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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 20435 times)
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« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2003, 12:06:51 PM »

Actually, baptize comes from the Greek baptizo which means "to immerse."  Water has no magical properties, I agree!  But it is with the blood of Christ that we are washed...

"For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins..."
Where did you get the idea that it means to immerse?
To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications. As in:

Mark 7:4  And when they come from the market, except they wash {baptizo}, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized {baptizo} every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The basis of this washing comes from the OT. It is sprinkling.

Ezekiel 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Read these verses carefully and you will see that God is talking about salvation being all His work.
Water, all through the bible represents the Gospel, it is parabolic language.

1 Peter 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Verse 20 is parabolic and historic, it is a picture of man being saved by the gospel.
The Gospel is supported and based on the blood of Christ.
We are washed clean by His blood.
To be washed in the name of Christ means to be washed in the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Cleanseth, washed, baptizo, They are tied together.
Blood of Christ and Gospel, tied together.
Part of the ritual for the priesthood was to be washed, by sprinkling.

Numbers 8:6  Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
Numbers 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Jesus came as the High Priest. It was necessary for Him to have this ritual performed.
So that is why John the Baptist sprinkled water upon Jesus.
As high priest Jesus fulfilled a necessary requirement to pay for our sins.
I believe Jesus never sinned so water baptism can have nothing to do with salvation.
Can someone dying in the desert, with no water, become saved?
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« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2003, 05:03:25 PM »

In Matthew 3:13-17 we read the account of Christís baptism in water. Does the Scriptures tell us that we should follow Him in baptism? No. You will not find this reason anywhere. In this passage, the reason Christ Himself gave for being baptised was that it was fitting for "us" (John and Himself) to "fulfill all righteousness" (verse 15).

if we are to follow Christ in this obligation, should we not also follow Him in His observance of the Law, in His keeping the Jewish feast days, and even in circumcision (again a Jewish legal responsibility)?

Water baptism symbolises our death, burial and resurrection.

The passage many believers will turn to to prove this is Romans 6.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

This is a saving baptism that Paul speaks of in these verses. But arenít we saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)? So, since we are saved apart from our own efforts, many Christians interpret this passage as symbolic in order to preserve the doctrine of water baptism while not denying the truth of Godís saving grace. But the baptism Paul writes of here is a saving baptism, for it is by this baptism that we are baptised into Christís death and raised in His resurrection. This is the same baptism spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.


Brother Love Smiley

Grace & Peace

AAAAAAAAAMEN!

"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.


Brother Love Smiley

Grace & Peace
++++++++++++++++++++++

DITTO Grin
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« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2003, 07:02:40 PM »

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2003, 08:55:34 PM »

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


What more needs to be said?I say nothing!Jesus said it all!
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« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2003, 10:03:31 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I wanted to post this just for thought, not argument.

Could you imagine standing in the very presence of Jesus Christ, physically seeing him before your eyes, talking with Him face to face, being taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and mysteries being revealed to you that contradicted the beliefs of all mankind? Almighty God knew there would be confusion, disbelief, and resistance to the message of the Gospel of God's Grace. In fact, there was confusion and disbelief by those who were in HIS very presence. Many of those closest to HIM were not completely convinced by all of the miracles, signs, and wonders done in their presence. Even the closest were not convinced until Jesus Christ was crucified, died, and arose from the dead. Christ arisen stood again before them, and they finally believed.

Some of the hearers of the Gospel of God's Grace had generations of THE LAW firmly implanted as the ONLY and ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Other hearers of the Gospel of God's Grace were Gentiles, heathen, idol worshipers, and the worst of the worst of mankind. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to preach the Gospel of God's Grace to any audience of the time?

It is still difficult today to preach the Gospel of God's Grace. The core and heart of the Gospel of God's Grace was given to Paul to teach and preach. Under the circumstances of the time, can you imagine how difficult Paul's mission and burden were? Ephesians 3:9 could sum up Paul's purpose. Many sweet Brothers and Sisters in Christ are still struggling to carry on with Paul's mission.

