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| | |-+  Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.
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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 20465 times)
Petro
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« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2003, 02:38:23 AM »

"Jesus Christ Commanded Baptism.


 
Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16: Christ specifically commanded His apostles to go into the world, preach the gospel, and baptize.  Christ specifically stated that "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." Many will probably argue that the second half of this statement somehow contradicts or negates the first, and thus accuse Christ of lying.  But the simple fact is that Christ commanded baptism, and was Himself baptized.

Christ commanded baptism, and He stated that belief plus baptism equals baptism.  Many argue that baptism is not necessary. Who is right?  Christ, or them?"

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0204indx.htm

 

If there is only one baptism, and there are two baptism referenced in scripture;
 
1 of water

and 2 with Holy Spirit.

Which one might Jesus be speaking of??

Could it be the external one, is for public confession of Him before men?? A shadow of the internal wahing with the Word of God.

We are commanded to repent, also.

And we read that He grants repentance;

2 Tim 2
25  ....................if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Men are commanded to believe, and man can't unless God grants that, also.

The realization is man is unable to do anything which God commands, why??

Because men are dead in sin and tresspass.

So men that want to contribute to their salvation have re-invented the significance of water baptism, to make themselves feel good, about themselves.

Unforutnately, sinners need to come to this conclusion, in order to see the light.

We are helpless, unable to do anything about our condition, and this is what is needed to be confessed;

He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.  Psa 40:2

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2003, 02:56:51 AM »

By the way, I want to confess, I was baptized, twice;

Once as an infant, in the Roman Catholic church, whicgh means nothing to me.

And once when I came to Faith in Christ.

About a month or two later, I know and remember very well when I was saved, but can't really remembver when I was dunked in water.

And yes, I counted it as of obedience to the Lords command.


Petro
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« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2003, 04:19:21 AM »

Dear all, what a turn-out!  I have a lot on my plate but everyone was considerate of me.  Now, in many difficult passages, it is easy to assume that there are no explinations but often, it is the context that explains what the verse is really saying:

Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

       "For."  Now this word can mean in-order-to, but it can also mean, "because of".  I can say that since vs 38 was a response to vs 37:

37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

       Pricked...they were convicted weren't they?  They believed Peter's message.  Peter then say, "repent and be baptised" because their sins have already been forgiven (Matthew 3:11 In order for them to repent?  Or is it because of their repentance?  Both Acts 2 and Matthew 3 used the same word, "for").  

Acts 22:16.  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

       I guess it can imply that sins can be washed but pay attention to the last part:

...Calling on the name of the Lord

       If one by simple obedience to bath to wash sins because its God's command, why does one need to call in His name?  This is not the same as when Jesus said to the lame, "Pick up your mat and walk" because if it is an order, it will happen.  In this case, if it were so that by the spirit of obedience, a believer washes his sins by baptism, he wouldn't need to call out to god because he is commanded to by God.  Therefore, there is a strong implication that this is spiritual than physical.  Paul is commanded to wash his sins awaym BY calling on His name.

Mark 16:16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

       But He that believeth not shall be damned...notice it didn't say He that believeth not and not baptised...  If baptism was so important, why didn't Jesus say it again?  Can it be implied one needs to be baptized?  No, because if it were that important, He would trouble himself to sway it again just like Jesus saying "Verily Verily, KJV" or "Truly Truly NASB"

       Heidi - in John 3:5 when it says Water and Spirit, it can mean the way you see it but keep in mind the context; not in some far off place but the verse next to it:

5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Verse 6 is the key to vs 5 because Jesus is clearly placing vs 5 in spirit and not action.  What is water then?  I believe it is in reference to John 4:

7   There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8   (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9   Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10   Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11   The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12   Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13   Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14   But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.[/
u]

        Spirit and Spirit?  Yes, just like vs 6.  The word, "and (in greek, Kai)" can also be "even" according to the greek word used.  Now lets say it does talk about water Baptism - we have a controdition then because in 3 vs 18:

18   He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

        Again, it didn't mention baptism, so if vs 5 did say it, then we see here a controdiction.
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« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2003, 04:44:48 AM »

       I see that there are other scriptures to deal with.  Ill getr to them soon but in 1 pr 3:21, Baptism is only a figure, a symbol of in reference to vs 18; here, water was used to kill people, it wasn't used to save at all, but it did take Noah and his family.  In this:

21   The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

       Baptism here, is clearly a picture of the ressurection, and that is why it is used.  Baptism is only a symbol, not an act to bring effect.

        IN Romans 6, how do we know its talking about Water Baptism?

3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

       The Word Baptism means to dunk, but in root, it means to be Identified with.  Just like a white hankerchiff, in red ink, we are identified with Him in death, and raised with Him from spiritual death.  To me, the two passages are clearly spiritual, the word Baptism does not always refer to water:

50   But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! - Luke 12:50

       Water Baptism?  No, the kind of baptism He is talking about is clearly in reference to His death.
       So how can we tell whether it is water or not?  By context; in Romans 6, we were baptised with Him To what?  His death.  And we were raised with Him.  If this was water, it wouldnt make sense because the only purpose to Baptismal Regeneration is to wash sins away.  In Romans 6, it talks about a baptism that changes life.

agur
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« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2003, 05:07:19 AM »

In Matthew 3:13-17 we read the account of Christís baptism in water. Does the Scriptures tell us that we should follow Him in baptism? No. You will not find this reason anywhere. In this passage, the reason Christ Himself gave for being baptised was that it was fitting for "us" (John and Himself) to "fulfill all righteousness" (verse 15).

if we are to follow Christ in this obligation, should we not also follow Him in His observance of the Law, in His keeping the Jewish feast days, and even in circumcision (again a Jewish legal responsibility)?

