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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 20460 times)
asaph
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« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2003, 12:11:35 PM »

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  
 

Note that Verse 21 begins with the words the like figure meaning water baptism is the shadow,of the reral baptism administered by Jesus, and same verse  above, clearly explains, that physical washing (water baptism) is nothing but  the answer of a good conscience toward God, IS.

Petro,
I do not see what your argument is. As I said, baptism does not regenerate us. It is the answer that we give in response to regeneration. I was regenerated by faith my response was baptism.  

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Now if I am regenerated by God through faith what is my response?
The answer is baptism. My response is also carried out by faith. I am baptized by faith. Remember the gospel is from faith to faith.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Some would say that there are two gospels, one for the Jews and the other for the gentiles. I disagree. We all must be baptized in obedience to the faith. Look at the testimony of scripture.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Act 8:5  Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The above verses are sufficient to prove that baptism in water is neccessary for Jewish, Samaritan, and Gentile believers.

asaph

 



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« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2003, 01:16:41 PM »

QUOTE:asaph

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  


The eight souls that got saved DID NOT GET WET Grin

All 8 Of Them On The Ark Grin


Grace & Peace

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« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2003, 02:54:38 PM »

I agree!  I just simply put the "work" that we claim water baptism to be, and therefore inadequate for salvific grace, as one of those works God works in us.  And I can relate and understand your concern with people who begin to rely upon those works as the work that is sanctifying them.  Again, I define obedience as the door through which God, by the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His word conforms us into the image of His Son.  There are works we perform, or rather commands we obey, that God uses in our lives.  But it is God Who has begun the good work, and will perform it until that day.   Smiley
Where does it say baptism is a work?
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asaph
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« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2003, 05:21:30 PM »

QUOTE:asaph

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  


The eight souls that got saved DID NOT GET WET Grin

All 8 Of Them On The Ark Grin


Grace & Peace



Huh? The Israelites were baptized into the Red Sea and did not get wet either, but they were baptized. The significance is passing through water which signifies death, and crossing over to the other side which signifies resurrection. If you are not baptized you are clearly disobeying the Lord's command. That's your business. But when you attempt to persuade others to disobey then it becomes my business.

1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Both the flood and the Red sea crossing baptisms.

If we neglect to do certain commands we come under judgement. Even not discerning the Lords body in communion will bring one under judgement.

1Co 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Why bring unneccessary chastening upon yourself?

Peter commanded Cornelius and family to be baptized, how are you exempt?

asaph

 

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« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2003, 05:49:44 PM »

QUOTE A4C: The eight souls that got saved DID NOT GET WET - All 8 Of Them On The Ark Grin

QUOTE asaph:
 The Israelites were baptized into the Red Sea and did not get wet either.

A4C, and thats me I have the One Baptism its a Dry one Grin

Grace & Peace

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« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2003, 06:52:37 PM »

1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  
 

Note that Verse 21 begins with the words the like figure meaning water baptism is the shadow,of the reral baptism administered by Jesus, and same verse  above, clearly explains, that physical washing (water baptism) is nothing but  the answer of a good conscience toward God, IS.

Petro,
I do not see what your argument is. As I said, baptism does not regenerate us. It is the answer that we give in response to regeneration. I was regenerated by faith my response was baptism.  

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Now if I am regenerated by God through faith what is my response?
The answer is baptism. My response is also carried out by faith. I am baptized by faith. Remember the gospel is from faith to faith.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Some would say that there are two gospels, one for the Jews and the other for the gentiles. I disagree. We all must be baptized in obedience to the faith. Look at the testimony of scripture.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

asaph,

I disgaree with you totally, this is the other Gospel you believe and promote.

You jump to conclusions, at the git go.

I called your attention to 1 Pet 1:22,

Purifcation (how do you define purification?) of the soul comes from obeying the truth according to Peter.

Baptism according to the verse you put forth at Acts 2:38. that famous verse, everyone who places there finger on their salvation on water baptism, is preceded  by repentance, not before.

