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tell me. what makes you beleive in god? there is no proof anywhere. I think its pretty stupid that people beleive in god just because their parents them it was true or a missionary told them it was true. the truth is you dont really know. the bible could just be a book of fiction. and you might never know. you could just go nowhere when you die. so, what makes you beleive?

i'm agnostic by the way

I believe in God because His grace led me to believe in Him and my free will cooperated with that grace.

Faith is a difficult thing to defend logically because it is not logical.  If I had enough evidence to prove God existed then I would KNOW He existed and I would no longer BELIEVE in Him in the sense of having faith.  Faith ends where knowledge begins.

But there is some evidence to support ones faith.  It is not just because my parents believed.

First there is the whole mystery of how things came to be (and don't go off trying to say it is all figured out by the scientist - because I am a nuclear physicist - with a passion for astronomy and so I know the explanations better than you do and they are not sufficient).

Next there is the whole issue of martyrdom.  The original members of the Church went to their death rather than deny the teachings of Christ as God- something they would not have done if they were just tagging along on some cult joy ride.

The Bible might be fiction, but if it is it is a very good read as it keeps being supported again and again in terms of its historical accuracy (something amazing for a book written over a period of 1000 years or more by many different authors).

There are alot of other arguments but I like to paraphrase the old adage about miracles.

To those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who do not no explanation is possible.

So yes we are betting the ranch on our faith, but then you are betting the ranch on your unbelief too.

ML,
For a nuclear physicist, that was eloquently stated.  

Wait a minute!  Are you a nuclear physicist or a newcular physicist???   ;D  ;D  ;)  (He-he-he - even Dubya would grin at that one!)

Yours in Christ,
JN

JD,
The 'proof' is in the pudding.  :)
JN

As Walt Kelly in his classic comic strip Pogo pointed out - It is pronounced new-clear which is strange because it is not very new and definitely not very clear.

 ;D
I think statistically--and you can do anything with numbers--but for my own personal experience in life, I'm finding out that folks that yearn for mercy and justice wind up hoping for a higher power that makes things right.

Folks that like the position they are in in life, want everyone to think that the way things are is they way they need to stay--obviously they don't hope for something better.

I believe because when I really needed help, miracles have happened.  

And then when I really don't need help but just want it really bad, I expect miracles to happen and they don't that happens too.

What I'm finding out is that those folks that always do their best to help others, and always hope for the best for others are inclined to hope there is a higher power to make things right some day some way.

And for folks that want to justify their ways and what they do, but they don't hope for others and worse yet, don't want to help others and actually hurt others in their pursuit, they don't want to believe there's a higher power to make things right.  FOLKS THAT WANT TO GET AWAY WITH ALL SORTS OF STUFF THAT THEIR HEART TELLS THEM IS WRONG, THOSE FOLKS ARE THE MOST ANTI-HIGHER POWER.  They don't want to change and they don't want to believe that there is someone that's going to hold them accountable.

If you know there's someone that's going to hold you accountable to all that you do, and you know you do stuff that's wrong, you wont want to believe it.  It doesn't make it go away.  You'll still be accountable.

Faith! Faith is not proven by physical means except it brings about the works of God in a person and these works of God in one show faith. Faith is also a work of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

  The call of God's word brings one to faith and opens ones heart to the Holy Spirit when pricked by His word. One physically goes into the grave when they die. Their spirit goes back to God.

It shows.

Faith


Unless you believe. If you believe the proof is everywhere: the world around us, the animals of the earth, birds of the sky, and fish of the sea; and your own face when you look in the mirror.


So do I. However, when God speaks to you, there's nothing "stupid" about it.


Yes, I do know. When God places a truth in your heart that can come from nowhere else, then you "know that you know that you know".

Faith is simple to a believer, complex to someone trying to believe, and "stupid" to the lost.

may God bless you (uh huh, he does even bless those who don't believe)

Peace
Gracey

I definitely think you can have knowledge of God! The NT talks about the knowledge of God through the spirit all the time! Jesus said; eternal life is this; that you KNOW the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." To me it's just like knowing a person. I can safely say that I know my husband exists. I don't just hope that he exists, I KNOW that he exists! Faith that comes from the spirit instead of "mustering it up" is the faith that lasts. That's why Jesus said that no one can snatch his true sheep out of his hand. But faith that is mustered up, will eventually crumble because it had no root. Jesus talks about lasting and unlasting "faith" using the three types of soil; rocky, thorny, and good soil. Only when the word falls on good soil will it last. The good soil lasts because the Holy Spirit because is the root.

The problem with having knowledge of God, though, is this:

God is supernatural (a metaphysical statement), meaning that he exists beyond the framework of natural law and existence. This means that he must also be incomprehensible (an epistemological statement) because supernatural existence and epistemological transcendence are two sides of the same metaphysical coin.

Translation:

If God is supernatural, he is also unknowable. His nature is necessarily something totally alien to us, and we therefore can understand nothing about it through reason.

Thus, the only alternative is faith. :)

J.D.

God gave each one of us a measure of faith. We can use it in any manner we chose. You can believe in fluke evolution, creation, or, a combination of both. You can even chose to believe nothing at all. Faith and free will go hand in hand.

 However, God hasn't left us totally void of any evidence of His existence.
 If a person actually takes the time, he can find loads of evidence which corroborates God's Word, to the point where an intelligent, stable minded person can come to the conclusion that God is real, and His Word is 100% accurate.

 You have the free will to choose not to look for yourself. You can listen to people who tell you "there is no God", but you are potentially putting yourself in the position of choosing Hell over Heaven. God doesn't choose to send you to Hell, we decide that for ourselves when we choose to ignore Him.

There is scientific corroboration, there is historical corroboration and there is archaeological corroboration.

 The challenge is, for anyone to find any evidence which disproves a single Biblical account. Doctrine may be difficult to corroborate, however, as far as historical content, including locations, specific persons, and recorded historical events as recorded in the Bible, I can guarantee you that you can not put even a single recorded account into disrepute.

 Once you discover how reliable and accurate God is, you will be forced to reconsider your artiest "beliefs"

Bronzesnake

Such as...?

(Fair warning: statements such as "just look in the mirror" or "it's all around you if you just look" will be summarily ignored.)


(Emphasis mine.) You may want to rephrase that. It implies that our will supercedes God's will in the matter of one's eternal resting place.


Again - such as...?


The sacking of the city of Tyre. (Even God said he misjudged that one.)


See above.


1.) What's an "artiest"? Do you mean "artist" or "atheist"?
2.) If you mean "artist," I have no idea what it is that artists believe. I think there's kind of a broad range there. ;)
3.) If you mean atheist - well, that's different. Atheism is either "I do not believe in God" or "I believe there is no God." The former is not a belief. The latter is.

There is a world of difference between absence of belief and belief of absence.

To say there is no proof anywhere is not true.
You may choose not to accept the proof, but it does exist.
There has to be something that began this whole physical world. Funny thing about physical matter it can’t come from a void.
On the other hand God is spirit, and not subject to the physical laws. Just because our limited brains can’t comprehend God doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist.
No one can truly know God unless God draws them first.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

My father was an agnostic, my mother did not discuss religion or go to church, yet they were better people than most “Christians” I have known.  :(
I had never met a missionary, unless they had an LDS tag on their chest, and I never saw them for much more than a second. “Not interested, bye.”
I proclaimed myself to be an Atheist, I felt I could prove God did not exist.  :-[
Slowly God lead me to first understand God was possible.
Then God was likely.
Then God was real.
It took about 15 years for God to lead me to truth.
For some people it happens quickly.
Perhaps it took so long because I was always happy and content in my sins.
I am fortunate to have almost always found enjoyment in life. Even the bad times were short.  8)
For me real truth began with a prayer similar to:
God I don’t know what is true. Was Jesus a fake or was He God made into a man, I don’t know anything. Is truth in the bible or is it all lies. If the bible is true please show me the truth.
Then I would just read the bible. I didn’t read the headers at the top, I didn’t listen to commentaries, I didn’t go to church. I trusted that if there was a God -- He would show me.
I bounced around reading various books in no particular order. What I discovered was an amazing cohesiveness to the bible. Penned by several men over many centuries yet totally harmonious, without contradiction --- Amazing.  ;D

Man can not know God in and of himself, but God knows his creation and reveals himself to man through His Spirit in these last days that which is necessary for man to know of Him and His gift of salvation.

 Acts 2:17.  "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19.  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Hi neo, or is that nero? ;)
 
My quote...

 
 
Such as...?
 
(Fair warning: statements such as "just look in the mirror" or "it's all around you if you just look" will be summarily ignored.)
 
Where would you like to begin? Historical accounts, archaeology? Science?
 
My quote...

 
(Emphasis mine.) You may want to rephrase that. It implies that our will supercedes God's will in the matter of one's eternal resting place.
 
No it doesn't. It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...
 
 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 
My quote...

 
Again - such as...?
 
 I could give you many examples, but I've seen your type before, nothing will be good enough.
 
 Here's an example from the Old Testament...
 
God says He created us from the dust of the ground.
 
 Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
 Here's a challenge for you neo. Find a single chemical found in the dirt of the earth that the human body is lacking.
 
 When you find out there isn't one, you'll no doubt claim "coincidence"
 
I'll continue...
 
THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE
The basic stages of the water cycle are described in the following three verses. The third verse, from Ecclesiastes, may also indicate the sphericity of the Earth.
 
Job 36:27-28 "He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." -  
 
Job 26:8 "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." -  
 
 Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. -
 

The Bible describes the recirculation of water.
 
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
 

Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
 

Hydrothermal vents are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
 
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
 
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
 
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
 
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
 
The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.
 
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.
 

Statements Consistent With Anthropology
We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.
 

Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.
 

Statements Consistent With Meteorology
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
 

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
 

The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
 

Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
 
THE EXISTENCE OF SPACE
 
In the Book of Job it is claimed that the Earth is suspended in emptiness, or space, which Job describes as "nothing."
 
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." - Job 26:7 (NIV)
 

PLANTS PRECEDED ANIMALS
 
The Bible places the creation of plants (on the Third Day) before the creation of animals (on the Fifth and Sixth Days). Science is in agreement here. Fossil records demonstrate that plants appeared before animals, both in the sea and on the land.
 
Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. -  
 
Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." -  
 
Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. -  
 

ANIMAL LIFE BEGAN IN THE SEA
 
Most scholars will acknowledge that the Biblical Creation story is certainly incomplete from a scientific perspective. Yet, what the Bible does reveal in no way contradicts the scientific evidence. For example, science has learned that the first animal life appeared in the oceans. This correlates nicely with the Biblical record where the first mention of animals in the Bible places them in the Earth's waters.
 
Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures..."
 

THE OCEAN FLOOR
 
Beneath the ocean's vast surface was a mysterious, unknown world that possessed wonders beyond the scope of ancient man's technology. The sailors of that age were no doubt skilled in the art of sea travel. Yet the murky depths of the seas they sailed were as mysterious to them as the distant galaxies of space are to us. It is little wonder then that the writers and storytellers of old conjured up horrifying tales of sea monsters and terrifying creatures of the deep. Man's imagination is most productive when he possesses the least amount of knowledge.
 
Even today, there is much about the ocean that remains mysterious and undiscovered. But the contour of the ocean floor is no longer a mystery. We now know that the bottom of the ocean is comprised of great mountain ranges, deep trenches, volcanoes, valleys, and plateaus. We take this knowledge for granted today, yet such information has only been verified in the past century, with the advent of sonar and satellites. How is it possible, then, that the Bible speaks of "valleys" existing beneath the sea?
 
2 Samuel 22:16  The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. -
 
 
 
 All of these examples will no doubt be ambiguous or fluke coincidence to an atheist.
 
 Would you like some archaeology now? Perhaps some history?
 
Bronzesnake.

neo...

I said...
 "The challenge is, for anyone to find any evidence which disproves a single Biblical account."  
 
Your response...

 That is not proof of an inaccurate, or incorrect Biblical account neo. You will have to come up with an archaeological find that disputes a biblical claim, or a credible historical account from antiquity. There are none.

Once you discover how reliable and accurate God is, you will be forced to reconsider your artiest "beliefs"
 

 You'd better watch every letter from now on neo. You opened a can of worms here my friend.
Of course I won't be so childish.

Bronzesnake.

How does a newborn infant choose?  ???
A toddler?  ???
A three year old?  ???
How does someone that has never heard of Christ choose?  ??? For instance someone living in Bora Bora in the year 600.
We are in agreement that there is much evidence that God exists,  :) I don’t necessarily agree with your examples.
Not enough time to create fossils, or to show plants came before man. For all intents and purposes man and plants were created at the same time, the same week.
One of my favorite examples relates to continental drift. The bible tells us that the earth was divided.

Genesis 10:25  And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

What scientists have described as a slow drifting apart was actually a ripping apart, now the movement of the continents is slowing down.

L.C.

 

 Children are not required to choose. When a child dies, he/she goes straight to Heaven. People throughout the entire world know about Jesus. If there is a rare instance where some have never heard the Word, they will be saved.

There are Biblical references to those questions, however, I am very tired at the moment. I will dig them up if you can't find them.

Bronzesnake.

Even satan believes in God. It's not that I believe in Him, it's that I want to give my all to Him. He gave everything for me and has shown me a love like no other ever can or ever will.


What would be proof to you?


I think it's pretty stupid when people use silly stereotypes to try and make Christians look like a bunch of zombies just going with the flow.
I grew up with an atheist dad and an agnostic mom.
I was saved at the age of 28 and the first time I met a Christian missionary I was somewhere in my early 30s.


I know the same as I know my husband and children love me and I know I love them.


When I was in high school (my teens are pretty sure that was just under 1000 years ago) I fell in love with reading classic novels. The kind that men like Steinbeck, Williams, Twain, etc. wrote. If the Bible is fiction, then it was poorly done and would not have lasted all these years.


Well, please show me where the Bible has been proven wrong. If you can show that the Bible has ever been proven wrong, then I'll question what it says about the afterlife.


How can you be sure about that?  ;)

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We are estranged from God as soon as we are born:

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

We sin as soon as we come out of the womb.
God also passes judgment on babies.

Deuteronomy 32:25  The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
 
This is Gods judgment on Israel. But it is also speaking of Gods judgment on all mankind. Christ is the Rock of our salvation. God was angry because of the actions of Jeshurun found in verse fifteen:

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

We see the beautiful giggly little baby; God sees the heart. And the heart is corrupt from birth.
The unborn haven’t sinned yet. But as soon as we come out of the womb we start thinking Me, Me, Me.
"Feed me. I'm mad. Change me. I'm selfish. I'm self centered."
The sad thing is so many churches today figure children are too young for the gospel, they shut their babies up in a nursery. Can't have those babies crying and disturbing the congregation.
Jesus said don't keep the children from me. Yet that is what so many do.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Somehow God uses the word to save, it is His work.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God saves even infants, John the Baptist was saved while still in the womb. True joy is salvation.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

And Jeremiah was also saved while still in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The great commission is to go into the world and spread the gospel.
It isn't our job to convince people or save people, God does that.
If you have never heard you can’t believe. That is why we have missionaries, to get the word out.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Today yes many people have heard about Jesus. 1,500 years ago it was a different story.
If you can find scripture that says all children go to heaven, I would like to see it.
I have been asking the question for years, I have heard some creative answers, but nothing substantial.
Please dig I want to know your evidence, I want to know what scripture you are looking at.
John

Hi ebia.

 Please show me how science disagrees with the Genesis account?

 Is it the results from their carbon and radio dating?
If it is, then I know of some "50 year old 1 billion year old" lava rock that you could buy cheap.

 Of course I don't agree with every scientific conclusion...do you? I seriously doubt there's a single credible scientist on earth who has such a dogmatic attitude.

The things I agree with are generally proven, or demonstrated scientific facts. The things I disagree with,  generally come from scientific theory which goes against the evidence.

 For example...Evolutionary science tell us that the universe, and all life is the result of a fluke accident. That life "somehow" began as a simple single celled organism, then gradually, through "beneficial" genetic mutation brought on by environmental change, life "evolved". This is pure wishful thinking! Scientists have been spreading lies for years, about the ability of life to form new DNA. Or the thousands of graduated transitional fossils they have hidden "somewhere safe", but the sad reality is that there isn't even one!

Many evolutionist scientists have admitted that reality in public, and yet the majority of them still cling desperately onto their "faith".

 You can choose to remain fooled by science ebia, or, you can take an honest look at the so called "proof" and the methods used to back it up, and learn the truth.

Tell me ebia...Why would God lie about the timeline in Genesis?
Why would He lie about creating each life after it's own kind, if He actually used an evolutionary process?

What else did He lie about. Or is He simply a literary incompetent?

 It's funny how you don't seem interested in the archaeology or historical corroboration ebia...afraid of what you might have to fluff of or deny?

 It seems to me that you have more faith in men of science than you do in God.

Bronzesnake.  

L.C.

Do you really think that when babies die they go to hell?  ???

I'm digging...it's there I tells ya!

L.C.

 I stand corrected on the "heathen" issue...

 
Who Will be Saved, According to the Word of God?
By Dr. Norman Geisler


ROMANS 1:19-20—Are those who have never heard the gospel lost?
MISINTERPRETATION: Jesus said, “I am the way the truth life, No one comes to the
Father, except through Me” (John 14:6 NIV). Also, Acts 4:12 says of Christ, “And there is
salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given
among men, by which we must be saved” (NASB). Will someone who has never heard the
gospel of Christ be eternally lost? Paul seems to answer this in the affirmative. But is it fair
to condemn people who have never heard about Christ? Some New Agers point to this
problem in support of the idea that all the world religions are paths to God.
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: Paul’s answer is clear. He said the
heathen are “without excuse” (Rom. 1:20) because “what may be known of God is manifest
in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible
attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made” (1:19-20 NIV) .
So, the heathen are justly condemned.
Romans 2:12 states, “For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without
law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law” (NKJV). This pas-sage
teaches that the Jew is judged by the law (the Hebrew Scriptures), but the Gentile is
condemned by “the law written in their hearts” (v.15). “For when Gentiles who do not have
the law by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science
also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else
excusing them” (Rom. 2:14, 15 NKJV, emphasis added).
The question of God’s fairness in judging the heathen assumes innocence on the part
of the unsaved who haven’t heard the gospel. But the Bible tells us that “all have sinned
and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). In addition, Romans 1:18-20 says that God
clearly reveals himself through natural revelation “so that they are without excuse.” Human
beings are not innocent regarding God’s natural revelation.
If a person who has not heard the gospel and lives to the best of his or her ability, that
person is simply doing works in an attempt to achieve salvation. But salvation is by grace,
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of
God” (Eph. 2:8 NKJV). No one can do anything to gain access into heaven. If there was
such a way, then the work of Christ on the Cross was a futile act.
The Bible says in essence, “seek and you will find.” That is, those who seek the light
they have through nature, which is not sufficient for salvation, will get the light they need for
salvation. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who
comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently
seek Him.” Acts 10:35 adds, “But in every nation whoever fears God and works righteous-ness
is accepted by Him” (NKJV). God has many ways to get the truth about salvation
through Christ to those who seek him. He can send a missionary (Acts 10), a radio broad-cast,
or a Bible (Ps. 119:130). Theoretically God could send a vision (Dan. 2, 7) or an angel
(Rev. 14) though he no longer gives new revelation. But those who turn their back on the
light they have (through nature) and find themselves lost in darkness have no one to blame.

Bronzesnake.

 Why  do  I  believe  in  God  ?  

 Hmm.  Hard to say.  I  look  at  the  men,  women and children around me. I  look at the madness  around  me.  I see  people that are capable of  greatness giving  into  pettiness. I see apathy,  corruption,  greed,  perversion,  hatred,  indifference,  
rage  and  violence.   On  occasion,  I see  love,  harmony,  acceptance,  tolerance,  friendship  and  good  will  toward  men and women.    The  world  is  always on  the  brink  of destruction.


These days,  men and women are   fighting each other  in the home,  in the streets,  at  the office  and  in the bedroom as  opposed  to cooperating  with  each  other  like  it was  meant to be.  Something  has  gone  horribly wrong.  Yet  I see  some  men  and  women try  to  make a  difference and sometimes they  succeed.  

I  sense a  greater  power  out  there.  I dont know exactly what  it  is  or  what  to call  it.   I  know  that  it  is  sentient.  
I  also  know that  often,  it  is  on  the outside  looking  in.

I  choose  to call  it   God.

It’s a simple fact.
Things with physical substance require building blocks.
Life itself, in the very simplest form, requires the division of a cell.
It is not possible for even an atom to come from absolute nothingness.

