a question for all of you

[nChrist]

Brother Love Said:

...i'm agnostic by the way Your in one of my FAVORITE religions


Brother Love

<))><

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Love,

Brother, I think that I have something about this in my notes. However, my notes have grown so large and unorganized over the last two weeks, that it would take an entire tribe of Pygmy scribes a week to organize them.  

   Brother, I'm working on it, but the Pygmy scribes refused to help me.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Sower]

I am deist and I believe in God because of the universe. How can everything be here if there is no being that created it all.

Take that to the next level. If God is God then He created this universe as a perfect universe. But that is not what we find. We see that mankind is under a curse and all human beings die. So the same Creator provided a remedy. He chose to intervene in the affairs of humanity by Himself becoming the Saviour. And that's what the Gospel is all about.

Deism says that God wound up the "clock" of this universe and walked away. Christ says that God -- as Christ Jesus -- gave His own lifeblood and life for our redemption instead of walking away. Thus Deism has only questions, while the Gospel has the answers. Repent and be converted.

[iconHis]

I don't see anybody else dying for my wrong doings.  
My proof in God, and His Word is that there is evidence evey time I pray, everytime I live a day and see the results that could never have been on my part.  
These evidences are so true that only one knowing that God is the all powerful, and studying His Word can manifest the truth of His Word and His Being.
Until one trusts as the Word of God explains that Jesus is God's son  and did live, die, and resurrect for us because God loves us so much that He will give us everlasting life, then God cannot reveal the Wisdom of your question.
You see, God loves all people, and continually gives us information building until we have enough faith in those truths that He will make evident, and therefore, we either will reject Him or trust in Him the rest of our lives.
He just wants to love you and give you a blessed life. He doesn't want to take anything away from you, unless it's not good for your benefit.  That's all He wants to do, and is waiting with open arms.  
Take care, and remember,
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.   John 3:16    
In Christ, iconHis  

[Left Coast]

Bronzesnake
This is probably my last or close to my last post on this forum.
You say you will no longer carry on with me, so be it. I feel I must reply since you have perverted my words and made false statements concerning what I have said.
It is going to take more than one post I could have made it much longer, there is a lot of material that supports my stand in the OT and NT.

L.C.

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

 No, it doesn't...it implies it.

It only implies it in your mind, I also used to be of the same mind.
Why not let God define what He means by whosoever.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Whosoever is those God has drawn. There is no mention of freewill here. It is all Gods work.

I know full well where the word comes from, and just because you pointed it out doesn't mean you understand it's meaning - as a matter of fact - it's quite clear that you do not understand it's meaning. I will show you the proper meaning of 'pas' at the end of this post my friend.
 Your explanation of "whosoever" is just ridiculous...

You have twisted my words, I don’t think you did it on purpose.
Forgive me for my failure to explain clearly.  I hope by the end of this letter I can clarify. At no time did I intend to claim whosoever means, “those I have chosen”, not sure how you got there but I will accept fault.

L.C. Quote...

“Whosoever believes”, the bible is crystal clear, it is His work that we believe. The whosoever are those he has chosen, and drawn to Him.

 Why use the word "whosoever" then? That word is seriously out of context in every verse which it appears with your incorrect interpretation of the word. Why even use that word at all? -  why not simply say "My chosen"

The definition of the word ‘pas’ that I gave in an earlier post will hopefully help clear this up:

One of the problems that you are having comes from a misunderstanding of the Greek word <pas>.
The translators recognized that the word ‘pas’ has many meanings, so it was translated in many ways.
all 748 times, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
John 3:16 -- whosoever <pas>
1 Timothy 2:4 -- all <pas> men
Etc.
If we look at other places where this word shows up we might begin to see other possibilities.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John was a very busy guy.

Not only does ‘pas’ have many translations but those translations have many meanings.
When you look at the two examples above you should hopefully see that the word ‘pas’ can refer to an exclusive group of people. There are other times when it is inclusive.
If all we had was, “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” we could agree that it was inclusive, meaning open to everyone. But the bible must be taken as a whole, not isolating scripture.
God shows us with John 6:44 that in this instance it is an exclusive word limited to those He has drawn.
Why ignore this scripture?
In John 6:37 God uses this word ‘pas’ to point out that it is referring to an exclusive group.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

You can choose to follow your English dictionary definition if you wish, I am going to trust in Gods definition, as it is found in the bible.

