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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 20466 times)
Brother Love
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« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2003, 04:13:07 AM »

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

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« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2003, 04:19:52 AM »

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Verse 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. WOW!!!

Only ONE Baptim Not 2, 3 or 4. Ephesians 4:5, NOT by human hands Col 2:11,12.
God The Holy Spirit is NOW the Baptizer, He Baptises the BELIEVER into Christ, which NOW is The C-H-U-R-C-H.
NO WATER.

 
Romans 6:1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is the ONE Baptism Ephesians 4:5 with 1 Corithians 12:13
NO WATER.

HERE is a list of cults that do not follow Paul today because they require Israel's water baptism for salvation.... Jehovah's Witnesses , Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ, and others.... who you going to believe? Men or God?
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« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2003, 04:21:26 AM »

Ephesians 4:5 There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Despite this truth many preachers and teachers insist on a multiplicity of baptisms. This insistence constitutes a slap in the face of God for it demeans the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) as being insufficient. We are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and no ritual of man (though borrowed from God's earlier Hebrew program) can add anything to that.
There are some that would preach THREE baptisms, some TWO and some ONE for the current Church age.

Some would sprinkle, some pour. Some would immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants and others would baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized while others say that baptism is a testimony only. How sad! What a blessing it is to understand that Paul's commission did not include the Hebrew water rite of baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). How reassuring it is to know that we are "complete" in Christ and that man can add nothing to our position in Christ nor take away any of our spiritual blessings "in heavenly places in Christ."


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« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2003, 04:39:15 AM »

Was Paul sent to Baptize?

Every one of the twelve had to emphatically confess, "Christ sent me to baptize". But, Paul just as emphatically declared: "Christ sent me not to baptize". Now, is there any difference in these two statements? Those who water baptize say that there is not one bid of difference! Well, what do words mean then? Was Paul lying? Didn't Paul say what he meant to say? Why do men have to twist his words? Some say , that Paul's main business was preaching the gospel and that he delegated the less important work of baptizing converts to others.

But I choose to believe Paul when he said, "Christ sent me not to baptize." Why then, should I be called a heretic when I commit no sin other than to take the words of the great apostle Paul and tell the world that "Christ sent me not to baptize."?

If water baptism is indeed an act of obedience to Christ; if it is one of the ordinances of the church; if it is a sacramental means of grace whereby we receive forgiveness; if it is the divinely appointed means of confessing Christ to the world; if it is our burial with Christ; if it is the answer of a good conscience toward God; how can we understand Paul's light treatment of it? If water baptism was necessary; if it accomplished anything; if it was a basis for Christian fellowship, how could Paul in any sense of the word say: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius. (1Cor. 1:14). Listen, if water baptism is any of these things that men and tradition claim for it, is it not strange that we do not find even one world of positive instruction in all of Paul's epistles for its observance? Paul gives us definite instruction concerning the observance of the Lord's

Table and is careful to state that he received this truth by revelation from the Lord. There were more sins and trouble at Corinth over the wrong observance of the Lord's Table that were caused by baptism, but Paul didn't therefore thank God that he had not given them the Lord's Table, nor did he state, "Christ sent me not to observe the Lord's Table. The argument from silence is a strong one, and I think there is no valid reason for practicing water baptism in this new grace dispensation.

Paul gives no command to water baptize in any of his epistles. But not only does Paul omit any command to water baptize in any of his epistles, he clearly states exactly the opposite--- "Christ sent me not to baptize." Hence, if you choose to water baptize, don't fault the liberals and spiritualizers who choose to make any other part of the Bible to mean something different from what it says.

If we fail to recognize the transitional character of the book of Acts we will never understand Paul's practice of water baptism , nor many other things---circumcision, vows, animal sacrifices, tongues, miracles, etc. of his early ministry. You see, Paul was saved during the Pentecostal administration of the gospel of the Kingdom, and Ananias was sent to him with the same message as was presented to any Jewish believer of that day, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). It was out of this dispensational situation that Paul emerged into the new dispensation which God committed to him.