God commanded the Apostles to baptize them who believed the Gospel, no one can believe unless it is given them to believe, remember this is the verse which upset you,

You started ranting that there was nothing you could DO to save yourself in that last thread you posted before you took your hiatus.  

You want to put your two mites into salvation.

God commands everyone every where to repent, according to Paul at Acts 17:30, mans response is to repent;  [b[this is the answer of a good conscience towards God[/b], it is at this point God gives men Faith to believe in the one they could never believe in without supernatural intervention.

If God commands man to repent, He expects every man everywhere to do exactly that; not go and baptize himself in water.

There are plenty of people running around that have been baptized in water and do not believe the Gospel.

Quote
Act 8:5  Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The above verses are sufficient to prove that baptism in water is neccessary for Jewish, Samaritan, and Gentile believers.

asaph  
Quote


asaph,

You read the same verses I do, and it is clear the believed, before they were baptized with water, they believed because they had received Faith to believe, and were sealed by the Spirit of Promise.

They all believed first, then they were baptized in water; they believed because they had been given faith to believe, signifying, that they had received the Holy Spirit.

Note the testimony of Paul at the first council at Jerusalem;

Acts 15
6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness,
giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

This is Peters testimony to all the Apostles and Elders, now take note, how it happened;

Acts 10
34  Then Peter opened his mouth,......................
44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can you,stand there and argue, against scripture, and say that it is water baptism which caused them to receive the Hoily Ghost,...Honestly??

If this is where it ended, you might be able to get away with it, but note the next two verses;

46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


It is plain  from these verse, Cornelius and his household already had received the Holy Ghost, prior to water baptism.

Ephesians chapt. 1, makes it clear men are saved at verses 11-14, and when God gives them Faith to believe the Gospel  are imdeaitely sealed by the Holy Spirit, which the earnest of our inheritance, until He returns to claim the purchased possession.

There is no need to discuss this matter with you further, as
you simply want to believe and teach what you presume
 to be truth, inspite of what the Word of God says.

Blessings,

Petro






 




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« Reply #81 on: October 20, 2003, 08:16:31 PM »

"Baptism for the Remission of Sins"

Jarrod Jacobs
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This subject is perhaps the most argued, the most denied, and the most misunderstood among people who say they believe in God, in Christ, and say they are saved. I myself have debated this subject twice between November of 1998 and March of 1999. I affirmed that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins and my opponent denied this. Why is this such a controversial topic? Why such division on this subject when the New Testament is filled with references concerning the necessity of baptism?


Defining “Baptism”

Baptism, as the word is used in the Bible, is “consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence .... to dip” (Vine’s Amplified Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 62). Mr. Thayer defines baptism as, “to immerge, submerge .... to overwhelm, to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, p. 94). Therefore, baptism itself is an immersion in something. The context tells us the element. This will be made clear in our next point.


There Are Many “Baptisms” Mentioned In The New Testament.

This needs to be understood, or we cannot continue. Yes, there are several “baptisms” mentioned in the New Testament. Therefore, we need to know which one is valid today in order to determine whether or not it is “for the remission of sins.”


The New Testament tells us that there was the baptism of Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). This occurred when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground, and the walls of water and the cloud overhead covered them (Exodus 14:16). They were immersed (see def.) in the walls of water and the cloud over them. This cannot be duplicated today, so we are not talking about this baptism as the baptism for remission of sins.


Another baptism we read about in the New Testament is John’s baptism (Matthew 3:7). John’s baptism was the “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). It was a baptism in water (Mark 1:5; John 3:23). John baptized many, including Jesus (Matthew 3:15-17; Mark 1:5; Luke 3:7). However, it was limited in time. Paul discusses John fulfilling “his course” (Acts 13:25). John’s baptism was not valid after the Lord’s death, burial, and resurrection. In the book of Acts, we find Apollos teaching John’s baptism to the Jews in Ephesus. Upon their hearing this, Aquila and Priscilla “expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly” (Acts 18:25-26). When Paul reached Ephesus, he found 12 men that needed to be baptized “in the name of Christ,” having already submitted to “John’s baptism” (Acts 19:3-5). Therefore, the baptism we are considering in this article is not John’s baptism. Mr. W.E. Vine makes a good point about this in his New Testament word study as well (p. 63).