You might think this post is off topic, but it isn't. The contrasts, comparison, and references to the precious portion of Scripture below reveals what the Gospel of God's Grace really is. Many didn't understand it 2,000 years ago, and the same remains true today. Look at Ephesians 3:9 and consider fellowship and unity in THE SPIRIT. Follow the references,  contrasts and comparisons to reveal portions of beautiful TRUTH that are still not understood and believed today.

Prior to THE CROSS, there were many rituals, ceremonies, sacrifices, and duties which were shadows of things to come. There was also prophecy of things to come, and that prophecy was fulfilled. All prophecy in the Holy Bible will be fulfilled at HIS appointed time. Reference "SHADOWS", they are gone when the REAL fills your field of vision. Here are a few things that are REAL and completely fill all vision:

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the CROSS in our stead in payment for our sins.

Jesus Christ arising from the dead and ascending back to heaven as Lord and Saviour for all who will accept HIM as Lord over their lives. Our Saviour LIVES and HIS WORD LIVES.

The blood of Jesus is the perfect sacrifice in payment for the sins of HIS children.

The Holy Spirit is REAL and LIVES in the hearts of HIS Children. His children are baptized by the Holy Spirit, and the sins of the children are forgiven through the precious Blood of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a seal on the heart of HIS children. This seal sets aside HIS children for the PROMISES of ALMIGHTY GOD. The seal is PROOF of the inheritance Promised by God and eternal life with Jesus Christ, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.

The CHURCH which is THE BODY OF CHRIST is REAL. All of God's children are members of HIS BODY, a CHURCH not made with human hands.

The REAL that has replaced Shadows is a beautiful and precious GIFT from ALMIGHTY GOD. Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!
---
Ephesians  3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians  3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians  3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians  3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians  3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians  3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians  3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians  3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians  3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians  3:11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians  3:12  In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
 
Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2003, 10:43:13 PM »

Water baptism was a part of the obedience for the first Jews in acts 2 so in their situation I believe that all believed were baptised, as the word of God called them to obey.

But in other conversions baptisim is not called upon for obedience.

"Whosever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved".

I dont believe Baptism is nessary for salvation, but a saved person would want to be Baptised.

If God calls you to Baptism then just Trust and obey him.

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« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2003, 11:32:09 PM »

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Very good verses:
19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

By teaching the gospel many become saved and they are washed clean of their sins.

Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

When we have saving faith we are washed clean, there is no spot on us.
Thank you for bringing those wonderful verses up.
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« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2003, 02:07:19 AM »

Quote
Where did you get the idea that it means to immerse?
To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications. As in:

Primarily the meaning of the word baptizo is to immerse or to submerge.  The secondary meaning is to wash.  So, we take it by the secondary meaning when the word apolouo could have more readily been used?  "Yes" you say, because of the spiritual implications.  We are baptized to wash our sins away...several problems with that philosophy.  Please read this, as it is lengthy, but explains the position those of us who disagree with you come from.  Smiley

For one, how did one come to God in the Old Testament, and upon what basis?  One came in faith and upon the basis of blood.  The Tabernacle worship, which was in full a picture of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, was at the very heart of this approach.  Take this for example:



When the priest would enter the Tabernacle, the first piece of furniture he came to was the Altar of Burnt Offering (A).  In order for the priest to come to God, the picture was set that it cost blood.  To come to God, one must come with blood.  Jesus - "I am the way..."

From there he would progress to the Bronze Basin (B).  Here the priest would wash.  To remove his sin?  As a picture of the removal of his sin?  No!  That was taken care of upon the approach at the altar.  This was for a ceremonial cleansing.  Note: He never would have gotten here had he not had the blood.  There is no cleansing without the blood...

