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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 21873 times)
ollie
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« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2003, 08:14:13 PM »

Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2003, 11:23:50 PM »

Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

ollie,

Do you really believe this verse??   Probably not..because you do not understand it.

This verse, brings out the point we have been making all along and drives home the point, that is that water baptism does not accomplish anything, towards salvation, it is clearly a public declaration of an individual who has believed the Gospel and desires to show obedience towards Jesus commandment and by it is associated with Him..

As has been said before; Jesus, after having been baptized with John's baptism, spoke of another baptism;

Mat 20
22  But Jesus answered and said, ]Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23  And he saith unto them, ]Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

What makes you think, that the physical act of water baptism, is being referred to at verse 27 of Gal 3??

There is absolutely no evidence water baptism is being referred to herein, clearly Paul does not have it in mind, and neither does Jesus at Mk16:16.

We have put forth many other verses which declare this and can be used as proof texts, which you simply have ignored, and unfortunately, taking verses out of context, by assuming and presuming and misquoting  them won't ever make them mean what you desire them to mean.

Col 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Note verses 11 and 12, that this baptism, the one performed without hands which includes circumcision of the heart, puts off the body of sins of the flesh, burys with Him is Baptism, and also raises with him, thruogh FAITH in what God has accomplished, in as much as God by His Spirit has raised Him from the dead. This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote Gal 3:26-27.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life (eternal life) to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:11)


Quote
Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Again, Paul does not mention water baptism at all, what makes you think he is speaking of water baptism??  Or are you assuming it..?

Can you explain this discrepency??

Remember Paul is also the author of the same verse in Colosians 2:12.

Quote
Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Though some may teach these were baptized in water what makes you think this to be true??  

There is no evidence they were baptized in water at this verse, what makes you think the Apostles could not have  baptized them by the laying on of hands as Peter and John did to them at Samaria  at (Acts 8:12-17), in fact this day had been prophecied to by Jesus himself, when he said;

Acts 1
4  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Clearly, what happened on the day of Pentecost, is exactly what occurred when Peter preached Jesus unto Cornelious's, his household and friends;  The Holy Spirit fell upon them and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by the question;

What must we do??

Unbelievers (unless drawn by the Father) never ask such a question, in fact you should have 1 Cor 2:14, memorized already from the many times it has been quoted herein..

You need to see, the verses you have put forth, prove nothing towards strengthing your argument,....that;

water Baptism saves noone, but,..........

Baptism with the Holy Spirit does......

Blesings,

Petro
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« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2003, 11:33:30 PM »

ollie,

Recapping what I have just said;Gal 3:27 in the context of ;

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mk 16:16)

Makes it clear that water baptism is not in view, but Baptism with the Holy Ghost IS.

You could be unraveling your bird nest on that fishing line, instead of wasting your time, trying to teach something not found in scripture..in the end you yourself will be blessed..

Blessings

Petro
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« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2003, 03:57:18 AM »

Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Ollie, NO WATER HERE:

 Galatians 3:26.  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ollie, NO WATER HERE:

Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ollie, THIS IS TO ISRAEL:

Acts 2:38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
Ollie,You should READ all of Acts Chapter two.

Brother Love Smiley

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« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2003, 11:09:15 AM »

Just a thought. Could it be that, standing alone, water baptism has no significance. But when connected to faith in the operation of God it has great significance.
Let's take an example of Jesus and a healing He did in the life of a blind man. The sign or miracle is recorded in John chapter 9.

Joh 9:6  When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7  And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.


Note that Jesus used an unorthodox method of healing. He used spit and dirt and placed it in the man's eyes. Then Jesus gives a command: Go, wash in the pool of Siloam. What to you suppose would have happened had the man reasoned in his heart? "This is utter foolishness! Mud made from spit and washing at the pool can't possibly make me see! Jesus, just wave your hand over me, that will suffice." You and I both know that he would have remained blind. Now, does the spit and the dirt and the water hold any power to heal? No, of course not. Only obedience to the command of Jesus brings salvation. In light of this re-read Mark 16.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Some say that this is utter foolishness, even as Naaman of the OT thought it was stupid to think that dipping in the Jordon River would heal him of leprosy.