Consider also the baptism of suffering that the Lord endured. This is found in Matthew 20:20-23; Mark 10:37-40; and Luke 12:50. Here we see a baptism (overwhelming) of suffering which the Lord would shortly endure, and the apostles would endure later. This is an example of the word “baptism” being used, but not having a connection with water.


We read of another baptism that was promised to the apostles. This was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come upon them and would baptize (immerse, overwhelm) them (Acts 1:5, Cool. This happened in Acts 2:1-5. Therefore, this is not applicable today for three reasons. One, the Holy Spirit was promised to the apostles, not to anyone today (John 16:7-13). Two, Holy Spirit baptism was a promise to certain individuals, and never a command that all must obey (i.e., There is no command stating that one must be baptized of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved.). Three, the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not take away sins.


A fifth mention of baptism is found in such places as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. This is baptism in water for the remission of sins. It is the baptism to which all the converts in the book of Acts submitted without exception. It is the one which Peter said “saves us” (1 Peter 3:21). It is the one that Paul says puts us in Christ (Galatians 3:27).


The baptism of fire is also mentioned in the New Testament. We read of this in Matthew 3:11-12, and Luke 3:16-17. Many assume Jesus was speaking of “Holy Ghost-fire baptism.” This is not true! John spoke of two separate things when he discussed Jesus baptizing those “with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” We know this because the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit as was mentioned above. However, they were not baptized with fire! The baptism of fire will come to those who died in their sins. Jesus spoke of this in Mark 9:43-48. Paul also spoke of this, and said that there would be a day when Christ would come, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Notice that the one to administer this baptism will be “the Lord Jesus Christ” (v. 7). He will punish those who do not obey Him. This will be an immersion, pictured as being cast into a “lake of fire” (Revelation 21:Cool. Friends, there will be no “treading” on this lake!
Based on the above descriptions, we know that not all are in effect today. The first four mentioned have served their purpose and now belong to the past. The last baptism is reserved for the future for those who die in their sins. Therefore, the only one that is in effect today is the baptism mentioned by Jesus and the apostles for the remission of sins. This makes sense, for Paul said there is “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:4). This baptism for the remission of sins is the one to which we must submit if we wish to be saved.


What The New Testament Says

Since we know that there is only one baptism in effect today (Ephesians 4:4), let us also go to the New Testament to determine its purpose. It only makes sense that if we are going to talk about what baptism does or does not do, then we need to consider the New Testament passages that deal with baptism.

Jesus said that baptism was necessary for salvation (Mark 16:15-16). As did Peter (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21) and Ananias (Acts 22:16).

The New Testament teaches that baptism stands between the sinner and salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21). It stands between the sinner and the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism stands between the sinner and washing sins away (Acts 22:16). It stands between the sinner and wearing the name “Christian” (1 Corinthians 1:13; Acts 11:26). Baptism stands between the sinner and life (Galatians 3:26-27). (Before baptism, one is dead spiritually, Ephesians 2:1, 12). It stands between the sinner and spiritual freedom (Romans 6:16-18).

The New Testament reveals that baptism is not a sprinkling or pouring of water on someone, but an immersion in water, just as the definitions showed us. We see this in our Lord’s baptism (Matthew 3:16), in the reason John chose to settle in “Aenon near to Salim” (John 3:23), and in the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:38). Baptism is not for babies, but for those who are able to hear the word of God (Acts 2:22; Mark 16:15), believe that word (Romans 10:17), repent of their sins (Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3); and confess their faith in Christ (Matthew 10:32-33; Romans 10:10). When one does these things, he is ready to be baptized for the remission of sins. The New Testament declares, and I think we have made it clear already in this article, that baptism is not done to show the world that a person is saved, but is done in order to save a person (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21).

