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Jonathan David
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« on: June 14, 2004, 03:22:30 PM »

tell me. what makes you beleive in god? there is no proof anywhere. I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true. the truth is you dont really know. the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know. you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?

i'm agnostic by the way
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michael_legna
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2004, 03:34:33 PM »


I believe in God because His grace led me to believe in Him and my free will cooperated with that grace.

Faith is a difficult thing to defend logically because it is not logical.  If I had enough evidence to prove God existed then I would KNOW He existed and I would no longer BELIEVE in Him in the sense of having faith.  Faith ends where knowledge begins.

But there is some evidence to support ones faith.  It is not just because my parents believed.

First there is the whole mystery of how things came to be (and don't go off trying to say it is all figured out by the scientist - because I am a nuclear physicist - with a passion for astronomy and so I know the explanations better than you do and they are not sufficient).

Next there is the whole issue of martyrdom.  The original members of the Church went to their death rather than deny the teachings of Christ as God- something they would not have done if they were just tagging along on some cult joy ride.

The Bible might be fiction, but if it is it is a very good read as it keeps being supported again and again in terms of its historical accuracy (something amazing for a book written over a period of 1000 years or more by many different authors).

There are alot of other arguments but I like to paraphrase the old adage about miracles.

To those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who do not no explanation is possible.

So yes we are betting the ranch on our faith, but then you are betting the ranch on your unbelief too.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2004, 03:52:17 PM »

ML,
For a nuclear physicist, that was eloquently stated.  

Wait a minute!  Are you a nuclear physicist or a newcular physicist???   Grin  Grin  Wink  (He-he-he - even Dubya would grin at that one!)

Yours in Christ,
JN

JD,
The 'proof' is in the pudding.  Smiley
JN
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michael_legna
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2004, 04:05:59 PM »


Quote
Wait a minute!  Are you a nuclear physicist or a newcular physicist???   Grin  Grin  Wink  (He-he-he - even Dubya would grin at that one!)

As Walt Kelly in his classic comic strip Pogo pointed out - It is pronounced new-clear which is strange because it is not very new and definitely not very clear.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
C C
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2004, 04:09:23 PM »

 Grin
I think statistically--and you can do anything with numbers--but for my own personal experience in life, I'm finding out that folks that yearn for mercy and justice wind up hoping for a higher power that makes things right.

Folks that like the position they are in in life, want everyone to think that the way things are is they way they need to stay--obviously they don't hope for something better.

I believe because when I really needed help, miracles have happened.  

And then when I really don't need help but just want it really bad, I expect miracles to happen and they don't that happens too.

What I'm finding out is that those folks that always do their best to help others, and always hope for the best for others are inclined to hope there is a higher power to make things right some day some way.

And for folks that want to justify their ways and what they do, but they don't hope for others and worse yet, don't want to help others and actually hurt others in their pursuit, they don't want to believe there's a higher power to make things right.  FOLKS THAT WANT TO GET AWAY WITH ALL SORTS OF STUFF THAT THEIR HEART TELLS THEM IS WRONG, THOSE FOLKS ARE THE MOST ANTI-HIGHER POWER.  They don't want to change and they don't want to believe that there is someone that's going to hold them accountable.

If you know there's someone that's going to hold you accountable to all that you do, and you know you do stuff that's wrong, you wont want to believe it.  It doesn't make it go away.  You'll still be accountable.



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Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you would include not finding your neighbor's biggest fault and then harping on it as if it were your mission.
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2004, 04:46:54 PM »

Quote
tell me. what makes you beleive in god? there is no proof anywhere.
Faith! Faith is not proven by physical means except it brings about the works of God in a person and these works of God in one show faith. Faith is also a work of God.

Quote
I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true. the truth is you dont really know.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 
Quote
the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know. you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?
The call of God's word brings one to faith and opens ones heart to the Holy Spirit when pricked by His word. One physically goes into the grave when they die. Their spirit goes back to God.

Quote
i'm agnostic by the way
It shows.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 04:50:22 PM by ollie » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 08:17:08 AM »

Quote
what makes you beleive in god?