1Th 2:12  That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Has He called you?

If that's true, then how do you explain the following verse...

 Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 Here's the way you understand that verse...

Those who I have chosen, shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

That is not my understanding at all, you are putting words in my mouth, or keyboard.
Why the attacks? Why the false witness?

Mr 10:19  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

It is not very becoming. And it is not necessary.

[Left Coast]

Part 2

L.C.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour? Or are you hoping He has chosen you?

The answer to both questions is, YES!
The question is have YOU been born again?
Why do you reject John 6?
Why do you reject so much of the bible? The ENTIRE BIBLE preaches election.

Ro 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

1Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Mans pride leads Him to think he is in control, we’re control freaks. Picture the guy that is lost and refuses to ask directions, “gotta do it myself.”
We have a need to be in control of our salvation not really surrendering everything to God. Not accepting Gods authority over our life.
 

This discussion is over for me L.C. You are in a severe minority on this forum with your convoluted reasoning my friend.

Yes, and Spurgeon also had convoluted reasoning. As did Knox, Newton, and so many others.
Jesus and His followers have always been a minority.
If you want to be part of a majority you might want to consider Hinduism, if you want to be in the majority of those claiming Christ you might want to consider becoming a Catholic.
I could answer all your whosoever verses but you have chosen to turn your ear away from truth to cling to your works.
If He wanted ALL to be saved why did Jesus speak in parables?

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

In your mind - why did God create all the unsaved people?
If - as you mistakenly believe, God has pre-selected His team - then why bother creating all the others who will simply be fried, regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not?

Your God kills babies, and the mentally retarded. Your God enjoys watching people suffer, who haven't got any chance at salvation whatsoever.

That is not Jesus Christ my friend - no matter how you slice it.

Bronzesnake.

We are all created unsaved, we are all born spiritually dead. You don’t understand how bad it is.

Ro 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.


There is none that seeketh after God, therefore the whosoever that would choose by freewill is none.
To choose God would be good verse 12 there is none that doeth good.
My God judges mankind justly, there is salvation for babies and the mentally retarded WITH my gospel NOT yours.
Your gospel would leave them out so you INVENTED an age of accountability, adding it to the bible.
But your age of accountability can’t address those that have lived on this earth for a period of time and are now living brain damaged.
You have no salvation for those that did not accept Jesus before Alzheimers, brain injuries, or other illnesses took their intellectual ability to choose.  
Yours is the one that condemns.
You make salvation a requirement of man to choose, so you would have God condemning men for not choosing Him when it would have been impossible to do so.
If they have never heard of Him they can’t choose Him.

Ro 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We are the dry bones:

Eze 37:1 ¶  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

John

[Bronzesnake]

   L.C.

 

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

 Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am insulting you John. Why are you "struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not" That's foolish my friend. This is a forum where people debate biblical doctrine. You didn't expect everyone to agree with you all the time did you? if there was no difference of opinion there would be no debate would there? How can we expect to learn anything if we all agree with each other all the time?

 I encourage you to stay my friend. I know it is difficult to gage a persons attitude through reading a post - sometimes it appears as though there's anger, or disrespect aimed at us - when in fact, that is not the case at all.

 I said I was through debating with you because we have covered this topic to it's fullest. I don't mean to imply that I will never debate, or discuss with you on other topics my friend. I have actually enjoyed our interaction, and look forward to more.

 My belief on this topic can be simplified thusly...

 I go into a store wanting to purchase greatly needed supplies for my family. The store owner informs me that I am well over my credit limit, and he can no longer sell me supplies until I pay up my debt. I am in danger of loosing my home, and starving to death. Just then, a man walks over to me and says... "I have overheard your conversation with the owner of this store. He is my father and he asked me to come to you and offer to pay your debt. He also told me that if you accepted this offer - I could pay for your supplies from this day forward - you no longer have to be in debt ever again. Will you accept this free gift?"

 You see - the father drew his son to me. Now, it's up to me whether I accept the free gift or not. He doesn't force Himself on us. He wants us to love Him - to accept Him of our own free will - from our hearts.

