by them that have already been saved, at the point of Water Baptism, a public declaration of being united to Christ, and since water baptism is (or should be a public matter), it involves confessing Him as Lord and Savior.  

I see the real thing, (work of righteousness) as being accomplished by our Lord, and imputed on our behalf towards our account.  

The problem I have with calling it a work of righteousness of man, is that this is not made clear in scripture, what is clear is that it is a work of righteousness performed by God himself.

I see it in 1 Tim 3:16, at the verse I refernced, which says

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,

Isa 41
10  Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


2 Cor 5, says;
21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


We cannot stand before God, unless with be clothed in the righteousness of God, Jesus is our righteousness, this is what Paul said when

Phil3
7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So summing it up, we can say;  

Faith in the righteousness of God, will produce righteous works by them whom HE has declared righteous...

The problem for me, is then hear come those who are unlearned, and not understanding this they stumble at the word, and begin to believe their righteous works produce something.

Suffice it to say, I believe we Christians should simply present our bodies a living sacriufice, to HIM, which is our reasonable saervice, give Him glory for any works we may do, and not look back but press on to the high calling of God.  

To quote the Apostle.

God Bless,

Petro

I agree!  I just simply put the "work" that we claim water baptism to be, and therefore inadequate for salvific grace, as one of those works God works in us.  And I can relate and understand your concern with people who begin to rely upon those works as the work that is sanctifying them.  Again, I define obedience as the door through which God, by the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His word conforms us into the image of His Son.  There are works we perform, or rather commands we obey, that God uses in our lives.  But it is God Who has begun the good work, and will perform it until that day.   :)

Quote from: Jabez on October 18, 2003, 03:41:54 PM
I dont know where you stand.So i assume your are against water baptism?How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?Please explain?

**As to the topic i feel the answer is no.**
 
 


jabez,


In your mind, is there a difference between what you have written herein;  

"How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?"


which is not found in the Bible and;

**Iam not sure i understand your qeustiom to me?

If you mean is there a differense between water baptism and that of the Holy Spirit,Yes.

jabez,

I simply ask the question, because, those who are of the pentecostal persusasion, always use these words; as thou the Holy Spirit is the one that baptizeth.

The scriptures are clear it is Jesus, who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, I am not sure what is meant by baptism of the Holy Ghost., whoever uses these words, seems to interpret them to mean something, but only the person stating these can define it.

I simply do not see the words as being Biblical.. they appear as words that may be but, clearly they are of mans own concoction..and, what they mean is questionable, for me...

Perhaps this is why, there is division and no agreement can be had between bible believers and them that claim belief in the bible.

In order to speak the same things, we need to use the same words, it would appear to me, note the verse Ollie, put forth;

1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Maybe this is a small point, but if there is no agreement, maybe not..


Blessings,

Petro

Allinall,

Amen,

It is ALL of God, perseverance is that of the Spirit, and can only be grasped by men living in the Spirit who receive and understand the things of the Spirit..of God.


Blessings,

Petro

I agree Petro!

O.K.
So I’m late in the discussion. How about I throw in something totally different.
Throughout the bible water represents the gospel. It is parabolic language.
Jesus spoke of this living water:

John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

When someone becomes saved they cannot help but tell others. Remember what Jesus told the Samaritan woman about water? Some time read Numbers 20 with the idea that it is the Gospel flowing out of Christ.

Numbers 20:10  And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Numbers 20:11  And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

There are more references. False teachers as wells without water. The garden of Eden:

Genesis 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden;

The garden was in Eden. To irrigate you bring water in to your garden, you don’t remove water to irrigate your garden.

Any way when we are baptized by water it is usually an indication that we are under the hearing of the Gospel.
There is an exception to that that I’ll try to explain a little later.
To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications. As in:

Mark 7:4  And when they come from the market, except they wash {baptizo}, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized {baptizo} every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Next time you read the word ‘baptize’ substitute the word ‘wash’ and see if you understand it a little differently.
To be washed in the name of Christ means to be washed in the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The gospel relates to salvation by the blood of Christ. Therefore water is used as a substitute for the Lords blood.
It was necessary for the priesthood to be cleansed by the sprinkling of water.

Numbers 8:6  Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
Numbers 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Even if this was washing the dirt off of their body you are not going to get very clean with sprinkling.
Jesus came as the high priest. He was not recognized as such. He could not go to the temple and have this rite, of ceremonial washing, done.
Thus it was necessary for Jesus to perform this washing through John the Baptist. Only as a priest could He have the complete authority to pay for our sins.
Jesus’ baptism was for ceremonial purposes.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I have no wish to argue or debate on this topic. I simply wish to state a view for what it is worth.

Prior to the cross, there were all kinds of rituals and ceremonies dealing with cleansing and forgiveness of sin. In my opinion, water baptism was one of them. There were also sacrifices made for forgiveness of sin. Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice and payment for sin. After the cross, the Holy Spirit is revealed in the Scriptures. Jesus Christ ascended back to heaven, but the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) remained as a comforter and guide, living in the heart of the individual believers who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses and the baptism Paul spoke of is not a ritual or ceremony, rather by the Holy Spirit of God in the heart, inward and real as opposed to outward and ceremonial. This one baptism is only done once and the believer is baptized into the Church which is the Body of Christ, a Church not made with human hands. There is no other cleansing that can compare, and the result is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. This is the baptism I believe in. I understand why many people believe differently, and I have no desire to harm the faith of another brother or sister in Christ with this belief. If a person is truly saved, they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with or without the outward ceremony of water baptism.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Very well put BEP you always have something good to say that makes sense to me!Thank you!You know the more ive read and studied,this is what is on my heart.Water Baptism is a symbol of our faith,and our acceptense of Jesus Christ.The best is still to come,when the Holy Spirit fills us!This is the greatest!

Oklahoma Howdy to Jabez,

Thanks Brother. It is unfortunate that this and many other issues cause so much division between brothers and sisters in Christ. When I saw the reply to my post so quickly, I was thinking it would be negative. It is my opinion that a person could study the Gospel of God's Grace for several lifetimes and not uncover all of the GOOD NEWS! of the cross and what it actually meant. I'm certainly not saying that I have the all of the right answers, but I can say with 1000% certainty that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Saviour and I will spend eternity with HIM. Assurance of Salvation is another wonderful TRUTH in the Gospel of God's Grace. Man is weak and uncertain, but IN CHRIST man is a new creature. Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen to what has been said;

I am reminded, that the baptism with which Jesus was baptized by John, if it would have been the real thing, He would not have spoken of another Baptism, please notice;

Luke 13
49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50  But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51  Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The division which our Lord speaks of at verse 51, is not between them that have been born of incorruptible seed,  spiritual brethern, but between the natural seedline, members of the same household, between them that do not believe Gods Word and those that do..

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness.

Whosoever has not the eternal assurance of His blood and righteousness does not belong to Him..

Because they have NOT believed

"the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."  1 Jhn 5:11

And since it is God that washes away our sin, water baptism is only a shadow of the real Baptism with which, we are Baptized.


Blessings,

Petro

Joh 3:22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:26  And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 4:1  When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2  (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Jesus baptized, yet, He did not baptize, but his disciples did. Paul admitted to baptizing some yet said that he was not sent to baptize. I believe that Paul simply let others do the baptizing for him just as Jesus did. Paul's concern was that some would think he baptized in his own name. He was not opposed to baptism itself.

Water baptism is not for regeneration but for salvation. Noah was already a child of God by faith before he was saved from the judgement passed on the world by water. The water baptism (flood) he underwent separated him from the world. When the children of Israel were baptized into the Red Sea they were separated from Egypt which came under judgement. Water baptism is related to the world; it is the mark of discipleship to Jesus. It separates you from the world system of religion and politics. Their is a judgement of the world coming, and now is, that baptism saves us from. Jesus plainly commanded all Jews and Gentiles to be baptized having believed. To disobey is to risk being judged with the world. There are two opposing worlds involved. In baptism we cross over from one to the other.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Every creature means gentiles too! Someone on this thread said that baptism is not for the Gentiles. Jesus disagrees.

Peter says that water baptism saves us. Notice it does not say it regenerates us?

1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is the answer of regeneration (a good conscience). If you believe the Gospel and are regenerated, you answer with baptism in water. "Repent and be baptized". To say we do not have to be baptized is a slap in the face of Jesus, Peter, Paul, Luke etc.

To not be baptized as a believer is an oxymoron. Baptism follows regeneration as an act of obedience to the Lords commandment. "If you love me keep my commandments."

Disobey at your own risk.

Salvation is the coming out of the world system to be identified with Christ. Water baptism is the means Jesus chose for this coming out. The worlds religions and political systems may persecute you for it but remember, even now judgement is passed upon this world. Save yourself from this perverse generation.

 Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:

asaph

Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Water baptism is not in question here. What is refered to here is regenerational baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ. There is only one entry into Christ. Religion or politics cannot bring you into Christ. Oneness of the Spirit is kept by faith in this. Water baptism is not opposed to this because it does not regenerate but saves. You cannot be saved unless you are regenerated first. Salvation is related to the kosmos (the world system) and the judgement God has already passed on it. We are saved from God's wrath.

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Every good gift that God offers us is given to meet and counter a contrasting evil. He give us justification because there is condemnation. He gives us eternal life because there is death. He offers us forgiveness because there are sins. He brings us salvation because there is a world system (kosmos).
The world, the flesh and the devil are opposed to the three divine persons. The flesh is against the Holy Spirit. Satan is against Jesus as Lord. The world (kosmos) is against the Father as Creator. The world system always opposes God and the world is what baptism saves us from. This is how God sees it. We come out of a world which satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God. In Islamic countries this is very evident. If you are baptized there you usually face terrible hardship or death. They see clearly that you are no longer of their world and let you know it. Because baptism is a public event, a confession of faith, it brings you into a definite
separation from the world. This is the salvation that water baptism brings. You may be persecuted for it but God delivers you from the wrath to come.

This is how I see it.

asaph

asaph,

There is no evidence at all, that Jesus baptized, in fact the written record herein is very carefull to tell us, that Jesus, Himself did not Baptize, but His disciples did.

This baptism of water, was begun by John for the express purpose of manisfesting Christ to the nation Israel, as the one who would Baptize with the Holy Ghost, John bare this record (Jhn 1:19-34)

John's baptism is referred to as "unto remission of sins", or "baptism of repentance" (Mk 1:4, Lk 2:2) and Jesus who was baptized by John, was not baptized for the remission of sin, neither for repentance,  at all,  that John's baptism was from above is evident since he was sent by God to baptize with water (and he tells us why he cames baptizing with water) Jhn 1:31.

Jesus was not baptized by John for the reasons mentioned above, but as a symbol of His identification with sinful mankind.

Before His ascension Jesus commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to all the world, baptizing them all who believed this saving message in the name of the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mk 16:15-16)



Note that Verse 21 begins with the words the like figure meaning water baptism is the shadow,of the reral baptism administered by Jesus, and same verse  above, clearly explains, that physical washing (water baptism) is nothing but  the answer of a good conscience toward God, IS.

In fact Peter in the previous chapter , elaborates on this very thing at verse;

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This birth of the Word of God, occurs because of Faith  in the only begotten Son of God, which is given to every  believer at the moment of Salvation, this is the new birth, by the will of God. (Jhn 1:11-13)

Men do not love the brethern of whom, Jesus is, until being regenerated by the Holy Ghost, evidenced by this gift which is received in these earthen vessels until after one is saved, this is the evidence made clear from 1 Pet 1:22-23.

Only then can anyone obey the commandments given by Him.

Obeidence to Gods Word precedes Salvation, which then is followed by keeping the Lords NEW commandments in included those engraven in the fleshly tablets of our new hearts.

Blessings,  
Petro

AMEN! Brother Petro,

I love your expression of hope above. There is a beautiful contrast and comparison here. A hope based on the blood and righteousness of Jesus is ROCK SOLID! In this context, it is only called "hope" because we have not yet received all the Promises of God in this earthly body of clay. The Scriptures speak of these promises as surely as if they had already been fulfilled. There is no greater reality than a PROMISE FROM ALMIGHTY GOD!

The other contrast and comparison regards the Righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to undeserving children. If my hope was based on me, I would have no hope because I have no righteousness apart from the blood of Jesus Christ. God's Love, God's Grace, and God's GIFT of HIS SON on the cross in my stead is also my HOPE. Thanks be unto God for HIS Unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Asaph,

Yes, I do consider you to be a brother because I believe that you have Jesus Christ in your heart. You may not believe the same of me because of our different views of baptism. I would hope not. I am very happy to see you back on Christians Unite. We missed you!

I see that you are genuine and dedicated to your belief about baptism. I would hope you feel the same way about me. I decided before I made the post that I would not argue or debate this topic, so I won't. I simply tell you that I think we will spend eternity together with Jesus because of HIS shed blood and our faith in HIM as our personal Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The Scriptures contain several water baptism ceremonies which we believe are related to God's earthly kingdom purposes concerning Israel and the nations (Acts 2:36-38; 13:24), but the Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13). Therefore this Church does not practise the ordinance of water baptism BUT recognising the differences in understanding on the part of sincere believers in this Church and from other denominations who are our beloved brother and sisters in Christ, grants the liberty to its members in grace to adhere to their own convictions on the subject, as long as they do not invest any saving merit in water baptism, or make the subject a matter of contention in the Church.

I agree with the above doctrine

Brother Love  :)

EPHESIANS 4:5 with 1 CORINTHIANS 12:3

By this one baptism, I am placed into Christ and Christ into me. I become one with Him as a member of His body.

By this one baptism, I'm not only in Christ, but I'm sealed in Him forever.

By this one baptism, I have been seated in the heavenlies and have been blessed with all spiritual blessings.