That’s what the bible says.
If they are not saved they will go to hell.
That is why it is so important to include even the tiniest babies in the hearing of the word.
I believe that God will save enormous numbers of babies in various ways.
Perhaps the crack addict mother will walk by a street corner evangelist, the baby will briefly hear the gospel and God will use that to save a baby that is to die soon.
These are words we don’t like to hear, or consider.
God is above man and we have to be careful not to make him in our image.
We see that sweet huggable baby, God sees the heart. The heart is corrupt from the very beginning.
Of my 4 children I had one really strong-willed baby. She was always trying to see what she could get away with.
I would look out the corner of my eye, she would slowly try to sneak up on something she wasn’t supposed to touch. She would look at me to see if I was watching, getting closer and closer. When she got too close all I had to do is standup, and she would run away. She knew right from wrong.  

Bronzesnake,

From your article:
Who Will be Saved, According to the Word of God?
By Dr. Norman Geisler


The bible says seek and you will find --- IF you seek him with ALL your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13  And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The problem is the heart is totally corrupt, to the point that it will deceive us.

Genesis 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But more clearly the bible says that NONE WILL SEEK HIM.
 
Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

We can get on our knees and plead to God for understanding and mercy, but God is the one who gives understanding.

James 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Or Not:

Matthew 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Romans 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Romans 11:9  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

The bible says clearly no one can come to God unless God draws them, it is His work.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
I am afraid I would have to disagree with Mr. Geisler. He hasn’t read his bible very carefully.  ::)

Unfortunately your knowledge of physics is not up tot he task in this analysis.

At the quantum level there are virtual pair production and anihilation processes going on all the time, where electron and positron pairs are formed and mutually destroy one another readily and repeatably and measurably from the void.

On a large scale there is postulated the existance of something labeled deSitter space which is the void from which the universe that formed from the big bang got its start.

So science does have a method of forming something out of nothing.

Please don't take this clarification as a support of the "truth" of the theory of evolution because I have explained before on this forum that science is not in the "truth" business.  Science is in the prediction business and the theory of evolution provides more predictive power than the creationist account - therefore it is more useable in controlling our environment than the creationist account even if it is not true and the creation account is.  Sceince doesn't care about true, it cares about creating theories that give us predicitive power to control our environment.

It still cannot come from ABSOLUTE nothingness.
Energy is substantial. It comes from something, the idea energy fluctuations can create matter establishes an energy source -- God.

Sorry but it indeed is from nothing - the energy fluctuations come from nowhere.  The void suddenly is just less stable in the form of nothingness than it is in the form of two chunks of energy or matter.

 I disagree with you on this one L.C.

Deuteronomy 1: 39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it and they shall possess it"

 Another Scripture which we might consider is in 2 Samuel 12:22-23. David appeared to have little doubt that when his new little baby died, that child was safe...

 2 Samuel 12: 22-23 "So he said, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

 David had little doubt that - in some future state - he would meet up with his baby again.

 Now compare that to David's reaction to the death of Absalom in 2 Samuel 18: 32-33. Now we see David deeply grieving at the death of this rebellious son. Was this simply because Absalom had been part of his family for so much longer than the little baby? I suspect that David believed that eternal hope for his son was now lost?

 Then there is the fate of those little children who were so cruelly sacrificed to Moloch. These poor little tots were literally burned alive!
God's anger at the practice is made very clear in several Scriptures; See Ezekiel 16: 20-21 for instance. But the interesting thing in verse 21 is how, after these poor tragic little ones had already died, God called them, 'My Children' Is that significant? Did God know that those children were safe with Him?

 Look at God's compassion towards the children of Nineveh in Jonah 4: 11. Those who 'Cannot discern between their right hand and their left' are the children!

 But one of the strongest Scriptures for assuring us that those countless thousands of children who have died before the age of accountability, are safe in God's hands is in Jeremiah 31  


Jeremiah 31: 15-17 "Thus says the Lord:
A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted for her children, because they are no more.
Thus says the Lord:
Refrain your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope in your future, says the Lord, that your children shall come back to their own border"

This prophecy was fulfilled by Herod's cruel slaughter of the innocents, as Matthew 2:16-18 points out. But the prophecy includes a promise that those little children are presently safe! They are not lost! I also maintain, with very little doubt, that this also applies to those tiny babies who are aborted in the womb!

Look at Jesus' attitude towards small children.  Matthew 18: 1-6 ,  Matthew 21: 15-16 and Mark 10: 13-16. These verses speak of young children.

 Matthew 18: 3 unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven"


 The final question then is, At what age has a child reached an age of accountability?
 Certainly Jewish children were not usually considered to come under the law until age 12, but it would probably be wrong to infer too much from that.
 I believe God, in His perfect wisdom, knows when each of us are able to make the choice. Before that time, we are baby birds under His wing.

Bronzesnake.

 ;D

I firmly believe that since Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light and that NO ONE comes to the Father Except through HIM then it will be Jesus who decides who comes to the Father.

Knowing Jesus I'm sure there will be lots of babies sitting around in heaven.  Lots.

Can you imagine Jesus checking his "legalism" list to determine what age and child needed to be before his accountability kicked in?

Can you imagine Jesus kicking sinners out of heaven?

Can you imagine Jesus making up stupid rules to keep good people out of heaven?

He died for our sins so that no one can parish but everyone can have everlasting life.  Sadly, or happily, everlasting is forever and there's just people that are evil that will make heaven miserable the same way they make earth miserable.  I'm afraid Christ will make them stay out but I know for sure he wont be happy about it.

The Truth is that Jesus is the Gate Keeper.  None of us gets to make judgements about who Jesus will let in and who Jesus will keep out.  We already know that Jesus will keep out some people who do stuff in His name--He will say "depart from me, I never knew you."  I have a feeling those are the folks that are like the teachers of the law and the pharisees that didn't practice mercy or make sacrifices so that others could live.  We have to make sacrifices of our time and energy and resources in hopes that other can live.  We can't just go around condemning sinners and teaching laws, because that's what behavior got the pharasees and the teachers of the law in so much trouble by Christ.

Peace

 Those who reject Jesus will not enter Heaven.
It doesn't matter how "good" a person may be, without Jesus even a "good person" will spend eternity in hell.

 The Bible says even our best works are as filthy rags in His eyes.

 Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 It is not God's will that even one person shall perish. That's true - it's our will, our own free will which ends up being the cause of our eternal destination. God wants all to be saved through jesus, however, He gave us free will to decide for ourselves. Some will be saved, others will not.

 neo my friend. If only you would put aside your cynicism and approach God with humility and honesty. You would then begin to understand the real meaning of His words, instead of using them out of context, as a platform for sarcasm.

Bronzesnake.

Then quit posting scripture without knowing what you are posting (reading), and why it is scripture, and the context in which it was written as it pertains to our daily lives.  Sometimes, Neo, you really make a fool of yourself. The post referenced above is one of those times, and quite honestly, the last I can take from you.  I don’t have to attend “Duke University” (from a post you made because you somehow believed you could impress someone) to call a fool a fool.  
Of course, I mean that in a loving way.  ;D

Think about it.  Remember; this is a Christian forum.  I've tried to get along with you, but calling Biblical Scripture "morally bankrupt" is childish, moronic, and against everything this forum is here for.

Maybe it's time for your to leave.  Take a hike.  Go insult someone else.  Your insults, here, are recognized as what they are.

Find another place to play you satanic games.

neo...

 
And that's exactly how he wants you neo...Ignorant - so he can continue to infest your soul and keep you a bitter angry man, right up to the point where you find yourself swimming beside him in a huge flaming lake.

  In the end neo, you will have no one to blame but yourself for where you will eventually end up. Christ is knocking, and you refuse to let Him in.

Bronzesnake.

 

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This is true with children as well as adults. if a person is not being drawn by God then wild horses cannot make him believe. The ones whom God is drawing WILL DEFINIETLY come to God or god would have been wrong about his heart in the first place.

 The point of my last post has been lost on you neo. satan does exist-you scoff at that idea, and that's exactly how he wants it neo. You are as a fish in a barrel to satan, as long as you keep him in the realm of fantasy. satan loves it! You're in eminant danger of companying him to eternal flame, and the really sad part about it is that, by choosing to mock Christianity, you are in effect, choosing to spend eternity in hell. Can't you hear the devil laughing at you neo? satan wants you to remain stupid.

2.) Since when am I bitter and/or angry? Do you purport to know me, Bronzesnake? :)

 It's not hard to figure out neo. What kind of mindset are you in? You spend a lot of time here, and, yes, it is your right to do so. However, one has to seriously wonder about such a person. Someone who does not believe, that spends so much time and effort mocking Christian debates and doctrines on a Christian web site. To what end neo? Surely you don't expect to gain any support here - we're Christians!

Only a person with a bitter mindset, or some kind of mentally unhealthy predisposition would waste his/her time like this neo.

 The only other possibility is that you are actually looking for the truth, and are too embarrassed at the moment to admit it, therefor, you're putting on the mask of an atheist in order to cover your true expression.


 That would be a good argument except it implies there isn't a loving God who offers eternal joy and bliss in a world of unimaginable beauty. Where's the force? where's the fear?
You aren't being forced to accept Jesus are you neo? You do have free will do you not neo?

There are consequences for any worthwhile venture we undertake in life neo-should we abandon our quest for everything which may have a negative consequence?

 The appeal to force or fear actually applies best to atheist neo. You live, you die, you're dead. The fear of not existing is the millstone around your neck neo. Christians aren't feverishly trying to find scientific magic pills to prolong life, that's you guys. You do it because you fear not being alive.
It's the scientific mindset which has the entire world in the grip of atomic annihilation neo, not Jesus.

Bronzesnake.

 

nimble- just curious- how old are you?

25. Not that it matters. I would ask you why you asked that, but I dont want to get off topic. I have a major in economics. And in philosophy. That might be why I renounced my formerly methodist beliefs.

The problem with your "God can't lift rock" analogy, is that you're judging God based on human reasoning.

 Also, you think you are in a unique position because you "have seen both sides" Do you honestly believe all Christians were born Christians? I was a drinking, drug infested, biker lifestyle, low life, down and out of luck, non believer for twenty six years of my life. I have also seen both sides. You obviously know one side pretty good, however, you don't know God, that's for certain. God is the antithisis of non-reality my friend.

 Anyone who thinks they can figure out or psychoanalyze God is either seriously deluded, or fooling himself.

 Bronzesnake.

When did you become a Christian?

Romans, 7:7, "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." Atheists prove this to be true. 1 Co. 3:19, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." People can only understand what they understand, and nothing more. As Paul said, it's impossible for atheists to understand God. Arguing with them is like speaking Russian to people who cannot understand Russian.

It matters because I'm curious to know when you made a decision to follow Christ and when you renounced Him. I'm also curious to know why you first made a decision and then later changed your mind.
You've given some details as to why you changed your mind, but I missed the details about the day you gave your heart to Him.
What happened on the day you gave your heart to Him?

I became christian basically from birth. However, I didnt accept god until I was 5. I renounced god after a few books, and 9 philosophy classes.

I can define myself, every single cell in me has an identity, which can be analyzed and described.

I would like to ask a few questions which will lead into an argument later. How do you think that men acquire knowledge? (this is epistomology) And if god is incomprehensible, and cannot be judged by human reasoning, then what makes you think that he isnt supernatural? That sounds very similar to the definition of supernatural: not subject to natural laws and incomprehensible.

Natural laws? Since God created the heavens & the earth, and everything in it, then I suppose you would have to ask Him to define what "natural laws" are. His definition is likely to be somewhat different than ours.

Uh, now I'll butt out.

Cheers
Gracey

I doubt that you can define yourself as Plato showed in the Thaeatetus that we cannot even successfully define simple objects such as a chair without resorting to something we call "chairness".  If you can define yourself do so in front of all of us.


If you want to get into epistomology then you will need to define knowledge.  By knowledge do you mean true belief, or justified true belief or just what?  That alone is a semester long debate.


Who said God wasn't supernatural?


Whose definition of supernatural are you using?  Until you establish some credibility here you will need to provide sources for all your claims and even definitions, even if they appear to be something that can be agreed upon up front.  

Philosophy is all about the definitions is it not?   ;D

neo and nimble-
There will always be things beyond your comprehension.
Something does not cease to exist just because it goes against human reasoning.

Just because He's beyond your comprehension does not mean He is beyond everyone's comprehension.  

You best be careful how you word your posts. Some of us on this board found out there is a God because we didn't have a college professor spoon feeding us the ideas of man. Others on this board found out there is a God in spite of what their college professors taught them.

Since you confessed in the other thread that you have not read the Bible, I would suggest you refrain from critiquing it.
That would be kind of like me telling you how stupid a movie is when I've seen nothing more than the trailer for the movie. It would not be accurate at all.

i have yet to mention the bible. Can you quote me? I only argue that "God exists" is a contradiction in terms. I have yet to plunge into bible.

There are two realms, the natural, and the spiritual.
The natural exists and is the created. God does not exist in the natural as he is spirit and is the creator. The natural exists in a created time frame surrounded by the eternity of the spiritual. This created time frame has set limits and will one day end and all will be eternal. How one approaches and listens to the creator, believing Him or not believing Him, will determine their judgement and habitat for the eternal.

Ollie

Then what book are you referring to here?

That is only if you restrict yourself to one paradigm - that of science.  But that is only one way of knowing and it has its limits.  So there are somethings that fly in the face of reason and are not discredited when understood within the paradigm of religious faith.


We go beyond human reason and respond to the light God grants us to have faith.

Philosophy is not about semantics but philosophical arguments never get anywhere until the definitions used are agreed to.

Thanks for providing the source of your definition.  It helps me know where you are coming from (since there is inherent bias - in even dictionaries (as I am sure you would be quick to point out if I were to reference a theological dictionary to offer competing definitions)


I can agree with the definition of existance and the axiom but I do not expect to make much progress from them as they are too basic.


Have you read the Thaeatetus?  Do you really thing that vague a definition (with the unproven claim that you could provide the details if pushed) would satisfy Plato?  No way.

One specific error in your definition is that your cells and organs make up your mind.  That has never been proven within any of the sciences.


There are many.  I accept Thomas Aquinas' definition from the Summa Theologica but it covers many chapters and cannot be properly summarized here as would only make sense for the attributes of the supreme being.


There is plenty of sensory evidence, documented miracles galore, completely unexpalinable by science.  But none qualify as conclusive.  If you had conclusive sensory evidence of the existence of God it would do you no good - you could not become a Christian (as you promise), because you would KNOW God existed - you would not have FAITH.  The two are mutually exclsuive.

You make statements, claims, and "proofs", and refuse to address the points raised about them.  You apparently have less than a seven minute memory of what you said yourself, but refuse to address it when caught on the point by two posters.  You attempt to dictate how others respond to your post.   Spot the Troll.

A definition was not asked. Go back and read the original starting post. However here are some definitions of God.

God is spirit.

God is creator.

God is love.

God is not a man.

God is a consuming fire.

God is a jealous God.

God is a merciful God.

God is one.

God is God of gods and Lord of lords.

God is refuge.

God is strength and power.

God is gracious.

God is greater than man.

God is mighty in strength and wisdom.

God is great.

God is angry with the wicked.

God is a very present help in trouble.

God is King of all the earth.

God is judge.

God is salvation.

God is the rock of refuge.

God is holy.

God is pure.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

God is true.

God is no respecter of persons:

God is hope.

God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is much more to God but perhaps that will give you a start into defining God.

Ollie

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

Brother, I don't think it is sarcasm on Neo's part. It's trolling and Christian hunting. We are the prey, and he is the superior intellect hunting us, or so he thinks. He's really pretty sad.

I've been down without a computer for over a week, and this is my first day back with a working computer. We both know there is nothing morally bankrupt about the Holy Bible. In fact, we both know that the Holy Bible is the cure for Neo, but it is currently an object of scorn and mockery for Neo.

I think that we all need to pray for Neo, but he will consider that another joke about intellectually inferior Christians. He's pretty sad.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ollie;
As you posted so completely:
God IS

Amen brother!

Ebia,

I must agree with you for once. Neo and Nimble are both trolls hunting Christians. You have a target on your back also.

Tom

 Hello my brother. Glad to have you back on the job!

 I agree, we're being hunted, but I have bullet proof body armour, bought and paid for by Jesus!

Bronzesnake.

Nimble-
It's too bad you really didn't want answers.
If you did you would have started a thread yourself and asked direct questions in that thread.
Also, you would have attempted to listen instead of attempting to discredit others.
When you ask questions about other areas of life, do you ask them with the intention of learning from the person or the intention of discrediting the person?
It makes a big difference in the answers you receive.

neo...



 Add up the death toll statistics from all religious sources, then add up the death toll statistics from all others neo.

Start out with deaths caused by Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot and work your way back from there.

 By the way, how is religion responsible for the Middle east conflict, in your opinion?

 Also, You don't seem to interested in any arguments based on evolution as opposed to creation. It would appear that you base your atheism on the fact that you don't approve of God's rules and regulations. Most of your anger based sarcasm is aimed at scriptures which show God in a bad light as far as His attitude toward unbelievers. You have a hard time accepting the reality of hell for the unbeliever in relation to a "loving God"

Your reasons to be here...

  Mission accomplished!  ;)

Very revealing my friend, very revealing indeed!


Bwahahahaaa! ;D
 Ya, right. Hey, no, really, I believe you!  :P

Your time would be better spent in some of the more liberal, "anything goes" churches, where the congregation have sore bums from sitting on the fence. This web site is composed mostly of bible believing Christians, you won't convert anyone here, and you know it.

 Not only are you an angry man/woman, you also appear to have issues with honesty.

 Hey, I wish I could say it's been fun...bye neo.

Bronzesnake

 

Oh, I am sorry I forgot one or two other defintions of God.

God is the giver of human reasoning.

God is I am, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.

Let your physical life be filled with knowledge and goodness of the Lord so that the physical death will find you free at last, free at last.

Ollie

Neo-
What are your thoughts on Jesus Christ?
Do you believe He ever lived?
Do you think He was who He said He was?

1.) Did Jesus ever live? It's a distinct possibility.

2.) Do I believe Jesus was God? (Do I believe in God at all?) No.

History tells us that He lived.
There were eye-witness accounts of a man named Jesus who died on the cross and rose again.
There were witnesses who heard Him claim to be God.

As extraordinary as natural life itself for which there is no evidence of its beginning, but yet it is.

Bronzesnake,
I wish I had more time to contribute, this topic is moving faster than I can keep up. We seem to be a little off topic, but I would like to reply.
Remember Deut. 32 -- the suckling also.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

The scripture must be in harmony, as I understand your interpretation of Deuteronomy 1:39 it contradicts Psalms 58 and Isaiah 48.

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Deuteronomy 1:39 is referring the sin committed by the Jews concerning the promised land. If you are looking for an age of accountability out of this that would be age 20. The little ones and children this is talking about are those under age 20.

Numbers 14:29  Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 32:11  Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12  Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Numbers 32:13  And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
 
 David’s child was taken because of David’s sin.
David knew his son was saved. God gave him that comfort. The child did not make a freewill decision, God rescued him. Saved him.
God does save babies in exactly the same way every person is saved, it is entirely His action.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

These verses and so many more teach that God must choose us and draw us. He looses none that He has chosen.
I have not questioned the ability of God to save children. The problem arises when you try to establish an age of accountability.
There is much evidence that 20 cannot be the age, yet it is the only possibility available with scripture.
The age of accountability was invented by man to make the idea of freewill salvation work.
It is adding to the prophesy of the book.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

When we understand that salvation is 100% Gods work, and man can do nothing to guarantee his salvation we find that God not only saves the old and the young but He even saves the unborn, by changing their hearts, (born again B4 birth  ;)).

John the Baptist and Jeremiah were saved while still in the womb. True joy is salvation.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

L.C.

 We are not arguing the fact that we all sin, even children are born into sin. We are debating whether children go to Hell.

 I'm saying, there is an age of accountability when we become responsible to choose or deny Jesus. Children are not able to comprehend this.

 God doesn't send children to Hell. There isn't any scriptures which tell us this.

 I believe I have provided more than ample scriptural evidence to show I am correct on this topic.

 You may choose to disagree, that's your prerogative.

What is the purpose of your argument? To show God destroys children?

Bronzesnake.

You havn't shown any scripture to support an age of accountability.
Sin demands a payment.
I'm in a hurry but I think you know the verse --- "the wages of sin is death". I am not sure I quoted it exactly.
Jesus paid for our sins.  
People don’t seem to really understand what Jesus did. He literally paid the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for every sin I ever have or ever will commit. This began at the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Let’s count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thurs. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night?
In the garden of Gethsemane.
That is when He began suffering. He began to pay for the sins of those He came to save. He literally suffered the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for each sin. We see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Our sins are washed clean by the blood of Christ. He was also in agony.

Every sin that has ever been commited demands payment, even the sins of children.
You are right children cannot comprehend Jesus that is why the idea of salvation being based on our freewill decision is impossible.
There is scripture that says God judges children, I gave it to you.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

There are some children that do go to hell, that is if you believe the bible, and I do.
The purpose of the arguement is to show that salvation is not by our work of believing. That is a work.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are control freeks, we want to be in control of everything; we cannot control our salvation.
The bible says babies are estranged from God.
If you are estranged from God YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The bible clearly makes it known children need Jesus also.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

The freewill gospel cannot be supported by the bible, and so they have to add such things as an age of accountability to make it work.
I am sorry but there is no such thing.

