Could you pray for me?

[Whitehorse]

Emma, you don't have to understand how demons would be hanging around goth people. But that's exactly what deception is based upon-a lack of understanding it. I'm not saying demonic forces are just attracted, I'm saying the movement is inspired by these forces. As long as you don't believe this, you'll be a willing party.

Second remember, your faith is leaving. So there is something that isn't right. Jesus promised He will never leave you. I can show you one example of deception: Jesus never self-inflicted. In fact...***: THE DEVIL took Jesus to the pinnacle and twisted scripture, telling Jesus to jump off the pinnacle in order to prove His divinity and faith in God. But even though there is a scriptural promise that God's angels would uphold Him, Jesus pointed out the difference between falling and deliberately injuring yourself.*** *This is not to say that Jesus can ever fall, because other scriptures prove His divinity and perfect nature* But Jesus was giving an example to us. If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, any SI is a desecration of that temple of God, whether or not that is your intent. It doesn't matter what your motive is; the devil wants you to desecrate the Lord's temple and he'll do anything to keep you doing it. You have your reasons, but he has his. You can't be a willing party!

But here's the point I especially want to stress: Did Jesus self-inflict? NO. But you mention people do it for that reason- a likeness to Him. Do you see that there is a very subtle deceit here? Jesus *didn't* do it, but someone did suggest to Him the very same thing that you've been tempted with! Only it was by jumping, not cutting. But the principle is the same, *and it was suggested by someone*. That's why I am thinking you're in a spiritual warfare situation. But for your faith to stand, you need to live in obedience and love God's temple more than the need to fulfill the purpose for which it occurs. No one said it would be easy. The key is to find out where the spiritual access is, and even if you don't understand how goth could be involved, ask yourself this: Are these people putting on the mind of Christ? If the answer is no, and it will be, you're accepting something that God doesn't want influencing you. Can you try something: put it aside for one month. If you agree to do this, I will pray for you with intensity during this time. I bet everyone else will, too! See if there is a change. But you also have to be applying scripture and you have to be willing. *There are lots of scriptures! I'll get you a bunch if you want. I can make a booklet for you.* But God only works with you if you're willing. He healed me of my depression, and He can heal you of yours.

Also, you need to understand that there is one objective in all of this: MAKE YOUR FAITH STAND. That's it. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, so be willing to let go of anything that gets in the way. If I can help, email me. I'm here for you.

[Broken]

Hey Whitehorse,

Emma, you don't have to understand how demons would be hanging around goth people. But that's exactly what deception is based upon-a lack of understanding it. I'm not saying demonic forces are just attracted, I'm saying the movement is inspired by these forces.

I'm not sure it can actually be defined as a movement as such. Its just a bunch of people who like reading, listening and watching darker stuff - which is a part of life after all. There are Christian goths too - I'm sure I saw a site once about it.

Second remember, your faith is leaving. So there is something that isn't right. Jesus promised He will never leave you.

I mentioned that I think God may have forsaken me - you see I was reading Hebrews and it does seem to give that impression:

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6 RSV)


I don't think it has anything to do with the people I know, what I watch, read or listen to, but its an issue of faith. This passage in particular seems to say that once you've lost your faith, thats it, you can't go back.

I can show you one example of deception: Jesus never self-inflicted. In fact...***: THE DEVIL took Jesus to the pinnacle and twisted scripture, telling Jesus to jump off the pinnacle in order to prove His divinity and faith in God. But even though there is a scriptural promise that God's angels would uphold Him, Jesus pointed out the difference between falling and deliberately injuring yourself.***

I thought the message of that particular temptation was that you shouldn't test God, shouldn't behave in a silly way expecting God to save you. God'll help you if you need it, but not if you're being stupid to see whether he will.

But here's the point I especially want to stress: Did Jesus self-inflict? NO. But you mention people do it for that reason- a likeness to Him. Do you see that there is a very subtle deceit here? Jesus *didn't* do it, but someone did suggest to Him the very same thing that you've been tempted with! Only it was by jumping, not cutting.