Remember dear readers, if we are going to talk about this, or any other Bible subject, we must find out what the Bible says about the subject. It is not honest to look at passages that do not even mention the word “baptism” and try to deduce the purpose of baptism from those passages. Let us take a careful look at what the Bible says about this subject in order to make an intelligent decision."

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm


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« Reply #82 on: October 20, 2003, 08:17:30 PM »

CONTINUED:
"What Role Does Faith Play In Salvation?

Many, in an effort to downplay the role of baptism will wish to talk about faith. Yes, faith plays a very important role in man’s salvation, but it is no more important than baptism. In like manner, baptism plays a very important role, but it is no more important than faith, than repentance, and the confession of one’s faith in Christ! They are all equal steps going the same direction -- toward salvation! To leave off one or more of these steps is to wreak havoc with the Scriptures, to “twist them to your own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

What role does faith play in man’s salvation? We know that one will never please God without faith (Hebrews 11:6). And, without faith, one will die in his sins (John 8:24). At the same time, faith and obedience are joined together, just as the body and spirit are joined together. James said, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Paul put it this way: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:13-17). Notice please that one must “call upon the name of the Lord” in order to be saved (Romans 10:13; Acts 2:21). How is this done? Read on. It requires a preacher to preach the gospel in order that people might “hear” and “call.” (v. 14-15). Now, notice carefully verse 16. How do we know who it is that has called upon the name of the Lord? Did they just say one day, “Lord, save me?” Did they say some type of “sinner’s prayer”? Did they lay their hands on a TV, a radio, etc.? “But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?” Notice that these people had to OBEY something! Here, we find faith and obedience joined together, just as the body and spirit! They have not all obeyed, for Isaiah said who has believed! When one truly believes the Lord, they will do what God has told them to do. How does one call upon the name of the Lord? Listen to what Ananias told Paul: “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). After having heard the truth, believed, and repented, Paul was told to arise and be baptized in order to wash away his sins. In doing so, he was calling on the name of the Lord! Peter said a similar thing in Acts 2:21. In the context of Acts 2, he told the people to hear (v. 22), believe (v. 36), repent and be baptized (v. 38). Yes, friends, faith plays an important role in man’s salvation, for without faith one cannot be saved. It is faith which motivates man to do what God said to do and be saved. If one does not believe, he will not obey, and as a result, does not love the Lord (John 14:15, 23-24). Do you love the Lord, dear reader? If so, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Would you repent of your sins, and confess your faith in Jesus as the Son of God, having been put to death, but resurrecting on the third day, never to die again (Acts 13:34)? Have you been baptized for the remission of sins? This is what it takes.


Baptism And The Blood Of Christ

Sometimes, when speaking of baptism, some will say we are not relying on the blood of Christ. Not so! The New Testament makes it clear that the blood of Christ saves us, just as baptism saves us. As Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper, He said, “this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice that He said His blood was shed “for” or, in order to remit sins. No one denies this. In Acts 2:38, Peter told the people gathered in Jerusalem to, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Notice that whatever Christ’s blood is “for,” so also baptism is “for”!

The Lord Jesus shed this blood in His death (John 19:33-34). We, when we are buried in the watery grave of baptism, are “baptized into his death” (Romans 6:3), or “buried with him by baptism into death” (Romans 6:4). It is when we are buried in baptism that we are recipients of the cleansing effects of the blood. Having died to our old sins, been buried in the waters of baptism, and raised to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4), we are free from our sin. We “have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine” and are now “free from sin” (Romans 6:17-18). Therefore, to speak of baptism and its necessity takes nothing away from the blood of Christ. Both the blood of Christ and baptism are necessary for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38). The shedding of His blood is what Christ did to bring about man’s salvation. Being baptized for the remission of sins is what man does in order to be the recipient of salvation.