 This is your scenario...

 I walked into a store for the first time wanting to buy supplies for my family. The owner called me over to him and said..." From this day forward, I will pay for all your supplies whether you want me to or not."

 The verses I posted in regards to the word "whosoever" are easily discerned. The meaning can only be taken one way, or else the verses do not make sense. I tried to point that out to you. I wasn't trying to be insulting or sarcastic. We can easily understand the meaning of the word "whosoever" even if, as you claim, there are several different meanings, by the context of the verse. It's not difficult my friend.

 God does draw us to Him - however, we decide whether we accept His free gift or not.

 I do not want to argue this any further my friend. You have your belief, I have mine. Let's leave this topic at that.

 I do look forward to engaging in discussion with you in the near future John.

God Bless you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

This is my last post. At least that is my intent.

  L.C.

 

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

 Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am insulting you John.

It is not the disagreeing.
You put words in my mouth that I did not say.
You twisted my words.
There is especially no need for statements such as:

You are in a severe minority on this forum with your convoluted reasoning my friend.

That is not debate and that is not constructive.
If my reasoning is convoluted then so are those men I mentioned and so are the founders of the Southern Baptists, such as James P. Boyce: http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html
Or James Montgomery Boice former senior minister at Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia: http://www.tenth.org/boiceupdate.html and http://www.reformedreader.org/t.u.l.i.p.htm
What is the purpose of those kinds of comments, other than to try to insult?
Don’t jump to any conclusions here, I am not hurt, I read such comments with a certain sad humor. Sadness that you feel you need to use them. Humor that you think it accomplishes anything.
I have been married and divorced twice from the same woman, I have heard insults.
 

Why are you "struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not" That's foolish my friend. This is a forum where people debate biblical doctrine. You didn't expect everyone to agree with you all the time did you? if there was no difference of opinion there would be no debate would there? How can we expect to learn anything if we all agree with each other all the time?

I thought and expected that debate is what would take place on this forum.
What has taken place is similar to ethnic cleansing.
Catholic doctrine is closer to your beliefs than mine, so what I am saying is not a result of debates against me.
Post after post is being sanitized, as any reference to Catholic is being removed. In the process many excellent posts showing the errors of the Catholic faith are also being removed. Posts that are faithful to the gospel and of benefit to anyone searching for truth -- removed.
Many people spent many hours in research and typing.
I am a lyxdesic hunt and peck typist who’s fingers often miss the target. Do you know how frustrating it is to have to retype because I missed shift and hit caps lock. i DIDN’T INTEND TO SHOUT SO i RETYPE.
A lot of hard work callously thrown away.
The name of this forum is christiansunite.
A more proper definition is:
Christians, as we define them, unite. If you don’t fit our definition then you are not a Christian and not invited to share the basis your faith. Even though most of the world considers you Christian, we do not, so get out of town.
It is an adversarial position, inviting problems.
I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.

Heidi,

Heidi, you are lost. Many here will help you and pray for you.

Love,
Tom

Only God knows the heart.

Mt 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is especially interesting since Heidi stated Jesus was her Lord and saviour, isn’t that the freewill requirement? There is no doubt that she did not have a full understanding of the gospel, but that comes in God’s time.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

[Left Coast]

The gospel offends and I expect people to be offended, like you have been with what I say. But I back up everything with scripture. I want to make sure you know it is not the creation of my mind.
A little over 10 years ago I was a freewill believer like you, fortunately God had humbled me earlier by showing me that something I absolutely positively knew was right was wrong. You see 15 years earlier I was positive that reincarnation was the truth. I wasted many years believing in that garbage. I was too proud to look at the other side.
So when I began to become aware of the teaching of election I was a little more willing to admit I could be wrong in freewill just as I was with reincarnation, I was receptive to learning truth.
I approach these debates with the possibility that election is wrong, when I give verses such as those in John 6 I look to see if you can address them properly, you haven’t. There is no debate.
You have my scenario a little off.
In my scenario I have committed crimes against the King.. I am in prison, and I am guilty. There is no way out. By all rights I should rot there.
All I can do is cry out for mercy. The King hears my cry and chooses to have mercy on me.
Another scenario, and a true story:
Most every year my employer deposits extra money in my bank account at Christmas for a bonus. It is just there I don’t actively accept it the money is a free gift.
Such is Gods gift.
Another scenario:
As soon as you walk in to the hospital you are told your identical twin brother has died. You have a heart attack and also die. His heart is put in you and you live, how can you take the heart out?

