Mark of the Beast Technology here!

[JitC]

Jesus tells us that He will come for those who are His. Do you think He was lying when He said that?

Of course not.

It doesn't matter a hoot when you, or I, or anyone else believes the Rapture will take place.

I agree that it doesn't matter as far as who is saved. But when millions of people who are new to Christianity are told the pre-trib theory is fact, the stage is set for many to be lead the wrong way if the rapture doesn't happen when they think it's supposed to.

Jesus didn't tell us that whosoever understands the entire Bible will be saved...He said...Jhn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I never implied that salvation is based on belief in a certain doctrine. What I was trying to say is that belief in false doctrine can set the stage for spiritual disaster.

2nd Timothy, the first post to you was asking if that verse was in reference to a pre-trib rapture. I was hoping it wasn't, because if it was then it was blatantly taken out of context. I don't know that it was though, that's why I asked. But as far as the posts after that, talking about people blatantly taking things out of context to prove a pre-trib rapture, I was actually not thinking of your post at all. I was thinking about the authors of the Left Behind series, and a pastor at a church I went to. The three of them teach things to people, and it sounds to make so much sense. But if you look it up in the bible, you find that what was said is blatantly out of context. Obviously these people, who know better, were aware that it's out of context. But it serves their purpose, so they are willing to ignore truth (especially since newbies to Christianity won't know better). It's sad. But I honestly wasn't referring to you in those posts. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

[2nd Timothy]

2nd Timothy, the first post to you was asking if that verse was in reference to a pre-trib rapture. I was hoping it wasn't, because if it was then it was blatantly taken out of context. I don't know that it was though, that's why I asked. But as far as the posts after that, talking about people blatantly taking things out of context to prove a pre-trib rapture, I was actually not thinking of your post at all. I was thinking about the authors of the Left Behind series, and a pastor at a church I went to. The three of them teach things to people, and it sounds to make so much sense. But if you look it up in the bible, you find that what was said is blatantly out of context. Obviously these people, who know better, were aware that it's out of context. But it serves their purpose, so they are willing to ignore truth (especially since newbies to Christianity won't know better). It's sad. But I honestly wasn't referring to you in those posts. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

Perhaps I did read more into it than you meant....my appologies.  Just out of curriousity....what do you interpret this verse to mean?

Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

....what do you interpret this verse to mean?
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:25-28:
"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations …”
These are the things that are also mentioned in revelation, during the tribulation.

“…men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming…”
People will know that they are in the seven years of tribulation, and that can be stressful enough to cause this. Also, this wouldn’t be before the tribulation, because we wouldn’t yet know that “those things which are coming” would be so imminent.

“…Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory…”
This is how Jesus will be coming during his second coming. Even the writers of “Left Behind” acknowledge that Jesus’ second coming, after the tribulation, will be in the sky.

“…Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
When what “things begin to happen”? If it’s during the tribulation, there will be plenty of things. But before the tribulation, there isn’t anything mentioned that even resembles the things just mentioned.

Anyway, I think that by me saying it’s “blatantly clear” that Luke 21:28 was not in reference to a pre-trib rapture was a bit exaggerated. I apologize. I do think it’s clear, but maybe I should have left out “blatantly”.

My problem with the pre-trib rapture theory isn’t that I believe it’s incorrect (which I do). It’s that I believe it is a dangerous theory to teach people as fact. For somebody with a strong faith, it might be ok to discuss it as though it’s fact. But with people who are new to the faith, if they learn it to be fact, and the tribulation comes soon without the rapture, they will be angry, confused, spiritually and emotionally unstable, etc. I think that if people are to teach new believers about the pre-trib rapture theory, then it should be taught as theory. Not fact. I think it’s gambling with their spirituality by teaching something to be a fact, that may very well turn out wrong.

If the rapture happens before the tribulation, then it’s no big deal. But if it happens after, many people will feel so mislead that they won’t know whom to trust.

[Bronzesnake]

JitC quote...
 

If the rapture happens before the tribulation, then it’s no big deal. But if it happens after, many people will feel so mislead that they won’t know whom to trust.

 That's a fair assertion I guess. However, I don't believe it would cause any saved Christians to lose their salvation - I can't see how it could. Do you believe that - knowing the warnings from Revelations - they will accept the mark of the beast because the Rapture didn't happen when they thought it would?

and what about this scenario...

