What 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 mean ??

[dan p]

That figures!

Respectfully,
duval

 Hi , and if you have figured it out , what is Dispensationalism , so start a new thread , why not

[duval]

You completelly missed my point.


duval

[Brother Jerry]

You two say a great deal of the same thing....not much.

Duval...if Dan missed your point....why did you not elaborate and explain how he missed your point?  Cause I can tell you right now that Dan is still wondering that himself.

[duval]

Hi Jerry

I reallly didn't want to go that far in this discussion but since asked I shall in a nutshell do so.  Some religions, Jehovah's Witnessess for example depend upon their  special writers for their truths.  I  am persuaded such is true of  dispensationalism as can clearly be seem by names of men and books  entered into the thread.  I have no time for such confusion!

God bless,
duval

[Brother Jerry]

Thank you Duval.  I hope that helps Dan out. 

[dan p]

Hi Jerry

I reallly didn't want to go that far in this discussion but since asked I shall in a nutshell do so.  Some religions, Jehovah's Witnessess for example depend upon their  special writers for their truths.  I  am persuaded such is true of  dispensationalism as can clearly be seem by names of men and books  entered into the thread.  I have no time for such confusion!

God bless,
duval

Hi duval , and who I follow is Paul , since he is the one that follows Christ as Paul writes by the Holy Spirit .


 In  1 Cor 11:1 says , Be ye  FOLLOWERS/ IMITATORS  of me  , even as I also am of Christ  .


 What it means is , " you become " is a command to become followers as Paul leads  .

Then in  1 Cor 4:16 Paul writes by the Holy Spirit , "  Therefore ,  I encourage you , become  (   a  command  )   IMITATORS   of me  .


 Check out  Eph 5::1  ,  Phil 3:17  speak in the same way , "  become IMITATORS " .

 These writers , like Charles Baker ,  C R Stam , Les Feldick and Robert C  Brock  all write of Dispensationalism as Paul has also written and follow Paul . 

 dan p

[duval]

Hi Dan

Paul wrote of false terachers as well!

Jesus said "search the scriptures" not the works of men.  Sorry Dan.
God bless, duval

[Brother Jerry]

I concur Duval.

Dan you are ignoring THE most important part of that verse.  "Even as I imitate Christ"  Imitation is not following.  Following means one is leading while others follow, to imitate can put people on equal footing, one is simply imitating what the other is doing.  And that is what Paul preaches, act like he does, act in accordance to Jesus, we are not to follow Paul as if he was some sort of leader to be above any other man, as a matter of fact in that same chapter in verse 3 it says "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, "  There is no exclusion of anyone in that. 

[dan p]

I concur Duval.

Dan you are ignoring THE most important part of that verse.  "Even as I imitate Christ"  Imitation is not following.  Following means one is leading while others follow, to imitate can put people on equal footing, one is simply imitating what the other is doing.  And that is what Paul preaches, act like he does, act in accordance to Jesus, we are not to follow Paul as if he was some sort of leader to be above any other man, as a matter of fact in that same chapter in verse 3 it says "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, "  There is no exclusion of anyone in that. 

 Hi Brother Jerry and duval , and you should all check what the   VERB  TEXT  is saying , first .


 In 1 Cor 11:1  "  Be  ye followers/ IMITATORS of me " .

 Be in Greek , GINOMAL  ( G3402  in Strong's  )  is i9n the Greek present tense , continuing tense , the Passive voice  , and in the Imperative Mood , which all are  COMMANDED TO DO .

 You are wrong     Yes you are !!


 

[Brother Jerry]

Dan,

Your point there does not negate what Paul says in that sentence as well.  As he imitates Christ, and that Christ is the head of everyman.  We are to follow Christ, not Paul, we are to imitate Paul, who is imitating Christ.  Paul speaks of exactly what you are attempting to say in 1 Corinthians 1

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

We see again that Paul explains that he is only a messenger, there is nothing special about him, nothing new with him.  Christ was crucified for the everyone and his message is the same that was Christ, or Peter's, or James, or John's.  There is no special dispensation that started with Paul, he preaches strongly against that.