This emergence was not a sudden one, but it was gradual, covering a period of about 25 years. As Paul progressively received more and more revelation of God's purpose and program in this present dispensation of grace (Acts 26:16; 2 Cor. 12:1), he came to realize the significance of the omission of water baptism from his commission and the abiding reality of the One Baptism of (Eph. 4:5.)

By the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he had no doubt realized these things fully and clearly, even to the extent that he could thank God that he had baptized none there, save a very few. People talk about unity today, but baptism is one of the most divisive issues of all however, I believe that the only basis for real unity, is God's truth for this dispensation of grace concerning the One Baptism of that distinctive body truth which we find only in Paul's epistles. Nothing less than the real baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ can unify Christendom.

Believers need to understand that water baptism is scriptural; it just needs to be placed in the right dispensation, and then all becomes clear. Only confusion and disunity results from trying to place things into the wrong dispensation.

Thus, once again, dispensational Bible study comes to the rescue and shows us how and why things are the way they are. It is only when you fail to study from the dispensational viewpoint that things become confusing and get out of hand.


I agree 100%

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« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2003, 04:42:54 AM »

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 1 of 2)

 

BAPTISM: means To Place Into, or On; For The Purpose Of Identification

It is a surprise to many people, including Christians, to learn that the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to immerse into water! Of course there is a "water baptism" in the Bible, but the word "BAPTISM" does not mean to place into water. "Water Baptism" is only one (1) of twelve (12) different baptisms spoken of in the Scriptures. Years of tradition have taught most people to think of "water" every time they read the word "baptism" in their Bible. This has caused great confusion.

Just a simple examination of the usage of the term "BAPTISM" in the Bible will teach us NOT to think of water as part of the meaning of the word, but to substitute the meaning "PLACE INTO" or "PLACE ON." The context in each case will determine what it is that someone or something is being placed into.

We do not have the space to look into all twelve (12) different usages of the term, but we will look at five (5) of them. There are three (3) "BAPTISMS" found in just one verse, Matthew 3:11, which says:

"I INDEED BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER UNTO REPENTANCE: BUT HE THAT COMETH AFTER ME IS MIGHTIER THAN I, WHOSE SHOES I AM NOT WORTH TO BEAR: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE."

 

BAPTISM #1

"WATER BAPTISM"

(John Baptized with water)

John the Baptist placed people  into water or, as some may prefer it said, John placed water on people. Either way John's Baptism was a "water baptism." Its purpose was to identify the believing remnant of Israel with their Messiah - Jesus Christ. (By the way, the reason Jesus Christ was water baptized was for the same reason, only in reverse.) According to John 1:31, Jesus Christ was identified to Israel, and Israel to Him, through water baptism. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus Christ who announced to Israel His coming and prepared them to be received by their King through the cleansing of water baptism. This is why John announced that one greater--with a greater baptism--was coming.

 

BAPTISM #2

"BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT"

The greater person John was speaking of was the Lord Jesus Christ. According to the testimony of John, when Christ came He would have a greater baptism. John baptized with water, but Jesus Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This was a reference to the Day of Pentecost which took place after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back into heaven - see Acts 1:5-8 and Acts 2:1-5. From heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ "Poured Out" or placed His Spirit on that believing remnant of Israel, just as John promised and as was predicted in Joel 2:28-32.

 

BAPTISM #3

"BAPTISM WITH FIRE"

John not only introduced and identified the believing remnant of Israel to Jesus Christ, he also warned unrepenting and unbelieving Israel that Jesus Christ would have two (2) baptisms when he came. Believing Israel would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is the imparting of Life. Unbelieving Israel would be baptized with fire. This "baptism of fire" is the judgement of the fires of hell, according to Matthew 3:12. This will take place when Jesus Christ shall place unbelievers into the fires of hell. Thank the Lord, Jesus Christ has saved us who believe from that baptism!