 The Rapture occurs, and is in fact pre-trib, however, many "part time, or misinformed Christians" miss it. Will they believe the Rapture hasn't happened "yet" and lose hope when it doesn't appear to be coming at all?
 The Bible doesn't tell us if the people "left behind" will know a Rapture even happened. How will the governments of the world explain all the missing people? Will some catastrophe occur, which would lead the world believing there was some kind of mass death toll? Will God simply wipe out all memory of the Raptured saints from the people left behind? There must be some kind of "logical" explanation, otherwise the world's remaining population would know without any doubt that the Bible is true - that God is real - and He does what He says He's going to do. How could anyone be so stupid to accept satan and his mark, and doom themselves for eternity if they knew the Bible was true?...We just don't know...we can't answer those questions without theorizing.

I still believe that a pre-trib Rapture fits in best with the scriptures - have a look at the thread started by "Kraken" on this topic - I debated him right off this forum with strong scriptural backing for the pre-trib Rapture.

 Having said that - I do accept the possibility that I may be wrong. It is our duty to explain this to new Christians regardless of when we believe the Rapture will occur. Once we understand the possibilities, we will be ready regardless of when the Rapture occurs. This isn't the only doctrine that could cause problems JitC.That's why all Christians must attend a strong Bible believing Church where these things can be taught by a competent pastor and fully explained. A "new" Christian that receives his/her teaching from friends or off of forums will have continuous problems, and find much confusion in attempting to sort out the - cults - nutbars - and the liberals, from the truth.


Bronzesnake

[Jesusinme]

Doesn't Scripture say "No man knows the hour"? Jesus says "repent, If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev.3:3).
Will Jesus come in secret to resurrect the elect?
No, every eye will see him and every ear will hear him(Matthew24:27;Luke 21:27; Rev.1:7; 14:14;1 Thes. 4:16;1 Corinthians 15:52; Matthew: 24:31; Rev. 11:15)
When did Christ say he was coming to rapture his people? "Immediately after the tribulation..." (Matthew 24:29-31) What is another name for rapture? "First resurrection" is the bible word, and that happens immediately after the tribulation at the last trump and only for the elect (Rev. 20:5,6; Matthew 24:30-31) On the last day(John 6:39,40,44,54; John 11:24) The dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) The two witnesses are dead in Christ, and they will be raised  at the time of the last trump.
Since the first resurrection occurs after the tribulation, how can it be possible that the saints be raptured before the tribulation? Who are the elect in the first resurrection of Revelation 20:5?
All the believers that died from the old testement until the new. After the dead rise, the elect that remain on the earth are caught up also in the air. That is the first resurrection, the only one for the elect. It is interesting to note that the very verse that a great many in the church hold as the pre-tribulation rapture,(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), is the very verse that speaks of the resurrection of all believers which the tribulation saints are part of in (Revelation 20:1-4)
  This is in Part, of a study I have been doing on the subject of Pre-Trib .

[2nd Timothy]

Jesusinme,

Its difficult at times to seperate which aspect of Christ coming is being spoken of in scripture.   If I could just address a few points you made.

It is interesting to note that the very verse that a great many in the church hold as the pre-tribulation rapture,(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), is the very verse that speaks of the resurrection of all believers which the tribulation saints are part of in (Revelation 20:1-4)

A few things of interest in Revelation 20:4.  First, only martyrs are mentioned as being ressurected.  Specifically, I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.   Also of interest is the group that takes their place on thrones, and judgment is given to them.   Note that the souls are still souls when that happens.   How can we have living already fulfilling their judgment duties before the dead have risen, when we know that the dead in Christ shall rise first?   The rapture is a hope for the living, not the dead.   Previously in Chapter 19, Christ is seen returning with the armies, which were in heaven, dressed in white linen.   Some interesting clues that scripture gives us.  Also, as you said, no man knows the day nor the hour, yet if it were to happen at the end, we could calculate the days till the end from the abomination of desolation where Daniel and Revelation give us exact days in number.   Also, what about the saints who were ressurected in Mat 27:52?   Rev 20:5 will complete the first fruits of the ressurection.


There are many many many evidences in scripture that suggest a pre-trib rapture.   Its fair to say, that its not clear when it will happen.   But important that we be ready for it to happen at any time, and trust in the Lord to take care of his own timing.  But it sure is fun to search through scriptures for clues the God has given us though, aint it?   I love talking about the Rapture.

Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

Do you believe that - knowing the warnings from Revelations - they will accept the mark of the beast because the Rapture didn't happen when they thought it would?

