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| | |-+  What 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 mean ??
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Author Topic: What 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 mean ??  (Read 3471 times)
dan p
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« on: December 31, 2010, 06:54:59 PM »

Hi to all , and most believers are struck at Matt 16 , and believe that the  EKKLESIA/ASSEMBLY  means Church , which is not true , because the  Body of Christ is the Body of Christ with Christ as the Head .

 Matt 16 , does not  PRESENT  it that way !!!

 This is what 1 Tim 1:15 , and here is a literal translation ;  v15  ;  Faithful  ( is )  the Word and worthy of all reception , that Christ Jesus came into the world /KOSMOS   to save  SINNERS  of whom I am  ( the )   FIRST / PROTOS .

THE USE OF  " CHIEF "  in the KJV  represents A MAJOR  cover up in translation work .  "  CHIEF  "  ,  would imply that Paul was the worst sinner , and he was bad , but the emphasis  IS NOT who is the worst !!

 The word  " chief /protos ,  is used in a secondary sense when speaking of  "  Rank or Dignity "

 When reading 1 Tim 1:16 , " in order that in me  FIRST/PROTOS  , Christ  Jesus  might show forth all longsuffering  for a  PATTERN   of the ones coming to believe on Him unto everlasting life .

 What is also interesting , in verse 15 and 16 the  EMPHATIC   Greek words  " I am  "  in the Greek is ,  EIMI EGO and it literally means   "  I   AM  " .

  These words were used of our Lord many times in the 4  gospels , especially the  "  I AM "  of John's Gospel .

 The use of  PROTOS , first  and should be translated  " first  " in each verse , 15 and 16 .

 In the  KJV  , it was translated  " beginning "  in John 2:10  and in 2 Peter 2:20 .   

 So , this means that Paul was the  FIRST  MEMBER in the Body of Christ ,  dan p
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freelygive
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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 10:40:13 AM »

Do you actually speak Greek?

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dan p
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 01:59:06 PM »

Do you actually speak Greek?



 Hi freelygive , and I  am  NOT   a Greek scholar , but I am learnining from some one who is .  If you google R. C. Brock has been teaching me through his book and his translation of Pauls letters .  I have debate people who know more Greek than I , but have stood the test so far .

Then , there is the KJV in the internet , that will give at least give you the  VERB  TENSE  and you will learn more that what Pastors  know or can tell you .

 The more important tense is the  AORIST  TENSE . 


 I also have   MACHEN , NEW  TESTAMENT GREEK  FOR BEGINNERS  and have and interliner Greek bible with English and the Greek translation , and you will be on your way .  dan p


 

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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 09:57:14 AM »

Dan,

You may attempting to learn a little Greek, but I would also recommend you learn to post a point.  Your post is all over the place with no substance to let anyone know what you are really talking about.

You start with this
Quote
, and most believers are struck at Matt 16 , and believe that the  EKKLESIA/ASSEMBLY  means Church
Now there is a lot to cover in Chapter 16 of Matthew.  I mean there is the Pharisees testing Jesus, Peter confessing to Jesus, Jesus foretelling of His death, and tons of minor details in between.  So what in Matthew 16 are you referring too?

You then state
Quote
which is not true , because the  Body of Christ is the Body of Christ with Christ as the Head .
So you said in previos portion that most accept ekklesia to mean church, or assembly, or congregation, but you say that is not true because the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head?  Well no kidding, I mean the body of Christ is the body of Christ.

Then finally you state
Quote
Matt 16 , does not  PRESENT  it that way !!!
ok.

Now I have only deal with your first attempt at a point here.  And here is an overview of it, if I am piecing it together properly, and correct me if I am wrong.
You are referring to Matthew 16:18 which states
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (NASB)

So with that in mind you say that it should not be "church" there, but do not really give us any reason to not interpret that verse to mean church, as in the assembly of believers, who do make up the body of Christ.  It is obvious that Jesus was not talking bout a church, as in a brick and mortar building, or even a specific group of believers, such as the Apostles.  He was speaking of the entire assembly of believers.

Then you attempt to say that Matthew 16 does not present it that way, but you have not even really shown how it was supposed to be shown, and you did not show how it was supposedly incorrect.  This sort of stance is liken to me simply stating "You are wrong" and providing you no details as to what you are wrong about, or why you are wrong about it.

And then we get into ultra dispensationalism
Even though just like your first point, you do not present your evidence well or in a clear thought out process.  But if I get this correct you are saying that Paul was the first person saved.  Because in 1 Timothy 1:15 and 16, the verses should be translated as only meaning 'first' instead of 'foremost' or 'chief'.  And you interpret 'first' to imply that with Paul there is a different dispensation, that somehow Paul becomes the first of something new. 

So let me address a couple of things in this by bringing out the Scirpture
1 Timothy 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. (NASB)

Paul starts off with stating that you can bank on what he is about to say, that it is deserving of acceptance as being true.  What was Paul talking about?  "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners".  I am sure we can both agree to that.  Now the last portion where Paul says he is 'foremost of all'.  You would say that the proper way to interpret that verse would be to say Paul was the 'first' of which Jesus saved.  But to say that you would have to say that there were no sinners before Paul, and we both know that is not true. 