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
 

The verses I posted in regards to the word "whosoever" are easily discerned. The meaning can only be taken one way, or else the verses do not make sense.

That is your opinion, they do make sense, you just don’t see that yet.
I understand how you see it, I used to see it that way too.
That was not an insult to me, but convoluted? That was a weak insult.
You put words in my mouth, I did not say.

Here's the way you understand that verse

It doesn’t really hurt me, but you didn’t need to go there.

Now that you have been shown the correct meaning of the word "whosoever" you might be able to grasp a truth which has so far eluded you my friend.

Your definition has not eluded me at all, I used to agree with it. I was blind but now I see.

 

God does draw us to Him - however, we decide whether we accept His free gift or not.

That contradicts scripture:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2Th 2:13 ¶  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do look forward to engaging in discussion with you in the near future John.

God Bless you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

I hope you don’t misunderstand me, I have very much enjoyed my discussions with you.
What I have called insults I consider very minor and not really a distraction.
It was the policy makers and enforcers of policy that were so bothered by the insults and debate that they have chosen to sanitize the forum.
I point out insults to show that it was not something limited to Catholic debates.
There are many forums out there that are open to all, I am 52 years old, I am not a baby, I don’t need a censor to protect me from what is said.
Since I believe everything is in Gods hands I have no fear that someone would be lead astray by a fast talking Catholic.
Because I believe it is God that gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear I have no problem with leaving Heidi’s remarks about God the father and Jesus the son available for all to see. In fact if there are others that are struggling with the question I think you and I and others did an excellent job of explaining her error.
I am not leaving this forum because of anything you have said or done.
I happen to enjoy and learn from debate.
After debating with Michael I realized my understanding of a verse of scripture was wrong, he showed me my error --- he was in error also, but now I have a greater understanding.
Ollie did an excellent job of presenting an alternate viewpoint to another verse, I don’t necessarily agree with his interpretation but it was a valid point to make.
There are many other examples I could give.
Some people may need to have a censor to protect them. I need a little more honesty.
I am going to miss many people here, and many people have been booted off that I will miss.
Maybe I will see you somewhere else.
I usually pick names that reflect where I live.
Eugene, Oregon on the Left Coast of the USA. In the Willamette valley. I have Wood Ducks in my back yard. Etc.
I pretty much always let people know my name is John.

Ps 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Ro 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Ex 28:3  And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Ac 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ac 10:41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Ro 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ga 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God Bless,
John

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 First of all - If I have offended you, I do honestly apologize. The word convoluted, is not a derogatory word John. It simply means, Intricate; complicated. Which I truly believe some of your reasoning on this topic is. That's not an insult my brother.

 I do not want to continue with this topic. I respect your belief - please respect mine.

I think you are making a mistake leaving this forum, although I do understand your reasons why. It's not easy being a moderator, and sometimes people post using many different usernames. Some posts are somewhat controversial, although not banable, while under the guise of another username, the same person might cross the line. We just don't know what the moderator knows John. I have been a moderator myself, and it is a difficult job trying to make a forum a place where many different people can post and feel comfortable, without being heckled, or attacked. A lot of good people have left this forum because of being attacked, or insulted.

 We can't really judge the moderator. He knows things we do not. The moderator here is a faithful Christian, and a good man. He has made mistakes, and has openly admitted as much and has asked for forgiveness because of them. He is doing a good job and he needs our support, even if we might not agree with his decisions John.

 This forum will lose an honest, faithful poster if you decide to leave. Think of the new Christians who may simply be browsing this forum who you may be helping without even knowing it. It would be a shame for that to happen. I have learned from your posts...remember when you challenged me to find scriptures which described those who never knew of the bible being automatically forgiven? I believed this was the case. However, when you challenged me on it, I admitted I was wrong, and posted scriptures which proved you were correct on that one. I actually dug into scripture and learned from you on that one.

 If you decide to leave, I respect that decision John. I would still encourage you to reconsider though.