Already in this one verse we have seen three (3) different types of BAPTISM; baptism with water, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and even baptism with fire. Notice only one involved water!

Let this be a lesson to you. Do not think of "water" every time you read the word "baptism." Let the Bible tell you what the baptism is into. Then be sure to believe what the Bible says and not what some men will say the Bible means.

 

BAPTISM #4

"BAPTISM INTO DEATH"

For the fourth (4th) baptism, see Mark 10:38,39,45. In this passage a baptism yet laid ahead for the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the future for James and John as well.

When our Lord spoke of a baptism that he was facing, he was speaking of his death on the Cross. He was placed on the cross for the purpose of having our sins placed on him. And, by identifying Himself with our sins, He paid for them in His death. Jesus Christ was baptized into our death. This is also spoken of in Luke 12:50 and again in I Peter 3:21. It is called:

"THE BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES"!

In the case of James and John this baptism speaks of their martyr's death. Jesus Christ prophesied and history has recorded that both James and John were placed into death preaching the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They died for the sake of others - so that others may hear the gospel and be saved. This is the baptism that Paul was speaking about in I Corinthians 15:29.

 



DITTO Smiley
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« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2003, 04:44:49 AM »

From: DICTIONARY OF THE GOSPEL
http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm

"B A P T I S M" (Part 2 of 2)

BAPTISM #5

"BAPTISM INTO CHRIST"

The fifth (5th) and final BAPTISM we shall look at is a baptism which is taught exclusively by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. It is the fact that the Apostle Paul mentions water baptism only one time in all of his epistles. This one time is found in I Corinthians 1:13-17. As water baptism continued into the New Gentile age, it brought confusion and division (just as it is doing in the churches today). Paul's solution was simple: stop water baptizing! But how could he decide to stop? Didn't Jesus Christ command him to baptize? No! After Paul thanked God and he didn't baptize more than he did, he states in verse 17:

"FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT."

Paul was the Apostle of a new age of God's grace. His message and ministry to the Gentiles was distinctly different from the message and ministry of the Twelve Apostles to Israel. Water baptism belonged to the message God had for the nation of Israel. However, there is a baptism taught by the Apostle that is for this age. Be careful to notice it is not water baptism. Paul writes in I Corinthians 12:13.

"FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT."

The baptism that the Apostle Paul taught was a baptism into Christ. This baptism is the placing of the Believer (today) into the Body of Christ. It is important for you to realize that in I Corinthians 12:13 (just quoted), the baptizer is not a minister but God the Holy Spirit. From this verse, we can also see that the Holy Spirit does not place the believer into water but into Christ! Here again, we need to remember to believe what the Bible say, and not what men say the Bible means.

This "Baptism I into Christ" is the baptism that identifies the Believer with the saving work of the Cross. Romans 6:3-5 teaches this baptism so clearly. The moment I trusted in Jesus Christ as my Savior, the Holy Spirit of God placed me into Christ's death (the cross where my sins were paid for) and into His burial (the payment is complete) and into Christ's resurrection (where I now have a new life in Christ). Since this "baptism" is the work of the Holy Spirit, some have properly termed this "Spiritual Baptism." Without a doubt it is this baptism that Paul teaches throughout his epistles as seen in Romans 6:3-5, I Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, and Colossians 2:10-13.

Our baptism into Christ is the basis for our forgiveness of sins. This is the real baptism that supersedes any ritual baptism previously taught. It is the reality of all that God has accomplished in my behalf through Jesus Christ!

To protect the truth of this baptism, God instructs us in Ephesians 4:1-6 to:

"KEEP (GUARD) THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT..."

We guard this unity by holding to, and defending His sevenfold unity:

"THERE IS ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT, EVEN AS YE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD, AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL."

According to this verse, there is only one (1) baptism today for the Believer which we are to hold and guard. This baptism is not water baptism. It is the BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. It is the work of the Holy Spirit Himself which has created a spiritual unity all of the Believers today, in Christ. Anyone who is still water baptizing is causing confusion and division by practicing a baptism which we have not been told to continue doing in the church epistles; and by believing in at least two baptisms for today, when the Scriptures tell us to keep the unity of the Spirit by holding to His one baptism.

