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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 21404 times)
Jabez
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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2003, 04:03:54 PM »

I mean no hard feeling,and iam sorry if i havent grasped your full posting.I understand where you are coming from.My mind keeps going to Matthew 28:19 and John 3:5.I have enjoyed our converse today,but its time to go hunting...lol

GOD BLESS Brother!!
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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2003, 04:06:54 PM »

I mean no hard feeling,and iam sorry if i havent grasped your full posting.I understand where you are coming from.My mind keeps going to Matthew 28:19 and John 3:5.I have enjoyed our converse today,but its time to go hunting...lol

GOD BLESS Brother!!

OK Bro, Dont kill Bambi Grin

Grace & Peace
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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2003, 09:46:13 PM »

Was Paul sent to Baptize?

Every one of the twelve had to emphatically confess, "Christ sent me to baptize". But, Paul just as emphatically declared: "Christ sent me not to baptize". Now, is there any difference in these two statements? Those who water baptize say that there is not one bid of difference! Well, what do words mean then? Was Paul lying? Didn't Paul say what he meant to say? Why do men have to twist his words? Some say , that Paul's main business was preaching the gospel and that he delegated the less important work of baptizing converts to others.

But I choose to believe Paul when he said, "Christ sent me not to baptize." Why then, should I be called a heretic when I commit no sin other than to take the words of the great apostle Paul and tell the world that "Christ sent me not to baptize."?

If water baptism is indeed an act of obedience to Christ; if it is one of the ordinances of the church; if it is a sacramental means of grace whereby we receive forgiveness; if it is the divinely appointed means of confessing Christ to the world; if it is our burial with Christ; if it is the answer of a good conscience toward God; how can we understand Paul's light treatment of it? If water baptism was necessary; if it accomplished anything; if it was a basis for Christian fellowship, how could Paul in any sense of the word say: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. (1Cor. 1:14). Listen, if water baptism is any of these things that men and tradition claim for it, is it not strange that we do not find even one world of positive instruction in all of Paul's epistles for its observance? Paul gives us definite instruction concerning the observance of the Lord's

Table and is careful to state that he received this truth by revelation from the Lord. There were more sins and trouble at Corinth over the wrong observance of the Lord's Table that were caused by baptism, but Paul didn't therefore thank God that he had not given them the Lord's Table, nor did he state, "Christ sent me not to observe the Lord's Table. The argument from silence is a strong one, and I think there is no valid reason for practicing water baptism in this new grace dispensation.

Paul gives no command to water baptize in any of his epistles. But not only does Paul omit any command to water baptize in any of his epistles, he clearly states exactly the opposite--- "Christ sent me not to baptize." Hence, if you choose to water baptize, don't fault the liberals and spiritualizers who choose to make any other part of the Bible to mean something different from what it says.

If we fail to recognize the transitional character of the book of Acts we will never understand Paul's practice of water baptism , nor many other things---circumcision, vows, animal sacrifices, tongues, miracles, etc. of his early ministry. You see, Paul was saved during the Pentecostal administration of the gospel of the Kingdom, and Ananias was sent to him with the same message as was presented to any Jewish believer of that day, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). It was out of this dispensational situation that Paul emerged into the new dispensation which God committed to him.

This emergence was not a sudden one, but it was gradual, covering a period of about 25 years. As Paul progressively received more and more revelation of God's purpose and program in this present dispensation of grace (Acts 26:16; 2 Cor. 12:1), he came to realize the significance of the omission of water baptism from his commission and the abiding reality of the One Baptism of (Eph. 4:5.)

By the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he had no doubt realized these things fully and clearly, even to the extent that he could thank God that he had baptized none there, save a very few. People talk about unity today, but baptism is one of the most divisive issues of all however, I believe that the only basis for real unity, is God's truth for this dispensation of grace concerning the One Baptism of that distinctive body truth which we find only in Paul's epistles. Nothing less than the real baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ can unify Christendom.