Bless you John...

Bronzesnake (John)

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 I actually have stayed up all night thinking about our debate.
I know I have stated that I no longer wish to discuss this topic with you, however - after some deep thought and prayer, I came to the conclusion that I should do my honest best to guide you to what I truly believe is the God's Truth about predestination.
 I believe that you are an honest Christian, and that if I could present you with a convincing argument, you would not be too proud to admit you were wrong. I will do likewise, if you should present to me, convincing evidence which would make me realize that I have been wrong. In that case, I will admit my mistake.

 Therefore, I will continue this discussion, at least for a while.

 I would like to pray openly, right now, before I begin, that our Father in Heaven guide my thoughts and keep me from insulting, or offending you in any way L.C. Amen...

John ( Bronzesnake )

 To continue On Next Post..

[nChrist]

I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.
Quote from: blackeyedpeas on July 10, 2004, 04:50:23 AM
Heidi,

Heidi, you are lost. Many here will help you and pray for you.

Love,
Tom
 
 
Only God knows the heart.

Hello Left Coast,

There was really nothing to judge when Heidi posted all over the forum that Jesus Christ is not God. So, I would have no clue who she believes in. Those in Islam also believe in Jesus, but he was just a man or a prophet according to them. Since Jesus is the only WAY, they couldn't possibly be saved. That's simply a statement, on their part, that they are lost.

I have no problem at all in calling you brother, even though we disagree with a lot of things. We can each pick and choose what we wish to debate and simply agree to disagree.

I would second the thoughts of Bronzesnake. I hope that you reconsider and stay.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Bronzesnake]

 This is going to be very long L.C.
and much of the following comes from different sources, including Dr. Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, and
Michael Bronson.

here we go my friend...

I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The Bible says people are going to Hell against God’s will. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:34 says, "For there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame."

The Bible says people are perishing because no one has brought them the message. Hosea 4:6 says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

 You believe that before God created the universe, He selected certain people to go to Heaven and the rest go to Hell. Yet, the Bible says Hell was created for the fallen angels, not us (Matthew 25:41).

In your belief, the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. That God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view..

1) There are hundred of verses in the Bible that clearly show God changing His mind and altering His plans because of our actions or inactions.

2) There are many evil and sinful things going on in the world. Do we really want to say God forcibly made people commit these heinous acts?

3) We cannot be held accountable for our sins if we have no say or choice in any of our actions. It would be unjust to send a person to Hell for something he did not choose to do.

Some selective salvationists believe God preplanned people’s lives (forced them to become Christians and perform great services for Him). If this were true, you would think He would have planned lives that would consistently glorify Him. Instead, we find many of His leaders (Saul, David, Samson, Solomon, etc) made some major blunders and had their years of service cut short.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

God said to the whole Nation of Israel, "Seek me and live" (Amos 5:4). God was offering his plan of salvation to the whole Nation of Israel. Yet the Bible clearly says not all of the Israelites became believers. This means many of the people God wanted to go to Heaven ended up going to Hell.

The Bible says we can resist God. For example, Matthew 23:37 says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
This means some people were resisting God’s call to salvation. It also means some people went to Hell against His desire.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."

There are dozens of verses that talk about how we can be easily led astray from God and salvation. This shows our eternal destinies have not been pre-planned.

The Bible says our surroundings can greatly influence our eternal destiny. For example, Matthew 19:24 says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven"

Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual damnation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.

  I believe predestination is inconsistent with observable facts

If selective salvation were true, you would expect an even distribution of Christians all over the world. In contrast to this, we find areas with very high concentrations of Christians and other areas with very low concentrations of Christians.

If selective salvation were true, exposure to the gospel should not have any impact on how many people become Christians in a given area. Yet, areas with a strong gospel witness have a high number of believers and areas with little or no gospel witness have few or no new Christians.

If selective salvation were true, parental influence should not increase or decrease a child’s chance of becoming a Christian. However, we find children raised in Christian homes are much more likely to become Christians than children who are raised in atheistic homes. In fact, children who are raised by strong, mature Christians are much more likely to become Christians than children raised by weak and spiritually immature Christians.