Well, it depends how you look at Jesus. He did, essentially, commit suicide, and wanted all the harm that was done to him before the crucifixion to be done. That is the major likeness SI-ers sometimes see between themselves and Jesus. The other likeness is something they seek out - in an effort to be more like Jesus, to follow him more completely, there are people who flagellate themselves, or who have themselves crucified. Not to my taste, but I can understand why they do it.

And, of course, Jesus' words are a major source of SI in their own right. A feature of major SI is religious preoccupation, and the following, literally, of two of Jesus' sayings:

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.  (Matthew 5:29)

For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)

Not that that justifies it, to me or to doctors, but it is contained in the Bible, some forms of SI, anyway.

The key is to find out where the spiritual access is, and even if you don't understand how goth could be involved, ask yourself this: Are these people putting on the mind of Christ? If the answer is no, and it will be, you're accepting something that God doesn't want influencing you.

What people? There is only me here. The people I know don't share those interests of mine - their reading material is quite different to mine, you wouldn't catch me reading love stories, but thats what they read. I'm the only person I know in real life who regularly reads poetry, too.

Can you try something: put it aside for one month. If you agree to do this, I will pray for you with intensity during this time.

What is it exactly you want me to put aside? Reading? Writing? The net?
As for the SI - as I said before, if I try to stop, get all guilty every time I can't manage it, it gets worse, which is why I've been told not to stress about it, but wait until it gets better of its own accord.

I bet everyone else will, too! See if there is a change. But you also have to be applying scripture and you have to be willing. *There are lots of scriptures! I'll get you a bunch if you want.

Which scriptures did you have in mind?

Also, you need to understand that there is one objective in all of this: MAKE YOUR FAITH STAND. That's it. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, so be willing to let go of anything that gets in the way. If I can help, email me. I'm here for you.

As I understand things, salvation is through consistent faith. Through lasting faith that does not fail, not through constantly apostasising, as that results in damnation. As I understand that passage from Hebrews, once you apostasise for the first time, the first time you lose your faith, you become unable to regain it because you have insulted Christ and become unable to return - basically you get a hardened heart. That, to me, seems like a fairly good explanation for why I've not been able to grasp faith properly - because the scriptures say I never will be able to.

-Emma

[Whitehorse]

Emma, the devil pulls that garbage on *everyone* who comes to the Lord, especially those who are young or new in the faith. Fear not, my friend, there is plenty of hope! I can give you a long list of similar tactics the devil pulls with God's most blessed children. Let's see...that they've committed the unpardonable sin, that they've fallen irrevocably from the faith, that God sends hardship to people He doesn't love when James chapter two tells us otherwise...That's the first thing you have to know. If you weren't so special to God, the devil wouldn't waste a second on you. Not one blessed second. There's a reason he's working so hard on you--think about it. He afflicts *God's* people with all kinds of griefs and then points the finger at God and says, "See? *He* doesn't love you." But a lot of it you can prevent. I'll show you how if you want. See, the devil can't make you do anything, so he has to gain your willingness and he uses discouragement, doubts, and certain types of past abuse to gain your willingness. That's where we have to slam the door in his face.

In actuality God allows the pain for other, unseen reasons, like to put you in a position where you have no other choice than to believe Him simply because He says so. (This is the key to your salvation. You must understand, that is the only genuine faith that will save you. So that's why the devil tempts you by whispering in your ear that God is mean--because the affliction that seems so heavy is actually the portal to everlasting peace and ease, being prepared for you right this minute, Emma, even as we speak! If the devil can convince you God means you harm, you'll reject the faith that comes through suffering that will save you.)

There are other indications that the devil means to take your faith from you. The SI indicates that there is at least in part a felt need to partake in your own salvation. In reality, any, I mean any partaking in your own salvation is putting your faith in something other than Christ and there are stern warnings about it in the Bible. You'll need to turn away from it, because it's an unwitting affront to God's perfect sacrifice and it cannot save. So that's why we're moving you away from that. The devil tells people the SI is a "Christ-likeness": another lie. Jesus paid the price for you, and you are not to try to help Him! That's rejecting His sacrifice. Jesus paid the price so you wouldn't have to, so you can be *free* in CHrist, not self-afflict. It's the devil who is enslaving you to this harshness, pretending it is righteousness. He's taking advantage of your willingness without knowledge to lead you into deceit. But I can see you're fighting for your faith and you're precious to God; you're willing enough to serve God, but that is not of the Lord. The devil is trying to wear you out with false impressions of severity in God. So you see, the devil will try to take advantage even of your good intentions.
First, let's overturn that: 2 Corinthians 7:10. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, *but worldly sorrow brings death.*

So you see, there is a right and wrong kind of repentance. The devil is trying to move you away from receiving the free gift in order to walk in this other kind of sorrow. Meditate on believing God when He says He is greater than our sin. (I wonder, too, if you're afflicting yourself for things that weren't your fault.)