I had to whip this out quickly as I am headed out for a few days. If you have any questions, when I return I will answer the best I can.

John

L.C.

  What does God do with the mentally retarded? I guess God tosses them in the pit also.

 Our God is a loving, merciful God L.C. He is the righteous judge, do you understand what that means?
 Bronzesnake.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

Ya! What he said!  ;D

Thanks Tommy!

Amen.

Ollie

Tom if you don‘t feel you are able to answer so be it.  ::)

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

This isn’t talking about physically dying.
We are estranged from God as soon as we are born. It is very clear language -- from the womb. How much younger can your fictitious age of accountability be.
Then it is better not to evangelize because when someone knows the law they fall under Gods judgment.
It would have been better to have left the cannibals alone.
The fact is all, including babies, have sinned.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2 Samuel 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

This is speaking specifically about David’s child -- No mention of it referring to all babies. That is taking it completely out of context. As stated earlier David knew God had saved his child.

Matthew 18:1 ¶  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Matthew 18:2  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:5  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Matthew 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jesus explains that we must come to Jesus as a humble child. Somehow the children believe in Him -- verse 6. That cannot be done by freewill. So how does a baby believe?
The freewill gospel is not a humble gospel.
The freewill teaching is -- God I accept Jesus as my savior, now you have to save me.
The true gospel is reflected in the publican.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
 
There is no pride in the quest, no “Lord I accept Jesus so now you are obligated to save me.”
The only cry can be, “Lord have mercy.”

Matthew 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

This verse like 19:13-14 addresses those that ignore the children, shutting them up in nurseries away from the saving word of God.
There is an idea that because of the age of accountability we don’t need to bring those noisy children into the sanctuary. After all they interfere with the adults trying to listen to the pastor. That is how you despise children.  

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

God does choose to save some children, but the requirement is to hear the gospel. If a child has never heard the word then I am sorry to say there is no scripture that says they will be with the Lord.
That is why in Deuteronomy 32:25 the children are destroyed by God. The key is found in verse 15. Jeshurun lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation, (Christ). The word was not heard, the people went astray.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

The result:

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

If you believe salvation is based on mans freewill decision then the answer would have to be yes, they would go to the pit too.
In fact don’t stop there.
How about someone that has suffered severe brain damage? Maybe they have Alzheimer’s, or some other illness.
Maybe their brain was injured. What are you going to say?
“Well Mrs. Smith, your son Bobby wrecked his car because he was drunk. He had drugs in his system, and he was running from the police because he had robbed a store.
Now he is a complete vegetable, and incapable of ever making a decision again.
He is going to go to hell because it is now impossible for him to make a freewill decision for Christ.”
That is the hope of the freewill Gospel, it puts salvation into the ability of the individual.
As individuals our abilities vary, our ability to make decisions vary. The freewill gospel is not loving, not merciful, not righteous and not fair.
It is also not the gospel.
None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God draws those he intends to save. He will lose none of them.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you ever pray for someone to become saved? If you do, and I hope you do, then you are asking God to treat them better than he treats someone else. Now if salvation is dependent on our decision that would be asking God to be unfair and treat some better than others. If it's all dependent on your choice, is it right if God assists someone to make sure they make the right choice? The unsaved could rightfully claim, “I would have chosen you if you had given me the same help you gave Mr. Bronzesnake.”
If salvation is because God chooses to be merciful to some then you are only asking God if he might possibly rescue someone. God chooses who he is going to be merciful to.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not by our will, it is by Gods mercy.
God does save children, he does save the mentally deficient, he does save those in foreign lands, but he does not do it through freewill decisions. That was the statement you made at the very beginning that I had to expose as false.


No we don’t.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Please think carefully about this,
John

Quote from: Bronzesnake on June 16, 2004, 08:56:42 PM

 It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...

God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 
leftcoast...

 So, we're all robots are we?

 Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with our ability to choose. They speak of the fact that God gives us enough wisdom in order for us to make the correct choice. If we don't have free will to choose, or reject Him - then why does anyone end up in Hell?
...

 Please think carefully about this  ;)

Bronzesnake.

I understand your confusion. I used to believe salvation was dependent on our work of choosing, also.
When you are convinced salvation is based on the work that you do, you feel that what I am saying is that God forces us to do the work, making us robots or slaves.
No work is required of man --- NONE. It is a rescue.
In the book of Mark there is an interesting story about a paralytic man. His friends carried him to Jesus so he could be healed of his paralysis.
In his eyes Jesus was a healer, not a savior, not a sacrificial lamb, he had no idea Jesus could forgive him for his sins.
His friends lowered him down through the roof so that Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him of his sins. No freewill choice, no personal decision, was he a robot?

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

He received salvation but he didn’t ask for it or seek it.
A dead person has no freewill. A dead person can’t believe. A dead person can’t actively receive.
We have the story of Lazarus.
4 days in the grave ---- he was rotting.
Jesus commanded him to come forth, he did.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Was Lazarus a robot?
Man is spiritually dead.
Jesus calling Lazarus forth is a picture of salvation. I believe Lazarus was saved before he died, but God puts the story in the bible to paint the picture of salvation.
Do the dead have freewill? Do the dead choose?

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Our salvation is dependent COMPLETELY on Gods grace. His Mercy. He chooses who he is going to be merciful to.
So what can we do? Is there no hope? Should we just sit around and wait for God to hit us in the back of the head with salvation? NO!!!
Get on your knees. Plead with God for mercy. Seek him out in the word. Read and study and pray. Do everything you can to keep yourself from sin. Show God you are SERIOUS about wanting to spend your life with Him.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

God is merciful. He is not obligated to save a person, but who knows perhaps He will. One thing is very likely if we do not seek him it is very unlikely we will find him.
Sadly on judgment day there are going to be a lot of people who thought they did what was necessary to get themselves saved. They did the work required. Everyone told them, “You’ve done it, you have come forward and confessed and asked Jesus into your heart. Now you are saved.”
They go to work to convince others to join up. They teach Sunday school. They become pastors. Missionaries. Etc. Working to cast the devil out of others. Unfortunately they trusted in their work, not Gods work in them.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So many people put their faith in their work.

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I did that is why I no longer believe in the freewill gospel.  :D
John

I agree with you, left Coast!! Human beings know what's in their minds so they think that THEY are making their own decisions. But if God has hardened someone's heart, his decisions CANNOT come from the holy Spirit but from satan because God has not given them His power. This is why Jesus says; "I can do nothing without my father" and to Pilate; "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." At Bible study we were asked the question; "Do the people who will eventually follow the anti-christ think they are acting freely or do they know that they have been hardened by God? The answer is that of course they will think they are acting freely, just as all of us do, but "God hardens whom he wants to harden and as mercy on whom he wants to have mercy." Paul is the first one to admit that he was TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit, NOT of his own free will.

Hi Heidi
Yes, we have many similar beliefs.
In line with what you are saying, we can know that if we are one of those that God has chosen we will not be deceived.

Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

"If it were possible", fortunatly God does protect us, so it is not.  :)
John

L.C.



 Now you're being ridiculous! When did I ever say salvation depends on our works? We must either choose Jesus or reject Him L.C. that has nothing to do with works.

 If what you say is true, then we can do anything we want to regardless of how vile or self serving it is, and everyone gets saved because Jesus will "rescue us" If that's true then all the Hell scriptures as well as all the consequences of sin scriptures are all wrong. What a load! :D

 The act of choosing doesn't save us L.C., Jesus does. Once we choose Him, He forgives us of our sins, having died on the cross to pay for our transgressions, and we become saved by Jesus. Not from the act of free will itself.

Jesus says we must choose. Those who choose Jesus will be saved. Those who do not, will not be saved. You are the confused one my friend.
 
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 I can see where this is going L.C. I don't want anything to do with you or you're convoluted reasoning. That is one of the most far fetched, goofy pieces of biblical misinterpretation I've heard in a long time!

I'm not sure whether you're a pretend Christian antagonists, or if you are simple warping scripture, although I'm beginning to suspect the former.

 Have a nice life...

Bronzesnake.

Bronze
Are you interested in searching for truth?

Don’t be so judgmental. The Gospel does offend, please consider that.
You don’t understand and so you say:
You Judge Me, I am neither.  ::)
How have I warped scripture? Because I have given you verses you can’t answer?  :-X
The Paralytic man did not choose.  :o
I gave you verses that show that God chooses. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”
Nowhere does the bible mention we must make a FREEWILL choice.
Choosing is a work.
It requires our effort. If not, then even babies could choose. Some people have a great deal of difficulty making choices. Some people don’t make good choices.
Choosing IS a work.
I never said everyone gets saved --- Not sure why you came up with that. ???
I said:

Have you read my posts??? Or do you just skim.
He will rescue -- save -- those that he has chosen from before the foundation of the earth.

IT IS THE FREEWILL GOSPEL THAT HAS JESUS PAYING FOR THE SINS OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON --- therefore none would have to go to hell to pay for their sins. You got it backwards.

You misunderstand the verses you quoted. The bible says it is Gods work that we believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


May I suggest you read the works of these goofy guys:  ;D


*John Bunyan  (best known for The Pilgrim's Progress) http://www.johnbunyan.org/

From -- SAVED BY GRACE http://www.johnbunyan.org/text/bun-saved.txt

“"BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED."—EPHESIANS 2:5.
In the first chapter, from the fourth to the twelfth verse, the apostle is treating of the doctrine of election, both with respect to the act itself, the end, and means conducing thereto. The act, he tells us, was God's free choice of some (verse 4,5,11).”
 
*Charles Spurgeon  http://www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.htm

From -- Elijah's Appeal to the Undecided:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0134.htm

“I may preach to you, my hearers; and all the ministers in the world may preach to you that are wavering, but you will never decide for God through the force of your own will. None of you, if left to your natural judgment, to the use of your own reason, will ever decide for God. You may decide for him merely as an outward form, but not as an inward spiritual thing, which should possess your heart as a Christian, as a believer in the doctrine of effectual grace. I know that none of you will ever decide for God's gospel, unless God decide you; and I tell you that you must either be decided by the descent of the fire of his Spirit into your hearts now, or else in the day of judgment.”

*The founders of the SOUTHERN BAPTIST faith, http://www.founders.org/
When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858 every professor had to agree with the abstract of principles, this was the first recognized confession of faith of the Southern Baptists.
http://www.founders.org/abstract.html
V. Election.
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
X. Faith.
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

The former President of the Southern Baptist Seminary and namesake of their college:
* James P. Boyce
I recommend reading his Abstract of Systematic Theology. http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html

From the chapter on Election, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch29.html
“The texts thus exhibited under these three classes prove conclusively that not on account of their own merits, but because of the good pleasure of God, does he choose men.”
 
From the chapter on Outward And Effectual Calling, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch31.html
“The atoning work of Christ was not sufficient for the salvation of man.
That work was only Godward, and removed only all the obstacles in the way of God's pardon of the sinner.
But the sinner is also at enmity with God, and must be brought to accept salvation, and must learn to love and serve God.
The first step here is to make known to man the gospel, which contains the glad tidings of this salvation, under such influences as ought to lead to its acceptance.
The Gospel is, therefore, commanded to be proclaimed to every creature, inasmuch as there is in the work of Christ a means of redemption for every one.
This is the external call of the Gospel.
This proclamation, however, meets with no success because of the willful sinfulness of man, although, in itself, it has all the elements which should secure its acceptance.
God knowing that this is true, not only of all mankind in general, but even of the elect whom he purposes to save in Christ, gives to these such influences of the Spirit as will lead to their acceptance of the call. This is called Effectual Calling.”

There are many more Goofy Guys out there, none are perfect. This should keep you busy for a while. I also am not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but you have not addressed the verses I have given. Instead you seek to criticize.

I’ll add one more goofy guy incase you prefer to listen instead of read.
*Dr. Donald Barnhouse  http://www.accradio.com/Barnhouse/Programs.htm

I am not antagonistic toward you, I pray God will give you wisdom. You need it, your path is wrong.

Proverbs 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John

Are you saying Satan is hardening the heart when one chooses to hearken unto Jesus Christ and follow HIm and His word?

 How about a detailed explanation of those verses taken in context of the whole.
 Do you honestly believe that anyone that accepts Jesus Christ freely and is obedient to His word will be what the Bible refers to as "anti-Christ?


 Do you honestly think that anyone that freely comes to Jesus Christ upon hearing the good news of Jesus Christ will have their heart hardened by God or that this is a hard heart?
Think how ridiculous some of your statements are!  Study!

 The Holy Spirit will dwell in all who come to follow and obey Christ. This is not an action of man's free will, it is God's will. Man can only hear the word, believe and obey as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.


Ollie

L.C.

 
 No, I have the truth. You need to find it. ;)


 I answered, you refused to listen.

 How do you know that? Did you speak to him personally? He was healed, but we don't know if he was saved. There is a differnce between being healed and being saved, or don't you understand that either?

 Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise.



 Yes, you gave me verses which you took totally out of context to bolster your false position. In your convoluted world, God chooses to save some, and all others are doomed regardless of whether they have faith in Jesus or not. Why bother putting all those poor lost souls through the torture of life? Why doesn't God just wipe them out - they're not going to Heaven anyway...right? Also, why did Jesus have to come and be crucified? And why did Jesus lie and say, whoever believes in Me shall be saved?



 Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  

 Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.  


Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  


 Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  


Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Oh No! call on the name of the Lord! That sounds like a work!

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What's this?! more filthy works!

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  
 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  


The Holy Bible must be wrong! That smart guy, John (Lord) Bunyan from the web site told me it was wrong that anyone could be saved!!!! NNOOOOO! >:(

L.C. Are you interested in searching for truth?  ;D

Bronzesnake

"No we don't.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"

Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus, the saved. in these quoted verses and it has nothing to do with God choosing them in their initial coming to Christ, It has to do with what God  gives to those that are already His, (in this case the church at Ephesus),  through their faith in Christ. Which faith by the way is obtained by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word having called them to faith in Christ.
Ollie

Bronze
I appreciate your answer, thank you.
The search for truth should never end, no one has perfect understanding.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Even when I was certain I knew the truth I was never so vain as to believe I could be without error. So yes I do search for the truth, on my knees before God I seek wisdom and truth, try it some time. ;)
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer an Atheist.
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer a Reincarnationist.
It is because I searched for truth, on my knees, that I am no longer a Freewill Believer.
You still haven’t answered how I have warped the scripture.
I gave you sources of respectable Christians who believe similar to me because you accused me of warping the scripture or of being a pretend Christian antagonist. If I am, then so are those I mentioned and many more, is that still your accusation?
Spurgeon ? The original Southern Baptists? James P. Boyce? Dr. Barnhouse? John Bunyan? (I didn’t know Bunyan had been given a Lordship, were you thinking of Lord Byron?) Are these great Christian teachers and preachers warping scripture?
His sins were forgiven. What do you think that means? ??? It seems to me you are the one that doesn’t quite understand.
First he was saved THEN he was healed.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

The faith they had was Jesus would heal him of his infirmity. They had faith in Jesus, but they had no knowledge of his ability to save man.

Mark 2:7  Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mark 2:8  And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mark 2:9  Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:10  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mark 2:11  I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mark 2:12  And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

You have not answered, other than to say I warp scripture (how?), most of the verses I have given you.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 37 Everyone that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Verse 44 No one can come to Jesus unless God draws him.
Verse 45 Those that are taught of God are those that are drawn toward Jesus.
You never answered Romans 9:13-16, Deuteronomy 32:25, Psalms 58:3, Isaiah 48:8, James 1:18, basically all of John 6, Ephesians 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, etc.
You are not telling the truth when you say:
We can both claim that the other takes verses out of context, when I make the claim I do try to show you how you have taken them out of context.
The bible seems to give an indication by living on this earth he is creating something special. We are his workmanship, it seems the wicked are necessary to create what he wants in us. I am not absolutely clear on this, I could be way off base.
Your question was an old question.

Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


It wasn’t a lie, whosoever is those that God draws. Our ability to have saving belief is Gods work. John 6, etc.
Many believe but not to salvation. Even the devils believe.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The bible mentions that many that believe and call Jesus Lord, and work for him, He never knew.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please don’t be offended, I am not sure if you understand what salvation is.
To pay for the sins of those that he came to save. Sin requires a payment, the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23)
It is the second death.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It was necessary for Jesus to make that payment for those that he came to save. Once the payment is made it never needs to be made again, that is why Jesus didn’t make the payment for every person on the planet. He can’t go back and get a refund on the enormous suffering that he endured.
He began paying for our sins at the Garden of Gethsemane. This will be too long, if you do understand it is not necessary to continue. If you wish I can explain further.
Concerning your verses, I will try to be brief.
Matthew 19:28-29 does not say anything about freewill. Those that follow are those that God has chosen.
Mark 16:16, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, and all other verses that talk about believing I explained earlier, it is Gods work that we believe. John 6, Philippians 1:29,

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is a companion verse to explain the following verses:

Acts 2:21
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13

It is Gods work in us, notice how much this following verse resembles Romans 10:9.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

One of the problems that you are having comes from a misunderstanding of the Greek word <pas>.
The translators recognized that the word ‘pas’ has many meanings, so it was translated in many ways.
all 748 times, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
John 3:16 -- whosoever <pas>
1 Timothy 2:4 -- all <pas> men
Etc.
If we look at other places where this word shows up we might begin to see other possibilities.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John was a very busy guy.
 
Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all <pas> the world should be taxed.
Luke 2:3  And all <pas> went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Was ALL the world taxed?

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s an interesting one, --- ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Does this fit your definition of ‘all’?

Acts 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all <pas> that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is that right? He healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil?

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

This is an excellent and acceptable interpretation for the types of verses you put your eternity on.

John

That's an interesting thought and worthy of consideration.
Thank You, Ollie
John

I agree.
One of the main reasons I try not to offend my brothers and sisters when we disagree is because I like to imagine us all up in Heaven some day having a good discussion over a cup of joe and being amazed at what we thought was correct really wasn't and what we thought was incorrect was really correct.... and having a good laugh over it.

 L.C.



 No, it's not my opinion any longer.
I apologize, I see now that you are sincere in your beliefs, and not just an antagonist.
 I do, however, disagree with you on a few of your doctrinal stances. Free will is one of them.

 I assume you are a Calvinist.

 Scripture portrays humans as having minds and wills of their own. They are, in a real (though within certain parameters) sense, creators of their own behavior and determiners of their own destinies—whether this behavior and destiny is in line with God’s will or not. This fundamental assumption is demonstrated in a variety of ways throughout Scripture. It is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy when Yahweh tells the children of Israel:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.  

 Deu 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?  

 Deu 30:13 Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?  

Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
 
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
 
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.  

Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;  

Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.  

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:  

Whether the children of Israel are blessed or cursed depends on what they choose to do. God set before them the possibilities of life and death, but they decide which possibilities they shall actualize.

Beginning in the Garden of Eden in which God creates Adam and Eve with the ability to obey or disobey him, and continuing on throughout the Bible through the New Testament where life and death are portrayed as depending on peoples’ acceptance or rejection of the Savior, the Bible portrays people as generating their own activity and creating their own destinies by the decisions they make. God’s will is unequivocally for all to choose to obey him - to choose life and not death. But, sadly, many freely reject God to their own destruction. Creating creatures with wills of their own is risky, even for God.

  The Bible assumes that people made in the image of the free Creator are capable of freely creating on their own. This is at least part of what Scripture means when it says that humans are made in God’s image Gen. 1:26–27. We reflect God’s self-determination. We think, act and determine our destinies out of our “heart.” The Lord sets before us the possibilities of our lives, including the possibility of life or death. But we freely actualize whatever possibilities our “heart” desires.

Understanding of freedom is clear from the fact that humans often use their freedom in ways that directly contradict the Lord’s will. People are not puppets that God secretly controls, but free agents who possess significant control of their own lives, and can either cooperate with, or resist, the will of their sovereign Creator.

This contradicts the classical notion that everything in history reflects God’s sovereign will! History rather frequently reflects the will of creatures who oppose the sovereign will of the Creator. The Bible clearly teaches that God unequivocally does not will sin - But obviously sin still occurs. Similarly, the Bible explicitly states that it is not God’s will that any person would perish 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9. But many nevertheless do perish. Hence, it is clear that God’s will is not always accomplished, and God’s heart is frequently grieved.

 Bronzesnake.

Thank You,
I am very sincere, and devoted to the Lord.


