a question for all of you

[Bronzesnake]

neo...

And atheism wasn't responsible for the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the current conflict in the Middle East. We have religion to thank for that.

 Add up the death toll statistics from all religious sources, then add up the death toll statistics from all others neo.

Start out with deaths caused by Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot and work your way back from there.

 By the way, how is religion responsible for the Middle east conflict, in your opinion?

 Also, You don't seem to interested in any arguments based on evolution as opposed to creation. It would appear that you base your atheism on the fact that you don't approve of God's rules and regulations. Most of your anger based sarcasm is aimed at scriptures which show God in a bad light as far as His attitude toward unbelievers. You have a hard time accepting the reality of hell for the unbeliever in relation to a "loving God"

Your reasons to be here...

 

1.) Mental exercise.

Mission accomplished!  

2.) Entertainment.

Very revealing my friend, very revealing indeed!

3.) Hoping (perhaps naively) to change a few minds.

Bwahahahaaa!
 Ya, right. Hey, no, really, I believe you!  

Your time would be better spent in some of the more liberal, "anything goes" churches, where the congregation have sore bums from sitting on the fence. This web site is composed mostly of bible believing Christians, you won't convert anyone here, and you know it.

 Not only are you an angry man/woman, you also appear to have issues with honesty.

 Hey, I wish I could say it's been fun...bye neo.

Bronzesnake

 

[ollie]

I will make one point and then leave. The definition of God that I received is one exactly as I had expected. In an earlier post, someone said that God isnt to be found in human reasoning, yet the very language you used to describe him is derived from human reasoning. The word "IS" is the platform for the law of identity. but that wont matter to you, because you have a deeply rooted irrational premise which you have accepted and defended. I bid you a happy life...and a very very bland death, when non-existence sets in.

Oh, I am sorry I forgot one or two other defintions of God.

God is the giver of human reasoning.

God is I am, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.

Let your physical life be filled with knowledge and goodness of the Lord so that the physical death will find you free at last, free at last.

Ollie

[His_child]

Neo-
What are your thoughts on Jesus Christ?
Do you believe He ever lived?
Do you think He was who He said He was?

[Neo]

1.) Did Jesus ever live? It's a distinct possibility.

2.) Do I believe Jesus was God? (Do I believe in God at all?) No.

[His_child]

1.) Did Jesus ever live? It's a distinct possibility.

History tells us that He lived.
There were eye-witness accounts of a man named Jesus who died on the cross and rose again.
There were witnesses who heard Him claim to be God.

[ollie]

Human resurrection is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

Is there any documentation of Jesus' life outside of the Bible and the Quran?

As extraordinary as natural life itself for which there is no evidence of its beginning, but yet it is.

[Left Coast]

Bronzesnake,
I wish I had more time to contribute, this topic is moving faster than I can keep up. We seem to be a little off topic, but I would like to reply.

 I disagree with you on this one L.C.

Deuteronomy 1: 39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it and they shall possess it"

Remember Deut. 32 -- the suckling also.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

The scripture must be in harmony, as I understand your interpretation of Deuteronomy 1:39 it contradicts Psalms 58 and Isaiah 48.

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Deuteronomy 1:39 is referring the sin committed by the Jews concerning the promised land. If you are looking for an age of accountability out of this that would be age 20. The little ones and children this is talking about are those under age 20.

Numbers 14:29  Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 32:11  Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12  Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Numbers 32:13  And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
 
 

Another Scripture which we might consider is in 2 Samuel 12:22-23. David appeared to have little doubt that when his new little baby died, that child was safe...

 2 Samuel 12: 22-23 "So he said, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

 David had little doubt that - in some future state - he would meet up with his baby again.

David’s child was taken because of David’s sin.
David knew his son was saved. God gave him that comfort. The child did not make a freewill decision, God rescued him. Saved him.
God does save babies in exactly the same way every person is saved, it is entirely His action.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

These verses and so many more teach that God must choose us and draw us. He looses none that He has chosen.
I have not questioned the ability of God to save children. The problem arises when you try to establish an age of accountability.
There is much evidence that 20 cannot be the age, yet it is the only possibility available with scripture.
The age of accountability was invented by man to make the idea of freewill salvation work.
It is adding to the prophesy of the book.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

When we understand that salvation is 100% Gods work, and man can do nothing to guarantee his salvation we find that God not only saves the old and the young but He even saves the unborn, by changing their hearts, (born again B4 birth  ).