Conclusion

Put in simple terms, in order to be converted to the Lord, it requires a change in the heart of a man, a change in his lifestyle, and a change in relationship. When this happens, man is converted to the Lord. Now, faith in God is what changes a man’s heart (Hebrews 11:6; Romans 10:17; John 8:24). This change of disbelief to belief in the eternal Creator, and our savior. Repentance is what changes a man’s lifestyle. It is in repentance (a change of mind that results in a change of life) that man decides he will change his ways, turn from his sinful past to live for Christ (Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38). Perhaps the clearest demonstration of repentance is seen in Matthew 21:28-31. There, Christ says, “But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” Finally, baptism is what changes the relationship of man from being outside of Christ to being in Christ (Galatians 3:27). One is not “in Christ” until he has been baptized for the remission of sins. Not until we “obey from the heart that form of doctrine” seen in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, and rise to “walk in newness of life” can it be said that our relationship with God has changed (Romans 6:17-18, 3-4). Not until this occurs are we considered by God to be “walking in the light.”

Truly, baptism for the remission of sins is one of the most controversial subjects. The reason for this is because men do not want to do it! When we get our hearts right, we will want to do all that God has said. When we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 23-24). Dear reader, please consider your soul, and how important it is (Matthew 16:26)! Christ died for you (Matthew 20:28). Do not turn your back on Him, but do what is right by becoming His child today and living for Him all the days of your life (Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15)"


.http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm



« Last Edit: October 20, 2003, 08:22:09 PM by ollie » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: October 20, 2003, 08:43:46 PM »

"Jesus Christ Commanded Baptism.


 
Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16: Christ specifically commanded His apostles to go into the world, preach the gospel, and baptize.  Christ specifically stated that "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." Many will probably argue that the second half of this statement somehow contradicts or negates the first, and thus accuse Christ of lying.  But the simple fact is that Christ commanded baptism, and was Himself baptized.

Christ commanded baptism, and He stated that belief plus baptism equals baptism.  Many argue that baptism is not necessary. Who is right?  Christ, or them?"

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm

 
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« Reply #84 on: October 20, 2003, 09:06:54 PM »

For Thought Only:

Law -

Rituals
Ceremonies
Sacrifices
The Curse of Sin and Death
The Implements and Symbolism of The Law
Shadows of Things To Come
Prophesy of Things To Come

Grace -

The Gospel of God's Grace
A Mystery Not Known to Men of Other Ages
God's Love and Grace Manifested Through HIS Son
Jesus Christ Walks as a Man - Spotless, Pure, Holy
Jesus Christ Dies on the Cross in our stead
This is REAL - not symbolism
Man can accept Jesus Christ as personal LORD & SAVIOUR
The BLOOD of JESUS is payment for sin
The HOLY SPIRIT is revealed and given to HIS Children
Baptism by the Holy Spirit
Indwelt by the Holy Spirit
Sealed by the Holy Spirit
Fellowship (Communion) Directly & Personally with Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the perfect SACRIFICE once and for all
Confession of sin to Jesus Christ, our LORD & SAVIOUR
Forgiveness of sin by the shed BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST
Cleansing by the HOLY BLOOD OF JESUS
Righteousness IMPUTED to HIS Children through HIS BLOOD

--------

I just wanted to post these few thoughts. One can also place LIVING WATER into the thoughts. I'm of the opinion that man can't add anything to the perfect SACRIFICE OF JESUS. I'm of the opinion that I should yield myself to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, not mine. I'm of the opinion that I don't need symbolism because I have the REAL living in my heart. I'm of the opinion that an attempt to add to the CROSS is saying the CROSS wasn't sufficient and the SACRIFICE wasn't sufficient.