While I often use the term Calvinist, I actually don’t know that much of what he believed having only read a little of his teachings. I am probably as much a Calvinist as you are an Arminian.
I am not offended to be called a Calvinist, but the term conjures up an image that is not faithful to true Calvinism.
Most think in terms of Hyper-Calvinism. The word ‘Hyper’ not how we define it today, it is an Old-English term meaning higher.
Here is a good explanation from the Founders website. http://www.founders.org/FJ24/sidebar2.html
 
Salvation is a rescue. All of us are condemned to Hell by our own actions, we do choose our sins. But we will always sin, because we are born with a corrupt heart.
That heart is the problem.
God has chosen to rescue some from this terrible situation. He does not predestine some to Hell, He just passes over them.
God is not obligated to save anyone, that He does is because of His great mercy.
Freewill makes man Lord over God. Freewill says, “I’ve done it Lord, I accept Jesus and now you are OBLIGATED to save me. You Promised. So you have to do it.”
God lays out commandments for us to do, we cannot do those commandments perfectly because our heart and our body is corrupt. Your example from Deuteronomy 30 shows this perfectly.

Deuteronomy 30:16  In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

The problem is nobody can, the heart is the problem.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The concept of God commanding us to do the impossible shows up in many places in the bible.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

How do you circumcise the foreskin of your heart?
Before someone starts carving away at their chest the answer is in, SURPRISE, Deuteronomy 30.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

We cannot change our own heart, but God can. After the change of heart (done by God) in verse 6 then we are able to obey verses 11-19.

We see this same principle in Ezekiel and Hebrews:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are we saved by keeping Gods commandments? Wouldn’t you agree that would be a work?
Yet we are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The bible answers that God gives us a heart that can believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is His work in us.

John

L.C.


 That's close, but no cigar my friend.

 Free will says..."I have accepted your sacrafise Jesus, and now I am saved. You promised to save me, so now I believe you will do it"

Bronzesnake

It still makes God obligated to fulfill what you believe to be his promise.
He is no longer sovereign.
Plus we still have that paralytic man example, no freewill decision there.  ;)
Your heart has to be changed -- Born Again -- you can’t do that.
You can contribute just as much to your second birth as you did to your first -- did you get your parents together?  :D

John

  I must respectfully say - that's ridiculous!
 That is convoluted reasoning my friend...

How can you be sure He will save anyone?
 Using your logic, God can't keep any of His promises without losing His sovereignty, so when He says "you're saved, and going to Heaven" He won't be able to keep that promise either.

 As far as the paralytic man...first of all, Yes, his sins were forgiven, but there were two good reasons why he was forgiven...

 Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.  
 
 Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.  

 Notice how Jesus never said the man was forgiven because he was pre-chosen? He was forgiven because of the faith of the crowd, and so that the crowd would understand who Jesus was. They were Jews...they knew only God could forgive sins - Jesus was showing them who He was.

 Now look at another healing and see what Jesus says to the man afterwards...

Jhn 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?  


 Jhn 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in [that] place.  


 Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.  

 Jesus warned him that he must be repentant, or "a worse thing come unto thee" what's worse than being lame?... an eternity in Hell. In other words, that man was not necessarily saved, unless he obeyed Jesus. Remember, this was before Jesus died on the cross, so that man wasn't able to be saved by Jesus' sacrifice at that time. He was still under the law. Why would Jesus give such a warning if the man was already saved?

 Look at the reason Jesus gives whenever He forgives...

Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.  

 Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.  


Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.  


 Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?  


 Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.  

 Faith has saved thee. Not because she was "chosen" by God, rather, because she had faith.

This was also the case in the Old Testament.
Faith, no pre-selection.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


 Once we accept Jesus into our lives, He enters our hearts and changes us...we are thusly, born again.

 Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

What does "whosoever" mean to you L.C.?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.  

 1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  

  1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.  

 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.  


 Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.  

 What you believe goes against everything Jesus ever said about our choosing Him.

 Why do you think Jesus keeps driving the point home..."I stand at the door, and knock" In your mind, He shouldn't be knocking, He should just walk in.

 if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 Why would Jesus try and trick those who are "not chosen", time and time again with such verses as these?

 If any man hears my voice, and opens the door. This verse is conclusive. We have the choice to "open the door" - ( accept/choose Him) once we do that, He then comes into our lives and begins changing us.

 The only way you can make your scenario fit in the face of such verses is to add your own convoluted reasoning - such as "It still makes God obligated to fulfill what you believe to be his promise. He is no longer sovereign."

 Why should we spread the Word if God has already pre-chosen who will be saved L.C.?

 Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  
 
I think where you are getting confused is in the fact that God is omniscient,  and inevitably knows who will choose Jesus and who won't, so in that manner - yes, there is “predestination”. However, not in the way you subscribe to, which is usually associated respectively with the names Calvinism and Arminianism.

Bronzesnake

You gave a good and meaty answer, I enjoyed your response.
While we disagree on the meaning of the story, I feel your response is a solid and legitimate reply from the viewpoint of your doctrine.
I do have differences with your answer, but I think your argument is valid.
Faith is a work.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith[/u].

The friends of the paraplegic man did not have faith Jesus was the savior, they viewed him as a healer and perhaps a prophet, much like the prophets of old.

1 Kings 13:6  And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king’s hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

Concerning your second healing, just because Jesus healed him physically does not mean He healed him spiritually. So yes, he was still under the law.
My thought is he wasn’t saved. Many that Jesus healed weren’t saved, in fact it is interesting that Jesus was the perfect preacher and yet few became saved while He walked on the earth.
After He went to the cross Peter gave one sermon and 5,000 became saved. All at once. 5,000 made a freewill decision all at the same time?
Not likely.
In fact the bible tells us it was Gods work.

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.[/u]

He doesn’t say, "you're saved, and going to Heaven". At least I don’t hear voices. ;)
Salvation is not a promise, it is a change.
We are born again, given a new heart, we are made into a completely different kind of a creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We have a physical body and we also have a spiritual body. Unfortunately we are born spiritually dead. That is the seed of sin in every person. Because of the sin of Adam we are separated from God.
Our salvation is a result of God changing us.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Not a promise, a change. Our soul is resurrected, just as our physical bodies will be on the Lords return.
That is why Paul talks about the war that goes on inside him. Our unsaved physical body wars with our saved soul. Because we are spiritually alive we now want to walk in His statutes.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

One of the most destructive results of the freewill gospel is the number of people that believe they are saved, because of their choice. ----  But they were never changed.
They have accepted Jesus as their saviour, but He is not their Lord.
Look at all the “Christians” getting divorced today. (Matthew 19:6)
Look at all the “Christians” that are divorced getting remarried. (1 Corinthians 7:39)
Look at all the “Christians” living together unmarried. (Hebrews 13:4)
They can love their enemies, but they can’t love their own spouses.

They seek their happiness in sin.
They reject Gods laws and commandments, his Lordship.
“Whosoever believes”, the bible is crystal clear, it is His work that we believe. The whosoever are those he has chosen, and drawn to Him.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

We are not able to have saving belief on our own. We can have an intellectual understanding, the same kind of belief that the devils had.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:



That would be called “foresight” not predestination.
Let the bible define predestination.

Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Verse 9-He made his will known to us, according to His pleasure and His purpose.
Verse 11-Predestinated by His purpose, who works all things by His will.
Verse 13-Because it is His will and purpose we hear the truth, we believe, and are sealed

Ephesians 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

We believe ACCORDING to the WORKING OF HIS POWER, not our working.

No one can withstand God if it is His intent to save them:

Acts 11:17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

L.C.

Believing that, choosing to accept Jesus is a "work" is, in my, and many other Christians opinion - ridiculous.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Bronzesnake.

Can a baby do it?
Man has an intellect varying in ability from a baby to the Einstein’s of the world.
If you do something it is a work.
Does accepting Jesus require your effort?
Yes there are many Christians that believe as you do, and there are many that believe as I do.
There are also many that believe in reincarnation.
And if the number of Christians believing one way or another is important to you we are both out numbered by the Catholics of the world.

From Merriam-Webster Online, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=work&x=18&y=19


WORK:
 
1 : activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result

More importantly the bible says it is Gods WORK that you believe.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The bible says it is God that adds to the church:

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The bible says NO ONE will come to God unless HE draws them:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And the bible says that EVERYONE He draws WILL come to Him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Of course those that believe their salvation is based on their work of accepting Jesus do not believe they have done a work.
A ridiculous position to take. ;)

L.C.

 
 That's a bit disingenuous L.C.
Yes, it is a "work" If that was your only assertion, then, that would be fine - I would agree. However, you go much farther than this L.C. You assert that we have no FREE WILL to chose Jesus as our saviour, in spite of the many verses which clearly state Jesus telling us that WHOSOEVER believes in Me, shall be saved.

 Here are verses which Ollie posted in order to show that this type of "work" is rightious in God's eyes...

 John 6:27.  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 In your mind, this choice, or "free will" is a sinful "work" in the same manner as those who do not believe in Jesus - and who believe that - as long as "I'm a good person, who does good things, then God will accept me" That's not Biblical my friend.

Bronzesnake.

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.


 As the verse says IT IS GODS WORK THAT YOU BELIEVE.
I wish I could address this some more but I have to head out of town for a few days.
There is still John 6 to deal with.

John

I am deist and I believe in God because of the universe. How can everything be here if there is no being that created it all.

L.C.


 No, it doesn't...it implies it.

 I know full well where the word comes from, and just because you pointed it out doesn't mean you understand it's meaning - as a matter of fact - it's quite clear that you do not understand it's meaning. I will show you the proper meaning of 'pas' at the end of this post my friend.

In your mind - why did God create all the unsaved people?
If - as you mistakenly believe, God has pre-selected His team - then why bother creating all the others who will simply be fried, regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not?

Your God kills babies, and the mentally retarded. Your God enjoys watching people suffer, who haven't got any chance at salvation whatsoever.

That is not Jesus Christ my friend - no matter how you slice it.

 Your explanation of "whosoever" is just ridiculous...

L.C. Quote...

 Why use the word "whosoever" then? That word is seriously out of context in every verse which it appears with your incorrect interpretation of the word. Why even use that word at all? -  why not simply say "My chosen"


 If that's true, then how do you explain the following verse...

 Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 Here's the way you understand that verse...

Those who I have chosen, shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

  Here's the way you understand that verse...

 Mat 16:25 For Those who I have chosen will save his life shall lose it: and Those who I have chosen will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

 Your interpretation...

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Those who I have chosen shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

Your interpretation...

Luk 9:26 For Those who I have chosen shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Your interpretation...

Luk 14:27 And Those who I have chosen doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Your interpretation...

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That Those who I have chosen is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and Those who I have chosen shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but Those who I have chosen shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Your interpretation...

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but Those who I have chosen shall say shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 Yours...

Mat 10:14 And Those who I have chosen shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 Shall I continue?


Dictionary meaning...
whosoever

\Who`so*ev"er\ (h[=oo]`s[-o]*[e^]v"[~e]r), pron. Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.

Whosoever will, let him take . . . freely. --Rev. xxii. 17.

New Testament Greek Lexicon

Original Word...
pa'ß

Transliterated Word...
Pas
1)individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
 
2)collectively
some of all types

 L.C.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour? Or are you hoping He has chosen you?
 
 This discussion is over for me L.C. You are in a severe minority on this forum with your convoluted reasoning my friend. It wouldn't matter how long this thread continued - I will not change my belief in the sacrifice of Jesus and the offer of eternal forgiveness and salvation He offers to us ALL. This is not an exclusive club L.C. It is inclusive - it is for everyone, and anyone.

Now that you have been shown the correct meaning of the word "whosoever" you might be able to grasp a truth which has so far eluded you my friend. Please re-read the following verses...

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Luk 7:23 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Mar 9:37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.  

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is a verse (below) that you should take very seriously my friend. If you have not accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and saviour...

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Bronzesnake.

 This topic hasn't got anything to do with whether we believe in God or not. We're debateing a doctrinal issue on free will.

 By the way - what makes you think God abandoned us? especially in light of what Jesus told us.

Bronzesnake.

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

Brother, your love is obvious in trying to help bds, but he is one of the party goers here with a fairly large group. We were the entertainment, and he is gone, along with other identities. There may yet be others involving hacking, spoofed accounts, and an unknown number of people here to laugh at us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 Thanks for watching our backs Tom. You have a tough job here, and you take a lot of guff - a lot of us come to you when we're being attacked, and you jump right in there and make the world right again...

Thanks my brother....again!

Bronzesnake.

...i'm agnostic by the way Your in one of my FAVORITE religions :)


Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Brother, you are most welcome, but ADMIN gets all of the credit for this one and I don't know how many more. bds195 was only one in the Christian hunting party. I have an idea about others who are still here, and I just reported three others who are back from being banned. WOW! - the devil is busy attacking Christians Unite. I give thanks that ADMIN has gone to so much trouble in keeping Christians Unite up and going.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Love,

Brother, I think that I have something about this in my notes. However, my notes have grown so large and unorganized over the last two weeks, that it would take an entire tribe of Pygmy scribes a week to organize them.   ;D

 :D  Brother, I'm working on it, but the Pygmy scribes refused to help me.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Take that to the next level. If God is God then He created this universe as a perfect universe. But that is not what we find. We see that mankind is under a curse and all human beings die. So the same Creator provided a remedy. He chose to intervene in the affairs of humanity by Himself becoming the Saviour. And that's what the Gospel is all about.

Deism says that God wound up the "clock" of this universe and walked away. Christ says that God -- as Christ Jesus -- gave His own lifeblood and life for our redemption instead of walking away. Thus Deism has only questions, while the Gospel has the answers. Repent and be converted.

I don't see anybody else dying for my wrong doings.  
My proof in God, and His Word is that there is evidence evey time I pray, everytime I live a day and see the results that could never have been on my part.  
These evidences are so true that only one knowing that God is the all powerful, and studying His Word can manifest the truth of His Word and His Being.
Until one trusts as the Word of God explains that Jesus is God's son  and did live, die, and resurrect for us because God loves us so much that He will give us everlasting life, then God cannot reveal the Wisdom of your question.
You see, God loves all people, and continually gives us information building until we have enough faith in those truths that He will make evident, and therefore, we either will reject Him or trust in Him the rest of our lives.
He just wants to love you and give you a blessed life. He doesn't want to take anything away from you, unless it's not good for your benefit.  That's all He wants to do, and is waiting with open arms.  
Take care, and remember,
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.   John 3:16    
In Christ, iconHis   ;D

Bronzesnake
This is probably my last or close to my last post on this forum.
You say you will no longer carry on with me, so be it. I feel I must reply since you have perverted my words and made false statements concerning what I have said.
It is going to take more than one post I could have made it much longer, there is a lot of material that supports my stand in the OT and NT.
It only implies it in your mind, I also used to be of the same mind.
Why not let God define what He means by whosoever.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Whosoever is those God has drawn. There is no mention of freewill here. It is all Gods work.


You have twisted my words, I don’t think you did it on purpose.
Forgive me for my failure to explain clearly.  I hope by the end of this letter I can clarify. At no time did I intend to claim whosoever means, “those I have chosen”, not sure how you got there but I will accept fault.

The definition of the word ‘pas’ that I gave in an earlier post will hopefully help clear this up:

Not only does ‘pas’ have many translations but those translations have many meanings.
When you look at the two examples above you should hopefully see that the word ‘pas’ can refer to an exclusive group of people. There are other times when it is inclusive.
If all we had was, “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” we could agree that it was inclusive, meaning open to everyone. But the bible must be taken as a whole, not isolating scripture.
God shows us with John 6:44 that in this instance it is an exclusive word limited to those He has drawn.
Why ignore this scripture?
In John 6:37 God uses this word ‘pas’ to point out that it is referring to an exclusive group.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

You can choose to follow your English dictionary definition if you wish, I am going to trust in Gods definition, as it is found in the bible.

1Th 2:12  That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Has He called you?
That is not my understanding at all, you are putting words in my mouth, or keyboard. ;)
Why the attacks? Why the false witness?

Mr 10:19  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

It is not very becoming. And it is not necessary.

Part 2
The answer to both questions is, YES!
The question is have YOU been born again?
Why do you reject John 6?
Why do you reject so much of the bible? The ENTIRE BIBLE preaches election.

Ro 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

1Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Mans pride leads Him to think he is in control, we’re control freaks. Picture the guy that is lost and refuses to ask directions, “gotta do it myself.”
We have a need to be in control of our salvation not really surrendering everything to God. Not accepting Gods authority over our life.
 Yes, and Spurgeon also had convoluted reasoning. As did Knox, Newton, and so many others.
Jesus and His followers have always been a minority.
If you want to be part of a majority you might want to consider Hinduism, if you want to be in the majority of those claiming Christ you might want to consider becoming a Catholic.
I could answer all your whosoever verses but you have chosen to turn your ear away from truth to cling to your works.
If He wanted ALL to be saved why did Jesus speak in parables?

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

We are all created unsaved, we are all born spiritually dead. You don’t understand how bad it is.

Ro 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.


There is none that seeketh after God, therefore the whosoever that would choose by freewill is none.
To choose God would be good verse 12 there is none that doeth good.
My God judges mankind justly, there is salvation for babies and the mentally retarded WITH my gospel NOT yours.
Your gospel would leave them out so you INVENTED an age of accountability, adding it to the bible.
But your age of accountability can’t address those that have lived on this earth for a period of time and are now living brain damaged.
You have no salvation for those that did not accept Jesus before Alzheimers, brain injuries, or other illnesses took their intellectual ability to choose.  
Yours is the one that condemns.
You make salvation a requirement of man to choose, so you would have God condemning men for not choosing Him when it would have been impossible to do so.
If they have never heard of Him they can’t choose Him.

Ro 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We are the dry bones:

Eze 37:1 ¶  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

John

   L.C.

 
 Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am insulting you John. Why are you "struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not" That's foolish my friend. This is a forum where people debate biblical doctrine. You didn't expect everyone to agree with you all the time did you? if there was no difference of opinion there would be no debate would there? How can we expect to learn anything if we all agree with each other all the time?

 I encourage you to stay my friend. I know it is difficult to gage a persons attitude through reading a post - sometimes it appears as though there's anger, or disrespect aimed at us - when in fact, that is not the case at all.

 I said I was through debating with you because we have covered this topic to it's fullest. I don't mean to imply that I will never debate, or discuss with you on other topics my friend. I have actually enjoyed our interaction, and look forward to more.

 My belief on this topic can be simplified thusly...

 I go into a store wanting to purchase greatly needed supplies for my family. The store owner informs me that I am well over my credit limit, and he can no longer sell me supplies until I pay up my debt. I am in danger of loosing my home, and starving to death. Just then, a man walks over to me and says... "I have overheard your conversation with the owner of this store. He is my father and he asked me to come to you and offer to pay your debt. He also told me that if you accepted this offer - I could pay for your supplies from this day forward - you no longer have to be in debt ever again. Will you accept this free gift?"

 You see - the father drew his son to me. Now, it's up to me whether I accept the free gift or not. He doesn't force Himself on us. He wants us to love Him - to accept Him of our own free will - from our hearts.

 This is your scenario...

 I walked into a store for the first time wanting to buy supplies for my family. The owner called me over to him and said..." From this day forward, I will pay for all your supplies whether you want me to or not."

 The verses I posted in regards to the word "whosoever" are easily discerned. The meaning can only be taken one way, or else the verses do not make sense. I tried to point that out to you. I wasn't trying to be insulting or sarcastic. We can easily understand the meaning of the word "whosoever" even if, as you claim, there are several different meanings, by the context of the verse. It's not difficult my friend.

 God does draw us to Him - however, we decide whether we accept His free gift or not.

 I do not want to argue this any further my friend. You have your belief, I have mine. Let's leave this topic at that.

 I do look forward to engaging in discussion with you in the near future John.

God Bless you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

This is my last post. At least that is my intent.
It is not the disagreeing.
You put words in my mouth that I did not say.
You twisted my words.
There is especially no need for statements such as:
That is not debate and that is not constructive.
If my reasoning is convoluted then so are those men I mentioned and so are the founders of the Southern Baptists, such as James P. Boyce: http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html
Or James Montgomery Boice former senior minister at Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia: http://www.tenth.org/boiceupdate.html and http://www.reformedreader.org/t.u.l.i.p.htm
What is the purpose of those kinds of comments, other than to try to insult?
Don’t jump to any conclusions here, I am not hurt, I read such comments with a certain sad humor. Sadness that you feel you need to use them. Humor that you think it accomplishes anything.
I have been married and divorced twice from the same woman, I have heard insults. ;)
 I thought and expected that debate is what would take place on this forum.
What has taken place is similar to ethnic cleansing.
Catholic doctrine is closer to your beliefs than mine, so what I am saying is not a result of debates against me.
Post after post is being sanitized, as any reference to Catholic is being removed. In the process many excellent posts showing the errors of the Catholic faith are also being removed. Posts that are faithful to the gospel and of benefit to anyone searching for truth -- removed.
Many people spent many hours in research and typing.
I am a lyxdesic hunt and peck typist who’s fingers often miss the target. Do you know how frustrating it is to have to retype because I missed shift and hit caps lock. i DIDN’T INTEND TO SHOUT SO i RETYPE.
A lot of hard work callously thrown away.
The name of this forum is christiansunite.
A more proper definition is:
Christians, as we define them, unite. If you don’t fit our definition then you are not a Christian and not invited to share the basis your faith. Even though most of the world considers you Christian, we do not, so get out of town.
It is an adversarial position, inviting problems.
I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.
Only God knows the heart.

