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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 21394 times)
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« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2003, 01:20:36 PM »

O.K.
So I’m late in the discussion. How about I throw in something totally different.
Throughout the bible water represents the gospel. It is parabolic language.
Jesus spoke of this living water:

John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

When someone becomes saved they cannot help but tell others. Remember what Jesus told the Samaritan woman about water? Some time read Numbers 20 with the idea that it is the Gospel flowing out of Christ.

Numbers 20:10  And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Numbers 20:11  And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

There are more references. False teachers as wells without water. The garden of Eden:

Genesis 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden;

The garden was in Eden. To irrigate you bring water in to your garden, you don’t remove water to irrigate your garden.

Any way when we are baptized by water it is usually an indication that we are under the hearing of the Gospel.
There is an exception to that that I’ll try to explain a little later.
To baptize means to wash, with spiritual implications. As in:

Mark 7:4  And when they come from the market, except they wash {baptizo}, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized {baptizo} every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Next time you read the word ‘baptize’ substitute the word ‘wash’ and see if you understand it a little differently.
To be washed in the name of Christ means to be washed in the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The gospel relates to salvation by the blood of Christ. Therefore water is used as a substitute for the Lords blood.
It was necessary for the priesthood to be cleansed by the sprinkling of water.

Numbers 8:6  Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
Numbers 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Even if this was washing the dirt off of their body you are not going to get very clean with sprinkling.
Jesus came as the high priest. He was not recognized as such. He could not go to the temple and have this rite, of ceremonial washing, done.
Thus it was necessary for Jesus to perform this washing through John the Baptist. Only as a priest could He have the complete authority to pay for our sins.
Jesus’ baptism was for ceremonial purposes.
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« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2003, 06:18:44 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I have no wish to argue or debate on this topic. I simply wish to state a view for what it is worth.

Prior to the cross, there were all kinds of rituals and ceremonies dealing with cleansing and forgiveness of sin. In my opinion, water baptism was one of them. There were also sacrifices made for forgiveness of sin. Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice and payment for sin. After the cross, the Holy Spirit is revealed in the Scriptures. Jesus Christ ascended back to heaven, but the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) remained as a comforter and guide, living in the heart of the individual believers who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses and the baptism Paul spoke of is not a ritual or ceremony, rather by the Holy Spirit of God in the heart, inward and real as opposed to outward and ceremonial. This one baptism is only done once and the believer is baptized into the Church which is the Body of Christ, a Church not made with human hands. There is no other cleansing that can compare, and the result is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. This is the baptism I believe in. I understand why many people believe differently, and I have no desire to harm the faith of another brother or sister in Christ with this belief. If a person is truly saved, they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with or without the outward ceremony of water baptism.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2003, 07:52:55 PM »

Very well put BEP you always have something good to say that makes sense to me!Thank you!You know the more ive read and studied,this is what is on my heart.Water Baptism is a symbol of our faith,and our acceptense of Jesus Christ.The best is still to come,when the Holy Spirit fills us!This is the greatest!
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« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2003, 09:22:09 PM »

Very well put BEP you always have something good to say that makes sense to me!Thank you!You know the more ive read and studied,this is what is on my heart.Water Baptism is a symbol of our faith,and our acceptense of Jesus Christ.The best is still to come,when the Holy Spirit fills us!This is the greatest!

Oklahoma Howdy to Jabez,

Thanks Brother. It is unfortunate that this and many other issues cause so much division between brothers and sisters in Christ. When I saw the reply to my post so quickly, I was thinking it would be negative. It is my opinion that a person could study the Gospel of God's Grace for several lifetimes and not uncover all of the GOOD NEWS! of the cross and what it actually meant. I'm certainly not saying that I have the all of the right answers, but I can say with 1000% certainty that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Saviour and I will spend eternity with HIM. Assurance of Salvation is another wonderful TRUTH in the Gospel of God's Grace. Man is weak and uncertain, but IN CHRIST man is a new creature. Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2003, 12:04:58 AM »

Amen to what has been said;

I am reminded, that the baptism with which Jesus was baptized by John, if it would have been the real thing, He would not have spoken of another Baptism, please notice;

Luke 13
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The division which our Lord speaks of at verse 51, is not between them that have been born of incorruptible seed,  spiritual brethern, but between the natural seedline, members of the same household, between them that do not believe Gods Word and those that do..

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness.

Whosoever has not the eternal assurance of His blood and righteousness does not belong to Him..

Because they have NOT believed

"the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."  1 Jhn 5:11

And since it is God that washes away our sin, water baptism is only a shadow of the real Baptism with which, we are Baptized.


Blessings,

Petro


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« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2003, 12:15:40 AM »

Joh 3:22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:26  And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 4:1  When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2  (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Jesus baptized, yet, He did not baptize, but his disciples did. Paul admitted to baptizing some yet said that he was not sent to baptize. I believe that Paul simply let others do the baptizing for him just as Jesus did. Paul's concern was that some would think he baptized in his own name. He was not opposed to baptism itself.