Now about the falling away. Romans 11: 23-24: And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

So you see, It's impossible for you to have fallen away as long as you're still seeking. You are still concerned about your faith, so you are here. That's why you're requesting prayer. The devil pulled that very same lie on John Bunyan, and we all see how that turned out. He is perhaps one of the greatest, tenderest, and dearest theologians of all time, mostly because of his battle with satan. It made him a most compassionate man. Trust me, if you had fallen away, you wouldn't have any interest in being here whatsoever. You wouldn't care.

Secondly, there is not a single Christian, a real Christian that is, who didn't go or who will not go through a serious battle with faith and whether or not they are saved. The reason is, people who never look at their sin and question tend to presume upon God's grace--a dreadful sin. But you are willing, and the devil is trying to keep you from it. You absolutely must assert your will to believe God even though you are suffering. Unbelief is not to be dallied with, so remember what the devil's goals for you are. When he tempts you with unbelief say, "Get behind me, satan. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and you have no claim on me." Then simply trust God to deal with the rest. Better yet, tell God you are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and ask Him to relay the message for you so you don't have to talk to the evil one.

No--Jesus absolutely did not commit suicide. Not in any shape or form, but that's the devil whispering lies to you because he wants you to do it to yourself. There are a couple of passages about our bodies as temples, and you need to bring yourself into obedience here so your faith can be affirmed. I Corinthians 3:16: Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for that temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

So you see, you really do testify something with SI even though your motives are entirely different. Like I say, the devil has his own motives, and he'll let you think whatever you want as long as you're doing what will lead you to this. If you do it in your unawares, not knowing the significance, blinded from this reality by what you think are your own motives, that's even better for him because he can slip in any manner of deceit that way. Now for the passage that actually links doctrine to our bodies, and you need to recite these whenever you feel tempted, because scripture is the sword of the spirit, your offensive weapon from Ephesians 6. The other scripture you need to recite is
I Corinthians 6: 19-20.
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own. You were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

If you recite that to the Lord and ask Him to relay it to the devil who tempts you, here's what's happening: you're acknowledging that you are a temple of God. That is a statement of faith. You are professing it. You're testifying it with your open defiance to the temptation, and trusting the Lord to deliver your message for you. This is faith in action. It is the ultimate proof of what you believe. The temptation may or may not get worse for a time. But persist, and the devil will shut his fat trap. The Bible guarantees it. It doesn't say when, but it guarantees it and it will happen in due time. The best way to increase your faith is to recite the scriptures, and then do precisely what you recited. Your own actions will increase your faith as a sign of God's imminent presence. Guaranteed.  Blessings to you.

[Broken]

Hey Whitehorse,

I see "Independent" got banned I did wonder why the number of pages on this topic had suddenly gone up!

broken do you see how angry whitehorse got? Is this the type of fanatic you want to ally yourself with, the kind of fanatic that sees ideas as a threat?

I don't see Whitehorse as a fanatic - and I have met a fair few. Besides which - I asked for help, I might have got annoyed if someone had insisted on telling me about faith when I didn't want them to, but in this case, I asked. And I asked in a Christian forum, not an atheist one - I could have gone to Internet Infidels' forum if I had wanted responses from that side of the fence, but I didn't, so I came here.

That's the first thing you have to know. If you weren't so special to God, the devil wouldn't waste a second on you. Not one blessed second. There's a reason he's working so hard on you--think about it. He afflicts *God's* people with all kinds of griefs and then points the finger at God and says, "See? *He* doesn't love you."