Putting it all together, this is what we see. John the Baptist offered the nation of Israel forgiveness of their sins through water baptism. Those of the nation who received the baptism with the Holy Kingdom and will be raised to go into the Kingdom which was promised to them and was being proclaimed by Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry. But the baptism of fire did not come as John said it would. The judgement of the baptism of fire has been postponed along with the offer of the Kingdom promised to Israel. In the meantime, God has raised up the Apostle Paul with a message of grace which goes out today to both the rejecting Jew and to Gentiles concerning an equal opportunity they have been given (through Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection) to be saved, justified, and forgiven. Upon believing this message, God the Holy Spirit is baptizing these Believers into the Body of Christ. And "IN CHRIST" we have life, and hope, and an inheritance.

Israel was offered life, and hope, and inheritance according to the promises of God in the Old Testament. But we who are saved today were never promised these things. Yet they have been given to us by GRACE.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

PRACTICAL POINT:

If I have been made part of the Body of Christ through the baptism by the Spirit at the moment I believed the gospel; and if it were yet possible that I could lose my salvation and end up in hell, then part of the Body of Christ would be in hell.

This is not possible. I am secure in Christ because God the Holy Spirit put me there. I did not put myself there. Therefore I cannot take myself out. And since it is the Holy Spirit who also seals me in Christ, I am His forever!

II Timothy 2:11-13 teaches exactly this:

"IT IS A FAITHFUL SAYING: FOR IF WE BE DEAD WITH HIM, WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM"

This is the guarantee we have from the Scriptures based upon Believers baptism by the Spirit into Christ's death, burial, resurrection. The verses continue:

"IF WE SUFFER, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: IF WE DENY HIM, HE ALSO WILL DENY US:"

This verse promises us a reward of reigning with Jesus Christ if we are faithful to suffer for Him now. The second half of the verse warns that if we choose not to faithfully suffer for Jesus Christ in this life, then He will deny us the reward of a reigning position with Him in heaven. It does not mean He will deny us heaven because the previous verse has already guaranteed that "WE SHALL LIVE WITH HIM," and the following verse explains why:

"IF WE BELIEVE NOT, YET HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

If in our lifetime we depart from the faith--become unfaithful--even to the point of denying that we believe in Jesus Christ, the verse says, "YET HE (CHRIST) ABIDETH FAITHFUL." We may be unfaithful to Him, but He will remain faithful to us and keep His word by giving us eternal life anyway. The verse explains why He would do this: "HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." The believer is part of the Body of Christ and therefore cannot end up in hell. Jesus Christ will not allow it.

Does this security in Jesus Christ teach that we can now go out and live in sin? No, actually the Scriptures teach the opposite. This security in Jesus Christ will teach us not to live in sin. If you will keep reading all of Romans chapters 6,7, and 8, you will find out our baptism into Jesus Christ has freed us from the power of sin, so that we are no longer a slave to sin. No longer must sin reign in our lives. When sin raises it's ugly head, and we give in to it's temptation, we are forgiven for Christ's sake. But at the same time, the power to put away sin, and to go on living for the Lord, comes through KNOWING you are set free in Christ Jesus. Do as Romans 6:11 instructs - RECKON YOURSELF DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE UNTO GOD!

If you learn anything at all from this book, let it be this: you are hopeless and helpless in yourself to be good enough or to do anything that could please God enough to give you eternal life. However, because of what Jesus Christ has done for you on the Cross, God in his grace is free to receive you when your faith rests in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. By trusting only in the blood of Jesus Christ for your Salvation, God is free to give you eternal life, declaring you righteous because he see you "IN CHRIST." (Philippians 3:9)

"AND BE FOUND IN HIM (CHRIST) NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, BUT THAT WHICH IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH."