Many people won't believe it to be the Mark. Most will practically choose to believe (though subconsciously) it's not the Mark, because the Mark will seem so necessary to live. Honestly, how many people, who once said the sinner's prayer, will have the guts to face starvation, or willingly be sentenced to die instead of taking up some convenient theory that “it really isn't the Mark”? Yes, I do believe many people who were taught the pre-trib rapture to be fact, will end up taking the Mark partially because of that teaching.

Though that’s not to say they will be the only “Christians” to take the Mark.

and what about this scenario...

 The Rapture occurs, and is in fact pre-trib, however, many "part time, or misinformed Christians" miss it. Will they believe the Rapture hasn't happened "yet" and lose hope when it doesn't appear to be coming at all?

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying. What I think I understand of your scenario is that if the rapture is pre-trib, and people who called themselves Christians, but weren’t really, and never heard of the rapture…
No, I’m lost. You’ll have to explain again.

How will the governments of the world explain all the missing people?

In a pre-trib rapture scenario, people would surely believe about anything, just so they won’t go crazy not knowing what happened.

Will some catastrophe occur, which would lead the world believing there was some kind of mass death toll? Will God simply wipe out all memory of the Raptured saints from the people left behind? There must be some kind of "logical" explanation, otherwise the world's remaining population would know without any doubt that the Bible is true - that God is real - and He does what He says He's going to do. How could anyone be so stupid to accept satan and his mark, and doom themselves for eternity if they knew the Bible was true?...We just don't know...we can't answer those questions without theorizing.

Many people practically refuse to have faith, even in face of overwhelming proof. Jesus healed people who were handicapped for life, yet many who marveled still didn’t believe. To say that people are stubborn is an understatement.

I do accept the possibility that I may be wrong. It is our duty to explain this to new Christians regardless of when we believe the Rapture will occur.

I’m not so against the pre-trib rapture theory being taught, even to new Christians. What I’m against is it being taught as fact, especially to new Christians. If there is a chance the rapture is post-trib, and a chance that many people feeling mislead will accept the Mark as a result, then the logical conclusion would be that teaching the pre-trib rapture as fact will have a chance of leading to many people accepting the Mark.
The very idea that it is such a questionable theory should be enough for any responsible Christian to teach that it isn’t a fact, but a theory. Yet MANY churches teach it as fact, as though there were no other theory. The writers of “Left Behind” didn’t take the responsible route either: they didn’t put in the front or back of the books that it’s a theory, and it may actually happen “at the last trumpet”. They are, in effect, gambling with people’s salvation. (note: For those who believe that once anybody says the sinner’s prayer, they are automatically saved, forever, no matter what: I acknowledge you likely won’t accept what I just said.)

BTW, Jesus did say in the last days many people will begin believing myths about Christianity.

[Bronzesnake]

JitC...

 I really have grown tired of debating the pre/post trib rapture...however - I also recognize that there is a real need to discuss what the scriptures say about this topic. I am not going to engage in any mean spirited debate, which is what some topics, and particularly this one end up becoming - people are very sensitive when others try to surplant strongly held beliefs with their own. The reality of the situation is that there can only be one truth. The pre-trib rapture works best with the scriptures. The post trib rapture literally falls apart when we look closely at what the scriptures relay...

For example; God clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. If you believe what God says, then you must conclude the rapture occurs before the wrath...now, if you believe the rapture occurs post-trib, when does the wrath occur?


 It would appear that you haven't read through the entire pre/post threads on this site. I can't blame you, as there are far too many pages on the topic.

 If you can handle a civil discussion on the facts of the rapture as found in the scriptures - I would be more than happy to have such a debate with you my friend. However - if things get ugly I will bail. So many of these discussions begin with courteous and honest intentions, only to end up foolish and mean spirited - I know, I have said things that I soon came to regret, and I have learned from these exchanges, not to engage in an "I'm right, your wrong" duel. If we can simply state our opinions on the topic without being negative toward each other, I would be glad to discus the topic with you.

Bronzesnake

[JitC]

I really have grown tired of debating the pre/post trib rapture...

Ya, me too. I'll look through the debate about the rapture at some point.

God clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. If you believe what God says, then you must conclude the rapture occurs before the wrath...now, if you believe the rapture occurs post-trib, when does the wrath occur?

I believe the 7 seals and the scroll that John saw are a sort of summary of all that will happen. Just like the first book of the bible gives an overview, and then goes back to describe things in more detail. The 7 trumpets will be sounded throughout the tribulation, and the last one will mark the end of the tribulation. Jesus will come back for his people "at the last trumpet." Then God will pour out his wrath on the world with 7 bowl judgements.