I'm a bit unwilling to think of the devil as showing me scriptures, of causing doubt, that sort of thing. I'm rather keen on the notion of free will and responsibility - if I doubt, it is my fault, not something I can blame on someone else and then whine at judgement that it wasn't my fault - Adam and Eve tried that one, and it didn't work.

So that's why the devil tempts you by whispering in your ear that God is mean--because the affliction that seems so heavy is actually the portal to everlasting peace and ease, being prepared for you right this minute, Emma, even as we speak! If the devil can convince you God means you harm, you'll reject the faith that comes through suffering that will save you.

I don't hate God, or think he's mean or anything. I don't feel anything toward God (which is perhaps part of the problem), as far as I'm concerned, if I have transgressed this thing in the Bible, then thats that. I had access to the Bible before I lost my faith the first time, its not like I couldn't have read about it, if someone warns you about the consequences of doing something and you do it anyway, that doesn't make them evil for doing what they said, merely consistent.

In reality, any, I mean any partaking in your own salvation is putting your faith in something other than Christ and there are stern warnings about it in the Bible. You'll need to turn away from it, because it's an unwitting affront to God's perfect sacrifice and it cannot save.

SI isn't done to save anyone from anything - its a coping mechanism. Not a good one, not a long-lasting one, but like some people use alcohol or drugs or sex to help them in the short-term, others use SI. Now, that still makes it not a good thing - but hardly makes it a rival of Christ. When you drink to make yourself feel better you're not thinking that the alcohol offers eternal salvation, are you? Or that drinking is a punishment which will wipe out your sins - even if you do drink because you don't like yourself much, the drinking doesn't then make you like yourself better, neither does SI.

So that's why we're moving you away from that. The devil tells people the SI is a "Christ-likeness": another lie. Jesus paid the price for you, and you are not to try to help Him!

The people who crucify themselves, flagellate themselves, etc, do not do so to help Christ perform his sacrifice! They're doing it to demonstrate how much they love him, and would like to be like him - as people do when they fast, or attempt to replicate his manner toward others or keep his commandments. Its a more extreme version though. The best comparison would probably be with people who get Christian tattoos to demonstrate their faith.

So you see, It's impossible for you to have fallen away as long as you're still seeking. You are still concerned about your faith, so you are here.

But not all seekers will be allowed to find :

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. (John 8:21)

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me (Proverbs 1:24-8)

It just seems to me like the Bible is saying that there is a point after which you can seek all you like but God won't listen - because you went too far. If you refuse God, he's not coming back.

No--Jesus absolutely did not commit suicide. Not in any shape or form, but that's the devil whispering lies to you because he wants you to do it to yourself.

Well, he did decide to die for the sake of others - an altruistic suicide if you like. He didn't have to die, after all, but chose to.

There are a couple of passages about our bodies as temples, and you need to bring yourself into obedience here so your faith can be affirmed. I Corinthians 3:16: Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for that temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

I always thought that refered to the soul though - I mean the Bible does tend to go on about how the flesh doesn't matter, about how its evil and all that, and say that only the spirit matters.
 

It is the ultimate proof of what you believe. The temptation may or may not get worse for a time. But persist, and the devil will shut his fat trap. The Bible guarantees it. It doesn't say when, but it guarantees it and it will happen in due time. The best way to increase your faith is to recite the scriptures, and then do precisely what you recited.

But if I don't believe in satan and I'm not sure about God either - how is that supposed to help? God doesn't even hear the prayers of unbelievers (John 9:31) so why should my recitation of anything mean or do anything at all?

[Whitehorse]

Hi, everything is fixed now so we're up and running.

I'm a bit unwilling to think of the devil as showing me scriptures, of causing doubt, that sort of thing. I'm rather keen on the notion of free will and responsibility - if I doubt, it is my fault, not something I can blame on someone else and then whine at judgement that it wasn't my fault - Adam and Eve tried that one, and it didn't work.

But don't you see, this is exactly what he did to Jesus, and to Adam and Eve. Eve fell because she was tempted. It was her fault, but she was not without enticement. But in regards to your situation, all that scripture that tells about the devil's schemes is there for a reason. Ephesians six is there for a reason. There's a difference between being tempted and sinning. If the devil would try something on Jesus, he'll do it to you, too. And that's how we know what to do; Jesus gave us an example. So if you're not doing that, there'd be a problem there. But the point was, there's a reason the devil's working on you. If you weren't precious, he wouldn't waste his time.

