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Author Topic: Is Water Baptism needed for Salvation? The Bible says no.  (Read 20462 times)
Petro
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« Reply #150 on: October 31, 2003, 03:39:10 AM »

Quote
Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in something, and a being raised from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if water baptism is in view.


ollie,

Sigh!!

Before you even analyse the verses, you already want the passages to be speaking of water baptism.
 
Your analyses of scripture leaves little to be desired.

All one has to do is read scripture in the lite of scripture.

The Apostle is asking you a question?

Rom 6
3 Don't you know, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 
John's baptism was for the remission of sin.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a Baptism into Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Col 2, doesn't even come close to speaking of water baptism, at all. But, it does speak of a spiritual BAPTISM, performed by God the Holy Spirit, and on this one things is what our faith rests on, not on somehting performed with human hands.

I don't know about you, but I have been BAPTIZED by ONE BAPTISM (His death, burial and ressurection) into the ONE Body of Christ, by ONE Spirit.  

ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Do you know this, to be true.??

Then you follow your line of reasoning by stating;

Quote
On the other hand, if the Spirit is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently raised from the Spirit.

Assumptions and presumptions, this is all there is, in your statements, its like you are not even trying to understand scripture.

Why even post them?

But I say keep working at it, one thing we can be sure of;

The Word of God powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

God Bless,

Petro



« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 03:45:36 AM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2003, 04:13:16 AM »

Quote
Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in something, and a being raised from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if water baptism is in view.


ollie,

Sigh!!

Before you even analyse the verses, you already want the passages to be speaking of water baptism.
 
Your analyses of scripture leaves little to be desired.

All one has to do is read scripture in the lite of scripture.

The Apostle is asking you a question?

Rom 6
3 Don't you know, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 
John's baptism was for the remission of sin.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a Baptism into Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Col 2, doesn't even come close to speaking of water baptism, at all. But, it does speak of a spiritual BAPTISM, performed by God the Holy Spirit, and on this one things is what our faith rests on, not on somehting performed with human hands.

I don't know about you, but I have been BAPTIZED by ONE BAPTISM (His death, burial and ressurection) into the ONE Body of Christ, by ONE Spirit.  

ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Do you know this, to be true.??

Then you follow your line of reasoning by stating;

Quote
On the other hand, if the Spirit is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently raised from the Spirit.

Assumptions and presumptions, this is all there is, in your statements, its like you are not even trying to understand scripture.

Why even post them?

But I say keep working at it, one thing we can be sure of;

The Word of God powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

God Bless,

Petro





Thats some Good teaching Petro


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« Reply #152 on: October 31, 2003, 05:46:53 AM »

The words baptism or baptized are employed in several different senses in the New Testament.

Sometimes baptism refers to the overwhelming power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) which was bestowed upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4), and which later was granted to the household of Cornelius in order to demonstrate divine approval of God's acceptance of the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-47; 11:15-17).

Usually, however, when the term baptized is employed, the reference is to a water ritual associated with the remission of sins  whether during John the Baptizer's ministry (Mark 1:4), or later in the Christian age (Acts 2:38). On the day of Pentecost, there were thus two baptisms one upon the apostles (2:4), Holy Spirit baptism and another in water for penitent believers (2:38, 41).

It appears strange to some, therefore, that Ephesians 4:5 stresses the fact that there is but one baptism. What is the one baptism? Spirit baptism, or water baptism?

It is clearly water baptism for the following reasons:


The baptism of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) was water baptism  as evidenced by the fact that it had a human administrator. It was to last till the end of the world. Consequently, Holy Spirit baptism is eliminated.

Bptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning. There is nothing in this passage to indicate a figurative usage.

This passage is a strong argument against Holy Spirit baptism today. Underline one baptism, and jot this note: The age-lasting baptism of Matthew 28:19. No Holy Spirit baptism today.