Mt 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is especially interesting since Heidi stated Jesus was her Lord and saviour, isn’t that the freewill requirement? There is no doubt that she did not have a full understanding of the gospel, but that comes in God’s time.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

The gospel offends and I expect people to be offended, like you have been with what I say. But I back up everything with scripture. I want to make sure you know it is not the creation of my mind.
A little over 10 years ago I was a freewill believer like you, fortunately God had humbled me earlier by showing me that something I absolutely positively knew was right was wrong. You see 15 years earlier I was positive that reincarnation was the truth. I wasted many years believing in that garbage. I was too proud to look at the other side.
So when I began to become aware of the teaching of election I was a little more willing to admit I could be wrong in freewill just as I was with reincarnation, I was receptive to learning truth.
I approach these debates with the possibility that election is wrong, when I give verses such as those in John 6 I look to see if you can address them properly, you haven’t. There is no debate.
You have my scenario a little off.
In my scenario I have committed crimes against the King.. I am in prison, and I am guilty. There is no way out. By all rights I should rot there.
All I can do is cry out for mercy. The King hears my cry and chooses to have mercy on me.
Another scenario, and a true story:
Most every year my employer deposits extra money in my bank account at Christmas for a bonus. It is just there I don’t actively accept it the money is a free gift.
Such is Gods gift.
Another scenario:
As soon as you walk in to the hospital you are told your identical twin brother has died. You have a heart attack and also die. His heart is put in you and you live, how can you take the heart out?

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
 
That is your opinion, they do make sense, you just don’t see that yet.
I understand how you see it, I used to see it that way too.
That was not an insult to me, but convoluted? ;) That was a weak insult.
You put words in my mouth, I did not say. It doesn’t really hurt me, but you didn’t need to go there.
Your definition has not eluded me at all, I used to agree with it. I was blind but now I see.

 That contradicts scripture:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2Th 2:13 ¶  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope you don’t misunderstand me, I have very much enjoyed my discussions with you.
What I have called insults I consider very minor and not really a distraction.
It was the policy makers and enforcers of policy that were so bothered by the insults and debate that they have chosen to sanitize the forum.
I point out insults to show that it was not something limited to Catholic debates.
There are many forums out there that are open to all, I am 52 years old, I am not a baby, I don’t need a censor to protect me from what is said.
Since I believe everything is in Gods hands I have no fear that someone would be lead astray by a fast talking Catholic.
Because I believe it is God that gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear I have no problem with leaving Heidi’s remarks about God the father and Jesus the son available for all to see. In fact if there are others that are struggling with the question I think you and I and others did an excellent job of explaining her error.
I am not leaving this forum because of anything you have said or done.
I happen to enjoy and learn from debate.
After debating with Michael I realized my understanding of a verse of scripture was wrong, he showed me my error --- he was in error also, but now I have a greater understanding.
Ollie did an excellent job of presenting an alternate viewpoint to another verse, I don’t necessarily agree with his interpretation but it was a valid point to make.
There are many other examples I could give.
Some people may need to have a censor to protect them. I need a little more honesty.
I am going to miss many people here, and many people have been booted off that I will miss.
Maybe I will see you somewhere else.
I usually pick names that reflect where I live.
Eugene, Oregon on the Left Coast of the USA. In the Willamette valley. I have Wood Ducks in my back yard. Etc.
I pretty much always let people know my name is John.

Ps 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Ro 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Ex 28:3  And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Ac 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ac 10:41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Ro 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ga 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God Bless,
John

L.C.

 First of all - If I have offended you, I do honestly apologize. The word convoluted, is not a derogatory word John. It simply means, Intricate; complicated. Which I truly believe some of your reasoning on this topic is. That's not an insult my brother.

 I do not want to continue with this topic. I respect your belief - please respect mine.

I think you are making a mistake leaving this forum, although I do understand your reasons why. It's not easy being a moderator, and sometimes people post using many different usernames. Some posts are somewhat controversial, although not banable, while under the guise of another username, the same person might cross the line. We just don't know what the moderator knows John. I have been a moderator myself, and it is a difficult job trying to make a forum a place where many different people can post and feel comfortable, without being heckled, or attacked. A lot of good people have left this forum because of being attacked, or insulted.

 We can't really judge the moderator. He knows things we do not. The moderator here is a faithful Christian, and a good man. He has made mistakes, and has openly admitted as much and has asked for forgiveness because of them. He is doing a good job and he needs our support, even if we might not agree with his decisions John.

 This forum will lose an honest, faithful poster if you decide to leave. Think of the new Christians who may simply be browsing this forum who you may be helping without even knowing it. It would be a shame for that to happen. I have learned from your posts...remember when you challenged me to find scriptures which described those who never knew of the bible being automatically forgiven? I believed this was the case. However, when you challenged me on it, I admitted I was wrong, and posted scriptures which proved you were correct on that one. I actually dug into scripture and learned from you on that one.

 If you decide to leave, I respect that decision John. I would still encourage you to reconsider though.

Bless you John...

Bronzesnake (John)

L.C.

 I actually have stayed up all night thinking about our debate.
I know I have stated that I no longer wish to discuss this topic with you, however - after some deep thought and prayer, I came to the conclusion that I should do my honest best to guide you to what I truly believe is the God's Truth about predestination.
 I believe that you are an honest Christian, and that if I could present you with a convincing argument, you would not be too proud to admit you were wrong. I will do likewise, if you should present to me, convincing evidence which would make me realize that I have been wrong. In that case, I will admit my mistake.

 Therefore, I will continue this discussion, at least for a while.

 I would like to pray openly, right now, before I begin, that our Father in Heaven guide my thoughts and keep me from insulting, or offending you in any way L.C. Amen...

John ( Bronzesnake )

 To continue On Next Post..

Hello Left Coast,

There was really nothing to judge when Heidi posted all over the forum that Jesus Christ is not God. So, I would have no clue who she believes in. Those in Islam also believe in Jesus, but he was just a man or a prophet according to them. Since Jesus is the only WAY, they couldn't possibly be saved. That's simply a statement, on their part, that they are lost.

I have no problem at all in calling you brother, even though we disagree with a lot of things. We can each pick and choose what we wish to debate and simply agree to disagree.

I would second the thoughts of Bronzesnake. I hope that you reconsider and stay.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 This is going to be very long L.C.
and much of the following comes from different sources, including Dr. Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, and
Michael Bronson.

here we go my friend...

I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The Bible says people are going to Hell against God’s will. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:34 says, "For there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame."

The Bible says people are perishing because no one has brought them the message. Hosea 4:6 says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

 You believe that before God created the universe, He selected certain people to go to Heaven and the rest go to Hell. Yet, the Bible says Hell was created for the fallen angels, not us (Matthew 25:41).

In your belief, the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. That God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view..

1) There are hundred of verses in the Bible that clearly show God changing His mind and altering His plans because of our actions or inactions.

2) There are many evil and sinful things going on in the world. Do we really want to say God forcibly made people commit these heinous acts?

3) We cannot be held accountable for our sins if we have no say or choice in any of our actions. It would be unjust to send a person to Hell for something he did not choose to do.

Some selective salvationists believe God preplanned people’s lives (forced them to become Christians and perform great services for Him). If this were true, you would think He would have planned lives that would consistently glorify Him. Instead, we find many of His leaders (Saul, David, Samson, Solomon, etc) made some major blunders and had their years of service cut short.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

God said to the whole Nation of Israel, "Seek me and live" (Amos 5:4). God was offering his plan of salvation to the whole Nation of Israel. Yet the Bible clearly says not all of the Israelites became believers. This means many of the people God wanted to go to Heaven ended up going to Hell.

The Bible says we can resist God. For example, Matthew 23:37 says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
This means some people were resisting God’s call to salvation. It also means some people went to Hell against His desire.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."

There are dozens of verses that talk about how we can be easily led astray from God and salvation. This shows our eternal destinies have not been pre-planned.

The Bible says our surroundings can greatly influence our eternal destiny. For example, Matthew 19:24 says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven"

Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual damnation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.

  I believe predestination is inconsistent with observable facts

If selective salvation were true, you would expect an even distribution of Christians all over the world. In contrast to this, we find areas with very high concentrations of Christians and other areas with very low concentrations of Christians.

If selective salvation were true, exposure to the gospel should not have any impact on how many people become Christians in a given area. Yet, areas with a strong gospel witness have a high number of believers and areas with little or no gospel witness have few or no new Christians.

If selective salvation were true, parental influence should not increase or decrease a child’s chance of becoming a Christian. However, we find children raised in Christian homes are much more likely to become Christians than children who are raised in atheistic homes. In fact, children who are raised by strong, mature Christians are much more likely to become Christians than children raised by weak and spiritually immature Christians.

The Bible has over a hundred verses that clearly say salvation is offered to "everyone," - "whosoever," and the whole "world." Yet, selective salvationists say salvation is only offered to the select few. To get around these verses, selective salvationists say these verses are only talking about the elect. In other words, verses that say "… salvation is offered to everyone" should actually be read as "… salvation is offered to everyone of the elect." To force this type of interpretation on hundreds of verses, selective salvationists have violated multiple basic rules of Biblical interpretation.
( This is not intended as an insult L.C., just an observation )

In addition to the above problem, there are many verses where this type of forced conclusion still would not work. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." Using your rules of interpretation, this verse should read: "He is the atoning sacrifice for the elect’s sins, and not only for the elect’s sins, but also for the sins of the elect." (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth my friend, I'm simply trying to point out the facts)

selective salvationists say God has chosen certain people over other people. Yet, the Bible says God does not pick one person over another. For example, Acts 10:34 says, "God is no respecter of persons."

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, salvation is open to everyone in the world. What would God say differently in the Bible (from what He has already said) that would show salvation is open to everyone in the world? The Bible already has over 100 verses saying salvation is offered to everyone.

God "sought a man after His own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14). If selective salvation is true God already knows the mindset of each person (He’s the one who preprogrammed each person’s life). If He already knows each person’s mindset, why was He searching for people with a particular mindset?

David was "a man after God’s own heart" (Acts 13:22). If God created the elect’s heart and mindset, wouldn’t all of the elect be people after God’s own heart?

Joshua said, "Choose you this day who you shall serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). If God already chose our destiny for us, why was it so important for Joshua to make this admonition?

To Continue On Next post...

 

Problems caused by the predestination doctrine

If people are predestined for salvation, parental influence will not increase a child’s chance of becoming a Christian. If this is true, Christian parents should have the same number of Christian children as atheistic parents. This of course is not true.

selective salvationists counter the above problem by saying children of the elect are also elect. This approach creates many new problems. For example...

Since Adam and Eve were part of the elect, all of their descendants (which means everyone) should also be part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Noah was part of the elect, all of his family and their descendants (which means everyone) should also be part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Abraham was part of the elect, his son Ishmael was also one of the elect. This would mean all of his descendants (the Arab nations) are also part of the elect. This, of course, is not true.

Since Isaac was part of the elect, his twin sons (Jacob and Esau) were also part of the elect. Yet, some selective salvationists say God hated Esau and condemned him to Hell. If children of the elect are also elect, Esau should be one of the elect.

If children of the elect are also part of the elect, then 100% of the children from Christian parents would be Christians. We don’t, however, find this.

 

Predestination is inconsistent with the nature of God

The Bible provides us with a general description of God’s nature. It describes Him as a loving, compassionate, fair, and righteous being. The doctrine of selective salvation totally contradicts this description. A basic premise of selective salvation is God chose to love or hate certain people purely on an arbitrary basis. This contradicts the nature of God outlined in the Bible. For example...

You would expect a loving God would love all of His creation.

You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."

"Hate" is a strong emotion. It is an emotion developed in response to an offense. To passionately hate someone who has not yet existed does not even make sense.

A person who is "sovereign" over another being will treat the other being in a manner consistent with his own nature. A dog owner, for example, is basically "sovereign" over his dog. Yet, a good owner would never mistreat his dog. Likewise, a sovereign God who is loving and compassionate would never mistreat His creation simply because "He can." Arbitrarily condemning a person to Hell before he is even created (with no choice, say, or recourse) is not the actions of a loving and compassionate God. A good person (sovereign or not) would never mistreat his subjects.

   

Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose jesus, and He also chose you)...

 L.C.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour? Or are you hoping He has chosen you?
 

You told me that God can’t be sovereign if we have a free will to make choices. You believe that giving us the ability to make choices would be the same as us telling God Almighty what to do. You believe that God can’t be God if He is not in full control of everything.

The issue of choice is the Achilles’ heel of predestination. The doctrine falls apart when the issue of choice is closely examined. There are many aspects of "choice" that contradict the doctrine of selective salvation. Following are some examples...

There are hundreds of verses that say we have the ability to make choices. Either the Bible is lying or we have the ability to make choices.

Love is an emotion that is earned. You can’t force someone to love you. In order for us to truly have the ability to love God, we need to have the ability to reject Him. You can’t love if you don’t have the ability to hate L.C..

We would not be able to ask God to alter events if everything is already set in stone. There are dozens of verses that say our prayers will prompt God to respond. Even the great spiritual leaders of the Bible understood the power of prayer. There are hundreds of verses showing this.

Our actions should never provoke an emotional response from God if He has preprogrammed all of our decisions and actions. This would be as illogical as me turning on a light switch and becoming angry when the light turns on. It is obvious from the Bible we can provoke a response from God.

There are dozens of verses showing our obedience can produce a positive response from God.

There are hundreds of verses showing God can be provoked to anger or jealousy by our sins.

The Bible says God holds some of our choices in high esteem. The only way our choices could have value to God is if our choices were made from a free heart. Choices that are forced on us would hold no intrinsic value to God. Following are some examples...

The life of Job demonstrates that even Satan understands we have the freedom to make choices. Satan knows we often choose to curse God when we are faced with great adversity. It brought great pleasure and glory to God when Job remained faithful in the midst of his great suffering. There would not have been any exceptional glory or victory for God if Job was forced to remain faithful.

None of our decisions would have any value if our actions are forced on us. If predestination is true, a person’s decision to return a penny that doesn’t belong to him would bring as much glory, honor, and pleasure to God as a poor person’s decision to return $100 million that doesn’t belong to him.

There are many places in the Bible that say God places high value on obedience. Why should God be so pleased with obedience if all of our actions are forced on us?

As we saw in the above paragraphs, God is pleased when we make good choices. If these "small" choices bring pleasure to God, think about how much pleasure it would bring God when we would make a good choice on the most important decision (salvation)?

The parables of the lost items (lost sheep, lost coin, and the lost son – Luke 15:3-32) are another example why selective salvation can’t be true. These parables show there is great joy when a lost item is recovered. The Bible says this is especially true when a lost sinner is saved.

You would expect this type of reaction from God with open salvation, but you would not expect it with selective salvation. In fact, with selective salvation, there is no cause for celebration when a person gets saved. There are no lost souls who are salvaged. There are no people rescued from the gates of Hell. All of the people who get "saved" were actually saved long before the world was created. These parables don’t make sense if selective salvation is true. It would be like a person pretending to lose a coin and then throwing a large party when he "finds" it.

There is an accountability problem if all of our decisions and actions are forced on us. Here are some examples...

If all of our actions are forced on us, we can’t be held accountable for our actions. We can’t be punished for sins we were forced to commit.

The fact there are varying amounts of rewards in Heaven demonstrates we do have control over our choices.

The fact there are varying degrees of punishment in Hell shows we do have control over our choices.

To Continue On Next post...

 

 Confusing issues explained

Election deals with the selection for service; not salvation. In fact, it couldn’t be talking about salvation. Jesus and the angels were part of the "elect," but they didn’t need to be saved. The Nation of Israel was part of the elect, but not all of them were saved.

Predestination simply means something has been predetermined to take place in the future. Although most Christians think of it in connection with the Bible, this concept is also found in the secular world. For example, anyone who becomes a policeman is predestined (predetermined) to have certain attributes (such as the authority to arrest people...right Tom?). As you can see, the word predestination does not need to have some mystical or divine implication.

Just as man can predetermine certain things to take place in the future, so can God. As we will see in the upcoming chapters, God has predetermined that the people who become Christians will obtain certain attributes (such as being conformed to the image of His Son). Nowhere in the Bible does it say God has predetermined to arbitrarily send some people to Heaven and the remainder to Hell.

The verse "Esau I hated" is often used to support the doctrine of selective salvation. Yet, if you look at the life of Esau, there is no evidence God hated or deplored him. It is possible the word "hate" was used as a contrast. There are several places in the Bible that uses the word "hate" when it doesn’t really mean hate. For example, we are told to hate our parents and ourselves if we want to follow God. If you look at the chapter dealing with this issue, it appears that the statement probably means, "I have chosen to use Jacob (to be the forefather of the Messiah) and not Esau."

I've read that verses talking about God hardening Pharaoh’s heart have also been used to support selective salvation. God, however, did not harden Pharaoh’s heart toward salvation. Rather, He hardened Pharaoh’s heart toward Moses’ requests. God only hardened Pharaoh’s heart in the direction he had already chosen for himself.  

selective salvationists have also used the verses that say, "I have chosen you" to support selective salvation. It is true God has chosen us (the whole world) to be saved. God’s choice of redemption applies only to the human race; it does not apply to the fallen angelic race that's one of the reasons satan and his demons are so angry with God, and why they hate us so much John. We are offered salvation through the shed blood of Jesus, and they are not offered the same.

Romans 9:21 says God is the potter and we are the clay. Selective salvationists often use this verse as proof God has chosen certain people for salvation. This verse is talking about service, not salvation. There are several places in the Old Testament that use the illustration of the potter and clay. These verses refer to Israel as being the clay. Since only a portion of the Israelites were believers, these verses could not be referring to salvation. These verses are talking about God using the Nation of Israel to accomplish a task.

 I guess I'll stop here and let you respond John. After that, I'll continue if you like.

Bronzesnake.

Hi Bronzesnake,
I have thought about this, I don’t want to end this as long as there is an interest.
I will not join any new topics but I will continue this topic at least until work sends me out of town for a significant time.
My reply will also be very long.
I don’t know anything about Michael Bronson, but I am very familiar with Van Impe, and Lindsey. Both of these men interpret scripture out of their minds.
Mans mind is very creative and can come up with all sorts of things.
For example Lindsey found a word in Ezekiel 38 that he decided meant Russia. The word <ro’sh>.

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief <ro’sh> prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

This word ‘ro’sh’ appears 598 times in the bible beginning with:

Ge 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads <ro’sh>.

There is no way “ro’sh” means Russia, this kind of reckless teaching is indicative of the way Lindsey teaches, out of his creative mind instead of the bible.
I was watching Van Impe many years ago and he made all sorts of ridiculous statements that he couldn’t support with scripture such as the locusts of Revelation being Huey Helicopters. One claim he made I would like to address in detail.
He claimed that Satan calling down fire from heaven would be nuclear bombs. The bible doesn’t talk about Huey Helicopters and it doesn’t talk about nuclear bombs.

Re 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Because this prophecy is being fulfilled today and is one very important sign we are very close to the end I would like to explain this prophecy - with the bible, not by pulling things out of thin air with the mind.
It may seem to be convoluted ;) reasoning to you but please spend a little time thinking about it.
When I read about wireless networking it seems pretty convoluted to me.
Fire from heaven refers to judgment.

2Ki 1:10  And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

It was suggested to Jesus that he call down fire from heaven.

Lu 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Jesus replied:

Lu 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

After Jesus left the garden of Gethsemane he was met by a group that came to take him just as they came to take Elijah in 2Kings. Jesus was indeed a man of God, by all rights he should have called down fire from heaven.
If he had he would not have finished paying for our sins. He began his work in the garden he finished it when he rose from the dead, I will cover this in detail later. A substitute for fire was used.

John 18:3  Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
John 18:4  Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5  They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.  
 
The substitute for fire from heaven is to cause people to fall backward. Judas was there, Satan was there in Judas.

Lu 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

To fall backward is another sign of judgment.

Ge 49:16  Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Satan understood the substitute, he was not able to call literal fire down from heaven.

1Ki 18:23  Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
1Ki 18:24  And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Baal could not bring down fire from heaven:

1Ki 18:26  And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1Ki 18:29  And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

Today we have a phenomenon taking place in churches called “the slaying of the spirit” you have probably seen Benny Hinn do this on TV where people are caused to fall backward - the substitute for fire from heaven.
You may not agree with what I have said, but it is all from the bible.
Van Impe’s nuclear bombs answer for fire from heaven comes from the mind.
I have found that a great deal of the freewill salvation plan comes from the mind.
Many years ago an elderly man who had been a bible teacher for over 50 years showed me that truth comes by comparing scripture with scripture.