I don't hate God, or think he's mean or anything. I don't feel anything toward God (which is perhaps part of the problem), as far as I'm concerned, if I have transgressed this thing in the Bible, then thats that. I had access to the Bible before I lost my faith the first time, its not like I couldn't have read about it, if someone warns you about the consequences of doing something and you do it anyway, that doesn't make them evil for doing what they said, merely consistent.

But the other scriptures I showed you. See, there's proper interpretation, and you're shooting yourself in the foot. I wouldn't do that. God hates that because He sees it as unbelief, and it's your job to trust what He says, even the verses that are in your favor.

Now, that still makes it not a good thing - but hardly makes it a rival of Christ.

You're desecrating your temple. You are part of the body of Christ. So there are much bigger implications to what you're doing, implications you may not intend.

The people who crucify themselves, flagellate themselves, etc, do not do so to help Christ perform his sacrifice! They're doing it to demonstrate how much they love him, and would like to be like him - as people do when they fast, or attempt to replicate his manner toward others or keep his commandments. Its a more extreme version though. The best comparison would probably be with people who get Christian tattoos to demonstrate their faith.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. [Proverbs 14:12] Emma, God wants you to be like Him in your *character,* not your wounds. The devil is tricking you. He pulled that on Jesus at the pinnacle; the suggestion was for Jesus to "prove" his devotion and faith in the promises by jumping. Emma, Jesus said no. You must do likewise, and in *that* way be like Christ.

But not all seekers will be allowed to find :

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. (John 8:21)

Jesus was talking to Pharisees who weren't seeking Him at all. By "seeking" Jesus meant looking for His physical person. But He was going to die and be resurrected. These Pharisees weren't seeking to follow after His teachings; they tried to kill Him! You're not in that category.

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me (Proverbs 1:24-8)

It just seems to me like the Bible is saying that there is a point after which you can seek all you like but God won't listen - because you went too far. If you refuse God, he's not coming back.

Then don't you think it's time to stop shooting your faith in the foot and start taking Him at His word? You never stopped seeking so this doesn't apply to you. Find for me one person in the Bible who trusted in Him and was confounded. Not a single one. Here's what the Bible does say about trust:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and *lean not on your own understanding*.; in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6 [emphasis mine]

No Jesus did not commit altruistic suicide.  He was killed by the hands of others, and Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." He said this because they sinned in murdering an innocent Man. But God had plans for it. Jesus did not drive nails into His own hands and feet. Jesus also warned Pilate that he was sinning. But prophecies were to be fulfilled. There's no "in a way" about it.

I always thought that refered to the soul though - I mean the Bible does tend to go on about how the flesh doesn't matter, about how its evil and all that, and say that only the spirit matters.

No, it says body:
I Corinthians 6:19-20: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, Who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

When the Bible talks about the flesh in other regards, it is talking about the sin nature. It's the sin nature you are to put to death, not your physical body. In addition to the verse above, we have the sixth commandment.

Exodus 20:13. You shall not murder.

Also John 6:35: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."

And John 10:10: The thief comes only to steal, kill. and destroy; I have come that they may have LIFE, and have it TO THE FULL. [emphasis mine]
 

But if I don't believe in satan and I'm not sure about God either - how is that supposed to help? God doesn't even hear the prayers of unbelievers (John 9:31) so why should my recitation of anything mean or do anything at all?

I'm not buying that for a second. You can't be so worried about something you don't believe. Don't question why God tells you to do something. You want to be like Jesus? Then read Matthew 4 (the temptation of Jesus) and do what He did. You do it because Jesus did and that testifies both to the devil and to you to Whom you belong. Don't ask God why. Just do it.