Water baptism symbolises our death, burial and resurrection.

The passage many believers will turn to to prove this is Romans 6.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)

This is a saving baptism that Paul speaks of in these verses. But arenít we saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)? So, since we are saved apart from our own efforts, many Christians interpret this passage as symbolic in order to preserve the doctrine of water baptism while not denying the truth of Godís saving grace. But the baptism Paul writes of here is a saving baptism, for it is by this baptism that we are baptised into Christís death and raised in His resurrection. This is the same baptism spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.


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« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2003, 04:49:26 PM »

brolove,

Quote
if we are to follow Christ in this obligation, should we not also follow Him in His observance of the Law, in His keeping the Jewish feast days, and even in circumcision (again a Jewish legal responsibility)?

The odinances of feast days, was given to the Nation of Israel not the Chruch, nor to the gentiles, they (the ordinances) are done away with in Christ.

I know today many want to associate themselves with jewdism, but these are not commanded to be observed at all by Christians, please note verses 12, 13 and 14 below at Colossians. .

Quote
Petro said;
"For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body . . ."

This is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ--a saving baptism, but not one that is accomplished by water.


Quote
brolove replied:

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.

The same Paul who wrote letters to  the Romans 6, Ephesians1 and 2, 1 Corinthians 12, wrote  to the Colossians and  at chapter 2,  speaks of the Baptism by which Christians are  sealed by the Holy Spirit, and it is performed by faith of the operation of God, this has nothing to do with human hands.

Water Baptism is performed with human hands.

Note:

Col 2
8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not water baptism at all, it is a true cleansing by FAITH performed by the operation of Godaccoding to verse 12, above, it includes circumcision of the heart,  made without hands, being buried with Him, in His baptism (meaning His death and resurrection), which He spoke about at Luke 12:50,  (He is not referning to John's Baptism, since He had already been baptized, when He spoke  this words).

Whether one wants to admit it or not, water baptism, is symbolic, and it points to the Word of God, which is likened to water...whom the Holy Spirit uses to wash away sin, and gives newness  of life, regenerating and renewing  the soul and spirit of man.


Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2003, 05:49:10 PM »

Look throughout Scripture and you will not find any support for the theory of baptismal symbolism, for baptism never was intended as a symbol.

Amen Brother Love Amen
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« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2003, 07:55:15 PM »

Acts 2:36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
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« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2003, 10:33:55 PM »

Acts 2:36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


ollie,

Understanding this passage in its context is crucial to understanding the significance of water baptism in relation to the Batism with the Holy Ghost performed by Jesus to them whom, God has mgiven Him.

Please note that the "gift of the Holy Ghost, is not the same as "baptism of the Holy Ghost", in been baptized with the Holy Ghost, every believer is given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

At Jhn 14:14-18, Jesus makes it known the Holy Ghost is another conforter, and Jesus reveals at verse 18,I will come to you to the believer.

So it is not enough to just simply quote the verses, unless one can understand them, one cannot worship God in a way that is pleasing, since understanding God's word affects the way people worship.

I think enough has been said about this matter, and those who are convinced, they know the answer to the question;

"Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation?"

as being in the affirmative, will not be swayed, since it would involve needing to unravel their fishing line, and would rather not go to that trouble, because it would involve major changes in their way of worshipping, they simply would rather fish with a "bird nest" in their line, and teach all sorts of other doctrines not found in swcripture; from the second blessing evidenced by speaking in tongues to having visions, and hearing voices from God.

Blessings,

Petro

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« Reply #99 on: October 22, 2003, 01:18:14 AM »

Baptize means to wash.
Repent, and be washed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
WATER HAS NO MAGICAL PROPERTIES.
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« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2003, 03:24:02 AM »

Acts 2:36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


(Acts 2:36) "let all the house of Israel " Smiley

(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!



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« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2003, 04:29:30 AM »

Baptize means to wash.
Repent, and be washed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
WATER HAS NO MAGICAL PROPERTIES.


Different Baptisms
This study is designed to debunk the notion that the only baptism in the bible is water baptism. Check it out for yourself.

1. 3 Baptisms in one verse - Mat 3:11
2. Jesusí Baptism - Mat 3:15
3. Jesusí Death Baptism - Mat 20:22
4. Great Commission Baptism - Mat 28:19; Acts 1:5
5. Peter's Gentile Baptism - Acts 10:48
6. Believers Death Baptism - Rom 6:3-4
7. Baptism For The Dead - 1 Cor 15:29
8. The One Baptism - Eph 4:5
9. Noah's Baptism - 1 Pet 3:20,21
10. Pharisees Baptism - Mark 7:4

And of Course... The Hebrew water rites - Heb 9:10
So whenever you read the words "baptism", "baptize" do not assume that it means "water baptism"; not all baptisms make you wet.






(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



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« Reply #102 on: October 22, 2003, 04:48:10 AM »

Quote
Baptize means to wash.
Repent, and be washed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
WATER HAS NO MAGICAL PROPERTIES.

Actually, baptize comes from the Greek baptizo which means "to immerse."  Water has no magical properties, I agree!  But it is with the blood of Christ that we are washed...

"For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins..."
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
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« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2003, 05:29:04 AM »

...it is with the blood of Christ that we are washed...

"For without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins..."

Amen

Brother Love Smiley






(Acts 17:11 KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2003, 11:27:27 AM »

I'm glad you all have it figured out. You have dissected the Word so as to obliterate any meaning whatsoever. "Repent and be baptized" does'nt mean what it says because of some overriding teaching based on "rightly dividing the word of truth". This is the most laughable exuse for not obeying the words of Jesus that I have ever encounterd. And so it goes: "ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
Oh well, love still covers over a multitude of sins.
Have a nice eternity.

asaph
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