I didn't post this for argument. I'm also of the opinion that a child of God is grateful and changed forever in receiving the GIFT from ALMIGHTY GOD, JESUS CHRIST AS PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOUR. Good works are done in love and appreciation, not for Salvation or maintenance of Salvation. Good works are done by HIS children because they give joy and fulfillment in doing HIS Work. Walking in THE SPIRIT, studying HIS WORD, seeking HIS Will, and yielding to HIS Will increase joy, fulfillment, peace, and assurance in FAITH.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 
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« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2003, 12:19:18 AM »

Quote
Posted by: ollie  Posted on: October 20, 2003, 02:54:38 PM  
Quote from: Allinall on October 19, 2003, 04:18:33 AM
I agree!  I just simply put the "work" that we claim water baptism to be, and therefore inadequate for salvific grace, as one of those works God works in us.  And I can relate and understand your concern with people who begin to rely upon those works as the work that is sanctifying them.  Again, I define obedience as the door through which God, by the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His word conforms us into the image of His Son.  There are works we perform, or rather commands we obey, that God uses in our lives.  But it is God Who has begun the good work, and will perform it until that day.  
 
 
Where does it say baptism is a work?  

The physical act of water baptism is man employed, enacted, and empowered.  It, I believe, is done in obedience to the Lord and Savior out of a newly regenerate heart - but is, nonetheless, man's work.  When I was baptized in the water of my church's baptistry, it was because I chose to obey.  It was done when my pastor dunked me.  Smiley  There was no salvific favor to it, rather, was in response to the salvific grace I'd already received.  It was a work.  A very God commanded, very righteous work, but a work nonetheless.  The God-wrought baptism I experienced when I came to Christ.
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« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2003, 02:03:14 AM »

Ollie,

Here is an article written in the magazine who also, published Jarrod's article..

It is from the Chrurch of Christ, whether it be from the church which is an off shoot of Mormonism, I cannot say, since they do not publish their doctrinal statement.

I would be interested in seeing it.

But apparently this is what this organization believes, with regard to how man is saved by faith.

Just reading into the second paragraph I see, problems, which I will try to address;

http://watchmanmag.com/0302/030216.htm

Article written in the magazine "Watchman"  

by Glen Melton  entitled  Saved by Faith

A Misconception Of When Faith Saves

Quote
The Bible teaches that faith saves. The religious world is divided over when faith saves. Some believe faith saves the alien sinner from all past sins (and some would say all future sins) the moment he believes, without any further acts of obedience. Others believe the sinner's faith must lead him to further acts of obedience before he is saved from his alien sins.
Does the Bible teach that an alien sinner is saved from all past sins the moment he believes? No!! (1) Jesus gave power "...to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:11,12). The believer has power to become a son of God. The moment an alien sinner becomes a believer he is not yet a son of God. Can you imagine a saved person who is not a son of God, not in the family of God? (2) In Acts 2:36-38, believers were told to "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...." Here were believers still in their sins. (3) Saul of Tarsus was a believer on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:6). When Ananias came to him he was still a sinner. A believer in Christ still a sinner? Yes! Ananias said to him, "...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Before anyone can say Paul was still in his sin, one has to address several things;

1. Paul was a pharisee, and according to scripture no pharisee allowed himself to be baptized with Johns baptism (Luke 7:30). In order for Paul to be accepted into the church, he had to publicly be baptized with the baptism for the remission of sins. He did it because it was commanded of him by Jesus.

2. All those who had received Johns baptism were still in unbelief, none that is NONE believed until after Jesus arose form the grave, even the Apostles, were in unbelief. (Mk 16:14, Jhn 2:22, Jhn 12:37,  How is it that these, who had already been baptized in wtaer for the "remission of sin" were still in unbelief, and this Glen here, claims, water baptism washes away sin.