By this one baptism, I've become one with Him and one with each member of Christ's Body forever.

I believe in baptism - this greatest baptism in all the Bible, baptised into the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

A Final Word . . .
Maybe you've been baptised with water or had some kind of "religious" experience, but you can receive this real baptism. The Lord Jesus died on the cross to bear my sins and your sins, to pay for them once for all time. Whoever you are, no matter where you've come from, no matter what you've ever done, if you have never trusted in Him, He's waiting for you and He's inviting you now to trust in Him as your Savior. Stop trying to save yourself. Stop depending on a church, a sacrament, some ritual prayers, or a religion. God will save you tonight if you will simply put your faith in, and rely on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. At that very moment, God the Holy Spirit will baptize you and will place you into the body of the Lord Jesus Christ. You could never be closer to God than that. If you want to be saved right now, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God will save you.

AMEN & AMEN

Grace & Peace

Thank you BL that was very well said!

Thanks to you all for your responses. It is all very interesting. BEP, you indeed have not received the grace of God in vain. You are well received. Thank you! The Lord bless you all as you seek Jesus. BL Jesus is the reality of all ordinances but that does not preclude us entering into them, especially communion and baptism. We only hurt ourselves by not practicing them.

asaph

907 baptizw baptizo bap-tid’-zo

from a derivative of 911; TDNT-1:529,92; verb

AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words.  Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough.  There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! (Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989). I am sorry I don't have a link I can give you for this.
It is in my bible translations program.
For what it is worth I believe that sprinkling is proper but this is a very good way of looking at this process.

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  
 

Note that Verse 21 begins with the words the like figure meaning water baptism is the shadow,of the reral baptism administered by Jesus, and same verse  above, clearly explains, that physical washing (water baptism) is nothing but  the answer of a good conscience toward God, IS.

Petro,
I do not see what your argument is. As I said, baptism does not regenerate us. It is the answer that we give in response to regeneration. I was regenerated by faith my response was baptism.  

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Now if I am regenerated by God through faith what is my response?
The answer is baptism. My response is also carried out by faith. I am baptized by faith. Remember the gospel is from faith to faith.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Some would say that there are two gospels, one for the Jews and the other for the gentiles. I disagree. We all must be baptized in obedience to the faith. Look at the testimony of scripture.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Act 8:5  Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The above verses are sufficient to prove that baptism in water is neccessary for Jewish, Samaritan, and Gentile believers.

asaph

 

QUOTE:asaph

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  


The eight souls that got saved DID NOT GET WET ;D

All 8 Of Them On The Ark ;D


Grace & Peace

Where does it say baptism is a work?

Huh? The Israelites were baptized into the Red Sea and did not get wet either, but they were baptized. The significance is passing through water which signifies death, and crossing over to the other side which signifies resurrection. If you are not baptized you are clearly disobeying the Lord's command. That's your business. But when you attempt to persuade others to disobey then it becomes my business.

1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Both the flood and the Red sea crossing baptisms.

If we neglect to do certain commands we come under judgement. Even not discerning the Lords body in communion will bring one under judgement.

1Co 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Why bring unneccessary chastening upon yourself?

Peter commanded Cornelius and family to be baptized, how are you exempt?

asaph

 

QUOTE A4C: The eight souls that got saved DID NOT GET WET - All 8 Of Them On The Ark ;D

QUOTE asaph:
 The Israelites were baptized into the Red Sea and did not get wet either.

A4C, and thats me I have the One Baptism its a Dry one ;D

Grace & Peace

asaph,

I disgaree with you totally, this is the other Gospel you believe and promote.

You jump to conclusions, at the git go.

I called your attention to 1 Pet 1:22,

Purifcation (how do you define purification?) of the soul comes from obeying the truth according to Peter.

Baptism according to the verse you put forth at Acts 2:38. that famous verse, everyone who places there finger on their salvation on water baptism, is preceded  by repentance, not before.

God commanded the Apostles to baptize them who believed the Gospel, no one can believe unless it is given them to believe, remember this is the verse which upset you,

You started ranting that there was nothing you could DO to save yourself in that last thread you posted before you took your hiatus.  

You want to put your two mites into salvation.

God commands everyone every where to repent, according to Paul at Acts 17:30, mans response is to repent;  [b[this is the answer of a good conscience towards God[/b], it is at this point God gives men Faith to believe in the one they could never believe in without supernatural intervention.

If God commands man to repent, He expects every man everywhere to do exactly that; not go and baptize himself in water.

There are plenty of people running around that have been baptized in water and do not believe the Gospel.


Act 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The above verses are sufficient to prove that baptism in water is neccessary for Jewish, Samaritan, and Gentile believers.

asaph  

asaph,

You read the same verses I do, and it is clear the believed, before they were baptized with water, they believed because they had received Faith to believe, and were sealed by the Spirit of Promise.

They all believed first, then they were baptized in water; they believed because they had been given faith to believe, signifying, that they had received the Holy Spirit.

Note the testimony of Paul at the first council at Jerusalem;

Acts 15
6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness,
giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

This is Peters testimony to all the Apostles and Elders, now take note, how it happened;

Acts 10
34  Then Peter opened his mouth,......................
44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can you,stand there and argue, against scripture, and say that it is water baptism which caused them to receive the Hoily Ghost,...Honestly??

If this is where it ended, you might be able to get away with it, but note the next two verses;

46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

It is plain  from these verse, Cornelius and his household already had received the Holy Ghost, prior to water baptism.

Ephesians chapt. 1, makes it clear men are saved at verses 11-14, and when God gives them Faith to believe the Gospel  are imdeaitely sealed by the Holy Spirit, which the earnest of our inheritance, until He returns to claim the purchased possession.

There is no need to discuss this matter with you further, as
you simply want to believe and teach what you presume
 to be truth, inspite of what the Word of God says.

Blessings,

Petro






 

"Baptism for the Remission of Sins"

Jarrod Jacobs
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This subject is perhaps the most argued, the most denied, and the most misunderstood among people who say they believe in God, in Christ, and say they are saved. I myself have debated this subject twice between November of 1998 and March of 1999. I affirmed that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins and my opponent denied this. Why is this such a controversial topic? Why such division on this subject when the New Testament is filled with references concerning the necessity of baptism?


Defining “Baptism”

Baptism, as the word is used in the Bible, is “consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence .... to dip” (Vine’s Amplified Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 62). Mr. Thayer defines baptism as, “to immerge, submerge .... to overwhelm, to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, p. 94). Therefore, baptism itself is an immersion in something. The context tells us the element. This will be made clear in our next point.


There Are Many “Baptisms” Mentioned In The New Testament.

This needs to be understood, or we cannot continue. Yes, there are several “baptisms” mentioned in the New Testament. Therefore, we need to know which one is valid today in order to determine whether or not it is “for the remission of sins.”


The New Testament tells us that there was the baptism of Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). This occurred when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground, and the walls of water and the cloud overhead covered them (Exodus 14:16). They were immersed (see def.) in the walls of water and the cloud over them. This cannot be duplicated today, so we are not talking about this baptism as the baptism for remission of sins.


Another baptism we read about in the New Testament is John’s baptism (Matthew 3:7). John’s baptism was the “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). It was a baptism in water (Mark 1:5; John 3:23). John baptized many, including Jesus (Matthew 3:15-17; Mark 1:5; Luke 3:7). However, it was limited in time. Paul discusses John fulfilling “his course” (Acts 13:25). John’s baptism was not valid after the Lord’s death, burial, and resurrection. In the book of Acts, we find Apollos teaching John’s baptism to the Jews in Ephesus. Upon their hearing this, Aquila and Priscilla “expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly” (Acts 18:25-26). When Paul reached Ephesus, he found 12 men that needed to be baptized “in the name of Christ,” having already submitted to “John’s baptism” (Acts 19:3-5). Therefore, the baptism we are considering in this article is not John’s baptism. Mr. W.E. Vine makes a good point about this in his New Testament word study as well (p. 63).


Consider also the baptism of suffering that the Lord endured. This is found in Matthew 20:20-23; Mark 10:37-40; and Luke 12:50. Here we see a baptism (overwhelming) of suffering which the Lord would shortly endure, and the apostles would endure later. This is an example of the word “baptism” being used, but not having a connection with water.


We read of another baptism that was promised to the apostles. This was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come upon them and would baptize (immerse, overwhelm) them (Acts 1:5, 8). This happened in Acts 2:1-5. Therefore, this is not applicable today for three reasons. One, the Holy Spirit was promised to the apostles, not to anyone today (John 16:7-13). Two, Holy Spirit baptism was a promise to certain individuals, and never a command that all must obey (i.e., There is no command stating that one must be baptized of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved.). Three, the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not take away sins.


A fifth mention of baptism is found in such places as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. This is baptism in water for the remission of sins. It is the baptism to which all the converts in the book of Acts submitted without exception. It is the one which Peter said “saves us” (1 Peter 3:21). It is the one that Paul says puts us in Christ (Galatians 3:27).


The baptism of fire is also mentioned in the New Testament. We read of this in Matthew 3:11-12, and Luke 3:16-17. Many assume Jesus was speaking of “Holy Ghost-fire baptism.” This is not true! John spoke of two separate things when he discussed Jesus baptizing those “with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” We know this because the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit as was mentioned above. However, they were not baptized with fire! The baptism of fire will come to those who died in their sins. Jesus spoke of this in Mark 9:43-48. Paul also spoke of this, and said that there would be a day when Christ would come, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Notice that the one to administer this baptism will be “the Lord Jesus Christ” (v. 7). He will punish those who do not obey Him. This will be an immersion, pictured as being cast into a “lake of fire” (Revelation 21:8). Friends, there will be no “treading” on this lake!
Based on the above descriptions, we know that not all are in effect today. The first four mentioned have served their purpose and now belong to the past. The last baptism is reserved for the future for those who die in their sins. Therefore, the only one that is in effect today is the baptism mentioned by Jesus and the apostles for the remission of sins. This makes sense, for Paul said there is “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:4). This baptism for the remission of sins is the one to which we must submit if we wish to be saved.


What The New Testament Says

Since we know that there is only one baptism in effect today (Ephesians 4:4), let us also go to the New Testament to determine its purpose. It only makes sense that if we are going to talk about what baptism does or does not do, then we need to consider the New Testament passages that deal with baptism.

Jesus said that baptism was necessary for salvation (Mark 16:15-16). As did Peter (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21) and Ananias (Acts 22:16).

The New Testament teaches that baptism stands between the sinner and salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). It stands between the sinner and the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism stands between the sinner and washing sins away (Acts 22:16). It stands between the sinner and wearing the name “Christian” (1 Corinthians 1:13; Acts 11:26). Baptism stands between the sinner and life (Galatians 3:26-27). (Before baptism, one is dead spiritually, Ephesians 2:1, 12). It stands between the sinner and spiritual freedom (Romans 6:16-18).

The New Testament reveals that baptism is not a sprinkling or pouring of water on someone, but an immersion in water, just as the definitions showed us. We see this in our Lord’s baptism (Matthew 3:16), in the reason John chose to settle in “Aenon near to Salim” (John 3:23), and in the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:38). Baptism is not for babies, but for those who are able to hear the word of God (Acts 2:22; Mark 16:15), believe that word (Romans 10:17), repent of their sins (Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3); and confess their faith in Christ (Matthew 10:32-33; Romans 10:10). When one does these things, he is ready to be baptized for the remission of sins. The New Testament declares, and I think we have made it clear already in this article, that baptism is not done to show the world that a person is saved, but is done in order to save a person (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21).

Remember dear readers, if we are going to talk about this, or any other Bible subject, we must find out what the Bible says about the subject. It is not honest to look at passages that do not even mention the word “baptism” and try to deduce the purpose of baptism from those passages. Let us take a careful look at what the Bible says about this subject in order to make an intelligent decision."

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm

CONTINUED:
"What Role Does Faith Play In Salvation?

Many, in an effort to downplay the role of baptism will wish to talk about faith. Yes, faith plays a very important role in man’s salvation, but it is no more important than baptism. In like manner, baptism plays a very important role, but it is no more important than faith, than repentance, and the confession of one’s faith in Christ! They are all equal steps going the same direction -- toward salvation! To leave off one or more of these steps is to wreak havoc with the Scriptures, to “twist them to your own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

What role does faith play in man’s salvation? We know that one will never please God without faith (Hebrews 11:6). And, without faith, one will die in his sins (John 8:24). At the same time, faith and obedience are joined together, just as the body and spirit are joined together. James said, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Paul put it this way: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:13-17). Notice please that one must “call upon the name of the Lord” in order to be saved (Romans 10:13; Acts 2:21). How is this done? Read on. It requires a preacher to preach the gospel in order that people might “hear” and “call.” (v. 14-15). Now, notice carefully verse 16. How do we know who it is that has called upon the name of the Lord? Did they just say one day, “Lord, save me?” Did they say some type of “sinner’s prayer”? Did they lay their hands on a TV, a radio, etc.? “But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?” Notice that these people had to OBEY something! Here, we find faith and obedience joined together, just as the body and spirit! They have not all obeyed, for Isaiah said who has believed! When one truly believes the Lord, they will do what God has told them to do. How does one call upon the name of the Lord? Listen to what Ananias told Paul: “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). After having heard the truth, believed, and repented, Paul was told to arise and be baptized in order to wash away his sins. In doing so, he was calling on the name of the Lord! Peter said a similar thing in Acts 2:21. In the context of Acts 2, he told the people to hear (v. 22), believe (v. 36), repent and be baptized (v. 38). Yes, friends, faith plays an important role in man’s salvation, for without faith one cannot be saved. It is faith which motivates man to do what God said to do and be saved. If one does not believe, he will not obey, and as a result, does not love the Lord (John 14:15, 23-24). Do you love the Lord, dear reader? If so, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Would you repent of your sins, and confess your faith in Jesus as the Son of God, having been put to death, but resurrecting on the third day, never to die again (Acts 13:34)? Have you been baptized for the remission of sins? This is what it takes.