Believers need to understand that water baptism is scriptural; it just needs to be placed in the right dispensation, and then all becomes clear. Only confusion and disunity results from trying to place things into the wrong dispensation.

Thus, once again, dispensational Bible study comes to the rescue and shows us how and why things are the way they are. It is only when you fail to study from the dispensational viewpoint that things become confusing and get out of hand.

Why did Paul say he had baptised two others in these same verses?Also the household of Stephanas.

 Paul said what He said because of the division among the Corinthians about calling themselves after men. He was glad he had not baptised any of them because of their division. This division over names concerned Paul that if he had baptised any of them they might say he did it in his name. Therefore he was glad he had not baptised any of them except those mentioned because they would have twisted it. It does not mean Paul did not believe in the salvation of baptism. And it is true Paul was sent to preach the gospel not baptise. Anyone can baptise.

 1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
 11.  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
 12.  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
 13.  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
 15.  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

 16.  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 17.  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


Why do people pick and choose only the scriptures they want to observe and ignore the others?
It all has to be put together for the complete will of God for man.
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2003, 11:23:18 PM »

Quote Ollie: Why do people pick and choose only the scriptures they want to observe and ignore the others?
It all has to be put together for the complete will of God for man.

Amen

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."
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« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2003, 11:33:38 PM »

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 1 of 2)

 

BAPTISM: means To Place Into, or On; For The Purpose Of Identification

It is a surprise to many people, including Christians, to learn that the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to immerse into water! Of course there is a "water baptism" in the Bible, but the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to place into water. "Water Baptism" is only one (1) of twelve (12) different baptisms spoken of in the Scriptures. Years of tradition have taught most people to think of "water" every time they read the word "baptism" in their Bible. This has caused great confusion.

Just a simple examination of the usage of the term "BAPTISM" in the Bible will teach us NOT to think of water as part of the meaning of the word, but to substitute the meaning "PLACE INTO" or "PLACE ON." The context in each case will determine what it is that someone or something is being placed into.

We do not have the space to look into all twelve (12) different usages of the term, but we will look at five (5) of them. There are three (3) "BAPTISMS" found in just one verse, Matthew 3:11, which says:

"I INDEED BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: BUT HE THAT COMETH AFTER ME IS MIGHTIER THAN I, WHOSE SHOES I AM NOT WORTH TO BEAR: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE."

 

BAPTISM #1

"WATER BAPTISM"

(John Baptized with water)

John the Baptist placed people  into water or, as some may prefer it said, John placed water on people. Either way John's Baptism was a "water baptism." Its purpose was to identify the believing remnant of Israel with their Messiah - Jesus Christ. (By the way, the reason Jesus Christ was water baptized was for the same reason, only in reverse.) According to John 1:31, Jesus Christ was identified to Israel, and Israel to Him, through water baptism. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus Christ who announced to Israel His coming and prepared them to be received by their King through the cleansing of water baptism. This is why John announced that one greater--with a greater baptism--was coming.

 

BAPTISM #2

"BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

The greater person John was speaking of was the Lord Jesus Christ. According to the testimony of John, when Christ came He would have a greater baptism. John baptized with water, but Jesus Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This was a reference to the Day of Pentecost which took place after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back into heaven - see Acts 1:5-8 and Acts 2:1-5. From heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ "Poured Out" or placed His Spirit on that believing remnant of Israel, just as John promised and as was predicted in Joel 2:28-32.

 

BAPTISM #3

"BAPTISM WITH FIRE"

John not only introduced and identified the believing remnant of Israel to Jesus Christ, he also warned unrepenting and unbelieving Israel that Jesus Christ would have two (2) baptisms when he came. Believing Israel would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is the imparting of Life. Unbelieving Israel would be baptized with fire. This "baptism of fire" is the judgement of the fires of hell, according to Matthew 3:12. This will take place when Jesus Christ shall place unbelievers into the fires of hell. Thank the Lord, Jesus Christ has saved us who believe from that baptism!