We all know that water does not save us in and of itself. But what about obeying the command of Jesus?  This should stop all argument dead in it's tracks. What do you say?

asaph
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« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2003, 01:49:48 PM »

asaph,

From this passage of scripture it is clear this man, did not have faith in Jesus.

Yet, it was Jesus who gave him sight, to see; so, his faith was only in what he trusted, nevertheless he obeyed and went and washed.

Jesus who annointed Him with clay of spittle commanded him to go and wash, and it is clear Jesus did it to manifest the WORK OF GOD

What do you suppose this work of God is?

Isn't it giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf?

Washing was an ordinace instituted by the hand of Moses to the Nation, this man who had been born blind new the significance of this law, and he trusted in it, this is why he went and washed.

No amount of washing while trusting in the Law of Moses could ever have given this man who was born blind, sight.

But if God chooses to give sight to anyone it is of His good pleasure not  because of anything man does.
 
We are speaking of the belief in God that saves the soul, no man can believe to the saving of the soul unless God gives Him Faith to believe HIM, this is the faith that saves.

Clearly this mans eyes were opened, that he might see and believe in the Son of God.  (Jhn 9:35-38)


Now, with regard to your post "which comes first" can you honestly state this man was saved first, so that he could see and believe in Jesus?

Clearly, he didn't even know who Jesus was.

It is only when men place faith in Jesus that they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, He must be the object of FAITH, which is given by GRACE and this is the real Baptism that saves,  Water Baptism in every case except when Jesus was made manifest to Israel came afterward.

Pedtro
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« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2003, 01:58:47 PM »


Jesus gave sight to this blind man to manifest the "the work of God" in him.  Jhn 9:3

And the Work of God is;

To believe in Him, whom He has sent  Jhn 6:29

If one does not believe in Him, no amount of water baptisms, will save him.

Petro
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« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2003, 02:02:21 PM »

The doctrine of Baptism is a mystery known, by them who possess the Spirit of God because it is given to us to know these things..this is why we share them boldly with you of the things we understand, that your faith might be strengthened

Blessings
Petro
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asaph
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« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2003, 02:15:08 PM »

Petro You Said-
Now, with regard to your post "which comes first" can you honestly state this man was saved first, so that he could see and believe in Jesus?
I think you are refering to my statement:

Now, does the spit and the dirt and the water hold any power to heal? No, of course not. Only obedience to the command of Jesus brings salvation. In light of this re-read Mark 16.
I was was using the term salvation in the sense of deliverance from blindness in this man's case, not the saving of his soul. The man was saved from blindness because he trusted and obeyed the words of Jesus. All I am saying is that in light of this principle of receiving through faith and obedience, one receives salvation the same way.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Now which baptism is he refering to? I think Jesus is referring to water baptism as he states in Mat. 28.

 Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This is obviously water baptism here. Why should it be any different in Mark 16.

asaph

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Petro
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« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2003, 06:14:15 PM »

asaph

When Paul addressed the Corinthians , who were divided and having contentions over who they belonged to,  because of being baptized in water, Paul rebuked them saying;
 
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any          other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:  not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect........(1 Cor 1:13-17)

Now,  I hope,  you find this statement interesting, that Paul should say this, since at Mat 28:18-19, Jesus while speaking to the eleven commands  them to baptize those who believe according to Mark's Gospel. (Mk 16:16)

Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles, while Peter to the Jews.

And although Paul did batpize some, he rejects the notion that this same water baptism did anything to any of them whom he baptized, evidenced by his words;

1 Cor 1
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Which brings us to this verse 17,  where he explains that he, was not called to baptize but preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

He then goes on to make clear, what is the problem with this contention is (one of being baptized with water), in fact, he calls it the wisdom of this world, which makes the cross of christ foolishness, and I am afraid that this is what this doctrine of water baptism has become.