We have to look at who Paul is.  Saul was probably responsible for more Christian death's than any one before him, and possibly after him.  Saul had more followers of Christ imprisoned.  Saul was the Pharisees "Darth Vader"  And it becomes evident in Paul's writings that he still has a tinge of remorse over that.  He is utterly grateful that God has forgiven him for persecuting his followers and blaspheming Jesus in the manner that Saul did...but we see that come through in some of Paul's writings.
1 Timothy 1:15 where he calls himself the biggest sinner of all basically.
1 Corinthians 15:9 where he tells the church he is not worthy to be called an Apostle because he persecuted God's church.

You went on about Eimi Ego which is translated as 'I am' and attempt to say that because Paul used it and Jesus also used then Paul is the first.  John the Baptist used it too, when he said "I am not fit to remove His sandals" and the centurian when he said "Lord, I am not worthy for you to come undery my roof."  And there are dozens of other references of other people using 'I am' and the same eimi ego.  Sorry that argument holds absolutely no weight.  That is like saying because Jesus also used the word "food" that Ronald McDonald is the first of the body of Christ.

And then you switch back to talking of protos and first and say "this means that Paul was the FIRST MEMBER in the Body of Christ"
And I have to ask you a couple of questions here.
What about Peter, James, John, and the other 8?  What about the people in mentiond there in Acts 2:47 where it says that "the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved"?

We see that Christ broke bread and had the last supper with the Disciples and referenced the bread as His body.  And Christ says that it is for them.  Paul refers to the same thing in 1 Corinthians 10:17 and says that "we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread." This would put Paul in the same category as the Disciples to partook of the one bread that Jesus had to offer.  And one that Jesus refers to himself as also in John 6:35 where He says He is the bread of life.  So Paul is clearly seen as not being any different than the Disciples, that there is no extra dispensation, nor does there need to be.  Paul ate of the same bread that James, John, Peter, and the others ate of, that which was the bread of Life that Jesus offered. 
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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
dan p
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2011, 01:17:43 PM »

[quote author.
What about Peter, James, John, and the other 8?  What about the people in mentiond there in Acts 2:47 where it says that "the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved"?

 Hi Brother Jerry , so lets begin with  " what about Peter , James , John and the other 8 " ??

 So , what about them  Huh   Are they in the Body of Christ ?? 

 Where is your verse for that Huh

 dan p

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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2011, 02:39:11 PM »

I showed you where they partook of the bread that Christ called His body.  There is more to support the Disciples are part of the body of Christ, than there is for you to say it started with Paul.
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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 03:12:38 PM »

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Brother Jerry
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2011, 04:16:58 PM »

Thanks PR....was getting busy at work, so did not have chance to dig up more.  But that was one I was heading too Smiley
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Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2011, 04:51:38 PM »

Thanks PR....was getting busy at work, so did not have chance to dig up more.  But that was one I was heading too Smiley

 Wink
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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
dan p
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2011, 05:51:45 PM »

Thanks PR....was getting busy at work, so did not have chance to dig up more.  But that was one I was heading too Smiley

 Hi Bother Jerry , since you were headed to Eph 3:6 , can you tell me your understanding as to what this verse means ??
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 08:37:34 AM »

Just what it says, but just in case, let's put the whole verse here.

Ephesians 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, (NASB)

So that the Gentiles through Jesus are now heirs to the kingdom of heaven, just like the Jews were before.  That the Gentiles are part of the same body of Christ, that the Jews were before, that the Gentiles were now partakers of the promise which is eternal life through Jesus Christ, just as the Jews were before.
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Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
duval
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 11:46:17 AM »

I am not familiar with the work of "Brock".  Thayer has long been recognized by many as the standard when it comes to Greek. English lexicons.  He does not agree with Brock, see pg. 555.---God bless, duval
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dan p
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 02:18:52 PM »

Just what it says, but just in case, let's put the whole verse here.

Ephesians 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, (NASB)

So that the Gentiles through Jesus are now heirs to the kingdom of heaven, just like the Jews were before.  That the Gentiles are part of the same body of Christ, that the Jews were before, that the Gentiles were now partakers of the promise which is eternal life through Jesus Christ, just as the Jews were before.

 Hi Bother Jerry , so where is the verse that says the Gentiles are now heirs to  " the Kingdom of Heaven "??
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dan p
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 02:24:09 PM »

I am not familiar with the work of "Brock".  Thayer has long been recognized by many as the standard when it comes to Greek. English lexicons.  He does not agree with Brock, see pg. 555.---God bless, duval

 Hi duval and the only one that know of Brock are Pauline Dispensationalists , like  C R Stam and Paul Sadler of Berean Bible Society and those that follow dispensational teaching .
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duval
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 06:37:07 PM »

That figures!

Respectfully,
duval
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