Already in this one verse we have seen three (3) different types of BAPTISM; baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and even baptism with fire. Notice only one involved water!

Let this be a lesson to you. Do not think of "water" every time you read the word "baptism." Let the Bible tell you what the baptism is into. Then be sure to believe what the Bible says and not what some men will say the Bible means.

 

BAPTISM #4

"BAPTISM INTO DEATH"

For the fourth (4th) baptism, see Mark 10:38,39,45. In this passage a baptism yet laid ahead for the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the future for James and John as well.

When our Lord spoke of a baptism that he was facing, he was speaking of his death on the Cross. He was placed on the cross for the purpose of having our sins placed on him. And, by identifying Himself with our sins, He paid for them in His death. Jesus Christ was baptized into our death. This is also spoken of in Luke 12:50 and again in I Peter 3:21. It is called:

"THE BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES"!

In the case of James and John this baptism speaks of their martyr's death. Jesus Christ prophesied and history has recorded that both James and John were placed into death preaching the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They died for the sake of others - so that others may hear the gospel and be saved. This is the baptism that Paul was speaking about in I Corinthians 15:29.

 

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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2003, 11:35:09 PM »

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 2 of 2)

BAPTISM #5

"BAPTISM INTO CHRIST"

The fifth (5th) and final BAPTISM we shall look at is a baptism which is taught exclusively by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. It is the fact that the Apostle Paul mentions water baptism only one time in all of his epistles. This one time is found in I Corinthians 1:13-17. As water baptism continued into the New Gentile age, it brought confusion and division (just as it is doing in the churches today). Paul's solution was simple: stop water baptizing! But how could he decide to stop? Didn't Jesus Christ command him to baptize? No! After Paul thanked God and he didn't baptize more than he did, he states in verse 17:

"FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT."

Paul was the Apostle of a new age of God's grace. His message and ministry to the Gentiles was distinctly different from the message and ministry of the Twelve Apostles to Israel. Water baptism belonged to the message God had for the nation of Israel. However, there is a baptism taught by the Apostle that is for this age. Be careful to notice it is not water baptism. Paul writes in I Corinthians 12:13.

"FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT."

The baptism that the Apostle Paul taught was a baptism into Christ. This baptism is the placing of the Believer (today) into the Body of Christ. It is important for you to realize that in I Corinthians 12:13 (just quoted), the baptizer is not a minister but God the Holy Spirit. From this verse, we can also see that the Holy Spirit does not place the believer into water but into Christ! Here again, we need to remember to believe what the Bible say, and not what men say the Bible means.

This "Baptism I into Christ" is the baptism that identifies the Believer with the saving work of the Cross. Romans 6:3-5 teaches this baptism so clearly. The moment I trusted in Jesus Christ as my Savior, the Holy Spirit of God placed me into Christ's death (the cross where my sins were paid for) and into His burial (the payment is complete) and into Christ's resurrection (where I now have a new life in Christ). Since this "baptism" is the work of the Holy Spirit, some have properly termed this "Spiritual Baptism." Without a doubt it is this baptism that Paul teaches throughout his epistles as seen in Romans 6:3-5, I Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, and Colossians 2:10-13.

Our baptism into Christ is the basis for our forgiveness of sins. This is the real baptism that supersedes any ritual baptism previously taught. It is the reality of all that God has accomplished in my behalf through Jesus Christ!

To protect the truth of this baptism, God instructs us in Ephesians 4:1-6 to:

"KEEP (GUARD) THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT..."

We guard this unity by holding to, and defending His sevenfold unity:

"THERE IS ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT, EVEN AS YE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD, AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL."

According to this verse, there is only one (1) baptism today for the Believer which we are to hold and guard. This baptism is not water baptism. It is the BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. It is the work of the Holy Spirit Himself which has created a spiritual unity all of the Believers today, in Christ. Anyone who is still water baptizing is causing confusion and division by practicing a baptism which we have not been told to continue doing in the church epistles; and by believing in at least two baptisms for today, when the Scriptures tell us to keep the unity of the Spirit by holding to His one baptism.