Baptism And The Blood Of Christ

Sometimes, when speaking of baptism, some will say we are not relying on the blood of Christ. Not so! The New Testament makes it clear that the blood of Christ saves us, just as baptism saves us. As Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper, He said, “this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice that He said His blood was shed “for” or, in order to remit sins. No one denies this. In Acts 2:38, Peter told the people gathered in Jerusalem to, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Notice that whatever Christ’s blood is “for,” so also baptism is “for”!

The Lord Jesus shed this blood in His death (John 19:33-34). We, when we are buried in the watery grave of baptism, are “baptized into his death” (Romans 6:3), or “buried with him by baptism into death” (Romans 6:4). It is when we are buried in baptism that we are recipients of the cleansing effects of the blood. Having died to our old sins, been buried in the waters of baptism, and raised to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4), we are free from our sin. We “have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine” and are now “free from sin” (Romans 6:17-18). Therefore, to speak of baptism and its necessity takes nothing away from the blood of Christ. Both the blood of Christ and baptism are necessary for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38). The shedding of His blood is what Christ did to bring about man’s salvation. Being baptized for the remission of sins is what man does in order to be the recipient of salvation.


Conclusion

Put in simple terms, in order to be converted to the Lord, it requires a change in the heart of a man, a change in his lifestyle, and a change in relationship. When this happens, man is converted to the Lord. Now, faith in God is what changes a man’s heart (Hebrews 11:6; Romans 10:17; John 8:24). This change of disbelief to belief in the eternal Creator, and our savior. Repentance is what changes a man’s lifestyle. It is in repentance (a change of mind that results in a change of life) that man decides he will change his ways, turn from his sinful past to live for Christ (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38). Perhaps the clearest demonstration of repentance is seen in Matthew 21:28-31. There, Christ says, “But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” Finally, baptism is what changes the relationship of man from being outside of Christ to being in Christ (Galatians 3:27). One is not “in Christ” until he has been baptized for the remission of sins. Not until we “obey from the heart that form of doctrine” seen in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, and rise to “walk in newness of life” can it be said that our relationship with God has changed (Romans 6:17-18, 3-4). Not until this occurs are we considered by God to be “walking in the light.”

Truly, baptism for the remission of sins is one of the most controversial subjects. The reason for this is because men do not want to do it! When we get our hearts right, we will want to do all that God has said. When we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 23-24). Dear reader, please consider your soul, and how important it is (Matthew 16:26)! Christ died for you (Matthew 20:28). Do not turn your back on Him, but do what is right by becoming His child today and living for Him all the days of your life (Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15)"


.http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm

"Jesus Christ Commanded Baptism.


 
Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16: Christ specifically commanded His apostles to go into the world, preach the gospel, and baptize.  Christ specifically stated that "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." Many will probably argue that the second half of this statement somehow contradicts or negates the first, and thus accuse Christ of lying.  But the simple fact is that Christ commanded baptism, and was Himself baptized.

Christ commanded baptism, and He stated that belief plus baptism equals baptism.  Many argue that baptism is not necessary. Who is right?  Christ, or them?"

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm

 

For Thought Only:

Law -

Rituals
Ceremonies
Sacrifices
The Curse of Sin and Death
The Implements and Symbolism of The Law
Shadows of Things To Come
Prophesy of Things To Come

Grace -

The Gospel of God's Grace
A Mystery Not Known to Men of Other Ages
God's Love and Grace Manifested Through HIS Son
Jesus Christ Walks as a Man - Spotless, Pure, Holy
Jesus Christ Dies on the Cross in our stead
This is REAL - not symbolism
Man can accept Jesus Christ as personal LORD & SAVIOUR
The BLOOD of JESUS is payment for sin
The HOLY SPIRIT is revealed and given to HIS Children
Baptism by the Holy Spirit
Indwelt by the Holy Spirit
Sealed by the Holy Spirit
Fellowship (Communion) Directly & Personally with Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the perfect SACRIFICE once and for all
Confession of sin to Jesus Christ, our LORD & SAVIOUR
Forgiveness of sin by the shed BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST
Cleansing by the HOLY BLOOD OF JESUS
Righteousness IMPUTED to HIS Children through HIS BLOOD

--------

I just wanted to post these few thoughts. One can also place LIVING WATER into the thoughts. I'm of the opinion that man can't add anything to the perfect SACRIFICE OF JESUS. I'm of the opinion that I should yield myself to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, not mine. I'm of the opinion that I don't need symbolism because I have the REAL living in my heart. I'm of the opinion that an attempt to add to the CROSS is saying the CROSS wasn't sufficient and the SACRIFICE wasn't sufficient.

I didn't post this for argument. I'm also of the opinion that a child of God is grateful and changed forever in receiving the GIFT from ALMIGHTY GOD, JESUS CHRIST AS PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOUR. Good works are done in love and appreciation, not for Salvation or maintenance of Salvation. Good works are done by HIS children because they give joy and fulfillment in doing HIS Work. Walking in THE SPIRIT, studying HIS WORD, seeking HIS Will, and yielding to HIS Will increase joy, fulfillment, peace, and assurance in FAITH.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

The physical act of water baptism is man employed, enacted, and empowered.  It, I believe, is done in obedience to the Lord and Savior out of a newly regenerate heart - but is, nonetheless, man's work.  When I was baptized in the water of my church's baptistry, it was because I chose to obey.  It was done when my pastor dunked me.  :)  There was no salvific favor to it, rather, was in response to the salvific grace I'd already received.  It was a work.  A very God commanded, very righteous work, but a work nonetheless.  The God-wrought baptism I experienced when I came to Christ.

Ollie,

Here is an article written in the magazine who also, published Jarrod's article..

It is from the Chrurch of Christ, whether it be from the church which is an off shoot of Mormonism, I cannot say, since they do not publish their doctrinal statement.

I would be interested in seeing it.

But apparently this is what this organization believes, with regard to how man is saved by faith.

Just reading into the second paragraph I see, problems, which I will try to address;

http://watchmanmag.com/0302/030216.htm

Article written in the magazine "Watchman"  

by Glen Melton  entitled  Saved by Faith

A Misconception Of When Faith Saves


Before anyone can say Paul was still in his sin, one has to address several things;

1. Paul was a pharisee, and according to scripture no pharisee allowed himself to be baptized with Johns baptism (Luke 7:30). In order for Paul to be accepted into the church, he had to publicly be baptized with the baptism for the remission of sins. He did it because it was commanded of him by Jesus.

2. All those who had received Johns baptism were still in unbelief, none that is NONE believed until after Jesus arose form the grave, even the Apostles, were in unbelief. (Mk 16:14, Jhn 2:22, Jhn 12:37,  How is it that these, who had already been baptized in wtaer for the "remission of sin" were still in unbelief, and this Glen here, claims, water baptism washes away sin.

Remember this verse;  ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23


3. Jesus when he spoke to his discipels, who had been baptized in water, spoke to them of another baptism, which they would be baptized with; (Mat 20:22-23)

4. Dr. Luke who wrote the inspired account of  the conversion of Paul, no doubt did it from Paul's own words and at Acts 9:1-18 he gives the full account of the matter, Jesus words:

5  I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6  ........... Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And to Annias, Jesus said;
10  ....Annaias.......
11  .....Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12  And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
15  ...... Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

From these verses, one can see, the Holy Ghost was already drawing Paul to Christ, since we read in verse 17 and 18, that Saul who was blind received his sight and received the Holy Ghost, before he was baptized in water, just as Cornelius, and The Ethiopian Eunuch, the Roman Jailer, those on the day of pentecost and  those of Samaria at Acts 8:12, all believed and were baptized with water.

Those who believe and asre baptized (with the Holy Ghost) shall be saved, and those who believeth not shall be damned. Mk 16:16

As I have pointed out before Peter makes this point very clear, that Cornelius received the Holy Ghost , before he and his household were baptized, & at Acts 22 , Paul is recounting this for the jews at Jerusalem, makes it a point to tell the Jews he received his sight when a devout man called Annias put his hands on him, and he received his sight that very hour, and then was batized in water, ,notice the sequence.

It is presumpteous to say, Paul was still in his sins  before he was baptized in water, according to these passages Paul received his sight when he sealed with the Holy Spirit, this was his baptism with the Spirit, since the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not something that is seeing with the eye, according to what Jesus said to Nicodemus,
 
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jhn 3:8), and water baptism is; if this is so, then water baptism cannot be the one baptism spoken of by the Apostle.

Everyone that is washed by the water of the Word of God, is born again (regenerated and renewed [made new] by the Holy Ghost). Titus 3:5
 
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Cont.......................'d

Mr Glen, goes to say;


I have heard this nonsense before. Devils being saved...

Devils and demons are nothing more than fallen angels, spirit beings.

The scriptures tell us that they (Angels) all desire to look into these things (what things??;

1 Pet 1
11  .......what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.)
12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This is pure bellicose rhetoric,  if these men new their bible they wouldn't even put foirth suchg an argument.

It is useless, to continue, since I can see these people here. just want advance their own teachings, it is clear they need to do work on there own gospel, if they desire to teach the truth of this matter..

So, Ollie, if this church is off on this point "Saved by Faith", they must be off on "water baptism"
and the Jarrod Jacobs article is of no value in trying to reconcile this matter, herein.

Blessings,
Petro

Slightly incomplete thought here.  Let me complete it...

The God-wrought baptism I experienced when I came to Christ was the baptism into the body of Christ...

Ollie,

Please look at the second sentence of the seventh paragraph, and tell me what is;

...the baptism of the Holy Spirit, these words do not appear anywhere in scripture.

The bile speaks of a baptism with the Holy Ghost, and it is Jesus who baptizes.

What is your understanding of what this is??

If you answered me before, I don't believe I saw your post..

Thanks,

An Blessings to you,

Petro

If there is only one baptism, and there are two baptism referenced in scripture;
 
1 of water

and 2 with Holy Spirit.

Which one might Jesus be speaking of??

Could it be the external one, is for public confession of Him before men?? A shadow of the internal wahing with the Word of God.

We are commanded to repent, also.

And we read that He grants repentance;

2 Tim 2
25  ....................if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Men are commanded to believe, and man can't unless God grants that, also.

The realization is man is unable to do anything which God commands, why??

Because men are dead in sin and tresspass.

So men that want to contribute to their salvation have re-invented the significance of water baptism, to make themselves feel good, about themselves.

Unforutnately, sinners need to come to this conclusion, in order to see the light.

We are helpless, unable to do anything about our condition, and this is what is needed to be confessed;

He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.  Psa 40:2

Blessings,
Petro

By the way, I want to confess, I was baptized, twice;

Once as an infant, in the Roman Catholic church, whicgh means nothing to me.

And once when I came to Faith in Christ.

About a month or two later, I know and remember very well when I was saved, but can't really remembver when I was dunked in water.

And yes, I counted it as of obedience to the Lords command.


Petro

Dear all, what a turn-out!  I have a lot on my plate but everyone was considerate of me.  Now, in many difficult passages, it is easy to assume that there are no explinations but often, it is the context that explains what the verse is really saying:

Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

       "For."  Now this word can mean in-order-to, but it can also mean, "because of".  I can say that since vs 38 was a response to vs 37:

37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

       Pricked...they were convicted weren't they?  They believed Peter's message.  Peter then say, "repent and be baptised" because their sins have already been forgiven (Matthew 3:11 In order for them to repent?  Or is it because of their repentance?  Both Acts 2 and Matthew 3 used the same word, "for").  

Acts 22:16.  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

       I guess it can imply that sins can be washed but pay attention to the last part:

...Calling on the name of the Lord

       If one by simple obedience to bath to wash sins because its God's command, why does one need to call in His name?  This is not the same as when Jesus said to the lame, "Pick up your mat and walk" because if it is an order, it will happen.  In this case, if it were so that by the spirit of obedience, a believer washes his sins by baptism, he wouldn't need to call out to god because he is commanded to by God.  Therefore, there is a strong implication that this is spiritual than physical.  Paul is commanded to wash his sins awaym BY calling on His name.

Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

       But He that believeth not shall be damned...notice it didn't say He that believeth not and not baptised...  If baptism was so important, why didn't Jesus say it again?  Can it be implied one needs to be baptized?  No, because if it were that important, He would trouble himself to sway it again just like Jesus saying "Verily Verily, KJV" or "Truly Truly NASB"

       Heidi - in John 3:5 when it says Water and Spirit, it can mean the way you see it but keep in mind the context; not in some far off place but the verse next to it:

5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Verse 6 is the key to vs 5 because Jesus is clearly placing vs 5 in spirit and not action.  What is water then?  I believe it is in reference to John 4:

7   There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8   (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9   Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10   Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11   The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12   Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13   Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14   But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.[/u]

        Spirit and Spirit?  Yes, just like vs 6.  The word, "and (in greek, Kai)" can also be "even" according to the greek word used.  Now lets say it does talk about water Baptism - we have a controdition then because in 3 vs 18:

18   He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

        Again, it didn't mention baptism, so if vs 5 did say it, then we see here a controdiction.

       I see that there are other scriptures to deal with.  Ill getr to them soon but in 1 pr 3:21, Baptism is only a figure, a symbol of in reference to vs 18; here, water was used to kill people, it wasn't used to save at all, but it did take Noah and his family.  In this:

21   The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

       Baptism here, is clearly a picture of the ressurection, and that is why it is used.  Baptism is only a symbol, not an act to bring effect.