The Bible has over a hundred verses that clearly say salvation is offered to "everyone," - "whosoever," and the whole "world." Yet, selective salvationists say salvation is only offered to the select few. To get around these verses, selective salvationists say these verses are only talking about the elect. In other words, verses that say "… salvation is offered to everyone" should actually be read as "… salvation is offered to everyone of the elect." To force this type of interpretation on hundreds of verses, selective salvationists have violated multiple basic rules of Biblical interpretation.
( This is not intended as an insult L.C., just an observation )

In addition to the above problem, there are many verses where this type of forced conclusion still would not work. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." Using your rules of interpretation, this verse should read: "He is the atoning sacrifice for the elect’s sins, and not only for the elect’s sins, but also for the sins of the elect." (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth my friend, I'm simply trying to point out the facts)

selective salvationists say God has chosen certain people over other people. Yet, the Bible says God does not pick one person over another. For example, Acts 10:34 says, "God is no respecter of persons."

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, salvation is open to everyone in the world. What would God say differently in the Bible (from what He has already said) that would show salvation is open to everyone in the world? The Bible already has over 100 verses saying salvation is offered to everyone.

God "sought a man after His own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14). If selective salvation is true God already knows the mindset of each person (He’s the one who preprogrammed each person’s life). If He already knows each person’s mindset, why was He searching for people with a particular mindset?

David was "a man after God’s own heart" (Acts 13:22). If God created the elect’s heart and mindset, wouldn’t all of the elect be people after God’s own heart?

Joshua said, "Choose you this day who you shall serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). If God already chose our destiny for us, why was it so important for Joshua to make this admonition?

To Continue On Next post...

 

[Bronzesnake]

Problems caused by the predestination doctrine

If people are predestined for salvation, parental influence will not increase a child’s chance of becoming a Christian. If this is true, Christian parents should have the same number of Christian children as atheistic parents. This of course is not true.

selective salvationists counter the above problem by saying children of the elect are also elect. This approach creates many new problems. For example...

Since Adam and Eve were part of the elect, all of their descendants (which means everyone) should also be part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Noah was part of the elect, all of his family and their descendants (which means everyone) should also be part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Abraham was part of the elect, his son Ishmael was also one of the elect. This would mean all of his descendants (the Arab nations) are also part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Isaac was part of the elect, his twin sons (Jacob and Esau) were also part of the elect. Yet, some selective salvationists say God hated Esau and condemned him to Hell. If children of the elect are also elect, Esau should be one of the elect.

If children of the elect are also part of the elect, then 100% of the children from Christian parents would be Christians. We don’t, however, find this.

 

Predestination is inconsistent with the nature of God

The Bible provides us with a general description of God’s nature. It describes Him as a loving, compassionate, fair, and righteous being. The doctrine of selective salvation totally contradicts this description. A basic premise of selective salvation is God chose to love or hate certain people purely on an arbitrary basis. This contradicts the nature of God outlined in the Bible. For example...

You would expect a loving God would love all of His creation.

You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."

"Hate" is a strong emotion. It is an emotion developed in response to an offense. To passionately hate someone who has not yet existed does not even make sense.

A person who is "sovereign" over another being will treat the other being in a manner consistent with his own nature. A dog owner, for example, is basically "sovereign" over his dog. Yet, a good owner would never mistreat his dog. Likewise, a sovereign God who is loving and compassionate would never mistreat His creation simply because "He can." Arbitrarily condemning a person to Hell before he is even created (with no choice, say, or recourse) is not the actions of a loving and compassionate God. A good person (sovereign or not) would never mistreat his subjects.

   

Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose jesus, and He also chose you)...

 L.C.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour? Or are you hoping He has chosen you?
 

The answer to both questions is, YES!

You told me that God can’t be sovereign if we have a free will to make choices. You believe that giving us the ability to make choices would be the same as us telling God Almighty what to do. You believe that God can’t be God if He is not in full control of everything.

The issue of choice is the Achilles’ heel of predestination. The doctrine falls apart when the issue of choice is closely examined. There are many aspects of "choice" that contradict the doctrine of selective salvation. Following are some examples...

There are hundreds of verses that say we have the ability to make choices. Either the Bible is lying or we have the ability to make choices.