1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We may not always understand what is in view but the scripture does not contradict. If we find ourselves or someone else saying, “I think this means...” when we are not using the bible to support the exact meaning, be wary, be doubtful and be suspicious.

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

End of intro

Then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The world represents the unsaved. It does not represent the entire population of the planet. It does not represent all of the unsaved. It represents those He has come to save.
Compare to:

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him. A select group.
Just think about this for a minute.
How many times does a sin have to be paid for?
I am going to trust you understand only once.
To pay for our sins Jesus literally had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in hell for every sin we have ever committed. He had to make the full payment.
He began this in the garden of Gethsemane.
He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mt 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Count backward.
Day 3 - Sunday He rose from the grave.
Night 3 - Saturday night He was in the grave
Day 2 - Saturday He was in the grave.
Night 2 - Friday night in the grave.
Day 1 - Friday on the cross
Night 1 - Thursday night in the garden.

There are some key words to show He began the payment while in the Garden.

Lu 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

He was in agony - suffering.
A very strange statement - sweat as drops of blood.
Sweat points to His work.
His Blood washes us clean from our sins.

Re 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God chose the words very deliberately.
If He paid for the sins of every single person on the planet then there are only two possibilities.
1. No one goes to hell. The sins of Judas - paid. The sins of Hitler - paid. The sins of Saddam’s sons - paid.
If they do go to hell then it is because of the second possibility.
2. Christ gets a refund on the immense suffering He endured. That is not possible.
The only possibility is He only made the payment for those that would become saved.
It could be He knew who would freely choose Him (your way), or it could be He knew who He would choose (my way). It is not possible that he paid for the sins of those that will be in hell.

The way you are trying to understand this contradicts scripture.
Not only John 17:9 as shown above but other verses also. Such as:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Why hide it from them if he wants them to come to repentance?
God did not create man as a sinner, but Adam sinned so we all perish. God never wanted it, but He knew it would happen.
God also wants man to come to repentance, but no one will of their own power.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We can’t blame God for the position we are in, but our position is hopeless, unless He intervenes and rescues (saves) us.

More to come....

It doesn’t say he turned his back on Jesus and it doesn’t say he could not part with his riches. Read this a little more carefully.

Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mr 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

One of the reasons I decided to answer your post is because this very topic just came up on another forum I am involved in.
I don’t believe the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, I believe Jesus saved him. He was grieved because he had things he did not want to give up.
There are a lot of sins we can’t wait to get rid of. But there are others we want to hold on to. For instance:
Two people in love, unmarried and living together. One becomes saved the other does not. The one that is saved realizes they must leave the relationship. They still love the other person but even marriage is not a possibility because then they would be unequally yoked.
Don’t you agree that would be very grievous? This rich young ruler was not miserable in his world, he was very comfortable. He wasn’t hurting anyone with his lifestyle, to give it up would be grievous.
There are some very definite statements concerning Gods love.
While Billy Graham might say Jesus loves everyone, I have never been able to find scripture to support that.
My former pastor spent 6-8 sermons trying to prove it, I felt he was trying to force a square peg into a too small round hole with a sledge hammer.
He gives good sermons but in this case he only proved to me that there is no evidence.
The fact God hated Esau does not contradict the scripture.

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

The bible says God hates all sinners.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

For me the question is why did he love Jacob? Of the two Esau seemed to be the good son.
I think the answer is that when we become saved all of our sins are washed clean. God not only forgives our sins but he forgets them, and so He no longer sees us as sinners.
So in John when he mentions the one whom the Lord loved he is pointing to a special relationship not the same relationship everyone has.

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 ¶ Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

There are many verses that isolate those Jesus loved from the rest of mankind.

John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
John 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
John 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,)and did cast himself into the sea.

Even before the birth of Jesus

2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

We cannot become saved unless God chooses to love us.

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

If we are not saved the love of the father is not in us.

1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

When we become saved we are changed and are seen as righteous in the eyes of God. He no longer sees or remembers our sins.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

He loves those that follow after righteousness, those that have been saved.

Pr 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Do you think He could cast someone into the lake of fire for all eternity that He loved?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

One last verse to support the fact that God does not love every single person.
Many people are never chastised by God. If someone has been chastised they have been corrected, to change a behavior. Many have never been chastised, yet the bible says God chastises everyone He loves.

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

He loves his children.

To B Continued...

You don’t quite understand my belief.
A Hyper-Calvinist would claim that man has no freewill, that God makes men sin. It is a common error.
I am not a Hyper-Calvinist.
You would want to claim most, if not all, that happens on earth is determined by mans freewill. For instance we vote to choose our rulers. The bible says differently.

Ro 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Ro 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God is in control, but within that control we also make choices.
Because of Adams sin man has been separated from God. There is a veil between man and God. We are spiritually dead. And we die physically.
When the Lord returns our physical body is resurrected into a glorious body that can never die.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
This is different than what Adam had.
Adam and Eve did not have eternal life, they would not die as long as they did not sin. It was conditional. We are given eternal life, no conditions.
When we become saved our spiritual body is resurrected. We are given a new soul. That is what it means to be born again. It is a change in our heart - soul.
It is done by God, we can contribute nothing. Just as we could contribute nothing to our first birth.
While we are spiritually dead we will sin, we have no choice it is our nature. God doesn’t cause us to sin, but we will.
Because of the sins of our first parents, A&E, we will sin. But we choose our sins. And the bible does indicate that God restrains sin, if he didn’t we would destroy ourselves.
Often it reaches a point where God gives us up to our sins.

Ro 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

When we become saved and God has resurrected our spiritual body then it becomes our desire to obey Him.
Because our physical body is still unsaved we will still sin. And so a war takes place, Paul talked of this.

Romans 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The bible gives every indication that this change is 100% Gods work.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Because He has given us a new heart it becomes our desire to obey and follow His commandments.

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The heart change must come first.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

One of Gods commandments is to believe, after He has changed our heart we keep the commandment to believe:

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Believing is a result of the change.
Many men have an intellectual understanding of who Jesus is, and they think this is what it means to believe.
They know there is a hell, they know they deserve hell, they don’t want to go to hell, so they want to ‘join up’. But their hearts were never changed. They even feel they are working for Christ, you see all sorts of people claiming different truths but only one is true. As an example, Methodists have Lesbian Ministers, other churches teach only married and not divorced men can lead the congregation. Radically different, both the Lesbian and the married pastor will claim to be working for Christ, to be saving souls by casting the devil out of people.

Mt 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People making a decision for Christ, only to find they were lost. He never knew them.
Quickly Matthew 25:41:

Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Angels comes from the word ‘aggelos’. It does not necessarily mean heavenly angels. It can also refer to men.

Mt 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger <aggelos> before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Lu 7:24  And when the messengers <aggelos> of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

It can mean a supernatural creature or it can mean a human.
This is a time to compare scripture with scripture.
Some like to claim no one goes to hell forever, but the bible says they do.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be  punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is judgment on man. To be separated forever from God. It is outer darkness because God will not be there and God is light.

Mt 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you continue with Matthew 25 you will see he is talking about men on earth not heavenly angels.

Mt 25:40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mt 25:43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mt 25:44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mt 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mt 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

More???...Yep

Yes the command goes out to seek him, but no one will seek him. It is our obligation but we will not be able to do it.

We did this verse earlier.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God often gives us commands to do and we have an obligation to do them but we won’t.
If you seek him with all your heart and all your soul you will find him, but we can’t devote 100% of ourselves to seeking God.

De 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

We tend to seek him for the wrong reasons.

John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

The commandment to seek him is very similar to the commandment to circumcise your heart.

De 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We are commanded to do that, but we can’t so God does it.

De 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is very similar to Gods commandment to believe.

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We are not able to have saving belief so God does it.

Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Like the circumcision of the heart it is Gods work.
In fact it is BECAUSE of Gods circumcision that we are able to believe.

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.



Perhaps one reason is so we can realize just how desperate our situation is.
When we realize we can’t repent 100% it puts us on our knees.
There is another thing that I have begun to consider, God is creating something special. This is the studio, where his creation unfolds. Our lives and our trials help to mold us into the vessel he needs.

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

We are his workmanship. He is creating a vessel to hold the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:16 ¶  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 

The wages of sin is death, the death God has in mind is the second death mentioned in Revelation.

Re 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
That first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul. Remember earlier? We are spiritually dead.
Wages implies payment, Jesus had to make the payment for sin. There was definitely a need for Jesus to suffer, or the payment would never have been made.


This is actually the argument for election.
If salvation is based on what we do, choosing Him, then God is not righteous.
A Mayan could legitimately say, “I would have chosen you but I never heard of you.”
A legitimate defense.
Would it be righteous for God to say, “true it was impossible for you to have chosen me but you can’t be saved unless you do therefore you go to hell. You had to do the impossible to become saved.”
To work around this unfairness in their gospel many freewill teachers will claim we are born with the necessary knowledge.
If that claim was true then indeed there would be an even distribution of Christians.
Hearing the word is necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God will get the word to everyone He intends to save, that is our job, to get the word out.

Mr 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

God then uses the word to save those He has chosen.

1 Thessalonians 2:13  For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The word works in us not by our will but by Gods will.

James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God selectively chooses who he is going to save, there is no reason why this would be an even distribution.


Still going...

There are not hundreds of verses, there are a few.
The bible is not the English translations. The word of God is found in the original texts in the original languages.
In the original language the word whosoever is the Greek word <PAS>.
If you compare scripture with scripture you will find that the word PAS rarely refers to every single person - an inclusive term.
Usually it is referring to a limited group of people - an exclusive term.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <PAS> Jerusalem with him.

PAS Jerusalem? Every person in Jerusalem was troubled?

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all <PAS> manner of sickness and all <PAS> manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 8:16  When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all <PAS> that were sick:

Did he heal ‘all’ sickness and ‘all’ disease or just certain people.

Matthew 21:22  And all things <PAS>, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive

Everything you pray for?

Mark 1:37  And when they had found him, they said unto him, All <PAS> men seek for thee.
 
Every single person was seeking him?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <PAS> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <PAS> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Do you really think that John baptized over 2,000,000 people including the pharisees?

John 6:37  All <PAS> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Is that ‘all’ that God gives to Jesus will come to him OR is that ‘all’ that choose Jesus will come to him.
There is a contradiction between your understanding and this verse.
This is why it is so important to compare scripture with scripture.
No one can come to God unless He draws them first. Everyone He draws will come. If God could fail then He would be an impotent God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

We are taught of God, it is His work.


Again compare scripture with scripture.

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Did he deceive the whole world or just the wicked?

Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Was the whole world taxed?

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the whole world go after him?
The world refers to the unsaved condition of man.

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

He loved his own that were in the world.

John 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Most important Jesus separates his people from the world.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

He was sent to the whole world and we have an obligation to accept him, but we will not accept him in truth unless we are one of those God has given to Jesus.
All we can do is get on our knees and pray that we might be one of those.

One more section......I think

He doesn’t choose us because we are somehow better than someone else, it is not because He respects what kind of person we are.
Actually freewill is a gospel in which the superior people have salvation.
They are smarter or more humble than the unsaved.
Two brothers raised in the same environment, one becomes saved the other does not, WHY?
Obviously the one that becomes saved is taking the wise path the unsaved is foolish, what separates the two?
The bible says it is because God CHOSE one over the other.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I need to head out of town for a few days so I am going to have to wrap this up.
Much of your understanding of election is Hyper-Calvinist, that is common. I hope I may have given you some understanding as to where I differ from that idea.
The bible does not contradict there are a lot of contradictions with what you say and what the bible says.

John 6 says it very clearly.
No one can come to Jesus unless God draws them.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone that God gives to Jesus will come to him.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus says clearly that He did not come for everyone. He hides the truth from some.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Much of the bible is parabolic. Israel represented the believers. They were elect because the believers are elect.
This is a picture of the salvation process.
The Sabbath is also a picture of the salvation process. That is why it was a shadow pointing to Christ. That is why NO work could be done on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath breaker felt he needed to do something, he couldn’t trust God entirely. So he picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath, God said stone him to death.

Numbers 15:32  And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33  And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Numbers 15:35  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

The freewill gospel like the sabbath breaker doesn’t trust entirely on God, there is a feeling we must do something.
The great danger with the freewill gospel is people trusting in their work of believing, and never becoming truly broken before God.
My ex-wife is one of those people.
She has accepted Jesus as her savior but not as her Lord.
She rejects his laws and commandments claiming, “I have accepted Jesus as my savior, so these sins I do are covered.”
She is living with her boyfriend, after partying and sleeping with him for several years. But it is OK because she made a freewill decision.
The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

None of us have the right to complain.

Romans 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It only contradicts SALVATION by choice.
I wanted the Lord very much in my life, I got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me. That does not guarantee salvation.
When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart. God had to give me a heart that could believe first. He had to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh.
We can only truly love him if our heart has been changed. That is not forcing, that is a rescue.
Circumcision - open heart surgery performed by the master surgeon.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that circumcision requires the shedding of blood, circumcision of the heart requires the shedding of Christ’s blood.  

I have to go drive about 500 miles before noon tomorrow, it’s 3:30 right now.
Gotta Go,
John

Hello John.

 It's pointless going back and forth like this. I will point out a couple of more "problems" (if you will) and call it a day my friend.

My quote...
Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

 Your response...

 Perhaps you should read "a little more carefully" my friend...


 Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.  


Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!  

 Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  


 Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.  

My quote...
You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."  


Your response...

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

My quote...
 Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose Jesus, and He also chose you)...
 

Your response...

 First of all - I'm not talking about choosing salvation. I freely chose Jesus - He gave me my salvation.

 When did God save you John? If God chose you from before the beginning, then you were always saved...right? So why did the change begin? When did the change begin? I'll bet it began after you "got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me." That's when you freely accepted Jesus into your life John - and that's when your life began to change. After that, your salvation was guaranteed.

 Why would you even have to ask Him for mercy, if you were already saved John? It doesn't make sense.

Look what you're saying John...

 "When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart."

 On one hand, you say we can't accept God - that God has pre-selected us. Then, you say He changed you, so you could accept Him.

 "God had to give me a heart that could believe first."

 Exactly! That could believe That's very different than saying " a heart that would believe" In any case, why do we have to believe at all John? If God truly has pre-selected us - then we have no choice or need to believe in Him at all do we? That smacks of "works" it denotes "choice" John. You can't escape it my friend. The very word "believe" denotes choice. We either believe, or we do not believe.

Your quote...
 
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

 Finally John, I ask you to consider these verses...

 Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  

 Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.  

 Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

 Here in Jhn 1:11- "His own" - Those who He "pre-selected" denied Him John. How does that line up with your belief? It doesn't fit does it? unless you make it fit.

Please consider this verse John...Jhn 1:12 How does this fit into your belief? It is directly opposed to it John. There is a very good reason for that my brother. The verse is clear John... "But as many as received him" This is also directly opposed to "pre-destination" John. It does not say "as many as He selected" John.

 to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

 John, this verse is not ambiguous in the least. "even to them that believe on His name" The word "even" in this verse makes a clear, unmistakable distinction from those who "received him" and "them that believe on His name" "to them gave he power to become the sons of God"

 In these verses God makes a point to show - in this instance at least - the ones who were pre-selected denied Him. How can that be John?
 God doesn't stop there John. God makes it unmistakably plain and absolutely clear that His salvation is offered to all those who receive Him, and even to those who merely believe on His name

 You can't get around these verses John. Not unless you have hardened yourself to believe only what you want to believe, and not what the Bible says.

 I am not trying to insult you here John - I love you as a Christian brother, and that is God's will. However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. Who is to truly know who is one of God's and who only believes he is John? What makes you so sure you are "pre-selected" Is is simply the fact that you "believe" you are John?

 What kind of "loving God" would pre-condemn His own creation? Just to hate for His own pleasure!!!???

 God's salvation is available to ALL of us John, not an elite, select few.

 I'm sorry my brother, but there is no easy, nice way of saying it - and it is of the utmost importance that it be stated...

 To all my brothers and sisters who are afraid that they might be one of the condemned because of this false doctrine - Please listen to God...

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

 The blessed hope of His salvation is available to ALL OF US.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.  

Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 Either Jesus is wrong or your doctrine is false John.

 This is not an attack on you personally John. However - I am sorry, but that is an exclusive teaching which leaves multitudes without any hope of salvation. It is destructive and false my brother.

 Bronzesnake.

Left Coast, I notice you are using "Gods elect" many times. You do know that, Gods elect is Israel, The Jewish people.

You are not correct in your meaning of PAS Left Coast.

(1) PAS is _normally_ predicative; very rarely would one find hH PASA GRAFH, but if one did, that would mean "the whole of scripture."
The predicative use of _pas_ (without the article) according to the grammars is normally translated "every" or in this case "every inspired Scripture"


(2) PASA GRAFH might be translated "every scripture" or "all
scripture"--but either version would really mean simply every _single_scripture and thus "all" texts that may be termed "scripture."

This is very helpful, What do you think of Turner's notion of PAS meaning not every individual, like _hekastos_, but any you please." Turner seems to be limiting the idea to some group of texts that may be called scripture (the ones under consideration), rather than all possible scriptures viewed individually. Perhaps this doesn't make a hugh difference in this passage, but to me the former seems to treat the QEOPNEUSTOS as a tacit assumption, while the latter makes it a principle.

All who looked forward to Christ under the first covenant and all those in Christ under the second. This includes present day Israel. They are not the elect without faith in Christ as the son of God. There will be a remnant grafted back in, but they must believe.

Ollie

HI,
    I'm going to drop in here and give my 2 cents worth. Back to the original quietion....why do we believe in God. I guess I need to ask some questions first.

Why do you ask?
Are you concerned about dieing?
Do you believe the sun will come up in the morning?
Do you believe your car is going to start when you turn the key?
Do you believe you bus is going to arrive on time, there is so many questions that can be asked of the way you have faith in something other than God.
I am curious so how do you know? Obviously the frist 2 questions are because you think we are all fools, and no you aren't concerned about dieing. I am wondering how do people who have no idea, or who could care less get up in the moring. What is the meaning of your life?

I don't have a devinely inspired answer to share with you, I just know that with out God I am doomed, if I die and there is no God then my faith gains me nothing I will rot in the ground none the worse off, but if I die and there is a God I have an eternal home in his Kingdom or in hell. Does that sound like I'm sitting in the middle of the road? I know it does, but there is something inside of me that has that HOPE, once you get that hope then a measure of faith begins to filter in, kinda like when you hope your car starts in cold weather, and when it does several times in a row you learn to relax and trust that it will do it time and time again. My Faith has been tested, and no its not been easy, I question, I back slide, I cry and have my fits, but I know that I am better off for believing in God than not. What would this world be for other wise? A fluke, an accident of nature? Everything that makes us so unique in the animal world just accidental fell together and boom.....you have a man......no there is a divine creator.  
    My life has not be all grand and glories, I don't come from money, or a loving family, as a matter of fact I don't even come from a Christian home. As a child I seen and lived with about ever sin imaginable thru my parents or step parents. I could have gotten full of pride, hate, revenenge and I did for a while, but that is not the way to raise children so I begin to need something more than a "this world sucks" addittude because I wanted better for my children, I didn't want the divorce step parents parade and all that sometimes comes along with that life. So I made a choice to believe becuase it was better than believing in nothing, I need meaning in my life a purpose, I wasn't just another idiot on the planet taken up space. And then faith followed.
    Blessing to you, I pray you find what your looking for. Or I've said something that makes sense, OH and by the way the world does suck and I am very greatful for it cause if it didn't we would all fall off....... :P
Musicllover

Heidi said clearly that Jesus Christ was her Lord and Savior, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi believed Jesus Christ was the SON of God, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi did not understand that Jesus was also God, a difficult thing to understand for some.
Being your own son, sounds like a bad Jeff Foxworthy joke.
We can not know who is and who is not saved, only God can know the heart.
We can not even know our own hearts, the bible says our hearts deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

WOOOPS!!!!!!!!

Bronzesnake,

I am very sorry in my rush to get out of town I said something very wrong.


I certainly didn’t word that right! As it shows in the verses I presented He saves who He chooses because it serves His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

He has no pleasure in the wicked, therefore He has no pleasure in hating men. And the bible says clearly that He hates the wicked.

Psalms 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Yes, God does hate iniquity.
The bible could have said ‘thou hatest all iniquity’, and ‘the LORD will abhor deceit’.
That is not what Psalm 5 says, it says He hates sinners.
A far cry from he loves the sinner but he hates the sin.

This is where your freewill decision comes in.

You can accept what the bible says as the word of God, or you can reject these verses.
The verses are clear.
He hates the wicked.
God HATED Esau.