        IN Romans 6, how do we know its talking about Water Baptism?

3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

       The Word Baptism means to dunk, but in root, it means to be Identified with.  Just like a white hankerchiff, in red ink, we are identified with Him in death, and raised with Him from spiritual death.  To me, the two passages are clearly spiritual, the word Baptism does not always refer to water:

50   But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! - Luke 12:50

       Water Baptism?  No, the kind of baptism He is talking about is clearly in reference to His death.
       So how can we tell whether it is water or not?  By context; in Romans 6, we were baptised with Him To what?  His death.  And we were raised with Him.  If this was water, it wouldnt make sense because the only purpose to Baptismal Regeneration is to wash sins away.  In Romans 6, it talks about a baptism that changes life.

agur

In Matthew 3:13-17 we read the account of Christ’s baptism in water. Does the Scriptures tell us that we should follow Him in baptism? No. You will not find this reason anywhere. In this passage, the reason Christ Himself gave for being baptised was that it was fitting for "us" (John and Himself) to "fulfill all righteousness" (verse 15).

if we are to follow Christ in this obligation, should we not also follow Him in His observance of the Law, in His keeping the Jewish feast days, and even in circumcision (again a Jewish legal responsibility)?

Water baptism symbolises our death, burial and resurrection.

The passage many believers will turn to to prove this is Romans 6.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

This is a saving baptism that Paul speaks of in these verses. But aren’t we saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)? So, since we are saved apart from our own efforts, many Christians interpret this passage as symbolic in order to preserve the doctrine of water baptism while not denying the truth of God’s saving grace. But the baptism Paul writes of here is a saving baptism, for it is by this baptism that we are baptised into Christ’s death and raised in His resurrection. This is the same baptism spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.


Brother Love :)

Grace & Peace

brolove,


The odinances of feast days, was given to the Nation of Israel not the Chruch, nor to the gentiles, they (the ordinances) are done away with in Christ.

I know today many want to associate themselves with jewdism, but these are not commanded to be observed at all by Christians, please note verses 12, 13 and 14 below at Colossians. .




The same Paul who wrote letters to  the Romans 6, Ephesians1 and 2, 1 Corinthians 12, wrote  to the Colossians and  at chapter 2,  speaks of the Baptism by which Christians are  sealed by the Holy Spirit, and it is performed by faith of the operation of God, this has nothing to do with human hands.

Water Baptism is performed with human hands.

Note:

Col 2
8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not water baptism at all, it is a true cleansing by FAITH performed by the operation of Godaccoding to verse 12, above, it includes circumcision of the heart,  made without hands, being buried with Him, in His baptism (meaning His death and resurrection), which He spoke about at Luke 12:50,  (He is not referning to John's Baptism, since He had already been baptized, when He spoke  this words).

Whether one wants to admit it or not, water baptism, is symbolic, and it points to the Word of God, which is likened to water...whom the Holy Spirit uses to wash away sin, and gives newness  of life, regenerating and renewing  the soul and spirit of man.


Blessings,
Petro

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.

Amen Brother Love Amen

Acts 2:36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

ollie,

Understanding this passage in its context is crucial to understanding the significance of water baptism in relation to the Batism with the Holy Ghost performed by Jesus to them whom, God has mgiven Him.

Please note that the "gift of the Holy Ghost, is not the same as "baptism of the Holy Ghost", in been baptized with the Holy Ghost, every believer is given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

At Jhn 14:14-18, Jesus makes it known the Holy Ghost is another conforter, and Jesus reveals at verse 18,I will come to you to the believer.

So it is not enough to just simply quote the verses, unless one can understand them, one cannot worship God in a way that is pleasing, since understanding God's word affects the way people worship.

I think enough has been said about this matter, and those who are convinced, they know the answer to the question;

"Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation?"

as being in the affirmative, will not be swayed, since it would involve needing to unravel their fishing line, and would rather not go to that trouble, because it would involve major changes in their way of worshipping, they simply would rather fish with a "bird nest" in their line, and teach all sorts of other doctrines not found in swcripture; from the second blessing evidenced by speaking in tongues to having visions, and hearing voices from God.

Blessings,

Petro

Baptize means to wash.
Repent, and be washed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
WATER HAS NO MAGICAL PROPERTIES.

(Acts 2:36) "let all the house of Israel " :)

(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!



Brother Love :)

Different Baptisms
This study is designed to debunk the notion that the only baptism in the bible is water baptism. Check it out for yourself.

1. 3 Baptisms in one verse - Mat 3:11
2. Jesus’ Baptism - Mat 3:15
3. Jesus’ Death Baptism - Mat 20:22
4. Great Commission Baptism - Mat 28:19; Acts 1:5
5. Peter's Gentile Baptism - Acts 10:48
6. Believers Death Baptism - Rom 6:3-4
7. Baptism For The Dead - 1 Cor 15:29
8. The One Baptism - Eph 4:5
9. Noah's Baptism - 1 Pet 3:20,21
10. Pharisees Baptism - Mark 7:4

And of Course... The Hebrew water rites - Heb 9:10
So whenever you read the words "baptism", "baptize" do not assume that it means "water baptism"; not all baptisms make you wet.






(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Actually, baptize comes from the Greek baptizo which means "to immerse."  Water has no magical properties, I agree!  But it is with the blood of Christ that we are washed...

"For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins..."

...it is with the blood of Christ that we are washed...

"For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins..."

Amen

Brother Love :)






(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I'm glad you all have it figured out. You have dissected the Word so as to obliterate any meaning whatsoever. "Repent and be baptized" does'nt mean what it says because of some overriding teaching based on "rightly dividing the word of truth". This is the most laughable exuse for not obeying the words of Jesus that I have ever encounterd. And so it goes: "ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
Oh well, love still covers over a multitude of sins.
Have a nice eternity.

asaph

Where did you get the idea that it means to immerse?
To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications. As in:

Mark 7:4  And when they come from the market, except they wash {baptizo}, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized {baptizo} every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The basis of this washing comes from the OT. It is sprinkling.

Ezekiel 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Read these verses carefully and you will see that God is talking about salvation being all His work.
Water, all through the bible represents the Gospel, it is parabolic language.

1 Peter 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Verse 20 is parabolic and historic, it is a picture of man being saved by the gospel.
The Gospel is supported and based on the blood of Christ.
We are washed clean by His blood.
To be washed in the name of Christ means to be washed in the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Cleanseth, washed, baptizo, They are tied together.
Blood of Christ and Gospel, tied together.
Part of the ritual for the priesthood was to be washed, by sprinkling.

Numbers 8:6  Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
Numbers 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Jesus came as the High Priest. It was necessary for Him to have this ritual performed.
So that is why John the Baptist sprinkled water upon Jesus.
As high priest Jesus fulfilled a necessary requirement to pay for our sins.
I believe Jesus never sinned so water baptism can have nothing to do with salvation.
Can someone dying in the desert, with no water, become saved?

AAAAAAAAAMEN!

"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.


Brother Love :)

Grace & Peace
++++++++++++++++++++++

DITTO ;D

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What more needs to be said?I say nothing!Jesus said it all!

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I wanted to post this just for thought, not argument.

Could you imagine standing in the very presence of Jesus Christ, physically seeing him before your eyes, talking with Him face to face, being taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and mysteries being revealed to you that contradicted the beliefs of all mankind? Almighty God knew there would be confusion, disbelief, and resistance to the message of the Gospel of God's Grace. In fact, there was confusion and disbelief by those who were in HIS very presence. Many of those closest to HIM were not completely convinced by all of the miracles, signs, and wonders done in their presence. Even the closest were not convinced until Jesus Christ was crucified, died, and arose from the dead. Christ arisen stood again before them, and they finally believed.

Some of the hearers of the Gospel of God's Grace had generations of THE LAW firmly implanted as the ONLY and ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Other hearers of the Gospel of God's Grace were Gentiles, heathen, idol worshipers, and the worst of the worst of mankind. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to preach the Gospel of God's Grace to any audience of the time?

It is still difficult today to preach the Gospel of God's Grace. The core and heart of the Gospel of God's Grace was given to Paul to teach and preach. Under the circumstances of the time, can you imagine how difficult Paul's mission and burden were? Ephesians 3:9 could sum up Paul's purpose. Many sweet Brothers and Sisters in Christ are still struggling to carry on with Paul's mission.

You might think this post is off topic, but it isn't. The contrasts, comparison, and references to the precious portion of Scripture below reveals what the Gospel of God's Grace really is. Many didn't understand it 2,000 years ago, and the same remains true today. Look at Ephesians 3:9 and consider fellowship and unity in THE SPIRIT. Follow the references,  contrasts and comparisons to reveal portions of beautiful TRUTH that are still not understood and believed today.

Prior to THE CROSS, there were many rituals, ceremonies, sacrifices, and duties which were shadows of things to come. There was also prophecy of things to come, and that prophecy was fulfilled. All prophecy in the Holy Bible will be fulfilled at HIS appointed time. Reference "SHADOWS", they are gone when the REAL fills your field of vision. Here are a few things that are REAL and completely fill all vision:

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the CROSS in our stead in payment for our sins.

Jesus Christ arising from the dead and ascending back to heaven as Lord and Saviour for all who will accept HIM as Lord over their lives. Our Saviour LIVES and HIS WORD LIVES.

The blood of Jesus is the perfect sacrifice in payment for the sins of HIS children.

The Holy Spirit is REAL and LIVES in the hearts of HIS Children. His children are baptized by the Holy Spirit, and the sins of the children are forgiven through the precious Blood of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a seal on the heart of HIS children. This seal sets aside HIS children for the PROMISES of ALMIGHTY GOD. The seal is PROOF of the inheritance Promised by God and eternal life with Jesus Christ, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.

The CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST is REAL. All of God's children are members of HIS BODY, a CHURCH not made with human hands.

The REAL that has replaced Shadows is a beautiful and precious GIFT from ALMIGHTY GOD. Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!
---
Ephesians  3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians  3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians  3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians  3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians  3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians  3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians  3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians  3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians  3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians  3:11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians  3:12  In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
 
Love In Christ,
Tom

Water baptism was a part of the obedience for the first Jews in acts 2 so in their situation I believe that all believed were baptised, as the word of God called them to obey.

But in other conversions baptisim is not called upon for obedience.

"Whosever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved".

I dont believe Baptism is nessary for salvation, but a saved person would want to be Baptised.

If God calls you to Baptism then just Trust and obey him.

Very good verses:
19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

By teaching the gospel many become saved and they are washed clean of their sins.

Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

When we have saving faith we are washed clean, there is no spot on us.
Thank you for bringing those wonderful verses up.

Primarily the meaning of the word baptizo is to immerse or to submerge.  The secondary meaning is to wash.  So, we take it by the secondary meaning when the word apolouo could have more readily been used?  "Yes" you say, because of the spiritual implications.  We are baptized to wash our sins away...several problems with that philosophy.  Please read this, as it is lengthy, but explains the position those of us who disagree with you come from.  :)

For one, how did one come to God in the Old Testament, and upon what basis?  One came in faith and upon the basis of blood.  The Tabernacle worship, which was in full a picture of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, was at the very heart of this approach.  Take this for example:

(http://www.angelfire.com/in4/thedelighted/images/tabernacle.bmp)

When the priest would enter the Tabernacle, the first piece of furniture he came to was the Altar of Burnt Offering (A).  In order for the priest to come to God, the picture was set that it cost blood.  To come to God, one must come with blood.  Jesus - "I am the way..."

From there he would progress to the Bronze Basin (B).  Here the priest would wash.  To remove his sin?  As a picture of the removal of his sin?  No!  That was taken care of upon the approach at the altar.  This was for a ceremonial cleansing.  Note: He never would have gotten here had he not had the blood.  There is no cleansing without the blood...


From there, he would enter the Holy Place.  He would eat from the Table of Shewbread (C).  Jesus - "I am the Bread of Life..."  To his left he would see the golden lampstand (D).  Jesus - "I am the Light of the world..."  and directly in front of him would be the Altar of Incense (E).  Beyond there, no normal priest could go!  Only the high priest.  Jesus - "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.   Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."  Only the high priest of the Old Covenant could enter there - now we, by the blood of God's sacrificial Lamb may boldly enter in.

From there, the high priest would enter and find two pieces of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant (F), and the Mercy Seat (G) which sat on top of the ark.  This is often forgotten, but had a very important purpose.  When the priest entered into the Holy of Holies, or Most Holy Place, he did so with a blood offering for the sins of the people.  He would take hissop, and splash the blood upon that seat.  Why?  Inside the ark were the jar of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the commandments God Himself had written on the stone tablets.  Keep in mind, that as the priest is performing this duty, the Shekinah glory of God would have been hovering over this very Mercy Seat!  Nice picture isn't it?  God was looking down past the mercy seat to see what?  His Law.  The Law that man has disobeyed.  Why then the blood?  Don't miss this!  Because He would see a broken law yes, but would see the blood interposed.  "Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins."  

Here's the problem - that sacrifice, though acceptable to God, had to be performed each year to cover that sin.  Until...


For a second reason, Christ came, died, shed His precious blood to take away my sin - and I gain salvation by being baptized?  If this is true, then why, oh why the cross?  This defies logic.  This defies the very picture God Himself painted for man from the very beginning with Adam, Eve, and the animals whose blood He shed to cover their sin.

When we put stock in misunderstood passages, we run the great risk of placing our eternity on our actions.  Must we be baptized to be saved?  Absolutely not.  If so, then God wasted His time by teaching His people, and His children what the price of our salvation was, when all He had to do was dunk, sprinkle, spritz, or splash people.