Water baptism is not for regeneration but for salvation. Noah was already a child of God by faith before he was saved from the judgement passed on the world by water. The water baptism (flood) he underwent separated him from the world. When the children of Israel were baptized into the Red Sea they were separated from Egypt which came under judgement. Water baptism is related to the world; it is the mark of discipleship to Jesus. It separates you from the world system of religion and politics. Their is a judgement of the world coming, and now is, that baptism saves us from. Jesus plainly commanded all Jews and Gentiles to be baptized having believed. To disobey is to risk being judged with the world. There are two opposing worlds involved. In baptism we cross over from one to the other.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Every creature means gentiles too! Someone on this thread said that baptism is not for the Gentiles. Jesus disagrees.

Peter says that water baptism saves us. Notice it does not say it regenerates us?

1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is the answer of regeneration (a good conscience). If you believe the Gospel and are regenerated, you answer with baptism in water. "Repent and be baptized". To say we do not have to be baptized is a slap in the face of Jesus, Peter, Paul, Luke etc.

To not be baptized as a believer is an oxymoron. Baptism follows regeneration as an act of obedience to the Lords commandment. "If you love me keep my commandments."

Disobey at your own risk.

Salvation is the coming out of the world system to be identified with Christ. Water baptism is the means Jesus chose for this coming out. The worlds religions and political systems may persecute you for it but remember, even now judgement is passed upon this world. Save yourself from this perverse generation.

 Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:

asaph

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« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2003, 01:16:42 AM »

Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Water baptism is not in question here. What is refered to here is regenerational baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ. There is only one entry into Christ. Religion or politics cannot bring you into Christ. Oneness of the Spirit is kept by faith in this. Water baptism is not opposed to this because it does not regenerate but saves. You cannot be saved unless you are regenerated first. Salvation is related to the kosmos (the world system) and the judgement God has already passed on it. We are saved from God's wrath.

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Every good gift that God offers us is given to meet and counter a contrasting evil. He give us justification because there is condemnation. He gives us eternal life because there is death. He offers us forgiveness because there are sins. He brings us salvation because there is a world system (kosmos).
The world, the flesh and the devil are opposed to the three divine persons. The flesh is against the Holy Spirit. Satan is against Jesus as Lord. The world (kosmos) is against the Father as Creator. The world system always opposes God and the world is what baptism saves us from. This is how God sees it. We come out of a world which satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God. In Islamic countries this is very evident. If you are baptized there you usually face terrible hardship or death. They see clearly that you are no longer of their world and let you know it. Because baptism is a public event, a confession of faith, it brings you into a definite
separation from the world. This is the salvation that water baptism brings. You may be persecuted for it but God delivers you from the wrath to come.

This is how I see it.

asaph
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« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2003, 01:44:52 AM »

Quote
Asaph's reply #65

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

asaph,

There is no evidence at all, that Jesus baptized, in fact the written record herein is very carefull to tell us, that Jesus, Himself did not Baptize, but His disciples did.

This baptism of water, was begun by John for the express purpose of manisfesting Christ to the nation Israel, as the one who would Baptize with the Holy Ghost, John bare this record (Jhn 1:19-34)

John's baptism is referred to as "unto remission of sins", or "baptism of repentance" (Mk 1:4, Lk 2:2) and Jesus who was baptized by John, was not baptized for the remission of sin, neither for repentance,  at all,  that John's baptism was from above is evident since he was sent by God to baptize with water (and he tells us why he cames baptizing with water) Jhn 1:31.

Jesus was not baptized by John for the reasons mentioned above, but as a symbol of His identification with sinful mankind.

Before His ascension Jesus commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to all the world, baptizing them all who believed this saving message in the name of the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mk 16:15-16)


Quote
1 Pet 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Note that Verse 21 begins with the words the like figure meaning water baptism is the shadow,of the reral baptism administered by Jesus, and same verse  above, clearly explains, that physical washing (water baptism) is nothing but  the answer of a good conscience toward God, IS.

In fact Peter in the previous chapter , elaborates on this very thing at verse;

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This birth of the Word of God, occurs because of Faith  in the only begotten Son of God, which is given to every  believer at the moment of Salvation, this is the new birth, by the will of God. (Jhn 1:11-13)

Men do not love the brethern of whom, Jesus is, until being regenerated by the Holy Ghost, evidenced by this gift which is received in these earthen vessels until after one is saved, this is the evidence made clear from 1 Pet 1:22-23.

Only then can anyone obey the commandments given by Him.

Obeidence to Gods Word precedes Salvation, which then is followed by keeping the Lords NEW commandments in included those engraven in the fleshly tablets of our new hearts.

Blessings,  
Petro
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« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2003, 05:14:35 AM »


My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness.