Love is an emotion that is earned. You can’t force someone to love you. In order for us to truly have the ability to love God, we need to have the ability to reject Him. You can’t love if you don’t have the ability to hate L.C..

We would not be able to ask God to alter events if everything is already set in stone. There are dozens of verses that say our prayers will prompt God to respond. Even the great spiritual leaders of the Bible understood the power of prayer. There are hundreds of verses showing this.

Our actions should never provoke an emotional response from God if He has preprogrammed all of our decisions and actions. This would be as illogical as me turning on a light switch and becoming angry when the light turns on. It is obvious from the Bible we can provoke a response from God.

There are dozens of verses showing our obedience can produce a positive response from God.

There are hundreds of verses showing God can be provoked to anger or jealousy by our sins.

The Bible says God holds some of our choices in high esteem. The only way our choices could have value to God is if our choices were made from a free heart. Choices that are forced on us would hold no intrinsic value to God. Following are some examples...

The life of Job demonstrates that even Satan understands we have the freedom to make choices. Satan knows we often choose to curse God when we are faced with great adversity. It brought great pleasure and glory to God when Job remained faithful in the midst of his great suffering. There would not have been any exceptional glory or victory for God if Job was forced to remain faithful.

None of our decisions would have any value if our actions are forced on us. If predestination is true, a person’s decision to return a penny that doesn’t belong to him would bring as much glory, honor, and pleasure to God as a poor person’s decision to return $100 million that doesn’t belong to him.

There are many places in the Bible that say God places high value on obedience. Why should God be so pleased with obedience if all of our actions are forced on us?

As we saw in the above paragraphs, God is pleased when we make good choices. If these "small" choices bring pleasure to God, think about how much pleasure it would bring God when we would make a good choice on the most important decision (salvation)?

The parables of the lost items (lost sheep, lost coin, and the lost son – Luke 15:3-32) are another example why selective salvation can’t be true. These parables show there is great joy when a lost item is recovered. The Bible says this is especially true when a lost sinner is saved.

You would expect this type of reaction from God with open salvation, but you would not expect it with selective salvation. In fact, with selective salvation, there is no cause for celebration when a person gets saved. There are no lost souls who are salvaged. There are no people rescued from the gates of Hell. All of the people who get "saved" were actually saved long before the world was created. These parables don’t make sense if selective salvation is true. It would be like a person pretending to lose a coin and then throwing a large party when he "finds" it.

There is an accountability problem if all of our decisions and actions are forced on us. Here are some examples...

If all of our actions are forced on us, we can’t be held accountable for our actions. We can’t be punished for sins we were forced to commit.

The fact there are varying amounts of rewards in Heaven demonstrates we do have control over our choices.

The fact there are varying degrees of punishment in Hell shows we do have control over our choices.

To Continue On Next post...

 

[Bronzesnake]

 Confusing issues explained

Election deals with the selection for service; not salvation. In fact, it couldn’t be talking about salvation. Jesus and the angels were part of the "elect," but they didn’t need to be saved. The Nation of Israel was part of the elect, but not all of them were saved.

Predestination simply means something has been predetermined to take place in the future. Although most Christians think of it in connection with the Bible, this concept is also found in the secular world. For example, anyone who becomes a policeman is predestined (predetermined) to have certain attributes (such as the authority to arrest people...right Tom?). As you can see, the word predestination does not need to have some mystical or divine implication.

Just as man can predetermine certain things to take place in the future, so can God. As we will see in the upcoming chapters, God has predetermined that the people who become Christians will obtain certain attributes (such as being conformed to the image of His Son). Nowhere in the Bible does it say God has predetermined to arbitrarily send some people to Heaven and the remainder to Hell.

The verse "Esau I hated" is often used to support the doctrine of selective salvation. Yet, if you look at the life of Esau, there is no evidence God hated or deplored him. It is possible the word "hate" was used as a contrast. There are several places in the Bible that uses the word "hate" when it doesn’t really mean hate. For example, we are told to hate our parents and ourselves if we want to follow God. If you look at the chapter dealing with this issue, it appears that the statement probably means, "I have chosen to use Jacob (to be the forefather of the Messiah) and not Esau."