22  .... the Jews require a sign while the greek seek after wisdom..
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

When I came unto you....he goes on to say;

1 Cor 2
1  ................................came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The Baptism of Jesus was His Crucifixation  Death and Resurrection, this is what He spoke of, when He said to His disciples;  


Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:


No way was He referring to water baptism.  And neither was Paul, note;

9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He said to him;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus asked; How can a man be born when he is old?  

Jesus answered;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now lets us compare spiritual with spiritual;

You would say, Jesus was speaking of physical water herein at Mat 28:19; and we say;....... no

Jesus is not speaking of physical water at all, but, He is speaking of spiritual water, of which is was prophecied by Ezekiel;

Eze 36
22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This promise was made to the house of Israel of which household all who belong to Christ are, remembering that at one time, we gentiles were;

Eph2
12  ......aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Israel the nation has yet to have their sins washed away, with this pure water which Ezekiel speaks of.
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« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2003, 06:17:38 PM »

In fairness, let me stop right here;

And give you a chance to explain, what the clean water, is being spoken of herein means;

According to the Word, the clean water at Eze 36:25, could be translated "pure water", where is this to be found on this earth.?

The word clean as given in Eze 36:25, in the Hebrew-English version is #2889 tahowr pronounced taw-hore' taken from #2891 pure (in a phys. chem. ceremonial or moral sense) :-----translated as;  clean fair, pure (-ness)

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2003, 01:20:35 PM »

When we put stock in misunderstood passages, we run the great risk of placing our eternity on our actions.  Must we be baptized to be saved?  Absolutely not.  If so, then God wasted His time by teaching His people, and His children what the price of our salvation was, when all He had to do was dunk, sprinkle, spritz, or splash people
On this we can agree. Salvation is not based on anything we do.
I would add to this statement when we interpret scripture out of our own minds we run a great risk of misunderstanding God.
We tend to rely an awful lot on dictionaries, concordances, and the teaching of other men.
If we compare scripture with scripture, then we can begin to search out Gods meaning.
For instance one of the reasons the NIV translators put more stock in the texts they used was because of these verses in Matthew:

Matthew 17:18  And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 17:19  Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Matthew 17:20  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Matthew 17:21  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

The NIV translators argue that the 4th century texts were more accurate than the 5th century ones that were used for the KJV is because of this verse about fasting found in Matthew 17:21.
They rationalized what does going without food have to do with casting out demons?
Their claim is that Gnostics added this to the bible.
What they didnít understand is, fasting is parabolic language.
My opinion is that the reason the older texts were in such good condition is because they werenít used. They werenít used because they were not as accurate. The scribe copying these verses probably felt that it didnít make sense to him either. So he left it out.
The solution to Matthew 17:21 is found in Isaiah 58:1-7.

Isaiah 58:5  Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isaiah 58:6  Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.
When we understand this is parabolic language then we can see that this demon was cast out by the power of the gospel.
Going without food is a legitimate definition of fasting, but this is not what God had in mind.
Man has defined baptizo as immersion. Can you support your definition, immersion, with scripture?
God says He will SPRINKLE clean water upon us. Can you find ANY scripture that says He will immerse us?

Ezekiel 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezekiel 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is talking about our salvation. We are born again when God gives us a new heart. Spiritually we are dead. Our spirit is dead, God gives us a new spirit, a resurrected spiritual body. We still have a physical body that is unsaved until the Lords return, but we have a new spirit. God does it by the washing of the word. It is the gospel, not H2o, that saves us. Water, like fasting, is parabolic language for the gospel. And yes I can support that with scripture. (Genesis 2:10, Genesis 16:7, Genesis 29:8, Exodus 4:9, Exodus 17:6, Numbers 20:11, 1 Samuel 30:12, 2 Samuel 23:15, Proverbs 25:21, Matthew 14:28-29, Luke 16:24, John 4:13-15, John 5:4-9, John 7:38, Ephesians 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 2 Peter 2:17, Revelation 22:17)
When man baptizes in water it is a sign that we are under the hearing of the gospel. While every one that is saved is under the hearing of the gospel, not everyone that is under the hearing of the gospel is saved.
Scripture supports sprinkling, and it supports water = gospel.
You have presented an interesting picture of the temple, it is one interpretation.
You have not given any scriptural support for your definition.
The candlestick does not represent Christ.
The flame at the top of the candlestick does. He is the light of the world.
The candlestick represents the church.

