a question for all of you

[Left Coast]

L.C.

  What does God do with the mentally retarded? I guess God tosses them in the pit also.

 Our God is a loving, merciful God L.C. He is the righteous judge, do you understand what that means?
 Bronzesnake.

If you believe salvation is based on mans freewill decision then the answer would have to be yes, they would go to the pit too.
In fact don’t stop there.
How about someone that has suffered severe brain damage? Maybe they have Alzheimer’s, or some other illness.
Maybe their brain was injured. What are you going to say?
“Well Mrs. Smith, your son Bobby wrecked his car because he was drunk. He had drugs in his system, and he was running from the police because he had robbed a store.
Now he is a complete vegetable, and incapable of ever making a decision again.
He is going to go to hell because it is now impossible for him to make a freewill decision for Christ.”
That is the hope of the freewill Gospel, it puts salvation into the ability of the individual.
As individuals our abilities vary, our ability to make decisions vary. The freewill gospel is not loving, not merciful, not righteous and not fair.
It is also not the gospel.
None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God draws those he intends to save. He will lose none of them.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you ever pray for someone to become saved? If you do, and I hope you do, then you are asking God to treat them better than he treats someone else. Now if salvation is dependent on our decision that would be asking God to be unfair and treat some better than others. If it's all dependent on your choice, is it right if God assists someone to make sure they make the right choice? The unsaved could rightfully claim, “I would have chosen you if you had given me the same help you gave Mr. Bronzesnake.”
If salvation is because God chooses to be merciful to some then you are only asking God if he might possibly rescue someone. God chooses who he is going to be merciful to.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not by our will, it is by Gods mercy.
God does save children, he does save the mentally deficient, he does save those in foreign lands, but he does not do it through freewill decisions. That was the statement you made at the very beginning that I had to expose as false.

It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...
 
 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 

No we don’t.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Please think carefully about this,
John

[Bronzesnake]

Quote from: Bronzesnake on June 16, 2004, 08:56:42 PM

 It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...

God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 
leftcoast...

No we don’t.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Please think carefully about this,
John

 So, we're all robots are we?

 Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with our ability to choose. They speak of the fact that God gives us enough wisdom in order for us to make the correct choice. If we don't have free will to choose, or reject Him - then why does anyone end up in Hell?
...

 Please think carefully about this  

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

 So, we're all robots are we?

 Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with our ability to choose. They speak of the fact that God gives us enough wisdom in order for us to make the correct choice. If we don't have free will to choose, or reject Him - then why does anyone end up in Hell?
...

 Please think carefully about this  

Bronzesnake.

I understand your confusion. I used to believe salvation was dependent on our work of choosing, also.
When you are convinced salvation is based on the work that you do, you feel that what I am saying is that God forces us to do the work, making us robots or slaves.
No work is required of man --- NONE. It is a rescue.
In the book of Mark there is an interesting story about a paralytic man. His friends carried him to Jesus so he could be healed of his paralysis.
In his eyes Jesus was a healer, not a savior, not a sacrificial lamb, he had no idea Jesus could forgive him for his sins.
His friends lowered him down through the roof so that Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him of his sins. No freewill choice, no personal decision, was he a robot?

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

He received salvation but he didn’t ask for it or seek it.
A dead person has no freewill. A dead person can’t believe. A dead person can’t actively receive.
We have the story of Lazarus.
4 days in the grave ---- he was rotting.
Jesus commanded him to come forth, he did.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Was Lazarus a robot?
Man is spiritually dead.
Jesus calling Lazarus forth is a picture of salvation. I believe Lazarus was saved before he died, but God puts the story in the bible to paint the picture of salvation.
Do the dead have freewill? Do the dead choose?