Putting it all together, this is what we see. John the Baptist offered the nation of Israel forgiveness of their sins through water baptism. Those of the nation who received the baptism with the Holy Kingdom and will be raised to go into the Kingdom which was promised to them and was being proclaimed by Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry. But the baptism of fire did not come as John said it would. The judgement of the baptism of fire has been postponed along with the offer of the Kingdom promised to Israel. In the meantime, God has raised up the Apostle Paul with a message of grace which goes out today to both the rejecting Jew and to Gentiles concerning an equal opportunity they have been given (through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection) to be saved, justified, and forgiven. Upon believing this message, God the Holy Spirit is baptizing these Believers into the Body of Christ. And "IN CHRIST" we have life, and hope, and an inheritance.

Israel was offered life, and hope, and inheritance according to the promises of God in the Old Testament. But we who are saved today were never promised these things. Yet they have been given to us by GRACE.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

PRACTICAL POINT:

If I have been made part of the Body of Christ through the baptism by the Spirit at the moment I believed the gospel; and if it were yet possible that I could lose my salvation and end up in hell, then part of the Body of Christ would be in hell.

This is not possible. I am secure in Christ because God the Holy Spirit put me there. I did not put myself there. Therefore I cannot take myself out. And since it is the Holy Spirit who also seals me in Christ, I am His forever!

II Timothy 2:11-13 teaches exactly this:

"IT IS A FAITHFUL SAYING: FOR IF WE BE DEAD WITH HIM, WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM"

This is the guarantee we have from the Scriptures based upon Believers baptism by the Spirit into Christ's death, burial, resurrection. The verses continue:

"IF WE SUFFER, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: IF WE DENY HIM, HE ALSO WILL DENY US:"

This verse promises us a reward of reigning with Jesus Christ if we are faithful to suffer for Him now. The second half of the verse warns that if we choose not to faithfully suffer for Jesus Christ in this life, then He will deny us the reward of a reigning position with Him in heaven. It does not mean He will deny us heaven because the previous verse has already guaranteed that "WE SHALL LIVE WITH HIM," and the following verse explains why:

"IF WE BELIEVE NOT, YET HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

If in our lifetime we depart from the faith--become unfaithful--even to the point of denying that we believe in Jesus Christ, the verse says, "YET HE (CHRIST) ABIDETH FAITHFUL." We may be unfaithful to Him, but He will remain faithful to us and keep His word by giving us eternal life anyway. The verse explains why He would do this: "HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." The believer is part of the Body of Christ and therefore cannot end up in hell. Jesus Christ will not allow it.

Does this security in Jesus Christ teach that we can now go out and live in sin? No, actually the Scriptures teach the opposite. This security in Jesus Christ will teach us not to live in sin. If you will keep reading all of Romans chapters 6,7, and 8, you will find out our baptism into Jesus Christ has freed us from the power of sin, so that we are no longer a slave to sin. No longer must sin reign in our lives. When sin raises it's ugly head, and we give in to it's temptation, we are forgiven for Christ's sake. But at the same time, the power to put away sin, and to go on living for the Lord, comes through KNOWING you are set free in Christ Jesus. Do as Romans 6:11 instructs - RECKON YOURSELF DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE UNTO GOD!

If you learn anything at all from this book, let it be this: you are hopeless and helpless in yourself to be good enough or to do anything that could please God enough to give you eternal life. However, because of what Jesus Christ has done for you on the Cross, God in his grace is free to receive you when your faith rests in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. By trusting only in the blood of Jesus Christ for your Salvation, God is free to give you eternal life, declaring you righteous because he see you "IN CHRIST." (Philippians 3:9)

"AND BE FOUND IN HIM (CHRIST) NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH."
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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2003, 01:01:07 AM »

I dont know where you stand.So i assume your are against water baptism?How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?Please explain?