Faith

Quote
there is no proof anywhere.

Unless you believe. If you believe the proof is everywhere: the world around us, the animals of the earth, birds of the sky, and fish of the sea; and your own face when you look in the mirror.

Quote
I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true.

So do I. However, when God speaks to you, there's nothing "stupid" about it.

Quote
the truth is you dont really know.

Yes, I do know. When God places a truth in your heart that can come from nowhere else, then you "know that you know that you know".

Faith is simple to a believer, complex to someone trying to believe, and "stupid" to the lost.

may God bless you (uh huh, he does even bless those who don't believe)

Peace
Gracey
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 10:14:42 AM »

I definitely think you can have knowledge of God! The NT talks about the knowledge of God through the spirit all the time! Jesus said; eternal life is this; that you KNOW the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." To me it's just like knowing a person. I can safely say that I know my husband exists. I don't just hope that he exists, I KNOW that he exists! Faith that comes from the spirit instead of "mustering it up" is the faith that lasts. That's why Jesus said that no one can snatch his true sheep out of his hand. But faith that is mustered up, will eventually crumble because it had no root. Jesus talks about lasting and unlasting "faith" using the three types of soil; rocky, thorny, and good soil. Only when the word falls on good soil will it last. The good soil lasts because the Holy Spirit because is the root.
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Neo
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 10:59:30 AM »

The problem with having knowledge of God, though, is this:

God is supernatural (a metaphysical statement), meaning that he exists beyond the framework of natural law and existence. This means that he must also be incomprehensible (an epistemological statement) because supernatural existence and epistemological transcendence are two sides of the same metaphysical coin.

Translation:

If God is supernatural, he is also unknowable. His nature is necessarily something totally alien to us, and we therefore can understand nothing about it through reason.

Thus, the only alternative is faith. Smiley
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 12:23:41 PM »

J.D.

God gave each one of us a measure of faith. We can use it in any manner we chose. You can believe in fluke evolution, creation, or, a combination of both. You can even chose to believe nothing at all. Faith and free will go hand in hand.

 However, God hasn't left us totally void of any evidence of His existence.
 If a person actually takes the time, he can find loads of evidence which corroborates God's Word, to the point where an intelligent, stable minded person can come to the conclusion that God is real, and His Word is 100% accurate.

 You have the free will to choose not to look for yourself. You can listen to people who tell you "there is no God", but you are potentially putting yourself in the position of choosing Hell over Heaven. God doesn't choose to send you to Hell, we decide that for ourselves when we choose to ignore Him.

There is scientific corroboration, there is historical corroboration and there is archaeological corroboration.

 The challenge is, for anyone to find any evidence which disproves a single Biblical account. Doctrine may be difficult to corroborate, however, as far as historical content, including locations, specific persons, and recorded historical events as recorded in the Bible, I can guarantee you that you can not put even a single recorded account into disrepute.

 Once you discover how reliable and accurate God is, you will be forced to reconsider your artiest "beliefs"

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Neo
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 01:29:16 PM »

If a person actually takes the time, he can find loads of evidence which corroborates God's Word, to the point where an intelligent, stable minded person can come to the conclusion that God is real, and His Word is 100% accurate.

Such as...?

(Fair warning: statements such as "just look in the mirror" or "it's all around you if you just look" will be summarily ignored.)

You have the free will to choose not to look for yourself. You can listen to people who tell you "there is no God", but you are potentially putting yourself in the position of choosing Hell over Heaven. God doesn't choose to send you to Hell, we decide that for ourselves when we choose to ignore Him.

(Emphasis mine.) You may want to rephrase that. It implies that our will supercedes God's will in the matter of one's eternal resting place.

There is scientific corroboration, there is historical corroboration and there is archaeological corroboration.

Again - such as...?

The challenge is, for anyone to find any evidence which disproves a single Biblical account.

The sacking of the city of Tyre. (Even God said he misjudged that one.)