Remember this verse;  ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23


3. Jesus when he spoke to his discipels, who had been baptized in water, spoke to them of another baptism, which they would be baptized with; (Mat 20:22-23)

4. Dr. Luke who wrote the inspired account of  the conversion of Paul, no doubt did it from Paul's own words and at Acts 9:1-18 he gives the full account of the matter, Jesus words:

5  I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6  ........... Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And to Annias, Jesus said;
10  ....Annaias.......
11  .....Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
15  ...... Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

From these verses, one can see, the Holy Ghost was already drawing Paul to Christ, since we read in verse 17 and 18, that Saul who was blind received his sight and received the Holy Ghost, before he was baptized in water, just as Cornelius, and The Ethiopian Eunuch, the Roman Jailer, those on the day of pentecost and  those of Samaria at Acts 8:12, all believed and were baptized with water.

Those who believe and asre baptized (with the Holy Ghost) shall be saved, and those who believeth not shall be damned. Mk 16:16

As I have pointed out before Peter makes this point very clear, that Cornelius received the Holy Ghost , before he and his household were baptized, & at Acts 22 , Paul is recounting this for the jews at Jerusalem, makes it a point to tell the Jews he received his sight when a devout man called Annias put his hands on him, and he received his sight that very hour, and then was batized in water, ,notice the sequence.

It is presumpteous to say, Paul was still in his sins  before he was baptized in water, according to these passages Paul received his sight when he sealed with the Holy Spirit, this was his baptism with the Spirit, since the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not something that is seeing with the eye, according to what Jesus said to Nicodemus,
 
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jhn 3:Cool, and water baptism is; if this is so, then water baptism cannot be the one baptism spoken of by the Apostle.

Everyone that is washed by the water of the Word of God, is born again (regenerated and renewed [made new] by the Holy Ghost). Titus 3:5
 
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Cont.......................'d

« Last Edit: October 21, 2003, 02:51:25 AM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2003, 02:09:13 AM »

Mr Glen, goes to say;

Quote
(4) If salvation comes at the point of faith, then the demons are saved. "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19). The devils believed Jesus was the Son of God for they confessed Him to be the Son of God (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34). Were the devils saved? No.

I have heard this nonsense before. Devils being saved...

Devils and demons are nothing more than fallen angels, spirit beings.

The scriptures tell us that they (Angels) all desire to look into these things (what things??;

1 Pet 1
11  .......what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.)
12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This is pure bellicose rhetoric,  if these men new their bible they wouldn't even put foirth suchg an argument.

It is useless, to continue, since I can see these people here. just want advance their own teachings, it is clear they need to do work on there own gospel, if they desire to teach the truth of this matter..

So, Ollie, if this church is off on this point "Saved by Faith", they must be off on "water baptism"
and the Jarrod Jacobs article is of no value in trying to reconcile this matter, herein.

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2003, 02:14:16 AM »

Quote
The God-wrought baptism I experienced when I came to Christ.

Slightly incomplete thought here.  Let me complete it...

The God-wrought baptism I experienced when I came to Christ was the baptism into the body of Christ...
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« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2003, 02:19:55 AM »

Quote
author ollie as reply #81
"Baptism for the Remission of Sins"

Jarrod Jacobs
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We read of another baptism that was promised to the apostles. This was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come upon them and would baptize (immerse, overwhelm) them (Acts 1:5, Cool. This happened in Acts 2:1-5. Therefore, this is not applicable today for three reasons. One, the Holy Spirit was promised to the apostles, not to anyone today (John 16:7-13). Two, Holy Spirit baptism was a promise to certain individuals, and never a command that all must obey (i.e., There is no command stating that one must be baptized of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved.). Three, the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not take away sins.




http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm





Ollie,

Please look at the second sentence of the seventh paragraph, and tell me what is;

...the baptism of the Holy Spirit, these words do not appear anywhere in scripture.

The bile speaks of a baptism with the Holy Ghost, and it is Jesus who baptizes.

What is your understanding of what this is??

If you answered me before, I don't believe I saw your post..

Thanks,

An Blessings to you,

Petro
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