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Author Topic: What 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 mean ??  (Read 3514 times)
Brother Jerry
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 08:54:57 AM »

Quote
Hi Bother Jerry , and here is what you should explain and it is #14  , Is this baptism  WET  or  DRY ??

 Have verse for your explanation .

 And what is your exegesis of #17 ??

 On 2  Cor2:10 the Holy  Spirit writes through Paul  , To whom ye forgive  ANYTHING , I forgive also  , for IF I forgave any thing , to whom I forgave it , for your sakes forgave  I it  in  THE  PERSON  OF  CHRIST .

 The 12 Apostles could forgives sins in John 20:23 and Paul had as much authority !!
no Dan.  I should not have to explain anything.  You were the original poster here.  You were the one trying to make a point and you are the one who is failing miserably at that.

If you are getting something from verse 14 you should explain what it is you are trying to say.

If you have some other meaning than what the verse plainly states in verse 14 or verse 17 then it is on you to explain what it is you are talking about.
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Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2011, 07:46:03 PM »

no Dan.  I should not have to explain anything.  You were the original poster here.  You were the one trying to make a point and you are the one who is failing miserably at that.

If you are getting something from verse 14 you should explain what it is you are trying to say.

If you have some other meaning than what the verse plainly states in verse 14 or verse 17 then it is on you to explain what it is you are talking about.


 Hi Bother Jerry , so do not debate , for this is what this site is for , and I am on many sites , best to you , as I will not demand that you debate , but it does look bad for you , dan p
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 07:47:38 PM by dan p » Logged
Brother Jerry
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2011, 09:26:25 AM »

And there is where you are wrong Dan.  I do not look bad for asking you to explain your original position.  I do not look bad for asking you to clarify points in your original post.  It is you who used logical fallacies in attempting to bolster your point by doing nothing but ask questions instead of answering questions already posited to you.

And by the way I did answer your questions, but of course you apparently did not see those answers.  I stated that they were clear in what they said.  I have already stated that vs 14 is a water baptism, a symbolic baptism.  I also stated that vs 17 is clearly what it states.  But I challenged you on both of those and many others to explain what you feel they mean.  But you have yet to do so.

And sorry Dan...you have yet to even start to debate.  Debate requires discussion, and more importantly a discourse on what your actual point is.  You have made few, and none in relation to your original post.  Now if you would like to start over and explain the point you were trying to make, then please do so.
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Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2011, 01:49:36 PM »

Dan,

You may attempting to learn a little Greek, but I would also recommend you learn to post a point.  Your post is all over the place with no substance to let anyone know what you are really talking about.

You start with thisNow there is a lot to cover in Chapter 16 of Matthew.  I mean there is the Pharisees testing Jesus, Peter confessing to Jesus, Jesus foretelling of His death, and tons of minor details in between.  So what in Matthew 16 are you referring too?

 Hi Bother Jerry and am sorry that you are missing my teaching on Matt 16 . 

 #1 , THE WORD CHURCH in Matt 16:18  is talking about an Assembly of believers   NOT  the Body of Christ , and do you see that  BJ

DAN P
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2011, 04:34:05 PM »


 Hi Bother Jerry and am sorry that you are missing my teaching on Matt 16 . 

 #1 , THE WORD CHURCH in Matt 16:18  is talking about an Assembly of believers   NOT  the Body of Christ , and do you see that  BJ

DAN P

What makes you think that Jesus is speaking of only an assembly of believers and not the entire assembly of believers, which is the body of Christ?  Which also begs the questions how do you differentiate between the Body of Christ and the whole of all believers?

And please it is not so much that I missed anything, but that you have not explained your position well enough.  Smiley
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Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 08:29:52 PM »

What makes you think that Jesus is speaking of only an assembly of believers and not the entire assembly of believers, which is the body of Christ?  Which also begs the questions how do you differentiate between the Body of Christ and the whole of all believers?

And please it is not so much that I missed anything, but that you have not explained your position well enough.  Smiley

 Hi BJ , and my laptop quit working and a friend is getting going again and I needed some time to rest as , like many seniors I have medical problems .

 What most believers seem to always forget , is  CONTEXT and the Gospels are all written to God's covenanted people , the Jewish .

  Just look at Matt 26:28 , it is blood of the New Covenant

 Which was shed for the  MANY and How  MANY  is  Many ??

 So , who is He talking too and who are the  MANY Huh


 It is the Jews  and from your repeated questions , it looks like you will never understand what I write , o well .


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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2011, 10:46:14 AM »

So nothing in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) was written for the Gentile, it was all for the Jew?  Is that your stance?
Can you provide Biblical backing for that?
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Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2011, 07:48:09 PM »

 Hi Bother Jerry and the  CONTEXT  says it all .  dan p
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2011, 02:01:14 PM »

So again:

So nothing in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) was written for the Gentile, it was all for the Jew?  Is that your stance?
Can you provide Biblical backing for that?
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Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2011, 07:56:16 PM »

1 Timothy 1:15-16 means what it says Smiley

Paul (then Saul) could not have been forgiven in that world nor in the world to come and yet Paul says IN HIM FIRST Jesus Christ would show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to those who would believe on Him to life everlasting thereafter.