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Our salvation is dependent COMPLETELY on Gods grace. His Mercy. He chooses who he is going to be merciful to.
So what can we do? Is there no hope? Should we just sit around and wait for God to hit us in the back of the head with salvation? NO!!!
Get on your knees. Plead with God for mercy. Seek him out in the word. Read and study and pray. Do everything you can to keep yourself from sin. Show God you are SERIOUS about wanting to spend your life with Him.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

God is merciful. He is not obligated to save a person, but who knows perhaps He will. One thing is very likely if we do not seek him it is very unlikely we will find him.
Sadly on judgment day there are going to be a lot of people who thought they did what was necessary to get themselves saved. They did the work required. Everyone told them, “You’ve done it, you have come forward and confessed and asked Jesus into your heart. Now you are saved.”
They go to work to convince others to join up. They teach Sunday school. They become pastors. Missionaries. Etc. Working to cast the devil out of others. Unfortunately they trusted in their work, not Gods work in them.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So many people put their faith in their work.

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Please think carefully about this  

I did that is why I no longer believe in the freewill gospel.  
John

[Heidi]

I agree with you, left Coast!! Human beings know what's in their minds so they think that THEY are making their own decisions. But if God has hardened someone's heart, his decisions CANNOT come from the holy Spirit but from satan because God has not given them His power. This is why Jesus says; "I can do nothing without my father" and to Pilate; "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." At Bible study we were asked the question; "Do the people who will eventually follow the anti-christ think they are acting freely or do they know that they have been hardened by God? The answer is that of course they will think they are acting freely, just as all of us do, but "God hardens whom he wants to harden and as mercy on whom he wants to have mercy." Paul is the first one to admit that he was TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit, NOT of his own free will.

[Left Coast]

Hi Heidi
Yes, we have many similar beliefs.
In line with what you are saying, we can know that if we are one of those that God has chosen we will not be deceived.

Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

"If it were possible", fortunatly God does protect us, so it is not.  
John

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

I understand your confusion. I used to believe salvation was dependent on our work of choosing, also.
When you are convinced salvation is based on the work that you do, you feel that what I am saying is that God forces us to do the work, making us robots or slaves.
No work is required of man --- NONE. It is a rescue.

 Now you're being ridiculous! When did I ever say salvation depends on our works? We must either choose Jesus or reject Him L.C. that has nothing to do with works.

 If what you say is true, then we can do anything we want to regardless of how vile or self serving it is, and everyone gets saved because Jesus will "rescue us" If that's true then all the Hell scriptures as well as all the consequences of sin scriptures are all wrong. What a load!

 The act of choosing doesn't save us L.C., Jesus does. Once we choose Him, He forgives us of our sins, having died on the cross to pay for our transgressions, and we become saved by Jesus. Not from the act of free will itself.

Jesus says we must choose. Those who choose Jesus will be saved. Those who do not, will not be saved. You are the confused one my friend.
 
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 I can see where this is going L.C. I don't want anything to do with you or you're convoluted reasoning. That is one of the most far fetched, goofy pieces of biblical misinterpretation I've heard in a long time!

I'm not sure whether you're a pretend Christian antagonists, or if you are simple warping scripture, although I'm beginning to suspect the former.

 Have a nice life...

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

Bronze
Are you interested in searching for truth?

Don’t be so judgmental. The Gospel does offend, please consider that.
You don’t understand and so you say:

I'm not sure whether you're a pretend Christian antagonists, or if you are simple warping scripture, although I'm beginning to suspect the former.

You Judge Me, I am neither.  
How have I warped scripture? Because I have given you verses you can’t answer?  
The Paralytic man did not choose.  
I gave you verses that show that God chooses. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”
Nowhere does the bible mention we must make a FREEWILL choice.

Now you're being ridiculous! When did I ever say salvation depends on our works? We must either choose Jesus or reject Him L.C. that has nothing to do with works.

Choosing is a work.
It requires our effort. If not, then even babies could choose. Some people have a great deal of difficulty making choices. Some people don’t make good choices.
Choosing IS a work.