[dan p]

Dan,

Your point there does not negate what Paul says in that sentence as well.  As he imitates Christ, and that Christ is the head of everyman.  We are to follow Christ, not Paul, we are to imitate Paul, who is imitating Christ.  Paul speaks of exactly what you are attempting to say in 1 Corinthians 1

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

We see again that Paul explains that he is only a messenger, there is nothing special about him, nothing new with him.  Christ was crucified for the everyone and his message is the same that was Christ, or Peter's, or James, or John's.  There is no special dispensation that started with Paul, he preaches strongly against that.

 Hi Brother Jerry and reread post #23 .
 
 1 Cor 1:12-17 is a completely different interpretation , and why not explain 1 Cor 1:12-17   you can do it !!!

[Brother Jerry]

Hi Brother Jerry and reread post #23 .

I did and my point still stands.  Paul imitates Jesus, if we are to imitate Paul then we should imitate Jesus.  Paul is not trying to say he is any more "special" than anyone else.  Paul even explains that Christ should be the leader of every man, the head.  We should not follow Paul, but follow Jesus.
 

1 Cor 1:12-17 is a completely different interpretation , and why not explain 1 Cor 1:12-17 Huh  you can do it !!!

Again you try and say a point and do not present anything.  You say it is a completely diffeent translation and then do not say what it is supposed to be.  But here for you I will post it here.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17
12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.
16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

now what you may be getting out of this is that since Paul says that Christ sent him to preach the Gospel that it must have started with Paul, but in order to state that you would have to say that Christ never told anyone else to preach the Gospel, which we know is wrong.  I mean these verses seem pretty clear to me and without any problems or complex translations.  You get somethging different from that?

[dan p]

I did and my point still stands.  Paul imitates Jesus, if we are to imitate Paul then we should imitate Jesus.  Paul is not trying to say he is any more "special" than anyone else.  Paul even explains that Christ should be the leader of every man, the head.  We should not follow Paul, but follow Jesus.
 Again you try and say a point and do not present anything.  You say it is a completely different translation and then do not say what it is supposed to be.  But here for you I will post it here.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17
12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.
16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

now what you may be getting out of this is that since Paul says that Christ sent him to preach the Gospel that it must have started with Paul, but in order to state that you would have to say that Christ never told anyone else to preach the Gospel, which we know is wrong.  I mean these verses seem pretty clear to me and without any problems or complex translations.  You get somethging different from that?

 Hi Bother Jerry , and here is what you should explain and it is #14  , Is this baptism  WET  or  DRY ?? 

 Have verse for your explanation .

 And what is your exegesis of #17 ??

 On 2  Cor2:10 the Holy  Spirit writes through Paul  , To whom ye forgive  ANYTHING , I forgive also  , for IF I forgave any thing , to whom I forgave it , for your sakes forgave  I it  in  THE  PERSON  OF  CHRIST .

 The 12 Apostles could forgives sins in John 20:23 and Paul had as much authority !!

 

[freelygive]

Hi freelygive , and I  am  NOT   a Greek scholar , but I am learnining from some one who is .  If you google R. C. Brock has been teaching me through his book and his translation of Pauls letters .  I have debate people who know more Greek than I , but have stood the test so far .

So you don't even speak Greek and you're telling us what the Greek text means? You can only understand the New Testament in Greek if you speak Greek fluently. If you don't, you're merely paraphrasing dictionaries and grammars written by "scholars" who don't speak Greek either. (To be frank, you don't even speak English properly, so how can I trust your Greek-to-English translation?)

English is my second language and I can speak it fluently on an advanced level, yet I still don't understand everything in the King James Version. And that's after more than ten years of being able to speak English fluently! So how can I expect ANYONE who doesn't actually speak Greek for years to be able to explain what the Greek New Testament means?

And secondly, nothing is lost in translation. No language is "occult". The English of the King James Version means exactly the same to me as the Greek of the New Testament to a Greek hundreds of years ago. Anyone who reverts to the Greek to explain some new "hidden" interpretation is a false prophet proclaiming a damnable heresy.

There is a good sermon on this subject, "The Law of the Lord is perfect", http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/032909a.mp3.

[Brother Jerry]

Freely.

Let me start by saying welcome to the forums.  I do not know if I had a chance to welcome you officially so I will do so now.

Good post and you are correct in that your English is very good.  And do not fret.  I have been speaking English all my life (40+ yrs) and there are still parts of it that confuse me.  While it is English, it is like any other language and it changes over time.  The Chinese spoken today, is not the same as it was spoken 400 years ago, and the same can be said of German, Spanish, or any other language.  But good job and thank you.