Revelation 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Christ is the head of the church. The flame at the top.
The blood was always a picture of the blood of Christ. We agree that we are washed clean in the blood of the lamb. Man was never saved by the blood of animals.
Quote
Here's the problem - that sacrifice, though acceptable to God, had to be performed each year to cover that sin.
Hebrews 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Even in the OT it was known animal sacrifice did not save. Key verses from Psalm 51:

Psalms 51:2  Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psalms 51:6  Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalms 51:11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psalms 51:12  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psalms 51:16  For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psalms 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Sacrifices were an act of obedience, just as baptism is. The sacrifices, like water baptism, did not save.

Psalms 51:19  Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The veil of the temple was destroyed at the cross. Man is no longer separated from God. The physical temple was a picture of the body of believers. It will never be rebuilt, as some claim. Because now we have a temple built upon believers, a temple no man can destroy.

1 Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ephesians 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I am sorry it took me so long to reply to this, Iíve been working 75 miles from home. It has been a long week of commuting. Nice to sleep in my own bed though, usually I motel it.
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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« Reply #132 on: October 30, 2003, 12:47:13 AM »

ollie,


As I was reading scripture this afternoon, I saw this verse, which reminded me of your question, concerning them of the Nation of Israel, that are in unbelief concerning Jesus, and reject HIM as the Messiah , yet, know and understand the OT, humanly speaking.

Ollie reply #5 at

  http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1616

We believe that when one believes Gods Words spoken by Jesus, God the Spirit, removes the veil from the heart, in effect this is what has happened to all them, that have come to FAITH in HIM.

Concerning the Apostles, who waqlked with Jesus three years and were present and saw, the miracles performed in the Fathers name, that He might manifest the Wordk of God by them.

Yet;

Jhn 20
9  For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

This is speaking of the OT, scriptures, this is a prophecy of David;

Psa 16
10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11  Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Concerning himself, and and all becuase of FAITH in Gods Word concerning Jesus the Messiah;

John was the first one to understand and come to belief on Jesus; Jhn 20:8.

And Peter and the others followed, then Thomas, and finally Saul of Tarsus, while on the road to Damascus.

They understood not, because it had not been revealed to them, since it is clear Jesus plainly spoke of His death and resurrection to them.

Mat 17
22  And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again.

How much clearer could Jesus, make this known to them.

And this is also, how He said it;

Mat 20
22  But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

The cup, signified His shed blood and by it His death, and His ressurection, since He said:

Mat 26
29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


Then notice How, Peter remembered, what Jesus said; when Cornelius and his household began speaking in tongues at Acts 10:45-46;

45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

He testifies to this in the next chapter, what he remmebered;

Acts 11
15  And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

From verse 45, at Acts 10, it is clear the gift of the Holy Spirit, was poured out to Cornelius and his household when they heard the preaching of the Gosple of God, for it is by the foolishness of preaching of the Gosple, that God saves people, and not by the act of water baptism

Clearly the Baptism which produces the Holy Spirit is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, given to them that obey God;

God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe these are two things the natural man is unable to do, but he can trust and desire to obey, God sees the heart, and those who are saved, are saved because they desire to do Gods will, while in sin.