In Christ,

Kevin

BEP,

Good Word, I doubt this you have written, will be understood by those who teach water baptism, in order to understand doctrine, one muist be weaned off of milk, in order to begin feeding on solid food. And what you have shared, requires teeth to chew on.

Mat 28
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I already forgot, who put forth this scripture as though to prove something; about "The baptism of the Holy Spirit."  

It is a weak attempt at something, since without the preceding words it means absolutely nothing.

 "....Baptizing them in the name of the ..........................,........,.. Holy Ghost.

By deleting these words one can prove nothing.

I wonder if the following passages of scripture perhaps will prick hearts;

Acts 19
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

John's Water Baptism, did nothing for these men is as much as being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and according to verse 2, they believed,

where they in the body of Christ??  NO..

Yet They, had been water baptized for remission of sin and believed.   And they had not received the Holy Spirit.  

And it wasn't until Paul baptized them by laying his hands upon them, they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, and they prophecied and spoke in tongues, according to verses;

6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7  And all the men were about twelve.

There is no evidence the Apostles were ever water baptized again, after being baptized by John.

Phillip at Acts 8, at a city in Samaria, baptized many who believed, they did not received the Holy Ghost, until Peter and John, were sent to them, and they prayed and they received the Holy Ghost, and when they(Peter and John) laid hands on them, no doubt Baptizing them in the names of Christ Jesus, it wasn't until this that,  the Holy Spirit came upon them. (v 17)

Cornelius, when Peter recounts the story the first time at Judaea, He plainly states;

Acts 11
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said;

 John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus's own words confirm, that it is the baptism with the Holy Ghost, which seals the believer's gift of the Eternal Life into the Body of Christ, not water baptism is required.

The Baptism, Jesus spoke of at Mat 16:16 says nothing of water, it is assumed, by men who strive to save themselves, and seek water, becuase the focus of the carnal mind is on an outward show as proof of salvation, and it allows the flesh to play a part in the process, so they can say when asked, are you saved?  their answer;  Yes I have been baptized in water.

When Jesus spoke of;  being baptized with the Baptism I am baptized with"[color]

He spoke of His own Baptism (annointing) with the Holy Ghost. ( Acts 10:38)

Clearly the teaching is unskillfull use of  and stumbling at the word God.  Unable to move on to solid food, always going back to

"the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

Those who are saved are called unto a higher calling, and to ;

"leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"

Blessings,

Petro

Good message Petro

Brother Love :)

A Baptist man lived in a traditional Catholic
neighborhood. Every Friday, the Catholics were
driven crazy because, while they were morosely eating
fish, the Baptist was outside barbecuing steaks.
The Catholics worked on the Baptist, attempting to
convert him to Catholicism. Finally, after much
pleading and some threats, the Catholics succeeded.
They took the Baptist to a priest who sprinkled
Holy Water on the man while saying, "Born a Baptist,
Raised a Baptist, Now a Catholic!"
The Catholics were ecstatic but this was short-lived
for, the next Friday evening, the scent of barbecue
once again drifted through the neighborhood.
The Catholics all rushed to the ex-Baptist's house
to remind him of his new diet.
They found him standing over the cooking steaks,
sprinkling water on the meat and saying, "Born a
cow, Raised a cow, Now a fish!"


 :)

Brother Love :)

Please refer to Acts 8

15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Again, note verse 16, these had been baptized in the name of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them, and yet the Holy Spirit, had been falling on all others who had believed being added to the church.

The words of Jesus at;

Acts 11
16  .....John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Are written, for all who believe the scriptures and the faith of Jesus who has obtained the gift of eternal life, and this life is in the the Baptism He is Batized with and will Baptize any who come to Him by FAITH.

How is it professing christians, believe the doctrine taught by the catholic church, they  believe and teach, the doctrine of baptism is to baptize all infants who do not believeat all, very few adults ever come to faith while being members of this instituiton , but many do when they leave it, yet, they all claim to believe the promises of God.

Consider that catholics support pro abortion politicians, yet when one speaks to catholics they all say they do not believe
in a womans right to chose.

The doctrine of water baptism is misunderstood, because these christians, would rather have other men teach them doctrine than, allowing the Holy Spirit, to teach and lead then in the teach of GODS Word.

Blessings,

Petro

We are not "The Church In The Wilderness" (Acts 7:38) covered by animal blood. (Leviticus 9:3) Baptized by water, (Leviticus 1:13) justified by self righteousness. (Deuteronomy 6:25) Nor "The Church In Jerusalem" Acts 8:1) saved by law, (Matthew 19:17) baptized in water, (Matthew 3:6) self justified by works (James 2:14)

 
 
 

Before religion I was hungry, now I'm fed up.

It seems the reason that those disiples that were Baptied by John, had not recieved the Holy Spirit is , Because John was only Baptising in water.

Jesus the one who came after John as John said ,  John 1:33 "the same is he that Baptised in the Holy Ghost."

There is no second Baptism in the Spirit for a Christian.But fillings yes.Our Fellowship with the Lord and Blessings of the Holy spirit are Conditional.As we obey Him.But once we are saved , we are sealed until the day of redemption.We need only to trust and Obey as there is no other way to be Happy in Jesus, but to trust and Obey.   :) :) :) :)

Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

ollie,

Do you really believe this verse??   Probably not..because you do not understand it.

This verse, brings out the point we have been making all along and drives home the point, that is that water baptism does not accomplish anything, towards salvation, it is clearly a public declaration of an individual who has believed the Gospel and desires to show obedience towards Jesus commandment and by it is associated with Him..

As has been said before; Jesus, after having been baptized with John's baptism, spoke of another baptism;

Mat 20
22  But Jesus answered and said, ]Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23  And he saith unto them, ]Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

What makes you think, that the physical act of water baptism, is being referred to at verse 27 of Gal 3??

There is absolutely no evidence water baptism is being referred to herein, clearly Paul does not have it in mind, and neither does Jesus at Mk16:16.

We have put forth many other verses which declare this and can be used as proof texts, which you simply have ignored, and unfortunately, taking verses out of context, by assuming and presuming and misquoting  them won't ever make them mean what you desire them to mean.

Col 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Note verses 11 and 12, that this baptism, the one performed without hands which includes circumcision of the heart, puts off the body of sins of the flesh, burys with Him is Baptism, and also raises with him, thruogh FAITH in what God has accomplished, in as much as God by His Spirit has raised Him from the dead. This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote Gal 3:26-27.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life (eternal life) to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:11)



Again, Paul does not mention water baptism at all, what makes you think he is speaking of water baptism??  Or are you assuming it..?

Can you explain this discrepency??

Remember Paul is also the author of the same verse in Colosians 2:12.


Though some may teach these were baptized in water what makes you think this to be true??  

There is no evidence they were baptized in water at this verse, what makes you think the Apostles could not have  baptized them by the laying on of hands as Peter and John did to them at Samaria  at (Acts 8:12-17), in fact this day had been prophecied to by Jesus himself, when he said;

Acts 1
4  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,  but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Clearly, what happened on the day of Pentecost, is exactly what occurred when Peter preached Jesus unto Cornelious's, his household and friends;  The Holy Spirit fell upon them and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by the question;

What must we do??

Unbelievers (unless drawn by the Father) never ask such a question, in fact you should have 1 Cor 2:14, memorized already from the many times it has been quoted herein..

You need to see, the verses you have put forth, prove nothing towards strengthing your argument,....that;

water Baptism saves noone, but,..........

Baptism with the Holy Spirit does......

Blesings,

Petro

ollie,

Recapping what I have just said;Gal 3:27 in the context of ;

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 (Mk 16:16)

Makes it clear that water baptism is not in view, but Baptism with the Holy Ghost IS.

You could be unraveling your bird nest on that fishing line, instead of wasting your time, trying to teach something not found in scripture..in the end you yourself will be blessed..

Blessings

Petro

Ollie, NO WATER HERE:

 Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ollie, NO WATER HERE:

Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ollie, THIS IS TO ISRAEL:

Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
Ollie,You should READ all of Acts Chapter two.

Brother Love :)

Just a thought. Could it be that, standing alone, water baptism has no significance. But when connected to faith in the operation of God it has great significance.
Let's take an example of Jesus and a healing He did in the life of a blind man. The sign or miracle is recorded in John chapter 9.

Joh 9:6  When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7  And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

Note that Jesus used an unorthodox method of healing. He used spit and dirt and placed it in the man's eyes. Then Jesus gives a command: Go, wash in the pool of Siloam. What to you suppose would have happened had the man reasoned in his heart? "This is utter foolishness! Mud made from spit and washing at the pool can't possibly make me see! Jesus, just wave your hand over me, that will suffice." You and I both know that he would have remained blind. Now, does the spit and the dirt and the water hold any power to heal? No, of course not. Only obedience to the command of Jesus brings salvation. In light of this re-read Mark 16.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Some say that this is utter foolishness, even as Naaman of the OT thought it was stupid to think that dipping in the Jordon River would heal him of leprosy.

We all know that water does not save us in and of itself. But what about obeying the command of Jesus?  This should stop all argument dead in it's tracks. What do you say?

asaph

asaph,

From this passage of scripture it is clear this man, did not have faith in Jesus.

Yet, it was Jesus who gave him sight, to see; so, his faith was only in what he trusted, nevertheless he obeyed and went and washed.

Jesus who annointed Him with clay of spittle commanded him to go and wash, and it is clear Jesus did it to manifest the WORK OF GOD

What do you suppose this work of God is?

Isn't it giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf?

Washing was an ordinace instituted by the hand of Moses to the Nation, this man who had been born blind new the significance of this law, and he trusted in it, this is why he went and washed.

No amount of washing while trusting in the Law of Moses could ever have given this man who was born blind, sight.

But if God chooses to give sight to anyone it is of His good pleasure not  because of anything man does.
 
We are speaking of the belief in God that saves the soul, no man can believe to the saving of the soul unless God gives Him Faith to believe HIM, this is the faith that saves.

Clearly this mans eyes were opened, that he might see and believe in the Son of God.  (Jhn 9:35-38)


Now, with regard to your post "which comes first" can you honestly state this man was saved first, so that he could see and believe in Jesus?

Clearly, he didn't even know who Jesus was.

It is only when men place faith in Jesus that they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, He must be the object of FAITH, which is given by GRACE and this is the real Baptism that saves,  Water Baptism in every case except when Jesus was made manifest to Israel came afterward.

Pedtro
Can you honestly

Jesus gave sight to this blind man to manifest the "the work of God" in him.  Jhn 9:3

And the Work of God is;

To believe in Him, whom He has sent  Jhn 6:29

If one does not believe in Him, no amount of water baptisms, will save him.

Petro

The doctrine of Baptism is a mystery known, by them who possess the Spirit of God because it is given to us to know these things..this is why we share them boldly with you of the things we understand, that your faith might be strengthened

Blessings
Petro

Petro You Said-
Now, with regard to your post "which comes first" can you honestly state this man was saved first, so that he could see and believe in Jesus?
I think you are refering to my statement:

Now, does the spit and the dirt and the water hold any power to heal? No, of course not. Only obedience to the command of Jesus brings salvation. In light of this re-read Mark 16.
I was was using the term salvation in the sense of deliverance from blindness in this man's case, not the saving of his soul. The man was saved from blindness because he trusted and obeyed the words of Jesus. All I am saying is that in light of this principle of receiving through faith and obedience, one receives salvation the same way.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Now which baptism is he refering to? I think Jesus is referring to water baptism as he states in Mat. 28.

 Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This is obviously water baptism here. Why should it be any different in Mark 16.

asaph

asaph

When Paul addressed the Corinthians , who were divided and having contentions over who they belonged to,  because of being baptized in water, Paul rebuked them saying;
 
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any          other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:  not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect........(1 Cor 1:13-17)

Now,  I hope,  you find this statement interesting, that Paul should say this, since at Mat 28:18-19, Jesus while speaking to the eleven commands  them to baptize those who believe according to Mark's Gospel. (Mk 16:16)

Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles, while Peter to the Jews.

And although Paul did batpize some, he rejects the notion that this same water baptism did anything to any of them whom he baptized, evidenced by his words;

1 Cor 1
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Which brings us to this verse 17,  where he explains that he, was not called to baptize but preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

He then goes on to make clear, what is the problem with this contention is (one of being baptized with water), in fact, he calls it the wisdom of this world, which makes the cross of christ foolishness, and I am afraid that this is what this doctrine of water baptism has become.

22  .... the Jews require a sign while the greek seek after wisdom..
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

When I came unto you....he goes on to say;

1 Cor 2
1  ................................came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The Baptism of Jesus was His Crucifixation  Death and Resurrection, this is what He spoke of, when He said to His disciples;  


Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

No way was He referring to water baptism.  And neither was Paul, note;

9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He said to him;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus asked; How can a man be born when he is old?  

Jesus answered;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now lets us compare spiritual with spiritual;

You would say, Jesus was speaking of physical water herein at Mat 28:19; and we say;....... no

Jesus is not speaking of physical water at all, but, He is speaking of spiritual water, of which is was prophecied by Ezekiel;

Eze 36
22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This promise was made to the house of Israel of which household all who belong to Christ are, remembering that at one time, we gentiles were;

Eph2
12  ......aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Israel the nation has yet to have their sins washed away, with this pure water which Ezekiel speaks of.

In fairness, let me stop right here;

And give you a chance to explain, what the clean water, is being spoken of herein means;

According to the Word, the clean water at Eze 36:25, could be translated "pure water", where is this to be found on this earth.?