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« Reply #153 on: October 31, 2003, 10:06:24 AM »

I BELIEVE

I believe that the entire Bible is inspired of God, is without error and is of plenary authority (II Tim. 3:16; II Peter 1:21).
We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6).
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and is true God and man (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:3,4; Phil. 2:6-9).
I believe that man is saved by grace through faith. Man is depraved, utterly sinful and his efforts, regardless of how well intended, cannot earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift made available by the complete payment for sin through Christ's death on the cross (Romans 3:9-12; 3:24-28; 4:1-8; I Cor. 1:18-31; Eph. 2:8,9).
I believe in the eternal security of the believer (Romans 8:1; 8:29-34; 8:38,39; Eph. 1:13,14; Phil. 1:6).
We believe that the church of this dispensation is the Body of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23; 3:1-6) which is to be distinguished from the prophesied, earthly kingdom of Christ. The historical manifestation of the Body of Christ began with the Apostle Paul before he wrote his first epistle (I Thess. 2:14-16 cf. Acts 13:45,46; Phil. 1:5, 6; cf. Acts 16; I Cor. 12:13, 27 cf. Acts 18).
I believe the mission and commission of the Body of Christ is to proclaim the message of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:14-21) and to preach Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:8,9). The "gospel of the grace of God" is referred to as "my gospel" by the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 2:16; 16:25). It is this gospel with which we are entrusted today (I Thess. 2:4).
I acknowledge that the above articles of faith do not exhaust the content of our faith which is the entire Word of God. However, I believe this list distinguishes some basic truths which are commonly disregarded today.

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« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2003, 10:14:00 AM »

What is your definition of faith?
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« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2003, 11:33:49 AM »

The words baptism or baptized are employed in several different senses in the New Testament.

Sometimes baptism refers to the overwhelming power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) which was bestowed upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4),


Sometimes??

It is clear from both at Acts 1:5, water baptism is differentiated from Baptism with the Holy Spirit, anybody can see, it plainly is not the same thing.

As for Acts 2:4, from the imediate previous verses; it is plain it is an..................;

1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

...........out of earth experience, has nothing to do with water, and it is a filling, fulfilling the prophecy Jesus spoke at John 14:16-18;

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

You are completely missing the teaching of the significance of day of Pentecost.

This is in fulfillment of the OT, promise, of God;

Eze 36
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

You are allowing yourself to be seduced, by believing the things (opinions and commentaries) you read by other men.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is accomplished by FAITH in God, and not triggered by water baptism, one must BELIEVE in order to be water baptized, otherwise, water baptism without believing GOD, is useless.

Jesus warned his disciples;

Mat 24
4   Let no man decieved you.

I am afraid you have allowed yourself to be deceived.

1 Jhn 2
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


If you need and trust in mans opinions and commentarials to teach you, it is evidence you may not possess the Holy Spirit, I say examine yourself, in the lite of the Word of God.

Quote
and which later was granted to the household of Cornelius in order to demonstrate divine approval of God's acceptance of the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-47; 11:15-17).[/b]

As I posted before in answer to asaph, when Cornelius and his household were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and did magnify God. (Acts 10:46)

Peter and the 6 did not ask; What did they say, can anyone interpret??  The scriptures are clear, they heard and where all amazed;

45  .................,because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They knew that these had received the Holy Spirit because they glorified and magnified Jesus their Lord and God.

Paul explains this;

1 Cor 12
3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Have you ever read this verse before??  Does it mean anything to you??



Quote
Usually, however, when the term baptized is employed, the reference is to a water ritual associated with the remission of sins  whether during John the Baptizer's ministry (Mark 1:4), or later in the Christian age (Acts 2:38). On the day of Pentecost, there were thus two baptisms one upon the apostles (2:4), Holy Spirit baptism and another in water for penitent believers (2:38, 41).

It appears strange to some, therefore, that Ephesians 4:5 stresses the fact that there is but one baptism. What is the one baptism? Spirit baptism, or water baptism?

It is clearly water baptism for the following reasons:


The baptism of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) was water baptism  as evidenced by the fact that it had a human administrator. It was to last till the end of the world. Consequently, Holy Spirit baptism is eliminated.

Bptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning. There is nothing in this passage to indicate a figurative usage.

This passage is a strong argument against Holy Spirit baptism today. Underline one baptism, and jot this note: The age-lasting baptism of Matthew 28:19. No Holy Spirit baptism today.


http://www.christiancourier.com/

No Holy Spirit baptism today??

This is extreme, and borders on heresy, I am surprised any Christian would even consider such a teaching, when they are supposed have Gods Spirit and His written word, which can teach and lead them.