[Bronzesnake]

I really have grown tired of debating the pre/post trib rapture...

Ya, me too. I'll look through the debate about the rapture at some point.

God clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. If you believe what God says, then you must conclude the rapture occurs before the wrath...now, if you believe the rapture occurs post-trib, when does the wrath occur?

I believe the 7 seals and the scroll that John saw are a sort of summary of all that will happen. Just like the first book of the bible gives an overview, and then goes back to describe things in more detail. The 7 trumpets will be sounded throughout the tribulation, and the last one will mark the end of the tribulation. Jesus will come back for his people "at the last trumpet." Then God will pour out his wrath on the world with 7 bowl judgements.

 That doesn't really make sense to me JitC. First off - It's plainly stated in Revelations that very specific judgements are bestowed upon the inhabitants of the earth following each trumpet sound - so your explanation of an "overview" just doesn't fit what is clearly written in the Bible.

 Also - you're separating wrath from tribulation. Tribulation means a time of great trouble - the cause of the time of great trouble is God's wrath...they go hand in hand. In your scenario, the tribulation ends so that Jesus can rapture His people - then, the tribulation begins again with the 7 bowl judgements. At what point of the 7 final years do you believe the rapture will occur? at the end? if so, then how long do you believe the 7 bowl judgements will last?...it doesn't make any sense my friend.

 Many Christians confuse the "last trumpet" with the final trump of God.
 I think you should re-examine a couple of verses - such as...


 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 The above verse clearly makes a distinction between the "last trump" and the "trump of God" This is the last time we find "God's trump" mentioned throughout Revelations. The remaining verses clearly describe trumpets being blown by angels, and not God, as 1Th 4:16 clearly describes.


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 The Rapture occurs at God's last trump...not the "final trump"

 Bronzesnake

[Shammu]

 Associated Press
FDA Approves Use of Chip in Patients
Wednesday October 13, 11:27 pm ET
By Diedtra Henderson
FDA Approves Use of Implantable Chip in Patients to Pass Medical Information to Doctors

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Medical milestone or privacy invasion? A tiny computer chip approved Wednesday for implantation in a patient's arm can speed vital information about a patient's medical history to doctors and hospitals. But critics warn that it could open new ways to imperil the confidentiality of medical records.

ADVERTISEMENT
The Food and Drug Administration said Wednesday that Applied Digital Solutions of Delray Beach, Fla., could market the VeriChip, an implantable computer chip about the size of a grain of rice, for medical purposes.

With the pinch of a syringe, the microchip is inserted under the skin in a procedure that takes less than 20 minutes and leaves no stitches. Silently and invisibly, the dormant chip stores a code that releases patient-specific information when a scanner passes over it.

Think UPC code. The identifier, emblazoned on a food item, brings up its name and price on the cashier's screen.

The VeriChip itself contains no medical records, just codes that can be scanned, and revealed, in a doctor's office or hospital. With that code, the health providers can unlock that portion of a secure database that holds that person's medical information, including allergies and prior treatment. The electronic database, not the chip, would be updated with each medical visit.

The microchips have already been implanted in 1 million pets. But the chip's possible dual use for tracking people's movements -- as well as speeding delivery of their medical information to emergency rooms -- has raised alarm.

"If privacy protections aren't built in at the outset, there could be harmful consequences for patients," said Emily Stewart, a policy analyst at the Health Privacy Project.

To protect patient privacy, the devices should reveal only vital medical information, like blood type and allergic reactions, needed for health care workers to do their jobs, Stewart said.

An information technology guru at Detroit Medical Center, however, sees the benefits of the devices and will lobby for his center's inclusion in a VeriChip pilot program.

"One of the big problems in health care has been the medical records situation. So much of it is still on paper," said David Ellis, the center's chief futurist and co-founder of the Michigan Electronic Medical Records Initiative.

As "medically mobile" patients visit specialists for care, their records fragment on computer systems that don't talk to each other.

"It's part of the future of medicine to have these kinds of technologies that make life simpler for the patient," Ellis said. Pushing for the strongest encryption algorithms to ensure hackers can't nab medical data as information transfers from chip to reader to secure database, will help address privacy concerns, he said.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services on Wednesday announced $139 million in grants to help make real President Bush's push for electronic health records for most Americans within a decade.

William A. Pierce, an HHS spokesman, could not say whether VeriChip and its accompanying secure database of medical records fit within that initiative.

"Exactly what those technologies are is still to be sorted out," Pierce said. "It all has to respect and comport with the privacy rules."