If what you say is true, then we can do anything we want to regardless of how vile or self serving it is, and everyone gets saved because Jesus will "rescue us" If that's true then all the Hell scriptures as well as all the consequences of sin scriptures are all wrong. What a load!

I never said everyone gets saved --- Not sure why you came up with that.
I said:

None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

Have you read my posts??? Or do you just skim.
He will rescue -- save -- those that he has chosen from before the foundation of the earth.

IT IS THE FREEWILL GOSPEL THAT HAS JESUS PAYING FOR THE SINS OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON --- therefore none would have to go to hell to pay for their sins. You got it backwards.

You misunderstand the verses you quoted. The bible says it is Gods work that we believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That is one of the most far fetched, goofy pieces of biblical misinterpretation I've heard in a long time!

May I suggest you read the works of these goofy guys:  


*John Bunyan (best known for The Pilgrim's Progress) http://www.johnbunyan.org/

From -- SAVED BY GRACE http://www.johnbunyan.org/text/bun-saved.txt

“"BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED."—EPHESIANS 2:5.
In the first chapter, from the fourth to the twelfth verse, the apostle is treating of the doctrine of election, both with respect to the act itself, the end, and means conducing thereto. The act, he tells us, was God's free choice of some (verse 4,5,11).”
 
*Charles Spurgeon http://www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.htm

From -- Elijah's Appeal to the Undecided:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0134.htm

“I may preach to you, my hearers; and all the ministers in the world may preach to you that are wavering, but you will never decide for God through the force of your own will. None of you, if left to your natural judgment, to the use of your own reason, will ever decide for God. You may decide for him merely as an outward form, but not as an inward spiritual thing, which should possess your heart as a Christian, as a believer in the doctrine of effectual grace. I know that none of you will ever decide for God's gospel, unless God decide you; and I tell you that you must either be decided by the descent of the fire of his Spirit into your hearts now, or else in the day of judgment.”

*The founders of the SOUTHERN BAPTIST faith, http://www.founders.org/
When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858 every professor had to agree with the abstract of principles, this was the first recognized confession of faith of the Southern Baptists.
http://www.founders.org/abstract.html
V. Election.
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
X. Faith.
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

The former President of the Southern Baptist Seminary and namesake of their college:
* James P. Boyce
I recommend reading his Abstract of Systematic Theology. http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html

From the chapter on Election, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch29.html
“The texts thus exhibited under these three classes prove conclusively that not on account of their own merits, but because of the good pleasure of God, does he choose men.”
 
From the chapter on Outward And Effectual Calling, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch31.html
“The atoning work of Christ was not sufficient for the salvation of man.
That work was only Godward, and removed only all the obstacles in the way of God's pardon of the sinner.
But the sinner is also at enmity with God, and must be brought to accept salvation, and must learn to love and serve God.
The first step here is to make known to man the gospel, which contains the glad tidings of this salvation, under such influences as ought to lead to its acceptance.
The Gospel is, therefore, commanded to be proclaimed to every creature, inasmuch as there is in the work of Christ a means of redemption for every one.
This is the external call of the Gospel.
This proclamation, however, meets with no success because of the willful sinfulness of man, although, in itself, it has all the elements which should secure its acceptance.
God knowing that this is true, not only of all mankind in general, but even of the elect whom he purposes to save in Christ, gives to these such influences of the Spirit as will lead to their acceptance of the call. This is called Effectual Calling.”

There are many more Goofy Guys out there, none are perfect. This should keep you busy for a while. I also am not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but you have not addressed the verses I have given. Instead you seek to criticize.

I’ll add one more goofy guy incase you prefer to listen instead of read.
*Dr. Donald Barnhouse http://www.accradio.com/Barnhouse/Programs.htm

I am not antagonistic toward you, I pray God will give you wisdom. You need it, your path is wrong.

Proverbs 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John

[ollie]

I agree with you, left Coast!! Human beings know what's in their minds so they think that THEY are making their own decisions. But if God has hardened someone's heart, his decisions CANNOT come from the holy Spirit but from satan because God has not given them His power.