The word clean as given in Eze 36:25, in the Hebrew-English version is #2889 tahowr pronounced taw-hore' taken from #2891 pure (in a phys. chem. ceremonial or moral sense) :-----translated as;  clean fair, pure (-ness)

Blessings,
Petro

On this we can agree. Salvation is not based on anything we do.
I would add to this statement when we interpret scripture out of our own minds we run a great risk of misunderstanding God.
We tend to rely an awful lot on dictionaries, concordances, and the teaching of other men.
If we compare scripture with scripture, then we can begin to search out Gods meaning.
For instance one of the reasons the NIV translators put more stock in the texts they used was because of these verses in Matthew:

Matthew 17:18  And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 17:19  Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Matthew 17:20  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

The NIV translators argue that the 4th century texts were more accurate than the 5th century ones that were used for the KJV is because of this verse about fasting found in Matthew 17:21.
They rationalized what does going without food have to do with casting out demons?
Their claim is that Gnostics added this to the bible.
What they didn’t understand is, fasting is parabolic language.
My opinion is that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they weren’t used. They weren’t used because they were not as accurate. The scribe copying these verses probably felt that it didn’t make sense to him either. So he left it out.
The solution to Matthew 17:21 is found in Isaiah 58:1-7.

Isaiah 58:5  Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
When we understand this is parabolic language then we can see that this demon was cast out by the power of the gospel.
Going without food is a legitimate definition of fasting, but this is not what God had in mind.
Man has defined baptizo as immersion. Can you support your definition, immersion, with scripture?
God says He will SPRINKLE clean water upon us. Can you find ANY scripture that says He will immerse us?

Ezekiel 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezekiel 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is talking about our salvation. We are born again when God gives us a new heart. Spiritually we are dead. Our spirit is dead, God gives us a new spirit, a resurrected spiritual body. We still have a physical body that is unsaved until the Lords return, but we have a new spirit. God does it by the washing of the word. It is the gospel, not H2o, that saves us. Water, like fasting, is parabolic language for the gospel. And yes I can support that with scripture. (Genesis 2:10, Genesis 16:7, Genesis 29:8, Exodus 4:9, Exodus 17:6, Numbers 20:11, 1 Samuel 30:12, 2 Samuel 23:15, Proverbs 25:21, Matthew 14:28-29, Luke 16:24, John 4:13-15, John 5:4-9, John 7:38, Ephesians 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 2 Peter 2:17, Revelation 22:17)
When man baptizes in water it is a sign that we are under the hearing of the gospel. While every one that is saved is under the hearing of the gospel, not everyone that is under the hearing of the gospel is saved.
Scripture supports sprinkling, and it supports water = gospel.
You have presented an interesting picture of the temple, it is one interpretation.
You have not given any scriptural support for your definition.
The candlestick does not represent Christ.
The flame at the top of the candlestick does. He is the light of the world.
The candlestick represents the church.

Revelation 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Christ is the head of the church. The flame at the top.
The blood was always a picture of the blood of Christ. We agree that we are washed clean in the blood of the lamb. Man was never saved by the blood of animals.
Hebrews 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Even in the OT it was known animal sacrifice did not save. Key verses from Psalm 51:

Psalms 51:2  Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psalms 51:6  Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalms 51:11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psalms 51:12  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psalms 51:16  For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psalms 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Sacrifices were an act of obedience, just as baptism is. The sacrifices, like water baptism, did not save.

Psalms 51:19  Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The veil of the temple was destroyed at the cross. Man is no longer separated from God. The physical temple was a picture of the body of believers. It will never be rebuilt, as some claim. Because now we have a temple built upon believers, a temple no man can destroy.

1 Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ephesians 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I am sorry it took me so long to reply to this, I’ve been working 75 miles from home. It has been a long week of commuting. Nice to sleep in my own bed though, usually I motel it.

ollie,


As I was reading scripture this afternoon, I saw this verse, which reminded me of your question, concerning them of the Nation of Israel, that are in unbelief concerning Jesus, and reject HIM as the Messiah , yet, know and understand the OT, humanly speaking.

Ollie reply #5 at

  http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1616

We believe that when one believes Gods Words spoken by Jesus, God the Spirit, removes the veil from the heart, in effect this is what has happened to all them, that have come to FAITH in HIM.

Concerning the Apostles, who waqlked with Jesus three years and were present and saw, the miracles performed in the Fathers name, that He might manifest the Wordk of God by them.

Yet;

Jhn 20
9  For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

This is speaking of the OT, scriptures, this is a prophecy of David;

Psa 16
10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11  Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Concerning himself, and and all becuase of FAITH in Gods Word concerning Jesus the Messiah;

John was the first one to understand and come to belief on Jesus; Jhn 20:8.

And Peter and the others followed, then Thomas, and finally Saul of Tarsus, while on the road to Damascus.

They understood not, because it had not been revealed to them, since it is clear Jesus plainly spoke of His death and resurrection to them.

Mat 17
22  And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23  And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again.

How much clearer could Jesus, make this known to them.

And this is also, how He said it;

Mat 20
22  But Jesus answered and said,  Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?  They say unto him, We are able.
23  And he saith unto them,  Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

The cup, signified His shed blood and by it His death, and His ressurection, since He said:

Mat 26
29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


Then notice How, Peter remembered, what Jesus said; when Cornelius and his household began speaking in tongues at Acts 10:45-46;

45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

He testifies to this in the next chapter, what he remmebered;

Acts 11
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said,  John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

From verse 45, at Acts 10, it is clear the gift of the Holy Spirit, was poured out to Cornelius and his household when they heard the preaching of the Gosple of God, for it is by the foolishness of preaching of the Gosple, that God saves people, and not by the act of water baptism

Clearly the Baptism which produces the Holy Spirit is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, given to them that obey God;

God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe these are two things the natural man is unable to do, but he can trust and desire to obey, God sees the heart, and those who are saved, are saved because they desire to do Gods will, while in sin.

Paul puts it this way;

Acts 5
29  .............We ought to obey God rather than men.
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


God Bless,

Petro

L.C.,

Sorry for taking so long to reply!  Let me ask you a question - have you ever taken Greek?  I only ask because every Greek lexicon I have ever come across has defined the word baptizo as "to immerse" or "to wash thoroughly."  I have taken 1 and 1/2 years of N.T. Greek in Bible College, and it is upon this training that I rely in this matter.  Now, as to why I'm dogmatic?  I'm Baptist!  We dunk!   ;D

As for the concept of washing...Asaph,

You posted the following verse:


Amen!  However, it is this transliteration that causes the problem.  We develope a concept of a physical act of obedience that I believe is taught, not for salvific grace, but in light of that grace - water baptism.  But what of the secondary meaning of baptizo?  "To wash thoroughly."  The verse would then read...


Washed with what?  Is it water that makes us "whiter than snow?"  I contest that it is the very blood of Christ.  Consider this:


I understand that this passage refers to being washed...but notice verse 7?  "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."  This is not a reference to water baptism in any way.  Rather, it is pointing back to the Old Testament Tabernacle Day of Atonement sacrifice.  The High Priest would take the blood of the sacrificed goat in a bowl, and enter the Holy of Holies, where he would dip a hyssop branch into the blood, and splatter the Mercy Seat atop the Ark of the Covenant seven times.  One time, each year for the sins of the nation - the chosen of God.  It is the blood that cleanses us, pictured first in the blood of animal sacrifice which covered our sin before God, and perfected next in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which removes our sin.

Petro,
You do make a strong case. However the Corinthians were all baptized by someone in water. Listen:

13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The bold type emphatically says they were all baptized. The subject is obviously water baptism. If your theory is correct then Paul would have had many opportinities to plainly say that water baptism was not needed at all. But where is this explicitly stated? It's not.

asaph

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

Brother Love  :)

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Verse 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. WOW!!!

Only ONE Baptim Not 2, 3 or 4. Ephesians 4:5, NOT by human hands Col 2:11,12.
God The Holy Spirit is NOW the Baptizer, He Baptises the BELIEVER into Christ, which NOW is The C-H-U-R-C-H.
NO WATER.

 
Romans 6:1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is the ONE Baptism Ephesians 4:5 with 1 Corithians 12:13
NO WATER.

HERE is a list of cults that do not follow Paul today because they require Israel's water baptism for salvation.... Jehovah's Witnesses , Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ, and others.... who you going to believe? Men or God?

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."

I agree 100%

Brother Love :)

DITTO :)

And DITTO :)

No I am not a Greek Scholar, however I learned of this from a man who was.
Now I’m in my fifties and he was more than 30 years older, I have been a believer for about 15-20 years he has been one since childhood.
What he taught was caution with lexicons, and historical records. While the bible is true, and the original text is God breathed; lexicons are written by men.
He taught that the first place to go for bible understanding is the bible itself, compare spiritual things with spiritual.
What do the lexicons say about fasting?
He showed me how we can understand Matthew 17 not from lexicons but rather from Isaiah 58.
He showed me that we can understand the baptism of Jesus from Numbers 8.
And he showed me how we can understand water baptism is from sprinkling from Numbers 8 and Ezekiel 36.
It really doesn’t matter if you are dunked or sprinkled or if you have never been baptized in water. A Christian is washed in the blood of the lamb.
I agree! Only I believe the meaning, not secondary, is wash.

Weak arguement.
There is only one Lord but He is three Persons. Would you argue that the Father and the Spirit is not Lord?

John says that the Spirit and the water agree in one. You say there is only Spiritual baptism but John says the Spirit and the water agree in one.
1 John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Baptism has two aspects: the visible aspect by water and the invisible aspect by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 41; 10:44-48). The visible aspect is the expression, the testimony, of the invisible aspect, whereas the invisible aspect is the reality of the visible aspect. Without the invisible baptism by the Spirit, the visible baptism by water is vain, and without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by the Spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed.

asaph

8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

asaph

No argument here, they were baptized with water, and this is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit spoken of by John the Baptist; furthermore, this baptism performed with human hands was in obedience to the command;

 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It is the confession, Jesus speaks of at;

Mat 10
32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

This confession is based on Jesus's death, burial and resurrection, and being associated with it. That is to say, that by faith, believers, believe and understand they have died, been buried, and have risen with Him by the operation of God.

But what is most convincing is what Jesus said at;

Mk 16
15   Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Verse 16, prefaces, the one baptism which saves (Col2:11-12) which is by faith in what God has done, and not men, and the baptism of water which confesses to men follows.


It is written plainly,

Eph 4
5  ............. [one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And water baptism is not it.

Even GRACE is measured out according to the gift of Christ.

It is no secret, and amazing that those who place their faith in water baptism, also, error (by teach contrary to scripture)in their view of the losing of the free gift of FAITH through the GRACE of God.

They teach that one can and will lose their salvation, unless they keep the commandments perfectly, and yet none due.

And when questioned concerning this matter, it results that they really do not believe what they teach, since none believe they lose it imediately upon sinning, but is a process whereby they are kept by grace, and must in the end die in sin, in order to lose it.

It is a confused teaching, based on this point, that their salvation is based on what they do, and this begings this works gosple, which is unbiblical, since it rejects the blood that bought them, and places more emphasis on their own works.

Yes, I know, people from this camp reject this notion, but it is what they do, that gives what they believe away and the object of their faith on which they rest, which is themselves.

When building, a builder knows that if he is off a fraction of an inch, at the starting point, the problem will be compounded as the building progresses, so much so, that every piece added will in the end result in a tremendous accumulated  error amounting to several inches or even feet, where the building will not even match the footprint of the foundation.

This is why, the Apostle states;

1 Cor 3
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


What??
If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version,  he does not possess the Holy Spirit!


Whats your point?  This command was given privately to the (11) Apostles (Mat 28:16, Mk 16:11, not to individuals, no one baptized himself, nor do believers baptize .
And Jesus qualified this point by making it plain those who believe are saved, making it clear that those who believe not, and are water baptized are damned..
The object of one faith is clear when we begin speaking of it.

Clearly, water baptism, is not what produces the Hoily Spirit in individuals who believe HIM..

Blessings,

Petro

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

Brother Love  
 
 
Weak argument.
There is only one Lord but He is three Persons. Would you argue that the Father and the Spirit is not Lord?

John says that the Spirit and the water agree in one. You say there is only Spiritual baptism but John says the Spirit and the water agree in one.
1 John 5
8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Baptism has two aspects: the visible aspect by water and the invisible aspect by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 41; 10:44-48). The visible aspect is the expression, the testimony, of the invisible aspect, whereas the invisible aspect is the reality of the visible aspect. Without the invisible baptism by the Spirit, the visible baptism by water is vain, and without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by the Spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed.

asaph

Acts 2
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40   And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41   Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 10
44   While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45   And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

We all know that water does not save us in and of itself
What??
If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version,  he does not possess the Holy Spirit!

A person can imitate the real thing.

1 John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

asaph

I am glad you see this.

We don't stop here,  though....

We say, that a person can say he, believes, but really doesn't  and gets himself baptized; and deceives himself.

The evidence is in what they say and what they do, and, what are they doing for Jesus sake?

Most that beleieve these doctrines, tend to their own salvation, spending very little time if any sharing the Gospel with others..

Blessings,
Petro

Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in something, and a being raised from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if water baptism is in view.
On the other hand, if the Spirit is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently raised from the Spirit. This would imply further that the new convert would not have the Spirit, and therefore, would not belong to the Lord (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6). This conclusion obviously is wrong  thus demonstrating that the element of the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 is not the Holy Spirit. By default, it must be water baptism.


http://www.christiancourier.com/


 

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I know the following example is rather simple, but I hope it encourages some additional thought on these issues.

For a child of God, new or mature:

Our "old man" was crucified on the cross with HIM.

Our "old man" was buried after the cross with HIM.

Our "new man" arose from the dead with HIM.

Our "new man" lives because HE LIVES.

...........

In Christ,
Tom

ollie,

Sigh!!

Before you even analyse the verses, you already want the passages to be speaking of water baptism.
 