And DITTO Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2003, 10:19:25 AM »

L.C.,

Sorry for taking so long to reply!  Let me ask you a question - have you ever taken Greek?  I only ask because every Greek lexicon I have ever come across has defined the word baptizo as "to immerse" or "to wash thoroughly."  I have taken 1 and 1/2 years of N.T. Greek in Bible College, and it is upon this training that I rely in this matter.  Now, as to why I'm dogmatic?  I'm Baptist!  We dunk!   Grin
No I am not a Greek Scholar, however I learned of this from a man who was.
Now Iím in my fifties and he was more than 30 years older, I have been a believer for about 15-20 years he has been one since childhood.
What he taught was caution with lexicons, and historical records. While the bible is true, and the original text is God breathed; lexicons are written by men.
He taught that the first place to go for bible understanding is the bible itself, compare spiritual things with spiritual.
What do the lexicons say about fasting?
He showed me how we can understand Matthew 17 not from lexicons but rather from Isaiah 58.
He showed me that we can understand the baptism of Jesus from Numbers 8.
And he showed me how we can understand water baptism is from sprinkling from Numbers 8 and Ezekiel 36.
It really doesnít matter if you are dunked or sprinkled or if you have never been baptized in water. A Christian is washed in the blood of the lamb.
Quote
As for the concept of washing...Asaph,

You posted the following verse:

Quote
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Amen!  However, it is this transliteration that causes the problem.  We develope a concept of a physical act of obedience that I believe is taught, not for salvific grace, but in light of that grace - water baptism.  But what of the secondary meaning of baptizo?  "To wash thoroughly."  The verse would then read...

Quote
"He that believes and is washed shall be saved."

Washed with what?  Is it water that makes us "whiter than snow?"  I contest that it is the very blood of Christ.  
I agree! Only I believe the meaning, not secondary, is wash.
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2003, 10:42:48 AM »

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

Brother Love  Smiley
Weak arguement.
There is only one Lord but He is three Persons. Would you argue that the Father and the Spirit is not Lord?

John says that the Spirit and the water agree in one. You say there is only Spiritual baptism but John says the Spirit and the water agree in one.
1 John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Baptism has two aspects: the visible aspect by water and the invisible aspect by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 41; 10:44-48). The visible aspect is the expression, the testimony, of the invisible aspect, whereas the invisible aspect is the reality of the visible aspect. Without the invisible baptism by the Spirit, the visible baptism by water is vain, and without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by the Spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed.

asaph
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« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2003, 10:45:03 AM »

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Verse 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. WOW!!!

Only ONE Baptim Not 2, 3 or 4. Ephesians 4:5, NOT by human hands Col 2:11,12.
God The Holy Spirit is NOW the Baptizer, He Baptises the BELIEVER into Christ, which NOW is The C-H-U-R-C-H.
NO WATER.

 
Romans 6:1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is the ONE Baptism Ephesians 4:5 with 1 Corithians 12:13
NO WATER.

HERE is a list of cults that do not follow Paul today because they require Israel's water baptism for salvation.... Jehovah's Witnesses , Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ, and others.... who you going to believe? Men or God?

8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
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Petro
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« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2003, 11:39:21 AM »

Quote
asaph's reply #134

Petro,
You do make a strong case. However the Corinthians were all baptized by someone in water. Listen:

13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

asaph

No argument here, they were baptized with water, and this is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit spoken of by John the Baptist; furthermore, this baptism performed with human hands was in obedience to the command;

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It is the confession, Jesus speaks of at;

Mat 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

This confession is based on Jesus's death, burial and resurrection, and being associated with it. That is to say, that by faith, believers, believe and understand they have died, been buried, and have risen with Him by the operation of God.

But what is most convincing is what Jesus said at;

Mk 16
15   Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Verse 16, prefaces, the one baptism which saves (Col2:11-12) which is by faith in what God has done, and not men, and the baptism of water which confesses to men follows.