John the Baptist and Jeremiah were saved while still in the womb. True joy is salvation.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

 We are not arguing the fact that we all sin, even children are born into sin. We are debating whether children go to Hell.

 I'm saying, there is an age of accountability when we become responsible to choose or deny Jesus. Children are not able to comprehend this.

 God doesn't send children to Hell. There isn't any scriptures which tell us this.

 I believe I have provided more than ample scriptural evidence to show I am correct on this topic.

 You may choose to disagree, that's your prerogative.

What is the purpose of your argument? To show God destroys children?

Bronzesnake.

[Left Coast]

L.C.

 We are not arguing the fact that we all sin, even children are born into sin. We are debating whether children go to Hell.

 I'm saying, there is an age of accountability when we become responsible to choose or deny Jesus. Children are not able to comprehend this.

 God doesn't send children to Hell. There isn't any scriptures which tell us this.

 I believe I have provided more than ample scriptural evidence to show I am correct on this topic.

 You may choose to disagree, that's your prerogative.

What is the purpose of your argument? To show God destroys children?

Bronzesnake.

You havn't shown any scripture to support an age of accountability.
Sin demands a payment.
I'm in a hurry but I think you know the verse --- "the wages of sin is death". I am not sure I quoted it exactly.
Jesus paid for our sins.  
People don’t seem to really understand what Jesus did. He literally paid the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for every sin I ever have or ever will commit. This began at the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Let’s count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thurs. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night?
In the garden of Gethsemane.
That is when He began suffering. He began to pay for the sins of those He came to save. He literally suffered the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for each sin. We see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Our sins are washed clean by the blood of Christ. He was also in agony.

Every sin that has ever been commited demands payment, even the sins of children.
You are right children cannot comprehend Jesus that is why the idea of salvation being based on our freewill decision is impossible.
There is scripture that says God judges children, I gave it to you.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

There are some children that do go to hell, that is if you believe the bible, and I do.
The purpose of the arguement is to show that salvation is not by our work of believing. That is a work.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are control freeks, we want to be in control of everything; we cannot control our salvation.
The bible says babies are estranged from God.
If you are estranged from God YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The bible clearly makes it known children need Jesus also.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

The freewill gospel cannot be supported by the bible, and so they have to add such things as an age of accountability to make it work.
I am sorry but there is no such thing.

I had to whip this out quickly as I am headed out for a few days. If you have any questions, when I return I will answer the best I can.

John

[Bronzesnake]

L.C.

  What does God do with the mentally retarded? I guess God tosses them in the pit also.

 Our God is a loving, merciful God L.C. He is the righteous judge, do you understand what that means?
 Bronzesnake.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

[Bronzesnake]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

Ya! What he said!  

Thanks Tommy!

[His_child]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

BRAVO!

[ollie]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

Amen.

Ollie

[Left Coast]

Tom if you don‘t feel you are able to answer so be it.  

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

This isn’t talking about physically dying.
We are estranged from God as soon as we are born. It is very clear language -- from the womb. How much younger can your fictitious age of accountability be.

Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.

Then it is better not to evangelize because when someone knows the law they fall under Gods judgment.
It would have been better to have left the cannibals alone.
The fact is all, including babies, have sinned.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2 Samuel 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

This is speaking specifically about David’s child -- No mention of it referring to all babies. That is taking it completely out of context. As stated earlier David knew God had saved his child.

Matthew 18:1 ¶  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Matthew 18:2  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:5  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Matthew 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jesus explains that we must come to Jesus as a humble child. Somehow the children believe in Him -- verse 6. That cannot be done by freewill. So how does a baby believe?
The freewill gospel is not a humble gospel.
The freewill teaching is -- God I accept Jesus as my savior, now you have to save me.
The true gospel is reflected in the publican.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
 
There is no pride in the quest, no “Lord I accept Jesus so now you are obligated to save me.”
The only cry can be, “Lord have mercy.”

Matthew 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

This verse like 19:13-14 addresses those that ignore the children, shutting them up in nurseries away from the saving word of God.
There is an idea that because of the age of accountability we don’t need to bring those noisy children into the sanctuary. After all they interfere with the adults trying to listen to the pastor. That is how you despise children.  

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

God does choose to save some children, but the requirement is to hear the gospel. If a child has never heard the word then I am sorry to say there is no scripture that says they will be with the Lord.
That is why in Deuteronomy 32:25 the children are destroyed by God. The key is found in verse 15. Jeshurun lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation, (Christ). The word was not heard, the people went astray.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

The result:

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.