AMEN! Brother Petro,

I love your expression of hope above. There is a beautiful contrast and comparison here. A hope based on the blood and righteousness of Jesus is ROCK SOLID! In this context, it is only called "hope" because we have not yet received all the Promises of God in this earthly body of clay. The Scriptures speak of these promises as surely as if they had already been fulfilled. There is no greater reality than a PROMISE FROM ALMIGHTY GOD!

The other contrast and comparison regards the Righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to undeserving children. If my hope was based on me, I would have no hope because I have no righteousness apart from the blood of Jesus Christ. God's Love, God's Grace, and God's GIFT of HIS SON on the cross in my stead is also my HOPE. Thanks be unto God for HIS Unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2003, 05:28:06 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Asaph,

Yes, I do consider you to be a brother because I believe that you have Jesus Christ in your heart. You may not believe the same of me because of our different views of baptism. I would hope not. I am very happy to see you back on Christians Unite. We missed you!

I see that you are genuine and dedicated to your belief about baptism. I would hope you feel the same way about me. I decided before I made the post that I would not argue or debate this topic, so I won't. I simply tell you that I think we will spend eternity together with Jesus because of HIS shed blood and our faith in HIM as our personal Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2003, 05:34:55 AM »

The Scriptures contain several water baptism ceremonies which we believe are related to God's earthly kingdom purposes concerning Israel and the nations (Acts 2:36-38; 13:24), but the Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13). Therefore this Church does not practise the ordinance of water baptism BUT recognising the differences in understanding on the part of sincere believers in this Church and from other denominations who are our beloved brother and sisters in Christ, grants the liberty to its members in grace to adhere to their own convictions on the subject, as long as they do not invest any saving merit in water baptism, or make the subject a matter of contention in the Church.

I agree with the above doctrine

Brother Love  Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2003, 06:19:04 AM »

Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Water baptism is not in question here. What is refered to here is regenerational baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ. There is only one entry into Christ. Religion or politics cannot bring you into Christ. Oneness of the Spirit is kept by faith in this. Water baptism is not opposed to this because it does not regenerate but saves. You cannot be saved unless you are regenerated first. Salvation is related to the kosmos (the world system) and the judgement God has already passed on it. We are saved from God's wrath.

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Every good gift that God offers us is given to meet and counter a contrasting evil. He give us justification because there is condemnation. He gives us eternal life because there is death. He offers us forgiveness because there are sins. He brings us salvation because there is a world system (kosmos).
The world, the flesh and the devil are opposed to the three divine persons. The flesh is against the Holy Spirit. Satan is against Jesus as Lord. The world (kosmos) is against the Father as Creator. The world system always opposes God and the world is what baptism saves us from. This is how God sees it. We come out of a world which satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God. In Islamic countries this is very evident. If you are baptized there you usually face terrible hardship or death. They see clearly that you are no longer of their world and let you know it. Because baptism is a public event, a confession of faith, it brings you into a definite
separation from the world. This is the salvation that water baptism brings. You may be persecuted for it but God delivers you from the wrath to come.

This is how I see it.

asaph

EPHESIANS 4:5 with 1 CORINTHIANS 12:3

By this one baptism, I am placed into Christ and Christ into me. I become one with Him as a member of His body.

By this one baptism, I'm not only in Christ, but I'm sealed in Him forever.

By this one baptism, I have been seated in the heavenlies and have been blessed with all spiritual blessings.

By this one baptism, I've become one with Him and one with each member of Christ's Body forever.

I believe in baptism - this greatest baptism in all the Bible, baptised into the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

A Final Word . . .
Maybe you've been baptised with water or had some kind of "religious" experience, but you can receive this real baptism. The Lord Jesus died on the cross to bear my sins and your sins, to pay for them once for all time. Whoever you are, no matter where you've come from, no matter what you've ever done, if you have never trusted in Him, He's waiting for you and He's inviting you now to trust in Him as your Savior. Stop trying to save yourself. Stop depending on a church, a sacrament, some ritual prayers, or a religion. God will save you tonight if you will simply put your faith in, and rely on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. At that very moment, God the Holy Spirit will baptize you and will place you into the body of the Lord Jesus Christ. You could never be closer to God than that. If you want to be saved right now, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God will save you.

AMEN & AMEN

Grace & Peace

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« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2003, 06:21:24 AM »

Thank you BL that was very well said!
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« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2003, 11:31:41 AM »

Thanks to you all for your responses. It is all very interesting. BEP, you indeed have not received the grace of God in vain. You are well received. Thank you! The Lord bless you all as you seek Jesus. BL Jesus is the reality of all ordinances but that does not preclude us entering into them, especially communion and baptism. We only hurt ourselves by not practicing them.

asaph
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« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2003, 12:08:46 PM »

907 baptizw baptizo bap-tid’-zo

from a derivative of 911; TDNT-1:529,92; verb

AV-baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

++++
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words.  Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough.  There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! (Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989). I am sorry I don't have a link I can give you for this.
It is in my bible translations program.
For what it is worth I believe that sprinkling is proper but this is a very good way of looking at this process.
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John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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