Malachi 1:2  I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How long are you going to trust in the wisdom of men instead of the word of God?

None of these verses say that the rich cannot be saved.
None of these verses say the young ruler was not saved.
None of these verses say the rich young ruler turned his back on salvation.
People don’t turn away from Christ Grieving.
The turn away because of pride, pride won’t allow them to grieve.
I stand by my explanation. It is difficult to give up what we love, but not impossible.
Contrary to what you may think there will be many wealthy people that turn to the Lord.
Solomon being a rich young ruler, that the Lord loved.

2 Samuel 12:24  And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.


I don’t know when I became saved. Some people may know immediately, I did not. I do know it did not happen the first time I went to my knees, or the second or the third.
I had to spend a lot of time on my knees.
There was a time when I thought we are saved when God begins to draw us, because God cannot fail, salvation was guaranteed. That is not what I believe today.
It is true that John Bunyan taught we are saved from the very beginning. He was a great Christian, that is not something I agree with him on.
Guaranteeing salvation and being saved are different. A doctor can guarantee to save your leg before he operates but the leg is saved after the operation is finished.
We are saved when we are Born Again.
It is an excellent term. What can any person contribute to their birth?
Can you get your parents together?
Can you decide the moment of your birth?
When we are born again we become an entirely different kind of a creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is the point of salvation, it is the result of God changing our heart. It is a rescue type of salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


2 Long
so
2 Parts

No it denotes a change. It was not a choice the heart is changed the change brings belief.
There are different kinds of belief. Intellectually all sorts of people believe in God. So we have various religious practices all over the world, even the most primitive tribes understand there is a God.
Even the devils believed.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?

His own were the Jews.

The definition of receive is found in John 3:27.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Those that received Him were given that ability from heaven.
This is very similar to:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It sounds like our work. But the bible explains it is Gods work.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is difficult to search out the bible for truth.
One thing I enjoy about you is you do look to the bible, now you have to learn to look a little deeper. The bible is not always as clear as it seems.
The hardest thing to do is to resist the urge to jump to conclusions.

It is not a good idea to put so much faith on a word that is not in the scripture.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The reason you put the word ‘even’ in brackets is because it was not a word found in the original text.
One of the reasons I like the KJV is because the KJV italicizes those words that the translators added to the translation. I often read verses by skipping over the italicized words. So this would read:

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name:

He gave them the power to become the sons of God.
Quite the opposite, YOUR DOCTRINE leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. With mine there is ALWAYS hope.
With yours there is no hope for infants or the mentally ill. How can a baby make a freewill decision?
The bible makes it clear we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born. We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
You would have to tell Mrs. Doe:
I am sorry Mrs. Doe, your son was drunk, and passing a joint to someone when his car went off the road. He has sustained a permanent brain injury. He will never know who you are or who he is, he certainly can’t know who Jesus is. Your son can make no choices, so he is going to burn in hell.
Where is the hope in your doctrine?
My doctrine gives hope to all, because the brain is not involved. It is all Gods work. You add mans work.
You can accept the word of God or reject the word of God, your decision.
I believe I have addressed all of your verses, I have explained them WITH scripture.
Whosoever is from the Greek word ‘pas’. It is also found:

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the definition of whosoever. Translate it this way:

Whosoever that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You have to deal with these verses.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
No one will come to Jesus unless God first draws them, whosoever He gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Why do you reject the scripture?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

He chooses us and causes us to approach Him. We don’t choose him.
If you really want faith, trust entirely on God.
You trust in your work of believing. Like the sabbath breaker, you can’t really trust in God, WHY?
As for me I will trust in the Lord. Praise be to God that I can.

John.

The Jewish people were a picture of those that God saves. As individuals few Jews were saved.
The Lord uses the terms Jew, Israel, and even Church to refer to the saved and to those things on earth that relate to those terms.

Romans 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So did John the Baptist Baptize 2,000,000 people including Sadducees and Pharisees?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

L.C. quote...



 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

 You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%

 Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

 You are stubornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

 I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

Bronzesnake....THE END!

YOU LIE!
I have never called Jesus a liar.
How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.

You cannot answer because you have no answer.

Yours is the doctrine that offers these people no hope.
My doctrine offers salvation to all including those that you would leave out.

How can you say when you have given NO evidence or statement to support such a claim.
 
The gospel of freewill is Satans Trap, he wants you to trust in your work instead of trusting in God.
You can boast you are smarter than those that don't choose Christ.
Or you can boast you are more humble or in some other way superior to those that don't choose Christ.
Yours is a works gospel. Why would one person chose Him and their very own brother not? What separates the two?

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith is a gift from God.

That would be God showing favor ---- ELECTION.
It maybe these things will always be hidden from you, if so then you are not one of his.
I pray he does open your eyes, that He does show you favor.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Your God would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. That is not the God of the bible.
How can you show me truth when you can't answer so many verses I have given you.
I have answered your verses, including whosoever, but you cannot answer most of what I have presented to you.
You want to think man can seek God.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You cannot answer the verses that say God Hates the wicked.
You cannot answer the verses that say it is God that chooses.

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

When did I call Jesus a liar?
You don't need to slander me.

All sorts of people believe that they believe in Him 100% Including me.
Unfortunately most are wrong.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You have chosen a salvation plan of works, according to the bible that is not the gospel.

God's grace and love is why I believe in God. A few months ago, my life as I knew it was tore to shreds. If it had not been for God, I would probably be a nervous wreck right now. Even though things aren't back the way that they were, I have peace in my heart, mind, and life. Through Him, I have finally found true joy in my life. He has showed me how to depend on things not seen but to depend on Him to restore my life. Each day that passes, I draw closer to God and the closer that I draw to Him, the more that my everyday life is getting put back together.

God Bless You,
Christina :D

I did grow up going to church and believed in God simply because I was told too. I didn't really feel it though until recently. For me, it was realizing how things in my life always work out when I pray or when someone else does. Some things that seemed impossible became possible with a simple prayer and a renewed faith. I couldn't just call it chance. When you're prayers come true or you receive little signs, you can't help but believe. You can call it chance if you want, but prayer after prayer coming true to me means their is someone watching over me. Good luck to you and I hope you find the answer you are searching for.

Bronzesnake quote...
"No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%"

 I didn't "slander" you John - once again, you have it wrong.

 However, you did call me a liar John...

 

 This is easy John. When a person asks Jesus to enter his/her life and become their Lord and saviour - when they confess their sins to Jesus - they become cleaned, and saved. Unless a person does that, they are doomed. That's why your doctrine is so dangerous John. people who ascribe to that foolishness would not have a need to ask Jesus into their lives, as they would either already be "pre-selected' or doomed regardless of what they may or may not desire. satan must laugh maniacally with joy when he hears such a doctrine.

 In your mind John, God has pre-selected an elite few for eternal salvation. All those poor souls who have honestly, and earnestly prayed for Jesus to enter their lives are in for a huge shock when they discover Jesus lied when He said...

  Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.  

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:  

Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.  

Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.  

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 13:26 Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 John - If God has pre-selected those who He will save, then why is the gospel being preached throughout the world?

 How do you personally know that you are one of the "pre-selected john? Is is just because you "feel" saved? or did God actually speak to you/ Charlie Manson claimed that Jesus spoke to him, is he saved? how about all the other tyrants throughout history who "talked" to God? Are they also included in the "pre-selected" John, maybe you aren't one of the chosen after all, perhaps God is laughing at you right now, knowing you are just a piece of human kindling, and that you are merely deluded into believing you are one of the chosen. In you doctrine, there must be millions who are in that very predicament.

 No, John, That is ludicrous. Jesus said it many, many times..."WHOSOEVER" means "WHOSOEVER" no matter how you try to misconstrue the word in order to make your doctrine work.

ps. Thanks for sticking around my brother. We can disagree and remain civil, and that's how Jesus would want it.

Bronzesnake.

Bronzesnake
You Lie because you have made a false accusation.
If I have called Jesus a liar, BE SPECIFIC. When and where?
If it is your claim that because I don’t agree with YOUR interpretation of the Greek word “pas”, which is interpreted as; whosoever, all, etc, then it is not that I am claiming Jesus is a liar, I am claiming that you have not yet come to understand the full meaning of this word.
Is Charles Spurgeon also calling Jesus a liar?
Charles Spurgeon, on the word pas, from his sermon, Particular Redemption.  http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

Your understanding reminds me very much of Heidi and her insistence that Jesus was not God.
She isolated a several verses of scripture and claimed Jesus was the son of God not God himself.

Mark 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

If all we had were these types of verses then she would have a legitimate claim that Jesus was not God.
In like manner you also point to certain verses that seem to claim that we can seek him and believe on him by our freewill.


Isolating this verse you claim that we have the capability to seek Him.
We pointed out to Heidi verses that show that Jesus was God.

Colossians 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I pointed out to you verses that say no one can seek God.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Just as Heidi could not accept verses that contradicted her doctrine you cannot accept the verses that contradict your doctrine.
Heidi would repeat over and over again “Son of God”, you repeat over and over again “Whosoever”.
As Spurgeon has said and as I have said the word ‘whosoever’ <pas> is not such a concrete term that you can hang your whole eternity on one understanding, to do so is to reject a great portion of the scripture.
Jesus said Whosoever the Father GIVETH me Shall come to me.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

When you turn to verses such as:
You think that believing is within mans capability.
This is partially true. Man can have a type of belief, but that belief does not save.

John 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The bible speaks also of many that not only believed but also worked for the Lord, or so they believed. They were preaching Christ.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you think about this for a moment you can see that there are all sorts of people that Believe on Jesus that cannot possibly be saved.
The Pope believes on Jesus, Benny Hinn believes on Jesus, Methodists believe, Pentecostals believe, Freewill Baptists believe, Reformed Baptists believe, Mormons believe, ETC.
It is impossible that all of these people have it right.
Saving belief can only come from God.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That is from the mouth of Jesus -- are you calling Jesus a liar?

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES are those that God has given the ability to believe. Just as Heidi could not accept John chapter 1, you cannot accept John chapter 6. WHY?
The “whosoever” <pas> that believe are the “all” <pas> that God has given to Jesus.
You have made many accusations not based on my testimony, but based on your assumptions.
I do not believe in dreams or visions.
All of these things ceased when the bible was finished and sealed.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

By rejecting John 6, Philippians 1:29, Romans 3:10-12, Psalms 65:4, etc, you are taking away the words of the book of Gods prophecy.
My salvation is based by the fact that I have been changed.
There were some sins I wanted out of my life, but for the most part I enjoyed my life of sin. I had a very good time.
I have no joy in sin any more.
The bible tells us to examine ourselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God changes us.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God gives us a means of testing our salvation.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

When we look at these verses in light of Romans 7 we can see that because we still have a body of flesh we will still sin, but there is no pleasure in sin.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I can cover this more if you need it.
How do you know you are saved?
How do you know you are not one of those spoken of in Matthew 7:22-23?
I asked you a question.
You didn’t answer the question.
What you are saying is that there is no hope for those who have lost their intellect through injury, or illness after they have lived a life of sin, they are doomed even though they still live, by your doctrine.
Heidi did not answer the verses we gave her, you do not answer the verses I give you. Why?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

L.C.

 My friend. I can accept that we have differences of opinion when it comes to doctrine.  I can not, and will not however, allow you to personally call me a liar ever again John. That my friend is your final warning. When I stated the following in relation to satan and his fallen crew, and why they are so hateful and and angry with us, I did not personally call you a liar did I John? It was a rhetorical statement construed in order to simplify the meaning of my post. I see now that you don't have very good grammatical skill in English, perhaps you are from another country, and if so, I  my friend....

 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%

Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

You are stubbornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

 John, my brother. To be quite honest - as I always am. You appear to be obsessive in your posts. You and I have engaged in three different topics. Two, I flat out disagree with you on. The third...Which was the one about people or "tribes" who hadn't heard the Bible. or come to know Jesus. The premise was whether they got to heaven or not. At first, I believed they did. The premise being our God as a merciful, Just, God. However - upon further study of the Bible, I came to discover that Jesus enters each of our lives through many different approaches, and that each man is judged on how he.she responds to His Will.
 I openly admitted my mistake, and even added several Bible verses which corresponded to the topic.

 Our second debate was whether God condemns the Mentally Ill, or babies.
You believe He does, I do not believe it. We went back and fourth on that one also my friend. Othere's also tried to get throught to you. However - you stubbornly refused to budge.

 Out latest debate has become somewhat of a novel. Your positiopn is that God has preselected all those who will be saved, and the rest, or, the unsaved, Will be put to death, and sent to a burning lake of fire called Hell, (to paraphrase you)for "God's own pleasure" You - of course have found yourself to be worthy and count yourself as one of the elite chosen. Even though Jesus Christ Himself syas many times that His Sacrafice, and subsequent salvation is open to "Whosoever" bel;ieves in Him, or even "calls on His name" You stubornly, and incorrectly try to convince the readers on this forum, and God knows how many other forums you pervert the meaning of that term in a vain attempt to keep your membership exclusive.

 Listen here, and for the very last time my friend. The wonderful, Good news is that the gift of eternal salvation is open for everyone, and anyone who would believe in Him. Jesus loves us all John, He wants so desperately for each and everyone of us to accept Him as their lord and saviour.

Amos 9:11-12 "‘After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, in order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old."

Psalm 19:4 "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Isaiah 60:3 "And nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising."

Isaiah 65:1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ a nation which did not call on My name."

Jeremiah 4:2 "And you will swear, 'As Yehovah lives,' in truth, in justice, and in righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves in Him, and in Him they will glory."

Matthew 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;; I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall proclaim justice to the gentiles.

JOHN watch carefully my brother.In Matthew 12:8 God the Father speaks of His servant, His beloved in whom He is well pleased...We can agree that this is Jesus right? What does God the Father say next John?...." I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall proclaim justice to the gentiles " JOHN, God's CHOSEN people were the Jews!

Acts 10:15 "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy

Acts 10:43-44 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Romans 3:29-30 "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Romans 9:24-25 "Even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As he says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ and her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’"

Ephesians 3:6 "To be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

1 Timothy 2:7 "And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

 God Sent Apostles
 To The Gentiles

Matthew 10:18 and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have placed you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the end of the earth.’"

Acts 14:27 And when they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles

 Ephesians 2:11-13 Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

 My brother John. You no longer have to follow after the false teachings of misguided men who ignore what Jesus tells us. Jesus tells us allare welcome, whosoever believes on him, or calls on His Name, sahll be saved.

 His sacrafice and shed blood on the cross of Golgotha was open to every single child He created...All of us. Black, White, Yellow, Red, and everything in between. He loves us all John. He wants us all John. Anyone who calls on His name will be saved. Whosoever believes in Him, shall be saved. There is only one inforgivable sin, and that is to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 John. Christ's gift is not an exclusive, elite, gentlemen's club. Christ's gift of eternal salvation is open and available to anyone who believes in Him...

 

 Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?  


 Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This will be in two posts I don’t have the time to edit it enough.
I am leaving for 2-3 weeks it should give you enough time to actually respond for a change. That is if you are willing.

Bronzesnake

Lets be real here.
Have you actually read my posts, and yours?
When you accuse someone of something that is not true you are bearing false witness.
I have not called Jesus a liar. I have made it very clear I believe in Jesus 100%.
I do not agree with your definition of whosoever, I am in good company.
I ask you again, do you have the guts to answer?
Is Charles Spurgeon calling Jesus a liar?
You have also born false witness again by bringing up an error I made and corrected.
You did not paraphrase me at all.
I made it very clear that because I was in a hurry to leave town, as I am today, I made a mistake in what I said concerning “God’s own pleasure”.
He has no pleasure in the wicked, that he would rescue anyone from judgment He does for His pleasure. I did not say he sends people to the lake of fire for his pleasure.
WHY do you bear false witness?
Are you doing it on purpose, or are you that incapable of understanding simple English?  ::)
Perhaps you don’t actually read the posts, that would explain why you have not been able to answer the points I have made.
I have shown clearly that it is your doctrine that leaves people without hope of salvation, you have not answered my posts on this.
Instead you continue to repeat the same ridiculous accusation.

Part 2

I repeat, Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
My doctrine gives hope to ALL.
No one can know who God will or will not save, but with my doctrine salvation is available to everyone from the tiniest infant to the oldest of the old on their death bed.
It doesn’t matter how developed their mind is, it doesn’t matter if they now live their life in a vegetive state.
I have answered your accusation, your accusation is false.
You don’t seem to be able to answer my question, WHY?
Another question I asked that you have never answered:
WHY does one become saved and the other does not? Is the one that becomes saved smarter, wiser, more humble? What separates the two?
Another point you have not addressed.
You claim we can seek for God.
The bible says we cannot. Which is true? I am going to go with the bible.

As usual you are silent concerning Romans 3. WHY can’t you answer?
You think that salvation is available to every person on the planet, and yet you also claim that it is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus, WHICH IS IT?
WHY would God send strong delusion?
WHY wouldn’t Jesus pray for the whole world?
Not only have you not answered these questions but John 17:9 ties in with John 6:37, another verse you have not answered.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR?
All that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him. Can’t you see that it is Gods action.
Jesus prays for them, He DOESN’T pray for the world.
WHY won’t you answer these verses?
Can’t you see that they contradict your doctrine?
WHY do you avoid answering the verses and questions I have given you?
You repeat yourself without addressing the errors in your teaching, WHY are you deaf?
WHY can’t you see:

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

God causes us to approach Him.
God chooses us.
To believe unto salvation is 100% Gods work. Look at my signature verses.

Oklahoma Howdy to Left Coast and Bronzesnake,

I don't have much doubt that both of you are brothers in Christ. I think that the disagreement and exchange of information could be beneficial if it could be cooled down some. It is more than certain that neither of you are going to change your opinions, and my opinion is set in concrete.

Left Coast, I have no problem in calling you brother, but I disagree with you completely on your doctrine. It is set in concrete that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL - EVERYONE who will believe, confess, and ask forgiveness to the LORD AND SAVIOUR for ALL who call on HIS Name as LORD over their lives. John, I know it makes you angry that I won't debate this with you, but I don't feel led to debate matters like this. I would simply tell you it is completely false doctrine that attempts to define and limit the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for all. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can hear the Word of God, believe in the GOOD NEWS OF THE CROSS, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. There really isn't any mystery at all about predestination. Everything was and is an open book to Almighty God before the foundation of the world. HE knew the number of hairs on your head and whether or not you would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour before the foundation of the world. Foreknowledge by ALMIGHTY GOD does not suggest that you were somehow commanded or created as a robot that would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

If Almighty God wished to make such commands, HE certainly could, but he didn't. It is more than obvious that HE wishes all men to be saved, so why not simply COMMAND it or breathe it SO and DONE. There would be no need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the CROSS, and there would be no need for pastors and sharing the GOOD NEWS. The simplicity is overwhelming - man was given the choice of good and evil and to believe or disbelieve. Man chose evil and disobedience with Adam. Man has been given choices to make from the very start, and ALL men are in desperate need of a Lord and Saviour. ALL men were offered a Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ on the CROSS. Men may accept or reject, just like Adam.

In conclusion, you are confusing the foreknowledge of God in ALL THINGS with a doctrine that says many men can't ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and ask HIM to be the LORD over their lives. There no doctrine with any Biblical basis that says that only some men can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and all others will be rejected. Again, it is simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Any man can hear the WORD - The GOOD NEWS - and believe it and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Anything less makes the CROSS in vain and makes the clear statement that there is no GOOD NEWS.

John, post all you wish, but I won't debate it with you. I have studied in detail everything you believe about predestination. I will simply say that you are a very confused brother in Christ. I love you brother, but the GOOD NEWS is for everyone. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks BEP.

"what makes you beleive?"

God's word called to my heart upon hearing and reading it.

 You are of course right my friend...it's getting foolish on both of our parts. Message received Captain, I am disengageing ...now!

Bronzesnake.

Brother, maybe I stated that wrong. I was primarily thinking about what I felt lead to do. It's a topic certainly worthy of discussion, but one I feel might lead me to anger. That's something I have been praying about for over a year, and the answer appears to be resisting temptation to become involved in the first place. You don't appear to have that problem, but it appears that Left Coast does.

So, I'm thinking that a safe topic for Left Coast and I to discuss might be bird watching.   :D  It might still be a great discussion between you and John if he could cool things off 50 degrees below boiling.   :D  I think that most of us have buttons someone can push for high temperature settings. I'm trying to either break or short out my high temperature button. OR, maybe God will reduce my wattage some more.

Love In Christ,
Tom

No my friend - you nailed it on the head. I was beginning to let it slip away with the "don't call me a liar!" stuff :D Sometimes we feel so convicted, or "correct" that we begin to lose sight of the mission, and it's parameters. So - no, you did not state anything wrong.

 The real issue is that perhaps the Bible should be preached, and not debated. That's why it's so important to take God literally, except when He is using obvious figurative visions to describe future events as seen through the eyes of His servants at the time of their lives.