Quote
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:5

From there, he would enter the Holy Place.  He would eat from the Table of Shewbread (C).  Jesus - "I am the Bread of Life..."  To his left he would see the golden lampstand (D).  Jesus - "I am the Light of the world..."  and directly in front of him would be the Altar of Incense (E).  Beyond there, no normal priest could go!  Only the high priest.  Jesus - "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.   Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."  Only the high priest of the Old Covenant could enter there - now we, by the blood of God's sacrificial Lamb may boldly enter in.

From there, the high priest would enter and find two pieces of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant (F), and the Mercy Seat (G) which sat on top of the ark.  This is often forgotten, but had a very important purpose.  When the priest entered into the Holy of Holies, or Most Holy Place, he did so with a blood offering for the sins of the people.  He would take hissop, and splash the blood upon that seat.  Why?  Inside the ark were the jar of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the commandments God Himself had written on the stone tablets.  Keep in mind, that as the priest is performing this duty, the Shekinah glory of God would have been hovering over this very Mercy Seat!  Nice picture isn't it?  God was looking down past the mercy seat to see what?  His Law.  The Law that man has disobeyed.  Why then the blood?  Don't miss this!  Because He would see a broken law yes, but would see the blood interposed.  "Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins."  

Here's the problem - that sacrifice, though acceptable to God, had to be performed each year to cover that sin.  Until...

Quote
 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
   Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
   Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

   And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
   But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
   From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
   For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
   And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
   Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 10:1-18

For a second reason, Christ came, died, shed His precious blood to take away my sin - and I gain salvation by being baptized?  If this is true, then why, oh why the cross?  This defies logic.  This defies the very picture God Himself painted for man from the very beginning with Adam, Eve, and the animals whose blood He shed to cover their sin.

When we put stock in misunderstood passages, we run the great risk of placing our eternity on our actions.  Must we be baptized to be saved?  Absolutely not.  If so, then God wasted His time by teaching His people, and His children what the price of our salvation was, when all He had to do was dunk, sprinkle, spritz, or splash people.

In Christ,

Kevin

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« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2003, 04:52:56 AM »

BEP,

Good Word, I doubt this you have written, will be understood by those who teach water baptism, in order to understand doctrine, one muist be weaned off of milk, in order to begin feeding on solid food. And what you have shared, requires teeth to chew on.

Mat 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I already forgot, who put forth this scripture as though to prove something; about "The baptism of the Holy Spirit."  

It is a weak attempt at something, since without the preceding words it means absolutely nothing.

"....Baptizing them in the name of the ..........................,........,.. Holy Ghost.

By deleting these words one can prove nothing.

I wonder if the following passages of scripture perhaps will prick hearts;

Acts 19
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

John's Water Baptism, did nothing for these men is as much as being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and according to verse 2, they believed,

where they in the body of Christ??  NO..

Yet They, had been water baptized for remission of sin and believed.   And they had not received the Holy Spirit.  

And it wasn't until Paul baptized them by laying his hands upon them, they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, and they prophecied and spoke in tongues, according to verses;

6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7  And all the men were about twelve.

There is no evidence the Apostles were ever water baptized again, after being baptized by John.

Phillip at Acts 8, at a city in Samaria, baptized many who believed, they did not received the Holy Ghost, until Peter and John, were sent to them, and they prayed and they received the Holy Ghost, and when they(Peter and John) laid hands on them, no doubt Baptizing them in the names of Christ Jesus, it wasn't until this that,  the Holy Spirit came upon them. (v 17)

Cornelius, when Peter recounts the story the first time at Judaea, He plainly states;

Acts 11
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said;

 John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus's own words confirm, that it is the baptism with the Holy Ghost, which seals the believer's gift of the Eternal Life into the Body of Christ, not water baptism is required.

The Baptism, Jesus spoke of at Mat 16:16 says nothing of water, it is assumed, by men who strive to save themselves, and seek water, becuase the focus of the carnal mind is on an outward show as proof of salvation, and it allows the flesh to play a part in the process, so they can say when asked, are you saved?  their answer;  Yes I have been baptized in water.