**As to the topic i feel the answer is no.**


jabez,


In your mind, is there a difference between what you have written herein;  

"How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?"


which is not found in the Bible and;

............................."the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."  

Found in the following verses; (Mat 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jhn 1:33, Acts 1:5,


Now Jesus, was not baptized with the Holy Ghost, He was baptized with water  by John the Baptist, and according to;

Mat 3
16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Now before this happened, John said to Jesus;

14  .....I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Jesus never needed to be baptized with the Holy Ghost, since He was God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), and according to the testimony of Luke at (Acts 10:38) Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit by God the Father.

Now if you go back to 1 Tim 3:16, for a moment, you will see, this verse is clearly speaking of Jesus and accortding to this verse  Jesus was justified in the Spirit (not by the Spirit);  

Abraham was justified by Faith, in the Spirit also, (not by circumcision) the scripture plainly says he believed God and it was counted (or imputed) unto him for righteousness.

If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then John would never have written the reason why he came baptizing with water; he said he did it to make Jesus known to the nation of Israel (John 1:29-31)

Note;

29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now I am going to leave it hear with you, but; knowing what the scriptures mdeclare to this point.

I would ask myself this question if I believed, water baptism was necessary for salvation or what the purpose of water baptism is;

If John Baptized with water, for the purpose of making Jesus known to Israel, what does it signify; when someone desires to be baptized with water?

If not,  that He knows HIM who Baptizeth with the Holy Ghost

Sounds like a public declaration;

Now, since The wife or husband and their children are sanctified (1 Cor 7:14) by the believing wife or husband, it only stands to reason that entire familys were baptized, such as Cornelius at Acts 10, but it doesn't mean that every person in the family especially among the children or infants knew the Lord, or, rather was known by the Lord, it simply means they had been set aside by God to hear the Gospel of Grace, which the parents would teach them, with the help of the Holy Ghost.

Final point;   Baptism of the Holy Ghost; needs to be defined, I am not sure its teaching,  is biblical, and this is the reason, WHY, there is division in this matter..

I think these words need to be defined..

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2003, 01:11:22 AM »

Was Paul sent to Baptize?

Every one of the twelve had to emphatically confess, "Christ sent me to baptize". But, Paul just as emphatically declared: "Christ sent me not to baptize". Now, is there any difference in these two statements? Those who water baptize say that there is not one bid of difference! Well, what do words mean then? Was Paul lying? Didn't Paul say what he meant to say? Why do men have to twist his words? Some say , that Paul's main business was preaching the gospel and that he delegated the less important work of baptizing converts to others.

But I choose to believe Paul when he said, "Christ sent me not to baptize." Why then, should I be called a heretic when I commit no sin other than to take the words of the great apostle Paul and tell the world that "Christ sent me not to baptize."?

If water baptism is indeed an act of obedience to Christ; if it is one of the ordinances of the church; if it is a sacramental means of grace whereby we receive forgiveness; if it is the divinely appointed means of confessing Christ to the world; if it is our burial with Christ; if it is the answer of a good conscience toward God; how can we understand Paul's light treatment of it? If water baptism was necessary; if it accomplished anything; if it was a basis for Christian fellowship, how could Paul in any sense of the word say: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. (1Cor. 1:14). Listen, if water baptism is any of these things that men and tradition claim for it, is it not strange that we do not find even one world of positive instruction in all of Paul's epistles for its observance? Paul gives us definite instruction concerning the observance of the Lord's

Table and is careful to state that he received this truth by revelation from the Lord. There were more sins and trouble at Corinth over the wrong observance of the Lord's Table that were caused by baptism, but Paul didn't therefore thank God that he had not given them the Lord's Table, nor did he state, "Christ sent me not to observe the Lord's Table. The argument from silence is a strong one, and I think there is no valid reason for practicing water baptism in this new grace dispensation.