 You obviously you take Jesus at face value when He tells us His free gift of forgiveness and eternal salvation as paid by His own, willing, sacrifice, is open to all of us, and not only to an elect, select, chosen few.

Thanks my brother!

Bronzesnake

Brother, I take the offer of salvation as one of the only real reasons for hope in this evil world. When I read this post, I was trying to imagine how I might witness to the lost if I thought only a small  number would be accepted. Recognizing one is a sinner and in desperate need of a Saviour is a HUGE and emotional step for a lost person. I could only imagine a HUGE and BOOMING voice from Heaven saying, "You are not on the list - I won't hear your prayer for forgiveness and Christ rejects you." It's a good thing that will NEVER happen. The worst sinner on earth can hear THE WORD, the GOOD NEWS, believe, pray for forgiveness, and ask Jesus Christ to come into their heart as their Lord and Saviour forever.

Brother, you and I know that the GOOD NEWS is for every man, woman, and child on earth, even the worst and most evil. I can't imagine how horrible it would be for some to be born without any hope and doomed to darkness without a hope or prayer of any kind. How could anyone witness and tell them at the same time they would probably be rejected by Christ?

Well, I know that sincere prayers for forgiveness and requests for Jesus to be Lord over their life will NOT be rejected. Brother, I don't have any problem witnessing. The GOOD NEWS and THE CROSS are for everyone. Some will reject it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't offered.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Tom,
My heart is not set in concrete, I am able to change my opinions. Fortunately I have done so several times in my life.
But I will not change my opinion just because someone says, “I am right and you are wrong.”
So far neither you nor Bronze have given solid inarguable evidence that your doctrine is truth.
No one has responded, with substance, to the arguments I have given.

Tom I know you respect C.H. Spurgeon, if you didn’t you wouldn’t post his Morning and Evening Devotions as you have on a regular basis. http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3561;start=0

If you will not accept my testimony that Christ only paid for the sins of those that he came to save, would you consider looking at what Spurgeon preached on this?
Please for the sake of truth, look at Spurgeon’s Sermon on this very topic.
You say your opinion is set in concrete, so were the Pharisees. If you want to know Gods truth, you must be willing to recognize that you can be in error.
I love you as a brother please understand that what I am going to say is not meant as an attack. When you declare your opinion is set in concrete you are declaring your heart is stone. We are called to be lead by God, that means we have to be open to the truth. No man has perfect understanding. Only God sees and knows all.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

By declaring your opinion is in concrete you are declaring you are infallible.

Matthew 20:28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many not everyone.

Please look at Spurgeon’s Sermon on this very topic.
Particular Redemption
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

The doctrine of Redemption is one of the most important doctrines of the system of faith. A mistake on this point will inevitably lead to a mistake through the entire system of our belief.
.......
All Christians hold that Christ died to redeem, but all Christians do not teach the same redemption. We differ as to the nature of atonement, and as to the design of redemption.
.......
There was never an ill word spoken, nor an ill thought conceived, nor an evil deed done, for which God will not have punishment from some one or another. He will either have satisfaction from you, or else from Christ.
......
For man's sin God demands eternal punishment; and God hath prepared a Hell into which He casts those who die impenitent.


It is not set in concrete Tom, your heart is. You have openly said you will not allow yourself to be lead in any other direction on this. With an attitude like that, how can God lead you?
It doesn’t make me angry Tom, sad would be a better word.
I do believe that the reason you post in the debate forum, and then proclaim you will not debate is because you know your stance is weak. It will not stand up to the bible, when the bible is taken in it’s entirety.  
Not according to scripture.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If what you say is true we wouldn’t need preachers, missionaries, or evangelists.
If what you say is true then there would be an equal percentage of Christians on every part of the globe.

You have confused predestinate with foreknowledge.
They are completely different terms no more alike than water and stone.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Foreknow
From the Greek, proginosko

Predestinate
From the Greek, proorizo

The scripture says He FOREKNEW who He was GOING TO PREDESTINATE, those He predestinated He called.
Everyone He calls WILL become saved, God is not impotent, He cannot fail.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

The robot idea always comes up with you folks. I have addressed it many times before. We are not robots, we have been rescued - saved.
I suppose the reason you view it as being a robot is you see salvation as being dependent on your work. If you are forced to do the work then by necessity you are either a robot or a slave.
We are spiritually dead we are rescued because God gives us life. Our hearts do not function, God gives us a heart that works. A RESCUE.
When Jesus called Lazarus from the dead was Lazarus a robot?
The Lord was painting a picture of salvation.
If what you say is true then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Because that is not His way.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

You think it is possible to resist Gods will, IT IS NOT.
All that God has given to Jesus will come to him. GOD cannot fail.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

True or False?

I see through the smoke and mirrors of your beliefs because they were once mine.
You don’t understand my beliefs so you see robots, and you can’t answer the questions I have asked.
How can you sell your product if you won’t answer the questions?

Tom,
I am not angry at all. Not one little bit.
The only thing that has angered me is the unfair banning of certain individuals from this forum.
I do need to defend myself though. If someone accuses you of saying things you did not say, what are you going to think? What would you do?
Trust me, I am not angry at all, but it would be nice to debate with someone who would debate from what I have said rather than making up things that I have never said or believed.
Those are the types of things a false witness does. They make things up.

Very simple to answer, we can’t know the mind of God. We can’t know who he is going to save and who he is not.
We witness to every person on the HOPE that God will work on their heart.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Of course it will never happen, it comes from your imagination.
Who has said that would ever happen?


Unless of course they have become mentally incapable through disease or brain injury.
I can’t imagine having a doctrine dependent on the brain of man.
I can’t imagine a God condemning someone to hell because they were not able to do the required work of believing when they never even heard of Jesus to believe in him.
Yet the bible says all sorts of people are in that exact position, having never heard the gospel.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


You wouldn’t, who said you would?
What a foolish statement.
No one can know the mind of GOD!
No one can know who God will save and who He will not.

And true sincerity comes from a heart that has been changed by God.

A couple of people have brought up the idea that the elect are limited to the nation of Israel.
Perhaps this will help to clarify.

Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It is not limited to the Jews.
God had a special relationship to the nation of Israel.
God also has a special relationship to the brick and mortar churches.
The two relationships are similar.
There have been people on this forum that believed that Gods perfect Church was made up of the brick building and the people that run it.
The reality is Gods perfect church is a heavenly church made up of all true believers of various denominations. It is a spiritual church.
This does not change the fact that God has established and blessed various physical churches on this planet.
God uses the Nation of Israel as a picture the Heavenly Israel of God. The Heavenly Israel is made up of true believers from various denominations.
While I could leave you with several posts in an attempt to show you this truth, the fact is God must show you.
I will give you a couple of pieces of the puzzle.
Egypt was and is a physical nation. God also uses Egypt as a picture of the dominion of Satan. That does not mean Egypt is more evil than any other people.
As you read the bible see if you can understand how Egypt is being used to show the dominion of Satan.
A key verse to show this is:

Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 
Jesus was not crucified in Egypt.
Here is a hint that God uses Israel as a picture of the body of believers.
When the Lord returns the earth will be destroyed. God will then create an entirely new earth.

2 Peter 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yet God had promised Israel the promised land FOREVER.

Genesis 13:15  For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The promise was established with Abraham.
Who are the children of Abraham?
Physically they are the nation of Israel.

Deuteronomy 34:4  And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

Yet that physical land will be destroyed in the end.
This is the important connection.
Spiritually Abrahams children are the true believers.

Romans 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is the Israel and elect of God.

Galatians 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John

I do have one more post in me but it must wait, I wasn't even home for a day before I must leave again.

Left Coast,

I've read your posts and understand your beliefs. You are a Brother in Christ, and I won't debate your beliefs with you. I'll save you the time of stating I don't have a valid argument. I have a barrage of hard evidence from the Holy Bible, but I won't waste my time. You are already saved, and we can simply agree to disagree. BronzeSnake can argue with you if he wishes, but I have better things to do with my time. I already know you will have several negative comments about this post, so go ahead and make them and have the last word.

In reference to banning, I don't have the power to do that. I simply compile copies of posts and make a recommendation to ADMIN. ADMIN is a full grown and mature Christian, and the CU server is owned by him. Someone's use of Christians Unite is exactly like you inviting someone into your home to visit. You don't have to ask anyone about removing that guest from your house, and neither does ADMIN. You've made your point over and over that you disagree with some who were banned, so that is old news that won't change. I doubt that you will allow anyone to tell you who will or will not be in your home, and the same is obviously true with ADMIN. As a volunteer, I appreciate his wisdom and actions to maintain services to thousands of Christian web sites and provide Christians Unite Forum to over 2,000 users. Christians Unite is stronger than ever, and that isn't an accident. ADMIN is a very intelligent man, but he also has a Lord and Saviour who leads and guides him. You got the 10 cent tour free from me. For the other 90 cents, take a look at the main portion of Christians Unite.

By the way, the Holy Bible is set in concrete, not my heart.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Along w/ a question like that usually comes the question concerning what is the TRUTH? because here we have good and evil only and that (im sure you already heard) is either God or the devil. you have to ask yourself many other questions that tie to why so many believe in God, questions about other world religions, then you have to ask yourself the question concerning Jesus Christ, is he really real? or is he fake? did people make up that story? could it really happen that a women who has never slept w/ anyone all of a sudden become pregnant w/ the Son of God? to the very last question Where is Christs flesh and bones? are they in his tomb? why is the tomb open to this very day? why are all of the other prophets you can dig up their bones by Christ's cannot be found? is this really just a made up story? all of this should boil down to this: Well if this is all true, then WHO is the truth?

But first and foremost ask yourself these questions: Who am I, Why am I here? (is there a purpose to life?) And where am I going? (heaven or hell?)

Tom
It wasn’t my intention to get into the banning issue.
You had commented I was angry, when I was not.
You said,

I tried to explain I was not angry at all.
Not one bit.
There is only one thing that has made me angry on this forum. So I stated what that was.
As you know I have said ADMIN has the right to do what he wants, it’s his forum.
But just because he has the right doesn’t make it right.
If you go to Singapore and chew gum they have the right to cane you. It is their right, but it doesn’t make it right.
If you go to Iran and are found guilty of stealing they have the right to cut off your arm, that doesn’t make it right.
If you go to all sorts of countries and preach Jesus Christ they have the right to do all sorts of horrible things to you, but it doesn’t make it right.
I have made it very clear I will no longer continue on this forum, after this particular topic has been exhausted - (and all the wanderings of this topic) - you will no longer hear from me.
You wish to preach to the pulpit on this forum.
I believe it is necessary to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
All the world includes people like Heidi, and Michael, evolutionists, SDA’s, ETC.
The success of the forum in numbers has never been the question. It is very clear to me after trying to debate this issue with Bronze that a vast number of your 2,000 members are either unable to debate, or are unwilling to debate, the topics.
When I present questions either there is no response or I am accused of believing and saying things I never brought up or believed, false witness.
How do you expect to sell your product?
You go into the G.M. dealer to buy a pickup.
You ask the salesman how many mpg you get with the diesel engine.
The salesman says, “you think a Dodge has more power with their Hemi, that’s because you don’t care about our oil reserves.”
Then you ask the salesman about the warrantee. He replies, “why don’t you go look at the red one over there?”
Would you buy a truck from the guy?
That is how this debate has felt to me, either there is no reply, or I am accused of saying or believing in something I never said or believed in.
While those types of debates are expected in the political world they serve no purpose for truth seekers.
I am sorry if you feel criticism is negative, some people view criticism as input for improvement.
I believe my criticism is valid, you do not, we can leave it there.

That is not what you said earlier.
You said your opinion was set in concrete. Your opinion is your understanding of the Holy Bible.
My opinion is not set in concrete.
Thanks to God, I learned a long time ago that my concrete opinions can be very, very wrong.
Thanks to God, I began to understand there is only one true God. I began to ask Him to show me truth. I have had one continual prayer for many years.
Every time before I read the bible, every day, I pray with all my heart that God will open my eyes to the truth.
Every day I plead with God that if my understanding is in error He will not only lead me to the truth, but He will also keep me from teaching what is not true.
I plead with God for mercy and wisdom and understanding.
I want to be absolutely certain I know God in truth.

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I have gone down wrong paths before, they often look like the right one.
My opinion is based on the bible and the bible alone, nothing more and nothing less. No dreams no visions, not the teachings of men and their imaginations, but the bible only.
While you can’t see it, I have found my understanding to be in absolute harmony with the whole bible.
You have had to add to the bible an age of accountability because you understand there are babies that will be in heaven, but your doctrine won’t work for them. They can’t perform it.
Your age of accountability requires you to reject part of the Bible, because the Bible says we are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

You must add to the bible and you must take away from the bible, for your doctrine to work. If the bible is set in concrete why do that?
There are many other errors in your “opinions”, you don’t wish to discuss them, I do understand your reluctance.
My opinion is not set in concrete, I know I can and will be wrong. I seek God for guidance. I am confident He is faithful to me, he knows when and how to open my understanding.
Your opinion is set in concrete, you feel you have infallible understanding. Many people feel they have infallible doctrine or their church has infallible doctrine.
Who is God going to lead?
Those that refuse to be lead, or those that plead with Him to lead them?
I am going to go with the latter.

I suspect (I have said this before) that this will be my last post on this forum.
It is a long post, about half of it is scripture.

Part 1
This is hopefully a clearer attempt at addressing WHOSOEVER

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is probably the most quoted verse of scripture.
Today, thanks to the prompting of teachers, most people view the verse as an invitation. It is not an invitation, it is a statement of fact.
It is a fact that everyone that believes in Jesus will not perish, they will have everlasting life.
The Greek word in the original language translated ‘whosoever’ is the word <PAS>, it is almost always translated ‘all’.
All that believeth in him should not perish...
One question is:
What does it mean to believe?
Unfortunately many people think that knowing who Jesus is, is believing in him.
All sorts of people claim to believe in Jesus:
Methodists, Pentecostals, Dutch Reformed, Catholic, Mennonite, Freewill Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Episcopalian, Orthodox, Etc. all believe in Jesus. Yet their doctrines and beliefs vary radically from each other.
Consider the Southern Baptists. 100 years ago the beliefs of the Southern Baptists were radically different than they are today.
There are others that many consider to be way out there:
Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, all have a belief in Jesus.
There are some that believe in Jesus and reincarnation.
There are new age Jesus believers.
Clearly there is more to believing than meets the eye.
When Jesus returns many people that had a belief in Jesus, and even felt they were working for him will find themselves spending all of eternity in the Lake Of Fire.

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is not so simple to believe, as many would like you to think.
Everyone that believes in Jesus will become saved, but it is not a belief that can be accomplished by mans will.
It is a belief done by God. His mercy, not mans choice.
 
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Those that receive him, that believe on his name do so not by any ability in man. It is entirely Gods work.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Saving belief is the work of God.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No one can resist Gods will.

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Paul did not make a freewill decision for Christ. Most people on this forum know the story.
Saul (Paul) was on his way to destroy Christians when the Lord appeared before Saul with such a presence that choice was not involved. (Acts 8 and 9)
Paul was certain his salvation was by Gods will and not his own.
Of the 14 epistles written by Paul, in 10 of them he begins the letter by making it clear he was called, or chosen by the will of God.

Romans 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
 
1 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1:1  Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Galatians 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother‘s womb, and called me by his grace,
Galatians 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Think about that last verse.
A child does not adopt the parent, we are adopted by Jesus to himself according to his pleasure.

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
Colossians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

With the exception of Philemon, Paul continues to preach salvation is by Gods calling and work in the remaining epistles.

2 Thessalonians 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Thessalonians 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is faithful, if he has called you he will save you.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It is Gods work that you become saved. He has pleasure in those he saves.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul clearly gave the full credit of salvation to God.
Paul preached, time and time again, salvation is dependent on God calling you and working in you.
Paul preached God chose (elected) who He was going to save.
Paul preached God is faithful in this and God cannot fail.
No where does Paul say, “I chose Christ.”
No where does Paul take credit for believing.
Maybe someone might want to suggest Paul didn’t understand. Somehow his understanding was tainted by his personal experience.

Part 2
Does Peter claim salvation was by his freewill decision?
Not that I know of.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Peter 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
 
Show me if I am wrong, nowhere does Peter claim he made a freewill decision for Christ.
Some say Joshua told Israel that they could choose salvation. That is not what he said.

Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

We can choose to sin, or we can choose not to sin.
We can choose to follow God and show him we sincerely want to spend eternity with him, or we can follow other paths. If we want to be saved we should show God we are serious about such a desire.
If we really want to be one of Gods we need to let ourselves be lead by him.
Man has no right to claim his own doctrine is infallible. When we refuse to accept the possibility we could be wrong we are no longer following God.
I know of no one, in the bible, that claims they are saved by their freewill decision.
Yet that is the common declaration today. Everyone wants to tell you when they accepted Jesus.
By claiming believing is in every persons capability, and it is up to you to do it, freewill salvation is boasting a superior ability over nonbelievers.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  

Believing in Jesus requires effort and ability, or it is a blessing. It is either a work, or it is a gift.
The freewill doctrine would make it your work.
Both Paul and Peter claim they were saved as a result of God choosing them and calling them. Not that they chose God.
Jesus also says this is the way.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some claim God draws everyone. Such a claim does not have the support of scripture.
Jesus says that all that the father gives him will come to him. He will lose none of them.
God cannot fail.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did you notice Jesus ties believing to those God has given to him?
I know this has been long, remember Matthew 7:21?

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Those that do the Fathers will are those he has given to Jesus.
I feel I have covered believing in enough depth to show that it is a result of God working in us.
A couple more verses:

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

It is sometimes taught, usually by those that preach salvation by your freewill action, that election means you don’t do anything. You just wait for God to slap you upside the head with salvation.
While this may be somewhat true, it is a foolish path to take.
The true gospel is available to all types of people and it is not limited by mental capability.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

All have sinned, there are no exceptions.
God can save tiny infants and the mentally incompetent.
Some are born mentally incompetent, others lose their mental competence later in life through injury or illness.
Freewill has tried to address babies by inventing a doctrine called, ‘the age of accountability’. It is not in the bible. It is the result of a need to fill a gap in their doctrine.
Some claim babies don’t sin so they have never been estranged from God. The bible says we are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
 
Until we become saved we are counted among the wicked.
God does save babies, but it is completely his work.
While the freewill teachers have tried to address those that are born without mental capabilities, they have no solution for those that have lived a life of sin and lost their mental capabilities.
God can save those unfortunate ones also, it is his choice.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
   
I think I can safely say few on this forum are in the mentally incompetent category. We tend to see others as being like us. It is hard to imagine that someone could not make a freewill decision.
Some have lost loved ones to Alzheimers, or have seen loved ones lose their mental ability through stroke or injury.
Others have loved ones who are in deep coma. The soul is hanging on to the body through life support.
If salvation was dependent on making a freewill decision then these loved ones would have no hope.
Fortunately salvation is dependent on Gods mercy.
For those of us that do have the mental ability I would recommend doing everything possible to get yourself saved.
Prayerfully read the scripture, and look to God for your understanding.
Leave yourself open to the possibility that what you think is right is not, allow God to lead you.
Plead with God to save you, and don’t quit just because you think you are saved.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Most importantly turn away from your sins.
Do everything you can to repent. Plead with God to make you faithful.
Having a belief in Jesus is an important first step. Ask God to give you true faith.

Mark 9:24  And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

God chooses who he is going to save not because there is something special about them.
Not because they are wiser, or kinder, or prettier, or because of any quality in them. He has his own reason for choosing who he is going to save.
He chose to save Jacob instead of Esau to show that salvation was a result of his choosing. He did it to prove election.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
I pray God blesses you,
Goodbye,
John

God exists!  I have seen his face:
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

And let me tell you something, it is beautiful.  I can see his hand in every good and every growth in this world.  When you get up in the morning, do you consider the sunrise?  How can that be done without God?  I pray that you might see him and know him someday.  

Besides, even if he doesn't exist (which I believe he does) it wouldn't hurt to prepare as if he did. . . .

2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

1 Corinthians 15:22-23: "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming."

Romans 5:18  "So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men, so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men."

John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Romans 8:32: "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?"  

1 Timothy 2:4-6: "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all..."

2 Pet. 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

John 1:19: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

John 6:51: "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

John 6:33: "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

2 Cor. 5:19: "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

1 Thes. 5:14 "Brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men"
 
Gal. 6:1 restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness"

Brothers, these issues are purely disputable.  I am not here to debate or argue, just pointing out a clear error.  Keep the main things the main and the small things small.  These are what we can all agree on because they are sound.  
Titus 1:9."Holding fast the Faithful Word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by Sound Doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers"

I don't know whether or not people are chosen by GOD when I meet them, but I know that GOD has commanded me to do something.


“All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Mt. 28:18-20 ASV).