Are you saying Satan is hardening the heart when one chooses to hearken unto Jesus Christ and follow HIm and His word?

 

This is why Jesus says; "I can do nothing without my father" and to Pilate; "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."

How about a detailed explanation of those verses taken in context of the whole.
 

At Bible study we were asked the question; "Do the people who will eventually follow the anti-christ think they are acting freely or do they know that they have been hardened by God? The answer is that of course they will think they are acting freely, just as all of us do,

Do you honestly believe that anyone that accepts Jesus Christ freely and is obedient to His word will be what the Bible refers to as "anti-Christ?


 

but "God hardens whom he wants to harden and as mercy on whom he wants to have mercy."

Do you honestly think that anyone that freely comes to Jesus Christ upon hearing the good news of Jesus Christ will have their heart hardened by God or that this is a hard heart?
Think how ridiculous some of your statements are!  Study!

 

Paul is the first one to admit that he was TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit, NOT of his own free will.

The Holy Spirit will dwell in all who come to follow and obey Christ. This is not an action of man's free will, it is God's will. Man can only hear the word, believe and obey as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.


Ollie

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 

Bronze
Are you interested in searching for truth?

 No, I have the truth. You need to find it.

How have I warped scripture? Because I have given you verses you can’t answer?

 I answered, you refused to listen.

 

The Paralytic man did not choose.

How do you know that? Did you speak to him personally? He was healed, but we don't know if he was saved. There is a differnce between being healed and being saved, or don't you understand that either?

 Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise.

I gave you verses that show that God chooses. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”
Nowhere does the bible mention we must make a FREEWILL choice.

 Yes, you gave me verses which you took totally out of context to bolster your false position. In your convoluted world, God chooses to save some, and all others are doomed regardless of whether they have faith in Jesus or not. Why bother putting all those poor lost souls through the torture of life? Why doesn't God just wipe them out - they're not going to Heaven anyway...right? Also, why did Jesus have to come and be crucified? And why did Jesus lie and say, whoever believes in Me shall be saved?



 Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  

 Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.  


Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  


 Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  


Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Oh No! call on the name of the Lord! That sounds like a work!

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What's this?! more filthy works!

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  
 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  


The Holy Bible must be wrong! That smart guy, John (Lord) Bunyan from the web site told me it was wrong that anyone could be saved!!!! NNOOOOO!

L.C. Are you interested in searching for truth?  

Bronzesnake

[ollie]

L.C.

  What does God do with the mentally retarded? I guess God tosses them in the pit also.

 Our God is a loving, merciful God L.C. He is the righteous judge, do you understand what that means?
 Bronzesnake.

If you believe salvation is based on mans freewill decision then the answer would have to be yes, they would go to the pit too.
In fact don’t stop there.
How about someone that has suffered severe brain damage? Maybe they have Alzheimer’s, or some other illness.
Maybe their brain was injured. What are you going to say?
“Well Mrs. Smith, your son Bobby wrecked his car because he was drunk. He had drugs in his system, and he was running from the police because he had robbed a store.
Now he is a complete vegetable, and incapable of ever making a decision again.
He is going to go to hell because it is now impossible for him to make a freewill decision for Christ.”
That is the hope of the freewill Gospel, it puts salvation into the ability of the individual.
As individuals our abilities vary, our ability to make decisions vary. The freewill gospel is not loving, not merciful, not righteous and not fair.
It is also not the gospel.
None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God draws those he intends to save. He will lose none of them.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you ever pray for someone to become saved? If you do, and I hope you do, then you are asking God to treat them better than he treats someone else. Now if salvation is dependent on our decision that would be asking God to be unfair and treat some better than others. If it's all dependent on your choice, is it right if God assists someone to make sure they make the right choice? The unsaved could rightfully claim, “I would have chosen you if you had given me the same help you gave Mr. Bronzesnake.”
If salvation is because God chooses to be merciful to some then you are only asking God if he might possibly rescue someone. God chooses who he is going to be merciful to.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not by our will, it is by Gods mercy.
God does save children, he does save the mentally deficient, he does save those in foreign lands, but he does not do it through freewill decisions. That was the statement you made at the very beginning that I had to expose as false.