Paul gives no command to water baptize in any of his epistles. But not only does Paul omit any command to water baptize in any of his epistles, he clearly states exactly the opposite--- "Christ sent me not to baptize." Hence, if you choose to water baptize, don't fault the liberals and spiritualizers who choose to make any other part of the Bible to mean something different from what it says.

If we fail to recognize the transitional character of the book of Acts we will never understand Paul's practice of water baptism , nor many other things---circumcision, vows, animal sacrifices, tongues, miracles, etc. of his early ministry. You see, Paul was saved during the Pentecostal administration of the gospel of the Kingdom, and Ananias was sent to him with the same message as was presented to any Jewish believer of that day, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). It was out of this dispensational situation that Paul emerged into the new dispensation which God committed to him.

This emergence was not a sudden one, but it was gradual, covering a period of about 25 years. As Paul progressively received more and more revelation of God's purpose and program in this present dispensation of grace (Acts 26:16; 2 Cor. 12:1), he came to realize the significance of the omission of water baptism from his commission and the abiding reality of the One Baptism of (Eph. 4:5.)

By the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he had no doubt realized these things fully and clearly, even to the extent that he could thank God that he had baptized none there, save a very few. People talk about unity today, but baptism is one of the most divisive issues of all however, I believe that the only basis for real unity, is God's truth for this dispensation of grace concerning the One Baptism of that distinctive body truth which we find only in Paul's epistles. Nothing less than the real baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ can unify Christendom.

Believers need to understand that water baptism is scriptural; it just needs to be placed in the right dispensation, and then all becomes clear. Only confusion and disunity results from trying to place things into the wrong dispensation.

Thus, once again, dispensational Bible study comes to the rescue and shows us how and why things are the way they are. It is only when you fail to study from the dispensational viewpoint that things become confusing and get out of hand.

Why did Paul say he had baptised two others in these same verses?Also the household of Stephanas.

 Paul said what He said because of the division among the Corinthians about calling themselves after men. He was glad he had not baptised any of them because of their division. This division over names concerned Paul that if he had baptised any of them they might say he did it in his name. Therefore he was glad he had not baptised any of them except those mentioned because they would have twisted it. It does not mean Paul did not believe in the salvation of baptism. And it is true Paul was sent to preach the gospel not baptise. Anyone can baptise.

 1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
 11.  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
 12.  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
 13.  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
 15.  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

 16.  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 17.  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


Why do people pick and choose only the scriptures they want to observe and ignore the others?
It all has to be put together for the complete will of God for man.


ollie,

I am asking myself, do you know what the saying;

"Baptism of the Holy Ghost"  means??

If so, how does it compare to;

"Baptism with the Holy Ghost",  

please note that it is Jesus who does the Baptizing with the Holy Ghost..according to; the Gospels..

  Petro
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« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2003, 01:26:24 AM »

I leave for a few hours and my post is buried under two pages!   Cheesy  Ooooh well...Petro, you said that it isn't an issue of whether or not it is a work of righteousness.  I say that it should be!  And, btw, I agree with you.   Wink

Quote
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Titus 3:5

My point is simply, that regardless, it is still a work of righteousness.  According to God's Word - this work is not our salvation, but rather an indication of the salvation we now have as believers.  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2003, 03:57:41 AM »

I leave for a few hours and my post is buried under two pages!   Cheesy  Ooooh well...Petro, you said that it isn't an issue of whether or not it is a work of righteousness.  I say that it should be!  And, btw, I agree with you.   Wink

Quote
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Titus 3:5

My point is simply, that regardless, it is still a work of righteousness.  According to God's Word - this work is not our salvation, but rather an indication of the salvation we now have as believers.  Smiley


Allinall,

I am happy we agree.

I do not see it, as a work of man, that is to say, since I have already stated, that Water Baptism does not accomplish anything towards salvation, it is simply a work of obedience to the Lords Command, to be Baptized (by other men), and is obeyed by them that have already been saved, at the point of Water Baptism, a public declaration of being united to Christ, and since water baptism is (or should be a public matter), it involves confessing Him as Lord and Savior.  