It is absolutely, absurd...

There is only one human administrator today who claims authority to wtaer baptize people with the holy spirit; and that is the Catholic pope;

I suppose you agree with those who follow him..


Petro




Quote
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 11:49:05 AM by Petro » Logged

Petro
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« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2003, 11:40:01 AM »

ollie,

You asked about where doies it say Israel, shall return to the land given to their fathers on another thread. (attacks in Israe started by jabez)

When you are studying this, you may consider;

Eze 36:26-28.

But don't jump to conclusions, that this is speaking totally to Israel the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ was never given or promised land on this earth.

But the nation was.

Blessings,

Petro


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« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2003, 12:51:29 PM »

ollie,

You asked about where doies it say Israel, shall return to the land given to their fathers on another thread. (attacks in Israe started by jabez)

When you are studying this, you may consider;

Eze 36:26-28.

But don't jump to conclusions, that this is speaking totally to Israel the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ was never given or promised land on this earth.

But the nation was.

Blessings,

Petro




Some Good teaching Petro, Amen
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« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2003, 01:04:00 PM »

ollie,

You asked about where doies it say Israel, shall return to the land given to their fathers on another thread. (attacks in Israe started by jabez)

When you are studying this, you may consider;

Eze 36:26-28.

But don't jump to conclusions, that this is speaking totally to Israel the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ was never given or promised land on this earth.

But the nation was.

Blessings,

Petro



Eph 2
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 3
5   Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Mat 5
5   Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Rev 21
7   He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

There is a lot of mention about inheritance. Do you suppose that this would include soil?

asaph
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« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2003, 06:27:11 PM »

ollie,

You asked about where doies it say Israel, shall return to the land given to their fathers on another thread. (attacks in Israe started by jabez)

When you are studying this, you may consider;

Eze 36:26-28.

But don't jump to conclusions, that this is speaking totally to Israel the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ was never given or promised land on this earth.

But the nation was.

Blessings,

Petro



Eph 2
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 3
5   Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Mat 5
5   Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Rev 21
7   He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

There is a lot of mention about inheritance. Do you suppose that this would include soil?

asaph

God is making a new body of two peoples, the gentiles and jews, these are the ones who shall inherit all things, because of Jesus who is heir of all things and we are co heirs with HIM.

But the promise is a new heaven and a new earth, this are the things Abraham, Issac and Jacob looked for.

Heb 11
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Concerning Abraham;

9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Ezekiel 36, speaks of a time when the natural offspring of Jacob will be dealt with by God, and will be Saved by HIM in the latter days, and shall dwell safely in their own land, even those, who make up Spiritual Israel will be there.  It will be in that period of time known as Jacobs troubles in the DAY of THE LORD, a literal 1000 year reign of Messiah on the earth.

See, how being off on one point, places you off on several doctrines taught by scripture.

It is called the cumulative error factor.


Blessings,

Petro
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 10:45:15 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #160 on: November 01, 2003, 02:19:40 AM »

On the part of petro's and all Gracers involved, I agree with wholly.  But in the otherside, the verses like Rom 6, Acts 2, amd mark 16 is being used over and over again despite being adressed.  Notice that they (Gracers) did not go to other verses but answered the baptism verses by itself.  And when the verses has been answered (by gracers), little has been done (by the other side) to correct the explinations.  I think clearly, the battle is already won.

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« Reply #161 on: November 01, 2003, 04:39:23 AM »

See, how being off on one point, places you off on several doctrines taught by scripture. Petro
Really?

Hey Petro,
The meek will still inherit the Earth along with the commonwealth of Israel. Believest thou this or wilt thou find thyself surprised when in happens.

I wonder if the people of Israel today are descended from Abe. They cannot be the fulfilment of prophecy indicating a return to the land because they are in the land in unbelief. Listen to Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30
1   And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2   And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3   That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Moses said that they must turn to the Lord before they return to the Land. So the so called Jews who are there today cannot be the fulfillment of this prophecy. They are in unbelief. Without us this promise will not happen. The church needs to seek out, witness to, and pray for those Jews in the lands where they have been scrattered so that they will get saved and return to the promised land in belief. We need to pray that many Christian Jews will return to Godless Israel and have a real impact on the unbelievers there. Already there are a few there who are true Jews. Pray for them.