Doctrine may be difficult to corroborate, however, as far as historical content, including locations, specific persons, and recorded historical events as recorded in the Bible, I can guarantee you that you can not put even a single recorded account into disrepute.

See above.

Once you discover how reliable and accurate God is, you will be forced to reconsider your artiest "beliefs"

1.) What's an "artiest"? Do you mean "artist" or "atheist"?
2.) If you mean "artist," I have no idea what it is that artists believe. I think there's kind of a broad range there. Wink
3.) If you mean atheist - well, that's different. Atheism is either "I do not believe in God" or "I believe there is no God." The former is not a belief. The latter is.

There is a world of difference between absence of belief and belief of absence.
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 02:58:03 PM »

tell me. what makes you beleive in god? there is no proof anywhere. I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true. the truth is you dont really know. the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know. you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?

i'm agnostic by the way
To say there is no proof anywhere is not true.
You may choose not to accept the proof, but it does exist.
There has to be something that began this whole physical world. Funny thing about physical matter it can’t come from a void.
On the other hand God is spirit, and not subject to the physical laws. Just because our limited brains can’t comprehend God doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist.
No one can truly know God unless God draws them first.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

My father was an agnostic, my mother did not discuss religion or go to church, yet they were better people than most “Christians” I have known.  Sad
I had never met a missionary, unless they had an LDS tag on their chest, and I never saw them for much more than a second. “Not interested, bye.”
I proclaimed myself to be an Atheist, I felt I could prove God did not exist.  Embarrassed
Slowly God lead me to first understand God was possible.
Then God was likely.
Then God was real.
It took about 15 years for God to lead me to truth.
For some people it happens quickly.
Perhaps it took so long because I was always happy and content in my sins.
I am fortunate to have almost always found enjoyment in life. Even the bad times were short.  Cool
For me real truth began with a prayer similar to:
God I don’t know what is true. Was Jesus a fake or was He God made into a man, I don’t know anything. Is truth in the bible or is it all lies. If the bible is true please show me the truth.
Then I would just read the bible. I didn’t read the headers at the top, I didn’t listen to commentaries, I didn’t go to church. I trusted that if there was a God -- He would show me.
I bounced around reading various books in no particular order. What I discovered was an amazing cohesiveness to the bible. Penned by several men over many centuries yet totally harmonious, without contradiction --- Amazing.  Grin
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
ollie
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2004, 05:50:40 PM »

The problem with having knowledge of God, though, is this:

God is supernatural (a metaphysical statement), meaning that he exists beyond the framework of natural law and existence. This means that he must also be incomprehensible (an epistemological statement) because supernatural existence and epistemological transcendence are two sides of the same metaphysical coin.

Translation:

If God is supernatural, he is also unknowable. His nature is necessarily something totally alien to us, and we therefore can understand nothing about it through reason.

Thus, the only alternative is faith. Smiley
Man can not know God in and of himself, but God knows his creation and reveals himself to man through His Spirit in these last days that which is necessary for man to know of Him and His gift of salvation.

 Acts 2:17.  "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19.  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 05:52:57 PM by ollie » Logged

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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2004, 08:56:42 PM »

Hi neo, or is that nero? Wink
 
My quote...
Quote
If a person actually takes the time, he can find loads of evidence which corroborates God's Word, to the point where an intelligent, stable minded person can come to the conclusion that God is real, and His Word is 100% accurate.

 
 
Such as...?
 
(Fair warning: statements such as "just look in the mirror" or "it's all around you if you just look" will be summarily ignored.)
 
Where would you like to begin? Historical accounts, archaeology? Science?
 
My quote...
Quote
You have the free will to choose not to look for yourself. You can listen to people who tell you "there is no God", but you are potentially putting yourself in the position of choosing Hell over Heaven. God doesn't choose to send you to Hell, we decide that for ourselves when we choose to ignore Him.
 

 
(Emphasis mine.) You may want to rephrase that. It implies that our will supercedes God's will in the matter of one's eternal resting place.
 
No it doesn't. It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...
 
 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 
My quote...
Quote
There is scientific corroboration, there is historical corroboration and there is archaeological corroboration.
 