It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...
 
 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 

No we don’t.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Please think carefully about this,
John

"No we don't.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"

Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus, the saved. in these quoted verses and it has nothing to do with God choosing them in their initial coming to Christ, It has to do with what God  gives to those that are already His, (in this case the church at Ephesus),  through their faith in Christ. Which faith by the way is obtained by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word having called them to faith in Christ.
Ollie

[Left Coast]

Bronze
I appreciate your answer, thank you.
The search for truth should never end, no one has perfect understanding.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Even when I was certain I knew the truth I was never so vain as to believe I could be without error. So yes I do search for the truth, on my knees before God I seek wisdom and truth, try it some time.
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer an Atheist.
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer a Reincarnationist.
It is because I searched for truth, on my knees, that I am no longer a Freewill Believer.
You still haven’t answered how I have warped the scripture.
I gave you sources of respectable Christians who believe similar to me because you accused me of warping the scripture or of being a pretend Christian antagonist. If I am, then so are those I mentioned and many more, is that still your accusation?
Spurgeon ? The original Southern Baptists? James P. Boyce? Dr. Barnhouse? John Bunyan? (I didn’t know Bunyan had been given a Lordship, were you thinking of Lord Byron?) Are these great Christian teachers and preachers warping scripture?

How do you know that? Did you speak to him personally? He was healed, but we don't know if he was saved. There is a differnce between being healed and being saved, or don't you understand that either?

His sins were forgiven. What do you think that means? It seems to me you are the one that doesn’t quite understand.
First he was saved THEN he was healed.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

The faith they had was Jesus would heal him of his infirmity. They had faith in Jesus, but they had no knowledge of his ability to save man.

Mark 2:7  Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mark 2:8  And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mark 2:9  Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:10  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mark 2:11  I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mark 2:12  And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

You have not answered, other than to say I warp scripture (how?), most of the verses I have given you.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 37 Everyone that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Verse 44 No one can come to Jesus unless God draws him.
Verse 45 Those that are taught of God are those that are drawn toward Jesus.
You never answered Romans 9:13-16, Deuteronomy 32:25, Psalms 58:3, Isaiah 48:8, James 1:18, basically all of John 6, Ephesians 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, etc.
You are not telling the truth when you say:

I answered, you refused to listen.

We can both claim that the other takes verses out of context, when I make the claim I do try to show you how you have taken them out of context.

Why bother putting all those poor lost souls through the torture of life? Why doesn't God just wipe them out - they're not going to Heaven anyway...right?

The bible seems to give an indication by living on this earth he is creating something special. We are his workmanship, it seems the wicked are necessary to create what he wants in us. I am not absolutely clear on this, I could be way off base.
Your question was an old question.

Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And why did Jesus lie and say, whoever believes in Me shall be saved?

It wasn’t a lie, whosoever is those that God draws. Our ability to have saving belief is Gods work. John 6, etc.
Many believe but not to salvation. Even the devils believe.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The bible mentions that many that believe and call Jesus Lord, and work for him, He never knew.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please don’t be offended, I am not sure if you understand what salvation is.

Also, why did Jesus have to come and be crucified?