Sorry about the subject change.

Why do you think that Baptism has to be an either or situation? Both water and Spiritual baptism agree, they are one in agreement. This does not contradict the one baptism statement in Eph. 4 anymore than the Trinity contradicts the oneness of God.

1John 5
8   And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Spirit and the water and the blood agree in one. I can't say it any better than that.

 He, Jesus Christ, came as the Son of God that we might be born of God and have the divine life (John 10:10; 20:31). It is in His Son that God gives us eternal life (vv. 11-13). Jesus, the man of Nazareth, was attested to be the Son of God by the water He went through in His baptism (Matt. 3:16-17; John 1:31), by the blood He shed on the cross (John 19:31-35; Matt. 27:50-54), and also by the Spirit He gave not by measure (John 1:32-34; 3:34). By these three God has testified that Jesus is His Son given to us (vv. 7-10), that in Him we may receive His eternal life by believing into His name (vv. 11-13; John 3:16, 36; 20:31). The water of baptism terminates people of the old creation by burying them; the blood shed on the cross redeems those whom God has chosen from among the old creation; and the Spirit, who is the truth, the reality in life (Rom. 8:2), germinates those whom God has redeemed out of the old creation, by regenerating them with the divine life. Thus they are born of God and become His children (John 3:5, 15; 1:12-13) and live a life that practices the truth (1:6), the will of God (2:17), the righteousness of God (2:29), and the love of God (3:10-11) for His expression.

asaph


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« Reply #162 on: November 01, 2003, 11:14:41 PM »

Quote
asaph's reply at #161

See, how being off on one point, places you off on several doctrines taught by scripture. Petro
Really?

Hey Petro,

The meek will still inherit the Earth along with the commonwealth of Israel. Believest thou this or wilt thou find thyself surprised when in happens.

I wonder if the people of Israel today are descended from Abe. They cannot be the fulfilment of prophecy indicating a return to the land because they are in the land in unbelief. Listen to Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Moses said that they must turn to the Lord before they return to the Land. So the so called Jews who are there today cannot be the fulfillment of this prophecy. They are in unbelief. Without us this promise will not happen. The church needs to seek out, witness to, and pray for those Jews in the lands where they have been scrattered so that they will get saved and return to the promised land in belief. We need to pray that many Christian Jews will return to Godless Israel and have a real impact on the unbelievers there. Already there are a few there who are true Jews. Pray for them.




asaph,

The whole book of Deutoromy does not consist of one chapter.

I gave you the passage of scripture which is the end of the matter for the nation of Israel concerning the word of promise that God gave the nation.

You must read the entire book of Duetoromy begining at

Chap1
1  These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
2  (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3  And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

If you doubt that this account written in the Book of Deutoromy was not recounted to the Nation of Israel in one day then I can understand why you are so confused about this matter, consider how the passage ends;

Deut 30
18  I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20  That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
31:1  And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.

All God requires of His nation is that they, turn from their wicked ways to observe His Commandments which He commanded Moses to give them at, Mt Horeb (Sinai) this was the Covenant He made with them at Horeb (Deut 5:1-4) and then Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments , not once does God require them to return to the Levitical Sacrificial Mosaic sytem of Worship, after they break the covenant, and the blessings and curses comne upon them.

And please note at Deut 30:1, that it is not prefaced by the requirement that they be saved (as you seem to presume) but that they simply recall the covenant establshed with the blessings and the curses, and to simply return (Deut 30:2) (have a desire) to obey God's voice according to all that HE commanded in the day HE made the covenant with them.  This is reiterated forty times, in this book.

That then the LORD thy God will turn their captivity, and have compassion upon them, and will return and gather them from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thm. (parapharsed) (Deut 30:3)

Their assembling in the land according to Zecharaiah is for the purpose of bringing them through the fire (making them a gazing stock for the nations, as HE deals with there sin) and purges them of their Sin.(Mal 3:1-12, Zec 13:8-9)

Ezekiel says;

Eze 39
25  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26  After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Note verse 28, "Then shall they know that I am the Lord..."