Your analyses of scripture leaves little to be desired.

All one has to do is read scripture in the lite of scripture.

The Apostle is asking you a question?

Rom 6
3 Don't you know, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 
John's baptism was for the remission of sin.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a Baptism into Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Col 2, doesn't even come close to speaking of water baptism, at all. But, it does speak of a spiritual BAPTISM, performed by God the Holy Spirit, and on this one things is what our faith rests on, not on somehting performed with human hands.

I don't know about you, but I have been BAPTIZED by ONE BAPTISM (His death, burial and ressurection) into the ONE Body of Christ, by ONE Spirit.  

ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Do you know this, to be true.??

Then you follow your line of reasoning by stating;


Assumptions and presumptions, this is all there is, in your statements, its like you are not even trying to understand scripture.

Why even post them?

But I say keep working at it, one thing we can be sure of;

The Word of God powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

God Bless,

Petro

Thats some Good teaching Petro


Brother Love :)

The words baptism or baptized are employed in several different senses in the New Testament.

Sometimes baptism refers to the overwhelming power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) which was bestowed upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4), and which later was granted to the household of Cornelius in order to demonstrate divine approval of God's acceptance of the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-47; 11:15-17).

Usually, however, when the term baptized is employed, the reference is to a water ritual associated with the remission of sins  whether during John the Baptizer's ministry (Mark 1:4), or later in the Christian age (Acts 2:38). On the day of Pentecost, there were thus two baptisms one upon the apostles (2:4), Holy Spirit baptism and another in water for penitent believers (2:38, 41).

It appears strange to some, therefore, that Ephesians 4:5 stresses the fact that there is but one baptism. What is the one baptism? Spirit baptism, or water baptism?

It is clearly water baptism for the following reasons:


The baptism of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) was water baptism  as evidenced by the fact that it had a human administrator. It was to last till the end of the world. Consequently, Holy Spirit baptism is eliminated.

Bptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning. There is nothing in this passage to indicate a figurative usage.

This passage is a strong argument against Holy Spirit baptism today. Underline one baptism, and jot this note: The age-lasting baptism of Matthew 28:19. No Holy Spirit baptism today.


http://www.christiancourier.com/

I BELIEVE

I believe that the entire Bible is inspired of God, is without error and is of plenary authority (II Tim. 3:16; II Peter 1:21).
We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6).
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and is true God and man (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:3,4; Phil. 2:6-9).
I believe that man is saved by grace through faith. Man is depraved, utterly sinful and his efforts, regardless of how well intended, cannot earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift made available by the complete payment for sin through Christ's death on the cross (Romans 3:9-12; 3:24-28; 4:1-8; I Cor. 1:18-31; Eph. 2:8,9).
I believe in the eternal security of the believer (Romans 8:1; 8:29-34; 8:38,39; Eph. 1:13,14; Phil. 1:6).
We believe that the church of this dispensation is the Body of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23; 3:1-6) which is to be distinguished from the prophesied, earthly kingdom of Christ. The historical manifestation of the Body of Christ began with the Apostle Paul before he wrote his first epistle (I Thess. 2:14-16 cf. Acts 13:45,46; Phil. 1:5, 6; cf. Acts 16; I Cor. 12:13, 27 cf. Acts 18).
I believe the mission and commission of the Body of Christ is to proclaim the message of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:14-21) and to preach Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:8,9). The "gospel of the grace of God" is referred to as "my gospel" by the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 2:16; 16:25). It is this gospel with which we are entrusted today (I Thess. 2:4).
I acknowledge that the above articles of faith do not exhaust the content of our faith which is the entire Word of God. However, I believe this list distinguishes some basic truths which are commonly disregarded today.

Brother Love :)

What is your definition of faith?

Sometimes??

It is clear from both at Acts 1:5, water baptism is differentiated from Baptism with the Holy Spirit, anybody can see, it plainly is not the same thing.

As for Acts 2:4, from the imediate previous verses; it is plain it is an..................;

1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

...........out of earth experience, has nothing to do with water, and it is a filling, fulfilling the prophecy Jesus spoke at John 14:16-18;

16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

You are completely missing the teaching of the significance of day of Pentecost.

This is in fulfillment of the OT, promise, of God;

Eze 36
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

You are allowing yourself to be seduced, by believing the things (opinions and commentaries) you read by other men.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is accomplished by FAITH in God, and not triggered by water baptism, one must BELIEVE in order to be water baptized, otherwise, water baptism without believing GOD, is useless.

Jesus warned his disciples;

Mat 24
4   Let no man decieved you.

I am afraid you have allowed yourself to be deceived.

1 Jhn 2
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


If you need and trust in mans opinions and commentarials to teach you, it is evidence you may not possess the Holy Spirit, I say examine yourself, in the lite of the Word of God.


As I posted before in answer to asaph, when Cornelius and his household were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and did magnify God. (Acts 10:46)

Peter and the 6 did not ask; What did they say, can anyone interpret??  The scriptures are clear, they heard and where all amazed;

45  .................,because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They knew that these had received the Holy Spirit because they glorified and magnified Jesus their Lord and God.

Paul explains this;

1 Cor 12
3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Have you ever read this verse before??  Does it mean anything to you??




No Holy Spirit baptism today??

This is extreme, and borders on heresy, I am surprised any Christian would even consider such a teaching, when they are supposed have Gods Spirit and His written word, which can teach and lead them.

It is absolutely, absurd...

There is only one human administrator today who claims authority to wtaer baptize people with the holy spirit; and that is the Catholic pope;

I suppose you agree with those who follow him..


Petro

ollie,

You asked about where doies it say Israel, shall return to the land given to their fathers on another thread. (attacks in Israe started by jabez)

When you are studying this, you may consider;

Eze 36:26-28.

But don't jump to conclusions, that this is speaking totally to Israel the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ was never given or promised land on this earth.

But the nation was.

Blessings,

Petro

Some Good teaching Petro, Amen

Eph 2
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 3
5   Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Mat 5
5   Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Rev 21
7   He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

There is a lot of mention about inheritance. Do you suppose that this would include soil?

asaph

God is making a new body of two peoples, the gentiles and jews, these are the ones who shall inherit all things, because of Jesus who is heir of all things and we are co heirs with HIM.

But the promise is a new heaven and a new earth, this are the things Abraham, Issac and Jacob looked for.

Heb 11
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Concerning Abraham;

9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Ezekiel 36, speaks of a time when the natural offspring of Jacob will be dealt with by God, and will be Saved by HIM in the latter days, and shall dwell safely in their own land, even those, who make up Spiritual Israel will be there.  It will be in that period of time known as Jacobs troubles in the DAY of THE LORD, a literal 1000 year reign of Messiah on the earth.

See, how being off on one point, places you off on several doctrines taught by scripture.

It is called the cumulative error factor.


Blessings,

Petro

On the part of petro's and all Gracers involved, I agree with wholly.  But in the otherside, the verses like Rom 6, Acts 2, amd mark 16 is being used over and over again despite being adressed.  Notice that they (Gracers) did not go to other verses but answered the baptism verses by itself.  And when the verses has been answered (by gracers), little has been done (by the other side) to correct the explinations.  I think clearly, the battle is already won.

See, how being off on one point, places you off on several doctrines taught by scripture. Petro
Really?

Hey Petro,
The meek will still inherit the Earth along with the commonwealth of Israel. Believest thou this or wilt thou find thyself surprised when in happens.

I wonder if the people of Israel today are descended from Abe. They cannot be the fulfilment of prophecy indicating a return to the land because they are in the land in unbelief. Listen to Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30
1   And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2   And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3   That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Moses said that they must turn to the Lord before they return to the Land. So the so called Jews who are there today cannot be the fulfillment of this prophecy. They are in unbelief. Without us this promise will not happen. The church needs to seek out, witness to, and pray for those Jews in the lands where they have been scrattered so that they will get saved and return to the promised land in belief. We need to pray that many Christian Jews will return to Godless Israel and have a real impact on the unbelievers there. Already there are a few there who are true Jews. Pray for them.

Sorry about the subject change.

Why do you think that Baptism has to be an either or situation? Both water and Spiritual baptism agree, they are one in agreement. This does not contradict the one baptism statement in Eph. 4 anymore than the Trinity contradicts the oneness of God.

1John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Spirit and the water and the blood agree in one. I can't say it any better than that.

 He, Jesus Christ, came as the Son of God that we might be born of God and have the divine life (John 10:10; 20:31). It is in His Son that God gives us eternal life (vv. 11-13). Jesus, the man of Nazareth, was attested to be the Son of God by the water He went through in His baptism (Matt. 3:16-17; John 1:31), by the blood He shed on the cross (John 19:31-35; Matt. 27:50-54), and also by the Spirit He gave not by measure (John 1:32-34; 3:34). By these three God has testified that Jesus is His Son given to us (vv. 7-10), that in Him we may receive His eternal life by believing into His name (vv. 11-13; John 3:16, 36; 20:31). The water of baptism terminates people of the old creation by burying them; the blood shed on the cross redeems those whom God has chosen from among the old creation; and the Spirit, who is the truth, the reality in life (Rom. 8:2), germinates those whom God has redeemed out of the old creation, by regenerating them with the divine life. Thus they are born of God and become His children (John 3:5, 15; 1:12-13) and live a life that practices the truth (1:6), the will of God (2:17), the righteousness of God (2:29), and the love of God (3:10-11) for His expression.

asaph

asaph,

The whole book of Deutoromy does not consist of one chapter.

I gave you the passage of scripture which is the end of the matter for the nation of Israel concerning the word of promise that God gave the nation.

You must read the entire book of Duetoromy begining at

Chap1
1  These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
2  (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3  And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

If you doubt that this account written in the Book of Deutoromy was not recounted to the Nation of Israel in one day then I can understand why you are so confused about this matter, consider how the passage ends;

Deut 30
18  I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20  That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
31:1  And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.

All God requires of His nation is that they, turn from their wicked ways to observe His Commandments which He commanded Moses to give them at, Mt Horeb (Sinai) this was the Covenant He made with them at Horeb (Deut 5:1-4) and then Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments , not once does God require them to return to the Levitical Sacrificial Mosaic sytem of Worship, after they break the covenant, and the blessings and curses comne upon them.

And please note at Deut 30:1, that it is not prefaced by the requirement that they be saved (as you seem to presume) but that they simply recall the covenant establshed with the blessings and the curses, and to simply return (Deut 30:2) (have a desire) to obey God's voice according to all that HE commanded in the day HE made the covenant with them.  This is reiterated forty times, in this book.

That then the LORD thy God will turn their captivity, and have compassion upon them, and will return and gather them from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thm. (parapharsed) (Deut 30:3)

Their assembling in the land according to Zecharaiah is for the purpose of bringing them through the fire (making them a gazing stock for the nations, as HE deals with there sin) and purges them of their Sin.(Mal 3:1-12, Zec 13:8-9)

Ezekiel says;

Eze 39
25  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26  After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Note verse 28, "Then shall they know that I am the Lord..."

Amos 9
14  And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Your attention is invited to verses 11-14, in the Hebrew-English version, the reading is as follows for verse 14;

14  I will restore My people Israel. They shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them. .............

And if you still think, it is after they are saved, Zechariah disagrees with you..

Zec 12
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7  The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8  In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I encourage you to read the entire Book of Deutroromy, this will edify you and make it clear to you.

I will answer the other portion of your post, later........................

Petro

Josh 21:43-45
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

You don't know what your talking about..
 
It is well known among scholars, that these verses are not found in the earlier manuscripts, at best they appear in the margins of the latin vulgate around the 16th century. (I knew there was a reason not to trust the Latin version).

So this verse proves nothing, concerning the point you are trying to make. Perhaps this may help you.

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/25-0004.htm

"The italicized section [in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; and there are three witnesses on the earth] is found only in late manuscripts." (Amplified note)

"Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [add] testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the." (NIV note)

"The modern eclectic, or 'critical,' text of the Greek New Testament and the Majority Text omit the words from in heaven [v. 7] through on earth [v. 8]. Only 4 or 5 very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek." (NKJV note)

"The texts read, 'the Spirit, and the water', and & c., omitting all the words from 'in heaven' to 'in earth' [v. 8] inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text." (Bullinger note)

"It is generally agreed that this verse [1 John 5:7, KJV] has no manuscript authority and has been inserted." (Scofield note)

For you to even make such a claim, that this water is refering water baptism which makes one born of God, is a stretch of your imagination. What else can be said??

John opens this passage of scripture by writing this;

1 Jhn 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:.........

and closes;

13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now in fairness to the word, lets examine what these scribes wanted inserted into this passage of scripture.

The same Apostle John does write of the witness of the Spirit, the Blood and the Water, testifying of the truth and agreeing one with the other.

And physical water baptism is nowhere to be found.

He tells us, at that Jesus himself spoke these words;

Jhn 15
26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27  And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John records the words of John the Baptist, who  himself bares witness;

Jhn 1
28  These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35  Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

And at;

Jhn 19, the Apostles bares witness;
30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32  Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33  But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35  And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36  For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37  And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

John the beloved apostle was there at the foot of the cross, the same day these things happened.

and again writes;

Jhn 19
35  And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. ( NKJ)


If we receive the witness of men, [the testimony of the blood and water from the Apostle John] the witness of God [the testimony of the Holy Spirit] is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. (1 Jhn 5:9 NKJ)

The water and the blood, the testimony of men, plus the witness of the Spirit, that coming from the Holy Spirit, establishes the truth- Jesus is the Christ and believing on Him gives eternal life.