Quote
The bold type emphatically says they were all baptized. The subject is obviously water baptism. If your theory is correct then Paul would have had many opportinities to plainly say that water baptism was not needed at all. But where is this explicitly stated? It's not.

asaph


It is written plainly,

Eph 4
5  ............. [one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father
of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And water baptism is not it.

Even GRACE is measured out according to the gift of Christ.

It is no secret, and amazing that those who place their faith in water baptism, also, error (by teach contrary to scripture)in their view of the losing of the free gift of FAITH through the GRACE of God.

They teach that one can and will lose their salvation, unless they keep the commandments perfectly, and yet none due.

And when questioned concerning this matter, it results that they really do not believe what they teach, since none believe they lose it imediately upon sinning, but is a process whereby they are kept by grace, and must in the end die in sin, in order to lose it.

It is a confused teaching, based on this point, that their salvation is based on what they do, and this begings this works gosple, which is unbiblical, since it rejects the blood that bought them, and places more emphasis on their own works.

Yes, I know, people from this camp reject this notion, but it is what they do, that gives what they believe away and the object of their faith on which they rest, which is themselves.

When building, a builder knows that if he is off a fraction of an inch, at the starting point, the problem will be compounded as the building progresses, so much so, that every piece added will in the end result in a tremendous accumulated  error amounting to several inches or even feet, where the building will not even match the footprint of the foundation.

This is why, the Apostle states;

1 Cor 3
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Quote
You said;

We all know that water does not save us in and of itself

What??
If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version,  he does not possess the Holy Spirit!

Quote
But what about obeying the command of Jesus? This should stop all argument dead in it's tracks. What do you say? (posted by asaph Oct 24, 03 11:09:15 AM) October

Whats your point?  This command was given privately to the (11) Apostles (Mat 28:16, Mk 16:11, not to individuals, no one baptized himself, nor do believers baptize .
And Jesus qualified this point by making it plain those who believe are saved, making it clear that those who believe not, and are water baptized are damned..
The object of one faith is clear when we begin speaking of it.

Clearly, water baptism, is not what produces the Hoily Spirit in individuals who believe HIM..

Blessings,

Petro
« Last Edit: October 30, 2003, 11:46:19 AM by Petro » Logged

asaph
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« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2003, 01:38:04 PM »

The Apostle Paul, whom Christ sent not to baptise (1 Cor 1:17), explicitly states concerning the Body of Christ, "There is one baptism" (Eph 4:5), which is administered by the Holy Spirit and not by human hands (Col 2:11,12), which results in the permanent union of every believer as a member of the Church which is His Body (1 Cor 12:13).

In this age of Grace, NO WATER!

Brother Love  
 
 
Weak argument.
There is only one Lord but He is three Persons. Would you argue that the Father and the Spirit is not Lord?

John says that the Spirit and the water agree in one. You say there is only Spiritual baptism but John says the Spirit and the water agree in one.
1 John 5
8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Baptism has two aspects: the visible aspect by water and the invisible aspect by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 41; 10:44-48). The visible aspect is the expression, the testimony, of the invisible aspect, whereas the invisible aspect is the reality of the visible aspect. Without the invisible baptism by the Spirit, the visible baptism by water is vain, and without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by the Spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed.

asaph


Acts 2
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40   And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41   Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 10
44   While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45   And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46   For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47   Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2003, 01:42:26 PM by asaph » Logged
asaph
Guest
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2003, 05:18:17 PM »

Quote
asaph's reply #134

Petro,
You do make a strong case. However the Corinthians were all baptized by someone in water. Listen:

13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

asaph

No argument here, they were baptized with water, and this is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit spoken of by John the Baptist; furthermore, this baptism performed with human hands was in obedience to the command;

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It is the confession, Jesus speaks of at;

Mat 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

This confession is based on Jesus's death, burial and resurrection, and being associated with it. That is to say, that by faith, believers, believe and understand they have died, been buried, and have risen with Him by the operation of God.