Amos 9
14  And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Your attention is invited to verses 11-14, in the Hebrew-English version, the reading is as follows for verse 14;

14  I will restore My people Israel. They shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them. .............

And if you still think, it is after they are saved, Zechariah disagrees with you..

Zec 12
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7  The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8  In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I encourage you to read the entire Book of Deutroromy, this will edify you and make it clear to you.

I will answer the other portion of your post, later........................

Petro
« Last Edit: November 01, 2003, 11:21:23 PM by Petro » Logged

Reba
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« Reply #163 on: November 02, 2003, 12:02:11 AM »

Josh 21:43-45
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV
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Petro
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« Reply #164 on: November 02, 2003, 01:35:07 AM »

Quote
asaph's reply #161
Why do you think that Baptism has to be an either or situation? Both water and Spiritual baptism agree, they are one in agreement. This does not contradict the one baptism statement in Eph. 4 anymore than the Trinity contradicts the oneness of God.

1John 5
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Spirit and the water and the blood agree in one. I can't say it any better than that.

You don't know what your talking about..
 
It is well known among scholars, that these verses are not found in the earlier manuscripts, at best they appear in the margins of the latin vulgate around the 16th century. (I knew there was a reason not to trust the Latin version).

So this verse proves nothing, concerning the point you are trying to make. Perhaps this may help you.

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/25-0004.htm

"The italicized section [in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; and there are three witnesses on the earth] is found only in late manuscripts." (Amplified note)

"Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [add] testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the." (NIV note)

"The modern eclectic, or 'critical,' text of the Greek New Testament and the Majority Text omit the words from in heaven [v. 7] through on earth [v. 8]. Only 4 or 5 very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek." (NKJV note)

"The texts read, 'the Spirit, and the water', and & c., omitting all the words from 'in heaven' to 'in earth' [v. 8] inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text." (Bullinger note)

"It is generally agreed that this verse [1 John 5:7, KJV] has no manuscript authority and has been inserted." (Scofield note)


For you to even make such a claim, that this water is refering water baptism which makes one born of God, is a stretch of your imagination. What else can be said??

John opens this passage of scripture by writing this;

1 Jhn 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:.........

and closes;

13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now in fairness to the word, lets examine what these scribes wanted inserted into this passage of scripture.

The same Apostle John does write of the witness of the Spirit, the Blood and the Water, testifying of the truth and agreeing one with the other.

And physical water baptism is nowhere to be found.

He tells us, at that Jesus himself spoke these words;

Jhn 15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27  And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John records the words of John the Baptist, who  himself bares witness;

Jhn 1
28  These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35  Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

And at;

Jhn 19, the Apostles bares witness;
30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32  Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33  But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35  And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36  For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37  And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

John the beloved apostle was there at the foot of the cross, the same day these things happened.

and again writes;

Jhn 19
35  And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. ( NKJ)


If we receive the witness of men, [the testimony of the blood and water from the Apostle John] the witness of God [the testimony of the Holy Spirit] is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. (1 Jhn 5:9 NKJ)

The water and the blood, the testimony of men, plus the witness of the Spirit, that coming from the Holy Spirit, establishes the truth- Jesus is the Christ and believing on Him gives eternal life.

The witness of God is the testimony of the Holy Spirit within us that we know that Christ is the Son of the Living God. This witness is in us as the Holy Spirit bears witness in our conscience. (Rom 8:16; 9:1)

1 Jhn 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself...............( NKJ)

Deut 19
15.........at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. ( KJV)

The witnesses of the Spirit, the water and the blood all agree in one.

So what is the conclusion, of what the Apsotle John has testified concerning the Spirit, Blood and the Water.

1. By the witness of man, the Apostle John seeing and testifying of the blood and water coming out of the side, that Jesus was the one they pierced and He was in fact the Messiah, and only our hope of salvation.

2. By the witness of the Holy Spirit, as He witnesses in our hearts, we have received the witness of God in us.

3. By two or three witnesses, we have an established truth.

The testimony of each and all three agrees in one.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 Jhn 5:11 (NKJ)

As you can see, John did testify concenring these things, but not in the context you have, by adding your version of what you believe to be Gods word, which is nothing other than pretext.

Sorry, but your little shpiel doesn't wash with scripture, and lacks biblical foundation.



Blessings,
Petro
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