When Jesus spoke of; being baptized with the Baptism I am baptized with"[color]

He spoke of His own Baptism (annointing) with the Holy Ghost. ( Acts 10:38)

Clearly the teaching is unskillfull use of  and stumbling at the word God.  Unable to move on to solid food, always going back to

"the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

Those who are saved are called unto a higher calling, and to ;

"leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2003, 04:59:32 AM »

Good message Petro

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« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2003, 05:44:04 AM »

A Baptist man lived in a traditional Catholic
neighborhood. Every Friday, the Catholics were
driven crazy because, while they were morosely eating
fish, the Baptist was outside barbecuing steaks.
The Catholics worked on the Baptist, attempting to
convert him to Catholicism. Finally, after much
pleading and some threats, the Catholics succeeded.
They took the Baptist to a priest who sprinkled
Holy Water on the man while saying, "Born a Baptist,
Raised a Baptist, Now a Catholic!"
The Catholics were ecstatic but this was short-lived
for, the next Friday evening, the scent of barbecue
once again drifted through the neighborhood.
The Catholics all rushed to the ex-Baptist's house
to remind him of his new diet.
They found him standing over the cooking steaks,
sprinkling water on the meat and saying, "Born a
cow, Raised a cow, Now a fish!"


 Smiley

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« Reply #116 on: October 23, 2003, 12:04:36 PM »

Quote
posted by Petro
Phillip at Acts 8, at a city in Samaria, baptized many who believed, they did not received the Holy Ghost, until Peter and John, were sent to them, and they prayed and they received the Holy Ghost, and when they(Peter and John) laid hands on them, no doubt Baptizing them in the names of Christ Jesus, it wasn't until this that,  the Holy Spirit came upon them. (v 17)

Please refer to Acts 8

15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Again, note verse 16, these had been baptized in the name of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon them, and yet the Holy Spirit, had been falling on all others who had believed being added to the church.

The words of Jesus at;

Acts 11
16  .....John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Are written, for all who believe the scriptures and the faith of Jesus who has obtained the gift of eternal life, and this life is in the the Baptism He is Batized with and will Baptize any who come to Him by FAITH.

How is it professing christians, believe the doctrine taught by the catholic church, they  believe and teach, the doctrine of baptism is to baptize all infants who do not believeat all, very few adults ever come to faith while being members of this instituiton , but many do when they leave it, yet, they all claim to believe the promises of God.

Consider that catholics support pro abortion politicians, yet when one speaks to catholics they all say they do not believe
in a womans right to chose.

The doctrine of water baptism is misunderstood, because these christians, would rather have other men teach them doctrine than, allowing the Holy Spirit, to teach and lead then in the teach of GODS Word.

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #117 on: October 23, 2003, 02:37:41 PM »

We are not "The Church In The Wilderness" (Acts 7:38) covered by animal blood. (Leviticus 9:3) Baptized by water, (Leviticus 1:13) justified by self righteousness. (Deuteronomy 6:25) Nor "The Church In Jerusalem" Acts 8:1) saved by law, (Matthew 19:17) baptized in water, (Matthew 3:6) self justified by works (James 2:14)

 
 
 
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« Reply #118 on: October 23, 2003, 02:47:08 PM »

Before religion I was hungry, now I'm fed up.




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« Reply #119 on: October 23, 2003, 06:20:04 PM »

It seems the reason that those disiples that were Baptied by John, had not recieved the Holy Spirit is , Because John was only Baptising in water.

Jesus the one who came after John as John said ,  John 1:33 "the same is he that Baptised in the Holy Ghost."

There is no second Baptism in the Spirit for a Christian.But fillings yes.Our Fellowship with the Lord and Blessings of the Holy spirit are Conditional.As we obey Him.But once we are saved , we are sealed until the day of redemption.We need only to trust and Obey as there is no other way to be Happy in Jesus, but to trust and Obey.   Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
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psalm 62:8  Trust in Him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before Him, God is a refuge for us.
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