To pay for the sins of those that he came to save. Sin requires a payment, the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23)
It is the second death.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It was necessary for Jesus to make that payment for those that he came to save. Once the payment is made it never needs to be made again, that is why Jesus didn’t make the payment for every person on the planet. He can’t go back and get a refund on the enormous suffering that he endured.
He began paying for our sins at the Garden of Gethsemane. This will be too long, if you do understand it is not necessary to continue. If you wish I can explain further.
Concerning your verses, I will try to be brief.
Matthew 19:28-29 does not say anything about freewill. Those that follow are those that God has chosen.
Mark 16:16, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, and all other verses that talk about believing I explained earlier, it is Gods work that we believe. John 6, Philippians 1:29,

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is a companion verse to explain the following verses:

Acts 2:21
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13

It is Gods work in us, notice how much this following verse resembles Romans 10:9.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

One of the problems that you are having comes from a misunderstanding of the Greek word <pas>.
The translators recognized that the word ‘pas’ has many meanings, so it was translated in many ways.
all 748 times, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
John 3:16 -- whosoever <pas>
1 Timothy 2:4 -- all <pas> men
Etc.
If we look at other places where this word shows up we might begin to see other possibilities.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John was a very busy guy.
 
Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all <pas> the world should be taxed.
Luke 2:3  And all <pas> went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Was ALL the world taxed?

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s an interesting one, --- ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Does this fit your definition of ‘all’?

Acts 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all <pas> that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is that right? He healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil?

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

This is an excellent and acceptable interpretation for the types of verses you put your eternity on.

John

[Left Coast]

"No we don't.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"

Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus, the saved. in these quoted verses and it has nothing to do with God choosing them in their initial coming to Christ, It has to do with what God  gives to those that are already His, (in this case the church at Ephesus),  through their faith in Christ. Which faith by the way is obtained by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word having called them to faith in Christ.
Ollie

That's an interesting thought and worthy of consideration.
Thank You, Ollie
John

[His_child]

The search for truth should never end, no one has perfect understanding.

I agree.
One of the main reasons I try not to offend my brothers and sisters when we disagree is because I like to imagine us all up in Heaven some day having a good discussion over a cup of joe and being amazed at what we thought was correct really wasn't and what we thought was incorrect was really correct.... and having a good laugh over it.

[Bronzesnake]

 L.C.

I gave you sources of respectable Christians who believe similar to me because you accused me of warping the scripture or of being a pretend Christian antagonist. If I am, then so are those I mentioned and many more, is that still your accusation?

 No, it's not my opinion any longer.
I apologize, I see now that you are sincere in your beliefs, and not just an antagonist.
 I do, however, disagree with you on a few of your doctrinal stances. Free will is one of them.

 I assume you are a Calvinist.

 Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (though within certain parameters) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies—whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God’s will or not. This fundamental assumption is demonstrated in a variety of ways throughout Scripture. It is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy when Yahweh tells the children of Israel:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.  

 Deu 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?  

 Deu 30:13 Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?  

Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
 
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
 
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.  

Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;  

Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.  

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:  

Whether the children of Israel are blessed or cursed depends on what they choose to do. God set before them the possibilities of life and death, but they decide which possibilities they shall actualize.

Beginning in the Garden of Eden in which God creates Adam and Eve with the ability to obey or disobey him, and continuing on throughout the Bible through the New Testament where life and death are portrayed as depending on peoples’ acceptance or rejection of the Savior, the Bible portrays people as generating their own activity and creating their own destinies by the decisions they make. God’s will is unequivocally for all to choose to obey him - to choose life and not death. But, sadly, many freely reject God to their own destruction. Creating creatures with wills of their own is risky, even for God.

  The Bible assumes that people made in the image of the free Creator are capable of freely creating on their own. This is at least part of what Scripture means when it says that humans are made in God’s image Gen. 1:26–27. We reflect God’s self-determination. We think, act and determine our destinies out of our “heart.” The Lord sets before us the possibilities of our lives, including the possibility of life or death. But we freely actualize whatever possibilities our “heart” desires.

Understanding of freedom is clear from the fact that humans often use their freedom in ways that directly contradict the Lord’s will. People are not puppets that God secretly controls, but free agents who possess significant control of their own lives, and can either cooperate with, or resist, the will of their sovereign Creator.