Four principles to remember:
1. God's word was given to us to get us to Heaven. Even the warnings are there to tell you what to repent of. God always, always lets you repent. Always. So if you're using scripture to make a case against yourself, if you're using it as a roadblock to your own faith, you're under deception.
2. If you're struggling ever with your faith, you can say, "God, I don't understand how I can be saved, but if You say it's so, then it is. It has to be, because You don't lie. I don't see, but I know Your character, and You're not a liar." He'll absolutely honor that.
3. Spend alone time with God; lot's of it ask Him for what you want. Then wait expectantly, watching each day for it. You'll get it.
4. Unbelief is dangerous. Don't dally with it anymore. God is working with you. God is sending help. If you deny this, you'll insult Him. You''l dishonor Him. And if you're seeking to be like Him, if you're serious about your own soul, don't endanger it by rejecting the help God gives you. Read His word each day.

Blessings to you.

[Broken]

But don't you see, this is exactly what he did to Jesus, and to Adam and Eve. Eve fell because she was tempted. It was her fault, but she was not without enticement.

The Jews regard Genesis as talking about temptation, rather than a talking serpent, by the way.
I just don't see how it can be just to have a demiurge like satan wandering around: if you do something wrong, its his fault, not yours - if he is a powerful alternative to God, then you cannot resist (which is actually a teaching of the church as I recall, that you cannot help but sin unless God gives you the grace not to - thus ignoring personal responsibility entirely and laying the blame on God for sin).

But in regards to your situation, all that scripture that tells about the devil's schemes is there for a reason. Ephesians six is there for a reason. There's a difference between being tempted and sinning.

But if someone makes you an "offer you cannot refuse", as satan is said to do, then you cannot be sinning by accepting it.
But that is by the by, I dislike the idea of saying its not my fault that I do X, its some invisible goaty guy making me do it, thats putting the idea there in the first place, that without invisible goaty guy I would be fine - I consider that idea to be immoral in itself.

But the other scriptures I showed you. See, there's proper interpretation, and you're shooting yourself in the foot. I wouldn't do that. God hates that because He sees it as unbelief, and it's your job to trust what He says, even the verses that are in your favor.

The verses seem to say different things though - some say you cannot fall away, some say you can and if you do you're damned, some say you need to keep working at it to be saved. The doctrine seems to change depending on the author.

You're desecrating your temple. You are part of the body of Christ. So there are much bigger implications to what you're doing, implications you may not intend.

But the temple is no longer a physical thing according to John 4 - but a spiritual one. Hence the importance of spiritual purity whereas the physical temple is irrelevant.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. [Proverbs 14:12] Emma, God wants you to be like Him in your *character,* not your wounds. The devil is tricking you. He pulled that on Jesus at the pinnacle; the suggestion was for Jesus to "prove" his devotion and faith in the promises by jumping. Emma, Jesus said no. You must do likewise, and in *that* way be like Christ.

The people who view their SI in that way - and I am not one of them btw - do not see it as a proof of faith, but a way of reminding themselves of their faith, as some people wear those WWJD bracelets. They're using a physical example of carrying their cross to help themselves and others to understand spiritually carrying it.

Jesus was talking to Pharisees who weren't seeking Him at all. By "seeking" Jesus meant looking for His physical person. But He was going to die and be resurrected. These Pharisees weren't seeking to follow after His teachings; they tried to kill Him! You're not in that category.

The Pharisees were considered wrong by the gospel writers because they did not believe - or if they did believe, as some of them did, fell away. Thus they could not find Jesus.

Then don't you think it's time to stop shooting your faith in the foot and start taking Him at His word? You never stopped seeking so this doesn't apply to you.

There have been many times when I have not cared about seeking God, when I have been in other religions - which places me squarely in the category of those who did not seek and those whom God will not allow to find him.

No Jesus did not commit altruistic suicide.  He was killed by the hands of others, and Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." He said this because they sinned in murdering an innocent Man. But God had plans for it. Jesus did not drive nails into His own hands and feet. Jesus also warned Pilate that he was sinning. But prophecies were to be fulfilled. There's no "in a way" about it.

But Jesus was God - he chose to die, as John's Gospel makes abundantly clear. If he had not chosen, he would not have died. He allowed his death to occur for the sake of others, and allowed others to sin by killing him. An easy comparison to make is with Captain Oates, Scott's companion in the Antarctic, who went outside in the snow to die to help the others - he commited altruistic suicide by allowing himself to die for the sake of others.