Take a look: Matthew 12:31-32 KJV Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Paul: 1 Timothy 1:13-16 KJV Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Remember that Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not (John 1:11 KJV). They crucified the Lord/. They would have no man to rule over them, but Caesar (John 19:15 KJV). They did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Only a little flock believed. The world was ripe for God's judgment at the rejection of His Son and at the stoning of Stephen (the last straw-so to speak), rather than judgment coming (the wrath to come) God saved the chief of sinners (Acts 9 KJV, 1 Timothy 1:13-16 KJV), His biggest enemy (Galatians 1:13-16 KJV) and through His apostleship/his "office" (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV) by the unscheduled appearance(s)/revelations from the risen, glorified Lord Jesus Christ to and through the apostle Paul~ began a mystery body, time, gospel and destination. Through the FALL of Israel (not the RISE) salvation has come unto the Gentiles:

Romans 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 

Romans 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

This is why Paul says:

1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 4:16 KJV Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Romans 2:16 KJV In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2 Timothy 2:2 KJV And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 2:7 KJV Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
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« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2011, 08:03:42 PM »

So again:

So nothing in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) was written for the Gentile, it was all for the Jew?  Is that your stance?
Can you provide Biblical backing for that?
hi brother Jerry,

I'm not sure I would word it as you did, but isn't it true that Jesus Christ was sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and commanded the 12 to NOT go into the way of the Gentile?

Matthew 10:5-6 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:23 KJV But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 15:24 KJV But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.




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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2011, 08:04:49 PM »

Hi freelygive , and I  am  NOT   a Greek scholar , but I am learnining from some one who is .  If you google R. C. Brock has been teaching me through his book and his translation of Pauls letters .  I have debate people who know more Greek than I , but have stood the test so far .

Then , there is the KJV in the internet , that will give at least give you the  VERB  TENSE  and you will learn more that what Pastors  know or can tell you .

 The more important tense is the  AORIST  TENSE . 


 I also have   MACHEN , NEW  TESTAMENT GREEK  FOR BEGINNERS  and have and interliner Greek bible with English and the Greek translation , and you will be on your way .  dan p


 


Seems like an awful lot of trouble. Why not just believe the Bible?
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 08:11:52 PM »

Just what it says, but just in case, let's put the whole verse here.

Ephesians 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, (NASB)

So that the Gentiles through Jesus are now heirs to the kingdom of heaven, just like the Jews were before.  That the Gentiles are part of the same body of Christ, that the Jews were before, that the Gentiles were now partakers of the promise which is eternal life through Jesus Christ, just as the Jews were before.
Wow, I know I'm new here and all, but I must disagree with this. Sorry.

That God would save people like you and me was a MYSTERY hid in God!
It was UNSEARCHABLE!

Acts 22:21 KJV And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 KJV But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 3:1-5 KJV For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 KJV That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(fellowheirs with those who first trusted in Christ beginning with Paul (1 Timothy 1:13-16 KJV), and included the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians)
^^^^^^^^^
Ephesians 1:12 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The word of truth, the gospel of your salvation is the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV)!

The gospel of Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It is the ONLY gospel that establishes you into the Body of Christ:

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Ephesians 3:7-9 KJV Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the UNSEARCHABLE riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 2:4 KJV Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11 KJV For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

The only gospel that will save you today is the gospel that was revealed to and through the apostle Paul by the risen, glorified Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:11-12 KJV But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:19-20 KJV And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2011, 06:17:12 AM »

Dan,

Your point there does not negate what Paul says in that sentence as well.  As he imitates Christ, and that Christ is the head of everyman.  We are to follow Christ, not Paul, we are to imitate Paul, who is imitating Christ.  Paul speaks of exactly what you are attempting to say in 1 Corinthians 1

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

We see again that Paul explains that he is only a messenger, there is nothing special about him, nothing new with him.  Christ was crucified for the everyone and his message is the same that was Christ, or Peter's, or James, or John's.  There is no special dispensation that started with Paul, he preaches strongly against that.
1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2 KJV If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 KJV Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 08:42:46 AM »

hi brother Jerry,

I'm not sure I would word it as you did, but isn't it true that Jesus Christ was sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and commanded the 12 to NOT go into the way of the Gentile?

Matthew 10:5-6 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:23 KJV But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 15:24 KJV But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Wait please do not confuse what I said.  I was asking of Danp to clarify his position.  And I asked the following, and I will bold some important key words.

"So nothing in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) was written for the Gentile, it was all for the Jew? "

I stand by what I asked of Dan in clarifying his position. 
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Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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