This contradicts the classical notion that everything in history reflects God’s sovereign will! History rather frequently reflects the will of creatures who oppose the sovereign will of the Creator. The Bible clearly teaches that God unequivocally does not will sin - But obviously sin still occurs. Similarly, the Bible explicitly states that it is not God’s will that any person would perish 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9. But many nevertheless do perish. Hence, it is clear that God’s will is not always accomplished, and God’s heart is frequently grieved.

 Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

L.C.

I apologize, I see now that you are sincere in your beliefs, and not just an antagonist.

Thank You,
I am very sincere, and devoted to the Lord.

I do, however, disagree with you on a few of your doctrinal stances. Free will is one of them.

 I assume you are a Calvinist.

While I often use the term Calvinist, I actually don’t know that much of what he believed having only read a little of his teachings. I am probably as much a Calvinist as you are an Arminian.
I am not offended to be called a Calvinist, but the term conjures up an image that is not faithful to true Calvinism.
Most think in terms of Hyper-Calvinism. The word ‘Hyper’ not how we define it today, it is an Old-English term meaning higher.
Here is a good explanation from the Founders website. http://www.founders.org/FJ24/sidebar2.html

In one sense, hyper-Calvinism, like Arminianism, is a rationalistic perversion of true Calvinism. Whereas Arminianism destroys the sovereignty of God, hyper-Calvinism destroys the responsbility of man. The irony is that both Arminianism and hyper-Calvinism start from the same, erroneous rationalistic presupposition: Man's ability and responsibility are coextensive. That is, they must match up exactly or else it is irrational. If a man is to be held responsible for something, then he must have the ability to do it. On the other hand, if a man does not have the ability to perform it, he cannot be obligated to do it.
The Arminian looks at this premise and says, "Agreed! We know that all men are held responsbile to repent and believe [which is true, according to the Bible]; therefore we must conclude that all men have the ability in themselves to repent and believe [which is false, according to the Bible]." Thus, Arminians teach that unconverted people have within themselves the spiritual ability to repent and believe.
The hyper-Calvinist takes the same premise (that man's ability and responsibility are coextensive) and says, "Agreed! We know that, in and of themselves, all men are without spiritual ability to repent and believe [which is true, according to the Bible]; therefore we must conclude that unconverted people are not under obligation to repent and believe the gospel [which is false, according to the Bible]."
In contrast to both of these, the Calvinist looks at the premise and says, "Wrong! While it looks reasonable, it is not biblical. The Bible teaches both that fallen man is without spiritual ability and that he is obligated to repent and believe. Only by the powerful, regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is man given the ability to fulfuill his duty to repent and believe." And though this may seem unreasonable to rationalistic minds, there is no contradiction, and it is precisely the position the Bible teaches.

 
Salvation is a rescue. All of us are condemned to Hell by our own actions, we do choose our sins. But we will always sin, because we are born with a corrupt heart.
That heart is the problem.
God has chosen to rescue some from this terrible situation. He does not predestine some to Hell, He just passes over them.
God is not obligated to save anyone, that He does is because of His great mercy.
Freewill makes man Lord over God. Freewill says, “I’ve done it Lord, I accept Jesus and now you are OBLIGATED to save me. You Promised. So you have to do it.”
God lays out commandments for us to do, we cannot do those commandments perfectly because our heart and our body is corrupt. Your example from Deuteronomy 30 shows this perfectly.

Deuteronomy 30:16  In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

The problem is nobody can, the heart is the problem.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The concept of God commanding us to do the impossible shows up in many places in the bible.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

How do you circumcise the foreskin of your heart?
Before someone starts carving away at their chest the answer is in, SURPRISE, Deuteronomy 30.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

We cannot change our own heart, but God can. After the change of heart (done by God) in verse 6 then we are able to obey verses 11-19.

We see this same principle in Ezekiel and Hebrews:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are we saved by keeping Gods commandments? Wouldn’t you agree that would be a work?
Yet we are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The bible answers that God gives us a heart that can believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is His work in us.

John