And John 10:10: The thief comes only to steal, kill. and destroy; I have come that they may have LIFE, and have it TO THE FULL. [emphasis mine]

And what is that life? It is not physical life - because the physical body does not enter heaven. It is spiritual life. Which is how come believers have it NOW and still die.
 

I'm not buying that for a second. You can't be so worried about something you don't believe.

I'm not worried about satan - I don't see demons, and I don't believe in a two-god system.

3. Spend alone time with God; lot's of it ask Him for what you want. Then wait expectantly, watching each day for it. You'll get it.

I did. I had been reading a book about how everyone should make specific prayers to God, run the risk of them not being answered. So I asked for a sign - as others did in the Bible, I was thinking of Gideon particularly - and it was not given.

[Whitehorse]

But personal accountability would mean not blaming God and saying He's shutting the door when you've rejected eight pages of help from concerned, godly people. Either you accept responsibility for dealing with temptation the way Jesus did it, and take accountability for putting yourself under scripture, or it's your own fault, not His.

I don't think I'm helping you; it seems I'm only giving you more things to shoot down and I can't be a party to encouraging that from you. If you're serious about getting your faith on track, that's one thing. But if you're going to play games with your eternal soul, that's another. I can't help you do that. I'm here if you need me, though. You need to be willing.

[Broken]

That's the first step: figuring out your authority. If you want a saving faith in Jesus, it's the Bible. Nothing else. Nothing.

That is the Bible There are a lot of different ways to interpret the Bible, lots of different methods. That one I mentioned is simply one of them.
And don't forget natural theology that has always played an important role in faith.

(which is a smokescreen, because I gave you several Bible verses telling you how to deal with temptation. That puts the responsibility squarely on your shoulders. But you haven't addressed that except an insistence on doing that which you know you have to repent of if you ever want to have this faith in the Lord. So you say you believe in accountability, but you won't do what Jesus told you to do in order to resist temptation.

*Cough* The Bible records what Jesus did when tempted - argue with the devil. Hebrews says to look to Jesus when tempted. 1 Corinthians says that you will not be tempted beyond your strength to resist it. The Gospels say to ask God not to let you be tempted, and to pray. And the Old Testament does not even contain the word.

That last part clearly puts the blame on God. He's given you eight pages of counsel from godly people...I'm sorry. This is you refusing to take responsibility, not God closing any door.

Who said I blamed God for anything? I am simply trying to show that I fulfil God's requirements for being forsaken. That is my explanation for why I have been unable to grasp faith - because I have transgressed in a way that cannot be forgotten:

1 John 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

As far as I can see, the Bible does clearly teach that there is a point beyond which you can no longer come to faith. And it teaches that this is a direct consequence of rejecting God, which I did at one time.

That is the only explanation I can see for my inability to have faith - that it is a consequence of my past actions which cannot be erased.

Looking at the scripture from 1 John, I see that I should not have started this topic in the first place.

-Emma

[Symphony]

But only God knows whether or not he hears your prayers, Emma.

And only God knows ultimately whether we are even born again, or not.

How do you KNOW that you have been forsaken, Emma?

Just cast all your cares aside, becuase He careth for you.

[Whitehorse]

No, there are plenty of verses in your behalf, but you're rejecting them. You have to be willing. See, it's happening again. You look to the Bible for your own condemnation, but when you receive comfort from the Bible, you change the context, go outside it, or say it doesn't sit right with you. That isn't God closing any door. You say you're not blaming Him, but that's precisely what you're doing when you look for scriptural reasons why you're unwilling. I understand; you're mad at God. (Yes, you are too.) But are you willing for things to be different. Only you can make that decision. If you're not willing, don't quote scripture in giving your reason. There's plenty of hope there, if you're willing to accept personal responsibility for embracing it and being a godly steward of it. We're here for you. But, are you here for you?

[Broken]

Hey Symphony,

I appreciate the sentiment, but if the Bible says God does not listen to my prayers, and has forsaken me, then what am I to do? Ignore it?

Unless the OSAS advocates are right of course, in which case I have nothing to worry about and can do what I like (I am not a fan of OSAS)

-Emma

[Symphony]

I think Broken is in....