I see the real thing, (work of righteousness) as being accomplished by our Lord, and imputed on our behalf towards our account.  

The problem I have with calling it a work of righteousness of man, is that this is not made clear in scripture, what is clear is that it is a work of righteousness performed by God himself.

I see it in 1 Tim 3:16, at the verse I refernced, which says

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,

Isa 41
10  Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


2 Cor 5, says;
21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


We cannot stand before God, unless with be clothed in the righteousness of God, Jesus is our righteousness, this is what Paul said when

Phil3
7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So summing it up, we can say;  

Faith in the righteousness of God, will produce righteous works by them whom HE has declared righteous...

The problem for me, is then hear come those who are unlearned, and not understanding this they stumble at the word, and begin to believe their righteous works produce something.

Suffice it to say, I believe we Christians should simply present our bodies a living sacriufice, to HIM, which is our reasonable saervice, give Him glory for any works we may do, and not look back but press on to the high calling of God.  

To quote the Apostle.

God Bless,

Petro
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« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2003, 04:18:33 AM »

I agree!  I just simply put the "work" that we claim water baptism to be, and therefore inadequate for salvific grace, as one of those works God works in us.  And I can relate and understand your concern with people who begin to rely upon those works as the work that is sanctifying them.  Again, I define obedience as the door through which God, by the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His word conforms us into the image of His Son.  There are works we perform, or rather commands we obey, that God uses in our lives.  But it is God Who has begun the good work, and will perform it until that day.   Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2003, 05:10:41 AM »

Quote from: Jabez on October 18, 2003, 03:41:54 PM
I dont know where you stand.So i assume your are against water baptism?How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?Please explain?

**As to the topic i feel the answer is no.**
 
 


jabez,


In your mind, is there a difference between what you have written herein;  

"How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?"


which is not found in the Bible and;

**Iam not sure i understand your qeustiom to me?

If you mean is there a differense between water baptism and that of the Holy Spirit,Yes.
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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2003, 11:14:40 AM »

Quote from: Jabez on October 18, 2003, 03:41:54 PM
I dont know where you stand.So i assume your are against water baptism?How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?Please explain?

**As to the topic i feel the answer is no.**
 
 


jabez,


In your mind, is there a difference between what you have written herein;  

"How about Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT?"


which is not found in the Bible and;

**Iam not sure i understand your qeustiom to me?

If you mean is there a differense between water baptism and that of the Holy Spirit,Yes.


jabez,

I simply ask the question, because, those who are of the pentecostal persusasion, always use these words; as thou the Holy Spirit is the one that baptizeth.

The scriptures are clear it is Jesus, who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, I am not sure what is meant by baptism of the Holy Ghost., whoever uses these words, seems to interpret them to mean something, but only the person stating these can define it.

I simply do not see the words as being Biblical.. they appear as words that may be but, clearly they are of mans own concoction..and, what they mean is questionable, for me...

Perhaps this is why, there is division and no agreement can be had between bible believers and them that claim belief in the bible.

In order to speak the same things, we need to use the same words, it would appear to me, note the verse Ollie, put forth;

1 Corinthians 1:10.  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Maybe this is a small point, but if there is no agreement, maybe not..


Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2003, 11:21:46 AM »

I agree!  I just simply put the "work" that we claim water baptism to be, and therefore inadequate for salvific grace, as one of those works God works in us.  And I can relate and understand your concern with people who begin to rely upon those works as the work that is sanctifying them.  Again, I define obedience as the door through which God, by the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His word conforms us into the image of His Son.  There are works we perform, or rather commands we obey, that God uses in our lives.  But it is God Who has begun the good work, and will perform it until that day.   Smiley


Allinall,

Amen,

It is ALL of God, perseverance is that of the Spirit, and can only be grasped by men living in the Spirit who receive and understand the things of the Spirit..of God.


Blessings,

Petro

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« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2003, 11:31:36 AM »

I agree Petro!
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