 
Again - such as...?
 
 I could give you many examples, but I've seen your type before, nothing will be good enough.
 
 Here's an example from the Old Testament...
 
God says He created us from the dust of the ground.
 
 Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
 Here's a challenge for you neo. Find a single chemical found in the dirt of the earth that the human body is lacking.
 
 When you find out there isn't one, you'll no doubt claim "coincidence"
 
I'll continue...
 
THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE
The basic stages of the water cycle are described in the following three verses. The third verse, from Ecclesiastes, may also indicate the sphericity of the Earth.
 
Job 36:27-28 "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." -  
 
Job 26:8 "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." -  
 
 Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. -
 

The Bible describes the recirculation of water.
 
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
 

Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
 

Hydrothermal vents are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
 
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
 
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
 
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
 
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
 
The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.
 
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.
 

Statements Consistent With Anthropology
We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.

 

Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.
 

Statements Consistent With Meteorology
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

 

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
 

The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

 

Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
 
THE EXISTENCE OF SPACE
 
In the Book of Job it is claimed that the Earth is suspended in emptiness, or space, which Job describes as "nothing."
 
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." - Job 26:7 (NIV)
 

PLANTS PRECEDED ANIMALS
 
The Bible places the creation of plants (on the Third Day) before the creation of animals (on the Fifth and Sixth Days). Science is in agreement here. Fossil records demonstrate that plants appeared before animals, both in the sea and on the land.
 
Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. -  
 
Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." -  
 
Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. -  
 

ANIMAL LIFE BEGAN IN THE SEA
 
Most scholars will acknowledge that the Biblical Creation story is certainly incomplete from a scientific perspective. Yet, what the Bible does reveal in no way contradicts the scientific evidence. For example, science has learned that the first animal life appeared in the oceans. This correlates nicely with the Biblical record where the first mention of animals in the Bible places them in the Earth's waters.
 
Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures..."
 

THE OCEAN FLOOR
 
Beneath the ocean's vast surface was a mysterious, unknown world that possessed wonders beyond the scope of ancient man's technology. The sailors of that age were no doubt skilled in the art of sea travel. Yet the murky depths of the seas they sailed were as mysterious to them as the distant galaxies of space are to us. It is little wonder then that the writers and storytellers of old conjured up horrifying tales of sea monsters and terrifying creatures of the deep. Man's imagination is most productive when he possesses the least amount of knowledge.
 
Even today, there is much about the ocean that remains mysterious and undiscovered. But the contour of the ocean floor is no longer a mystery. We now know that the bottom of the ocean is comprised of great mountain ranges, deep trenches, volcanoes, valleys, and plateaus. We take this knowledge for granted today, yet such information has only been verified in the past century, with the advent of sonar and satellites. How is it possible, then, that the Bible speaks of "valleys" existing beneath the sea?
 
2 Samuel 22:16  The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. -
 
 
 
 All of these examples will no doubt be ambiguous or fluke coincidence to an atheist.
 
 Would you like some archaeology now? Perhaps some history?
 
Bronzesnake.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2004, 09:02:36 PM »

neo...

I said...
 "The challenge is, for anyone to find any evidence which disproves a single Biblical account."  
 
Your response...
Quote
The sacking of the city of Tyre. (Even God said he misjudged that one.)

 That is not proof of an inaccurate, or incorrect Biblical account neo. You will have to come up with an archaeological find that disputes a biblical claim, or a credible historical account from antiquity. There are none.

Once you discover how reliable and accurate God is, you will be forced to reconsider your artiest "beliefs"
 
Quote
1.) What's an "artiest"? Do you mean "artist" or "atheist"?
2.) If you mean "artist," I have no idea what it is that artists believe. I think there's kind of a broad range there.
3.) If you mean atheist - well, that's different. Atheism is either "I do not believe in God" or "I believe there is no God." The former is not a belief. The latter is.

 You'd better watch every letter from now on neo. You opened a can of worms here my friend.
Of course I won't be so childish.

Bronzesnake.
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