(sorry, couldn't resist--just kidding)

[Broken]

No, there are plenty of verses in your behalf, but you're rejecting them. You have to be willing. See, it's happening again. You look to the Bible for your own condemnation, but when you receive comfort from the Bible, you change the context, go outside it, or say it doesn't sit right with you. That isn't God closing any door. You say you're not blaming Him, but that's precisely what you're doing when you look for scriptural reasons why you're unwilling. I understand; you're mad at God. (Yes, you are too.)

I'm not mad at God, Whitehorse. If I was, I wouldn't be here, or not in this context anyway.
What is the comfort in the Bible? Comfort that offsets the condemnation there is? There is comfort, I do not deny that, but not for me - even the author of Hebrews simply said that he hoped for better things from his congregation in Hebrews 6, not that it was ok to turn apostate because God would take them back. And likewise with the Proverbs passage - it says that if you do listen to and look for God, you will find him, but if you have not, then you won't find him if you suddenly decide you would like to.

I am not unwilling. I have tried - but my prayers are not answered and I cannot find proper faith. What I am trying to do is to find a possible explanation for that - one that does not require a response of "God is nasty, waah waah". As I said before, I am taking personal responsibility for this - I chose to turn away from faith, I chose to leave it. Yes, I was provoked into so doing by a number of events at the time, but I still chose to do so. And I had plenty of opportunity to read the Bible, to understand what leaving would entail. I did leave, and have now found that you can't just come back and expect all to be forgiven - because the Bible says it doesn't work like that. I just have to figure out where I go from here.

-Emma

[Whitehorse]

Emma, if this is trying, we need to redefine trying. Here. Take those verses I told you about. Okay? Will you do that? Step two. Remeber, I told you the context of those other verses and you rejected what I told you even though I'm very confident I handled the word of truth correctly. Okay? You don't fit in that category. Did you do what I told you about telling God you were going to just believe those verses I gave you? Or if you can't, you're willing to understand that He's the God of the impossible.

Listen. If you hear one thing I say tonight, let this be it. The Bible makes it absolutely clear that if you go to Him for refuge, you will not be denied. Now here's the true test of your willingness. Are you willing to ask Him to save you? Are you willing to ask Him for refuge? It's a simple thing to do. Not what you fear will happen after, not not why or what someone else said or what the cultural beliefs in Zambia are...just are you willing to make that simple request of God. That's it. We have to start there.

God promises that whoever comes to Him will never be cast out.

[Broken]

Emma, if this is trying, we need to redefine trying. Here. Take those verses I told you about. Okay? Will you do that? Step two. Remeber, I told you the context of those other verses and you rejected what I told you even though I'm very confident I handled the word of truth correctly. Okay? You don't fit in that category.

How so? You said I didn't fit into the category because I had not stopped seeking - but as I have told you, I did, back then. I did precisely what the Bible warns over and over again you must not do - forsake God. It says that if you forsake him, he will forsake you.
Yes, someone who comes to Christ, he will not cast out - but there is a bit of a difference between God casting you out and you walking away. And yes, those who believe in God have life - but the parable of the sower does say that some people don't continue in faith, but die.

Did you do what I told you about telling God you were going to just believe those verses I gave you? Or if you can't, you're willing to understand that He's the God of the impossible.

How can I believe them when other verses say there is no possible point in doing so? That whether I believe or not, the issue is already settled? That none of you should even pray for me, because there is no point?

Listen. If you hear one thing I say tonight, let this be it. The Bible makes it absolutely clear that if you go to Him for refuge, you will not be denied.

Except in certain instances - which I have already pointed out.

Now here's the true test of your willingness. Are you willing to ask Him to save you? Are you willing to ask Him for refuge?

I have done so, over and over again - but you can talk to the wind for all the good asking without faith does. As long as I continue to doubt, it is pointless - and I cannot stop doubting, as I've said throughout this thread, I can manage the head-faith, but not the heart - and I have a feeling I just figured out why I couldn't manage that.

I have prayed that sinner's prayer so many times - but its just words, without response, without meaning really, with nothing behind it there is nothing in it. Now, I can become a God-fearer, yes, nothing is stopping me from doing that. But the end result will be the same as though I had never bothered - fire and screechin in the New Jerusalem forever, along with all the other people who weren't saved.

-Emma