But what is most convincing is what Jesus said at;

Mk 16
15   Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Verse 16, prefaces, the one baptism which saves (Col2:11-12) which is by faith in what God has done, and not men, and the baptism of water which confesses to men follows.

Quote
The bold type emphatically says they were all baptized. The subject is obviously water baptism. If your theory is correct then Paul would have had many opportinities to plainly say that water baptism was not needed at all. But where is this explicitly stated? It's not.

asaph


It is written plainly,

Eph 4
5  ............. [one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father
of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And water baptism is not it.

Even GRACE is measured out according to the gift of Christ.

It is no secret, and amazing that those who place their faith in water baptism, also, error (by teach contrary to scripture)in their view of the losing of the free gift of FAITH through the GRACE of God.

They teach that one can and will lose their salvation, unless they keep the commandments perfectly, and yet none due.

And when questioned concerning this matter, it results that they really do not believe what they teach, since none believe they lose it imediately upon sinning, but is a process whereby they are kept by grace, and must in the end die in sin, in order to lose it.

It is a confused teaching, based on this point, that their salvation is based on what they do, and this begings this works gosple, which is unbiblical, since it rejects the blood that bought them, and places more emphasis on their own works.

Yes, I know, people from this camp reject this notion, but it is what they do, that gives what they believe away and the object of their faith on which they rest, which is themselves.

When building, a builder knows that if he is off a fraction of an inch, at the starting point, the problem will be compounded as the building progresses, so much so, that every piece added will in the end result in a tremendous accumulated  error amounting to several inches or even feet, where the building will not even match the footprint of the foundation.

This is why, the Apostle states;

1 Cor 3
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Quote
You said;

We all know that water does not save us in and of itself

What??
If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version,  he does not possess the Holy Spirit!

Quote
But what about obeying the command of Jesus? This should stop all argument dead in it's tracks. What do you say? (posted by asaph Oct 24, 03 11:09:15 AM) October

Whats your point?  This command was given privately to the (11) Apostles (Mat 28:16, Mk 16:11, not to individuals, no one baptized himself, nor do believers baptize .
And Jesus qualified this point by making it plain those who believe are saved, making it clear that those who believe not, and are water baptized are damned..
The object of one faith is clear when we begin speaking of it.

Clearly, water baptism, is not what produces the Hoily Spirit in individuals who believe HIM..

Blessings,

Petro
We all know that water does not save us in and of itself
Quote

What??
If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version,  he does not possess the Holy Spirit!

A person can imitate the real thing.

1 John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

asaph
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Petro
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« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2003, 06:05:27 PM »

Quote
We all know that water does not save us in and of itself


What??

If this is true; How is it you claim, unless a person is water baptized he is not saved? Since according to your version, he does not possess the Holy Spirit!

A person can imitate the real thing.

1 John 5
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

asaph

I am glad you see this.

We don't stop here,  though....

We say, that a person can say he, believes, but really doesn't  and gets himself baptized; and deceives himself.

The evidence is in what they say and what they do, and, what are they doing for Jesus sake?

Most that beleieve these doctrines, tend to their own salvation, spending very little time if any sharing the Gospel with others..

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2003, 08:26:14 PM »

Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in something, and a being raised from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if water baptism is in view.
On the other hand, if the Spirit is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently raised from the Spirit. This would imply further that the new convert would not have the Spirit, and therefore, would not belong to the Lord (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6). This conclusion obviously is wrong  thus demonstrating that the element of the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 is not the Holy Spirit. By default, it must be water baptism.


http://www.christiancourier.com/


 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 06:23:48 AM by ollie » Logged

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« Reply #149 on: October 31, 2003, 12:22:06 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I know the following example is rather simple, but I hope it encourages some additional thought on these issues.

For a child of God, new or mature:

Our "old man" was crucified on the cross with HIM.

Our "old man" was buried after the cross with HIM.

Our "new man" arose from the dead with HIM.

Our "new man" lives because HE LIVES.

...........

In Christ,
Tom
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