I've read that verses talking about God hardening Pharaoh’s heart have also been used to support selective salvation. God, however, did not harden Pharaoh’s heart toward salvation. Rather, He hardened Pharaoh’s heart toward Moses’ requests. God only hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the direction he had already chosen for himself.  

selective salvationists have also used the verses that say, "I have chosen you" to support selective salvation. It is true God has chosen us (the whole world) to be saved. God’s choice of redemption applies only to the human race; it does not apply to the fallen angelic race that's one of the reasons satan and his demons are so angry with God, and why they hate us so much John. We are offered salvation through the shed blood of Jesus, and they are not offered the same.

Romans 9:21 says God is the potter and we are the clay. Selective salvationists often use this verse as proof God has chosen certain people for salvation. This verse is talking about service, not salvation. There are several places in the Old Testament that use the illustration of the potter and clay. These verses refer to Israel as being the clay. Since only a portion of the Israelites were believers, these verses could not be referring to salvation. These verses are talking about God using the Nation of Israel to accomplish a task.

 I guess I'll stop here and let you respond John. After that, I'll continue if you like.

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

Hi Bronzesnake,
I have thought about this, I don’t want to end this as long as there is an interest.
I will not join any new topics but I will continue this topic at least until work sends me out of town for a significant time.
My reply will also be very long.

This is going to be very long L.C.
and much of the following comes from different sources, including Dr. Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, and Michael Bronson.

I don’t know anything about Michael Bronson, but I am very familiar with Van Impe, and Lindsey. Both of these men interpret scripture out of their minds.
Mans mind is very creative and can come up with all sorts of things.
For example Lindsey found a word in Ezekiel 38 that he decided meant Russia. The word <ro’sh>.

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief <ro’sh> prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

This word ‘ro’sh’ appears 598 times in the bible beginning with:

Ge 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads <ro’sh>.

There is no way “ro’sh” means Russia, this kind of reckless teaching is indicative of the way Lindsey teaches, out of his creative mind instead of the bible.
I was watching Van Impe many years ago and he made all sorts of ridiculous statements that he couldn’t support with scripture such as the locusts of Revelation being Huey Helicopters. One claim he made I would like to address in detail.
He claimed that Satan calling down fire from heaven would be nuclear bombs. The bible doesn’t talk about Huey Helicopters and it doesn’t talk about nuclear bombs.

Re 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Because this prophecy is being fulfilled today and is one very important sign we are very close to the end I would like to explain this prophecy - with the bible, not by pulling things out of thin air with the mind.
It may seem to be convoluted reasoning to you but please spend a little time thinking about it.
When I read about wireless networking it seems pretty convoluted to me.
Fire from heaven refers to judgment.

2Ki 1:10  And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

It was suggested to Jesus that he call down fire from heaven.

Lu 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Jesus replied:

Lu 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

After Jesus left the garden of Gethsemane he was met by a group that came to take him just as they came to take Elijah in 2Kings. Jesus was indeed a man of God, by all rights he should have called down fire from heaven.
If he had he would not have finished paying for our sins. He began his work in the garden he finished it when he rose from the dead, I will cover this in detail later. A substitute for fire was used.

John 18:3  Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
John 18:4  Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5  They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.  
 
The substitute for fire from heaven is to cause people to fall backward. Judas was there, Satan was there in Judas.

Lu 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

To fall backward is another sign of judgment.

Ge 49:16  Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Satan understood the substitute, he was not able to call literal fire down from heaven.

1Ki 18:23  Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
1Ki 18:24  And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Baal could not bring down fire from heaven:

1Ki 18:26  And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1Ki 18:29  And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

Today we have a phenomenon taking place in churches called “the slaying of the spirit” you have probably seen Benny Hinn do this on TV where people are caused to fall backward - the substitute for fire from heaven.
You may not agree with what I have said, but it is all from the bible.
Van Impe’s nuclear bombs answer for fire from heaven comes from the mind.
I have found that a great deal of the freewill salvation plan comes from the mind.
Many years ago an elderly man who had been a bible teacher for over 50 years showed me that truth comes by comparing scripture with scripture.

1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We may not always understand what is in view but the scripture does not contradict. If we find ourselves or someone else saying, “I think this means...” when we are not using the bible to support the exact meaning, be wary, be doubtful and be suspicious.

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

End of intro