The witness of God is the testimony of the Holy Spirit within us that we know that Christ is the Son of the Living God. This witness is in us as the Holy Spirit bears witness in our conscience. (Rom 8:16; 9:1)

1 Jhn 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself...............( NKJ)

Deut 19
15.........at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. ( KJV)

The witnesses of the Spirit, the water and the blood all agree in one.

So what is the conclusion, of what the Apsotle John has testified concerning the Spirit, Blood and the Water.

1. By the witness of man, the Apostle John seeing and testifying of the blood and water coming out of the side, that Jesus was the one they pierced and He was in fact the Messiah, and only our hope of salvation.

2. By the witness of the Holy Spirit, as He witnesses in our hearts, we have received the witness of God in us.

3. By two or three witnesses, we have an established truth.

The testimony of each and all three agrees in one.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 Jhn 5:11 (NKJ)

As you can see, John did testify concenring these things, but not in the context you have, by adding your version of what you believe to be Gods word, which is nothing other than pretext.

Sorry, but your little shpiel doesn't wash with scripture, and lacks biblical foundation.



Blessings,
Petro

It is not true that 1 John 5:7 is absent in all pre-l6th century Greek manuscripts and New Testament translations. The text is found in eight extant Greek manuscripts, and five of them are dated before the 16th century (Greek miniscules 88, 221, 429, 629, 636). Furthermore, there is abundant support for 1 John 5:7 from the Latin translations. There are at least 8000 extant Latin manuscripts, and many of them contain 1 John 5:7f; the really important ones being the Old Latin, which church fathers such as Tertullian (AD 155-220) and Cyprian (AD 200-258) used. Now, out of the very few Old Latin manuscripts with the fifth chapter of First John, at least four of them contain the Comma. Since these Latin versions were derived from the Greek New Testament, there is reason to believe that 1 John 5:7 has very early Greek attestation, hitherto lost. There is also reason to believe that Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (AD 340-420), which contains the Johannine Comma, was translated from an untampered Greek text he had in his possession and that he regarded the Comma to be a genuine part of First John. Jerome in his Prologue to the Canonical Epistles wrote, "Irresponsible translators left out this testimony [i. e., 1 John 5:7f] in the Greek codices." Edward F. Hills concluded, "It was not trickery that was responsible for the inclusion of the Johannine Comma in the Textus Receptus, but the usage of the Latin speaking church."

This leads us to the so-called "promise" of Erasmus. Westcott and Hort advocate Bruce Metzger made this claim, which became the popular argument against the Johannine Comma. He wrote, "Erasmus promised that he would insert the Comma Johanneum, as it is called, in future editions if a single Greek manuscript could be found that contained the passage. At length such a copy was found—or made to order." This view against the authenticity of 1 John 5:7f is parroted by many even today. Is this what truly happened? H. J. de Jonge of the faculty of theology, Leiden University, an authority on Erasmus, says that Metzger’s view on Erasmus’ promise "has no foundation in Erasmus’ work. Consequently it is highly improbable that he included the difficult passage because he considered himself bound by any such promise." Yale University professor Roland Bainton, another Erasmian expert, agrees with de Jong, furnishing proof from Erasmus’ own writing that Erasmus inclusion of 1 John 5:7f was not due to a so-called "promise" but the fact that he believed ‘the verse was in the Vulgate and must therefore have been in the Greek text used by Jerome." The Erasmian "promise" is thus a myth!

It has been suggested that the Johannine Comma did not come from the apostle John himself but from an unknown person who invented and inserted it into 1 John 5 so that Christianity would have a clear Trinitarian proof text. Up until this point in time, no one has been able to identify this mysterious person who tried to "help" the church. He is probably a fictional character. In any case, it is highly unlikely that 1 John 5:7f is the work of a well-meaning interpolator. When we look at the text itself, the phrase, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit," naturally reflects Johannine authorship (cf. John 1:1, 14). An interpolator would rather have used the more familiar and perhaps stronger Trinitarian formula—"the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." "The Word" or "The Logos" of 1 John 5:7f points to the apostle John as its source, for it is distinctively John who used the term "the Word" to mean "Christ" in all his writings.

There is nothing in the Johannine Comma that goes against the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It is thoroughly Biblical and theologically accurate in its Trinitarian statement. There is no good reason why we should not regard it as authentic and employ it as the clearest proof-text in the Scripture for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

(Copied from – Foundation Magazine)

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I post this for thought and additional study, not debate.

First, if you are a child of God, you have been baptized by the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit), with or without water baptism. I love my brothers and sisters in Christ who have been baptized in water and have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings or cause any to question their faith.

What follows is a series of questions and answers I believe the Holy Bible supports with overwhelming evidence. The end question is where these questions and answers takes you.

Was there water and blood prior to the cross?

Yes. There was the blood of animals used in sacrifice and water baptism as a shadow of things to come. Water baptism was a cleansing ritual.
__________

Was there water and blood at the cross?

Yes. There was the precious blood of Jesus, water from HIS side, and our Lord and Saviour, THE LIVING WATER.
__________

Is there water and blood after the cross?

Yes. The precious blood of Jesus cleanses HIS children of all unrighteousness. The shadow of cleansing by water became the reality of the perfect sacrifice and cleansing by the very blood of our precious Lord and Saviour. The water is not earthly water, rather it is LIVING WATER, springing up unto eternal life through and in Jesus Christ. We have the LIVING WATER in our hearts.

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

asaph,

You have reduced your argument to that of a coma.

You simply have swallowed the hook line and sinker of it. Evidenced by you posting the article from this allmilinialist paper, which confirms you trust in others to expound scriptutres to you, not the Spirit of God, which you claim to possess.

The fact is that regardless of whether these verses are authenic or not, they do not confirm your interpretation of the water as refering to water baptism, it is a deceptive and weak argument.

While I am not a subscriber to the Wescott &  Hort work, this coma, remains an unsolved matter and could very well have been added to the latin version to bolster the fight against ArianISM, in the early fourth century embraced by the eastern portion of the church.

Though these verses are not necessary to prove the triune Godhead (as there are many others), in heaven or the earth, our faith in the central doctrine of Christainity, is based on the total sum, of all that is written, not just two verses.

The trinity is not the issue, herein, it is your interpretation of what the witness of the water is.

And it is not your water baptism, but  a testimony to the diety of Jesus, The Spirit of God testifies, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the Water also on the earth, gives testimony and agrees that it is Jesus, who baptized them into Moses in the cloud and the sea and  "THAT ROCK" (1 Cor 10:1-4) that followed them in the desert those 40 years, and provided them the same spiritual meat and drink:
............"for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:and that Rock was Christ."

And the Blood, was the same Blood, offered up at the altar (Lev 17:11)

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

You think this speaking of the blood of bulls and goats, which could never take away sin??

If you read the scriptures superficialy, you would answer in the affirmative, the scuiptures are careful to tell us, that the blood of these animals could never take away sin.

But Jesus, after once shedding His blood once and for all sat down at the right hand of God, until his enemies be made His footstool.

And it is His blood which testifies together with the Spirit and the Water, both in heaven and earth, that he is the Sacrificial  Lamb of the Everlasting Covenant, which was ratified with His blood.

You and others who speak out of both sides of your mouth, while claiming to believe the Blood of this Covenant, deny its efficacy in as much as it covers all sin, because you concentrate on the physical, instead of the spiritual, so you work and teach that work is counted towards salvation.

The Spirit , The Water, and the Blood agree, that Jesus is the Christ, this is what John had in view, when and if he spoke the words attributed to him.

1 Jhn 5
10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Faith in the Living Word of God, produces the Holy Spirit, not any act of  any external work.

Blessings,

Petro

Amen Tom,

Only by studying the Word of God can one gleam these truths from the Word of God..

These are great an precious promises.

God Bless,
Petro

Good teaching Brother BEP, Amen

The Lord’s instructions to His apostles that are set forth in Matthew 28:19 pertain to the time in Israel’s program when the "gospel of the kingdom" will be going out to "all nations" and they will be "teaching all nations." The specified time for that was not immediately following the Lord’s return to heaven. But rather in accordance with the Lord’s teachings regarding the climactic stage of God’s program with Israel, it would come after repentance had been given to Israel and the final installment to Israel’s program involving the day of the Lord had begun. Then the "gospel of the kingdom" would be "preached in all the world for a witness to all nations." And in view of the fact that it will be those of the "nations" that will be hearing the "gospel of the kingdom," (who unlike Israel know not by nature the true and living God and the reality of the nature of the Godhead), they will be instructed in the truth of Who the true and living God is and then commanded to be baptized in the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (the three persons of the Godhead) when any of them respond positively to the "gospel of the kingdom."

The apostles’ preaching and practice in Acts 2:38, however, is not to the "nations" in accordance with Matthew 28:19-20. And the apostles knew it, hence they don’t operate on the instructions of Matthew 28. Instead their preaching and practice is to Israel in accordance with the extension of mercy and forbearance that God was giving to Israel following the rejection of their Christ. During that extension God was giving "repentance to Israel" before the scheduled final installment to Israel’s program was ready to begin, in which He would have His day of purging and avenging wrath. Therefore Peter preached the truth to the people of Israel regarding who Jesus of Nazareth is, (that He is their Christ and that they had rejected Him), and then he responded to those who were persuaded of the truth regarding what he said. When he did so the issue wasn’t one of baptizing them in the name of the Godhead, (as if they were ones who by nature didn’t know the true and living God but now were acknowledging the Godhead and were now identifying themselves with Him instead of idolatry or atheism). Rather the issue with the believing Jews was one of the apostles baptizing them "in the name of Jesus Christ," (as ones who were now acknowledging the truth that Jesus is their Christ, and that they were now identifying themselves with Him and disassociating themselves from the rebellious element in Israel, which was soon to be destroyed). Hence the difference between the situation in Acts 2:38 and the Lord’s instructions to His apostles in Matthew 28:19.

Of course the use of water baptisms was a natural thing in God’s program with Israel, seeing He dealt with them as "children" and so employed various overt "rudiments of the world," like water baptisms, along with other "carnal ordinances" in His interactions and dealings with them. Things, however, are different in this present dispensation of God’s grace with both Israel’s program suspended and God dealing with us as "sons" and not "children." Water baptisms now have no role, function, or validity in this present dispensation.

Real Good Study Bro

Water baptisms now have no role, function, or validity in this present dispensation.

Amen

Strong's Number: 907
Transliterated: baptizo
Phonetic: bap-tid'-zo

Text:  from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N.T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: --Baptist, baptize, wash.


Strong's Number: 911
Transliterated: bapto
Phonetic: bap'-to

Text:  a primary verb; to overwhelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the N.T. only in a qualified or specially, sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): --dip.

So now you will jump to conclusions and say, it speaks of water, when it could be speaking of blood.

Isa 1
18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The baptism of John for sure was in water. But the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire is not.

Blessings,

Petro

Jesus's baptizo, is with the Holy Spirit and Fire.

The Word of God:

Only"ONE"Baptism (Ephesians 4:5)

Brother Love :)

The Word of God:

Only"ONE"Baptism (Ephesians 4:5)

Brother Love

I believe what the Word of God says Just ONE Baptism.

Amen Bro

Dear Ollie

From Blueletterbible.org

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm
++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1068183026-6411.html

       the Word by the context can means water but also Identification.  Now to assume that every word Baptism means water, then that means in Luke 12:50, it means water too:

  Luke 12
50   But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

       Are we to assume that every word that says Baptism means Water?  No, we ought to interpret words by the sentence and subject-context.

agur

agur,

Good point....

The most glaringly obvious point of Jesus words, at;

  Luke 12
50  But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

is;  that Jesus had already been water baptized.

Blessings, Petro

My other cheek is turned.

asaph

My other cheek is turned.

asaph


Your out of cheeks Bro, what are you going to do now?  :)

Brother Love :)

asaph,

Did you say cheek or cheeks??

Got anymore scriptures you rely on??, that cinch up the gift of the Holy Spirit for you..?

Nothing has been proved by you or others to this point..

But we are open to sound scriptures.

Blessings,

Petro

P.S.   Don't think of yourself as a martyr, bro, these excersices should encourage you to use your sword more effectively,  whats the point to possessing it, if you lose it to in your first encounter?

My question is are you doing anything for the Lord??

Nothing has been lost and no amount of proof can convince you. You are steeped in your doctrine without any pliability at all. I have never heard you say, on any topic, that you are wrong. So you must think you are 100% right. You do not have a clue. So do not give me your self righteous sermons.

This ends my conversation with the hypocrites on this forum. (not including blackeyedpeas). I appreciate BEP even though we disagree on issues. Thanks BEP for your good attitude. The others can learn from you.

signing off,

asaph

 

asaph,

You are wrong on both counts.

And I suggest, that, it is;

 You who are steeped in your doctrine without any pliability at all. I have never heard you say, on any topic, that you are wrong. So you must think you are 100% right. You do not have a clue. So do not give me your self righteous sermons.

Have a good day..

Petro

NO WAY.

The Crusader

                Which one washes away sins?  Jesus on the cross or our willingness to be baptized or to finish being baptized to wash away our sins?  If it were to be Baptism, then why need Jesus?

agur

Good question, what do the scriptures say;

1 Pet 3
18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Water is not in view here at all, it is only symbolically used to point out the true baptism which saves, and it is in nothing other than FAITH in operation of God the Holy Spirit who seals the believers.

Should believers be watrer baptised, yes; is it a essential to be saved, NO, because the outward sign of watewr baptism is that of giving public testimony, unfortunately this is lost in the ceremony of the way water baptisms are held  today, they are not public at all, they usually are done in the privacy of a church building, not openly for the world to see.


Blessings,
Petro


Blessings,
Petro

I feel it is an act of obediance. We must consider those who are not physically capable of being baptized...the ill, disabled or elderly.  Certianly they aren't condemned because they were not baptized.