Applied Digital gave away scanners to a few hundred animal shelters and veterinary clinics when it first entered the pet market 15 years ago. Now, 50,000 such scanners have been sold.

To kickstart the chip's use among humans, Applied Digital will provide $650 scanners for free at 200 of the nation's trauma centers.

In pets, installing the chip runs about $50. For humans, the chip implantation cost would be $150 to $200, said Angela Fulcher, an Applied Digital spokeswoman.

Fulcher could not say whether the cost of data storage and encrypted transmission of medical information would be passed to providers.

Because the VeriChip is invisible, it's also unclear how health care workers would know which unconscious patients to scan. Company officials say if the chip use becomes routine, scanning triceps for hidden chips would become second nature at hospitals.

Ultimately, the company hopes patients who suffer from such ailments as diabetes and Alzheimer's or who undergo complex treatments, like chemotherapy, would have chips implanted. If the procedure proves as popular for use in humans as in pets, that could mean up to 1 million chips implanted in people. So far, just 1,000 people across the globe have had the devices implanted, very few of them in the United States.

The company's chief executive officer, Scott R. Silverman, is one of a half dozen executives who had chips implanted. Silverman said chips implanted for medical uses could also be used for security purposes, like tracking employee movement through nuclear power plants.

Such security uses are rare in the United States.

Meanwhile, the chip has been used for pure whimsy: Club hoppers in Barcelona, Spain, now use the microchip to enter a VIP area and, through links to a different database, speed payment much like a smartcard.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/041013/fda_implantable_chip_15.html

Theres a new world coming, and its coming fast.
Bob

[FayeC]

I really have grown tired of debating the pre/post trib rapture...

Ya, me too. I'll look through the debate about the rapture at some point.

God clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. If you believe what God says, then you must conclude the rapture occurs before the wrath...now, if you believe the rapture occurs post-trib, when does the wrath occur?

I believe the 7 seals and the scroll that John saw are a sort of summary of all that will happen. Just like the first book of the bible gives an overview, and then goes back to describe things in more detail. The 7 trumpets will be sounded throughout the tribulation, and the last one will mark the end of the tribulation. Jesus will come back for his people "at the last trumpet." Then God will pour out his wrath on the world with 7 bowl judgements.

 That doesn't really make sense to me JitC. First off - It's plainly stated in Revelations that very specific judgements are bestowed upon the inhabitants of the earth following each trumpet sound - so your explanation of an "overview" just doesn't fit what is clearly written in the Bible.

 Also - you're separating wrath from tribulation. Tribulation means a time of great trouble - the cause of the time of great trouble is God's wrath...they go hand in hand. In your scenario, the tribulation ends so that Jesus can rapture His people - then, the tribulation begins again with the 7 bowl judgements. At what point of the 7 final years do you believe the rapture will occur? at the end? if so, then how long do you believe the 7 bowl judgements will last?...it doesn't make any sense my friend.

 Many Christians confuse the "last trumpet" with the final trump of God.
 I think you should re-examine a couple of verses - such as...


 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 The above verse clearly makes a distinction between the "last trump" and the "trump of God" This is the last time we find "God's trump" mentioned throughout Revelations. The remaining verses clearly describe trumpets being blown by angels, and not God, as 1Th 4:16 clearly describes.


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 The Rapture occurs at God's last trump...not the "final trump"

 Bronzesnake

"If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him."   1Thes.4:14

That verse tells us very plainly that it is "those who "died" in Christ" which Jesus brings back with him.  

[2nd Timothy]

"If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him."  1Thes.4:14

That verse tells us very plainly that it is "those who "died" in Christ" which Jesus brings back with him.  

This is true!   However, to be resurrected, one must first die.   Paul revealed that not all would taste death, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and be caught up to meet those resurrected and the Lord in the air.   The blessed hope!

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

The Resurrection is a promise to the sleeping.  The rapture is a promise and hope for the living!

Grace and Peace!

[FayeC]

"If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him."  1Thes.4:14

That verse tells us very plainly that it is "those who "died" in Christ" which Jesus brings back with him.  

This is true!   However, to be resurrected, one must first die.   Paul revealed that not all would taste death, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and be caught up to meet those resurrected and the Lord in the air.   The blessed hope!

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

The Resurrection is a promise to the sleeping.  The rapture is a promise and hope for the living!

Grace and Peace!

So, are you saying that "the resurrection of the dead takes place at the pre-trib rapture"?

[2nd Timothy]

PAUL is saying it will happen at the same time!  

Grace and Peace!