Paul puts it this way;

Acts 5
29  .............We ought to obey God rather than men.
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


God Bless,

Petro
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« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2003, 01:36:56 AM »

L.C.,

Sorry for taking so long to reply!  Let me ask you a question - have you ever taken Greek?  I only ask because every Greek lexicon I have ever come across has defined the word baptizo as "to immerse" or "to wash thoroughly."  I have taken 1 and 1/2 years of N.T. Greek in Bible College, and it is upon this training that I rely in this matter.  Now, as to why I'm dogmatic?  I'm Baptist!  We dunk!   Grin

As for the concept of washing...Asaph,

You posted the following verse:

Quote
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Amen!  However, it is this transliteration that causes the problem.  We develope a concept of a physical act of obedience that I believe is taught, not for salvific grace, but in light of that grace - water baptism.  But what of the secondary meaning of baptizo?  "To wash thoroughly."  The verse would then read...

Quote
"He that believes and is washed shall be saved."

Washed with what?  Is it water that makes us "whiter than snow?"  I contest that it is the very blood of Christ.  Consider this:

Quote
Have mercy on me, O God,
   according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
   blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
   and cleanse me from my sin!

For I know my transgressions,
   and my sin is ever before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
   and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
   and blameless in your judgment.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
   and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
   and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
   wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


Psalm 51:1-7

I understand that this passage refers to being washed...but notice verse 7?  "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."  This is not a reference to water baptism in any way.  Rather, it is pointing back to the Old Testament Tabernacle Day of Atonement sacrifice.  The High Priest would take the blood of the sacrificed goat in a bowl, and enter the Holy of Holies, where he would dip a hyssop branch into the blood, and splatter the Mercy Seat atop the Ark of the Covenant seven times.  One time, each year for the sins of the nation - the chosen of God.  It is the blood that cleanses us, pictured first in the blood of animal sacrifice which covered our sin before God, and perfected next in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which removes our sin.
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
asaph
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« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2003, 03:51:10 AM »

asaph

When Paul addressed the Corinthians , who were divided and having contentions over who they belonged to,  because of being baptized in water, Paul rebuked them saying;
 
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any          other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:  not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect........(1 Cor 1:13-17)

Now,  I hope,  you find this statement interesting, that Paul should say this, since at Mat 28:18-19, Jesus while speaking to the eleven commands  them to baptize those who believe according to Mark's Gospel. (Mk 16:16)

Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles, while Peter to the Jews.

And although Paul did batpize some, he rejects the notion that this same water baptism did anything to any of them whom he baptized, evidenced by his words;

1 Cor 1
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Which brings us to this verse 17,  where he explains that he, was not called to baptize but preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

He then goes on to make clear, what is the problem with this contention is (one of being baptized with water), in fact, he calls it the wisdom of this world, which makes the cross of christ foolishness, and I am afraid that this is what this doctrine of water baptism has become.

22  .... the Jews require a sign while the greek seek after wisdom..
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

When I came unto you....he goes on to say;

1 Cor 2
1  ................................came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The Baptism of Jesus was His Crucifixation  Death and Resurrection, this is what He spoke of, when He said to His disciples;  


Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:


No way was He referring to water baptism.  And neither was Paul, note;

9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He said to him;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus asked; How can a man be born when he is old?  

Jesus answered;

I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now lets us compare spiritual with spiritual;

You would say, Jesus was speaking of physical water herein at Mat 28:19; and we say;....... no

Jesus is not speaking of physical water at all, but, He is speaking of spiritual water, of which is was prophecied by Ezekiel;

Eze 36
22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This promise was made to the house of Israel of which household all who belong to Christ are, remembering that at one time, we gentiles were;

Eph2
12  ......aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Israel the nation has yet to have their sins washed away, with this pure water which Ezekiel speaks of.

Petro,
You do make a strong case. However the Corinthians were all baptized by someone in water. Listen:

13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The bold type emphatically says they were all baptized. The subject is obviously water baptism. If your theory is correct then Paul would have had many opportinities to plainly say that water baptism was not needed at all. But where is this explicitly stated? It's not.

asaph
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