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Author Topic: Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture  (Read 21482 times)
prophecyjax1
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2003, 01:41:22 AM »

Ok Old Timer-let's expalin the last trump...

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a clear distinction between these two events, for at this trumpet, “all the tribes of the earth shall see Jesus and mourn, and see Him coming.” At the Rapture, only the Bride will see Him and be taken up into the clouds to meet Him in the air. There is clearly a difference in these trumpets. We need to make sure we look at the context of these verses, and use scripture upon scripture. Thus we conclude that this, “great sounding of a trumpet,” or “great trump,” is not the same as the “last trump” of Revelation 11:15, where the Rapture takes place. Remember Zechariah 12:9-14? …”And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him…..In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem….and all the land shall mourn, every family apart….all the families that remain, every family apart…” This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:30, when He says, “…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn..” This great trumpet is not the last trumpet of the Rapture, but rather the trumpet to be blown to announce Christ’s arrival upon the earth. Also notice Matthew 24:31, that when this trumpet blows, God’s elect will be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other,” not the gathering of saints from the earth in the Rapture.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall gotcha76 from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

At the “great trumpet,” many Jews that would have been killed by the Antichrist will be saved and delivered just in time. What a beautiful revelation the scriptures give us!

Now we are ready to put the final nail in the coffin, for a pre-tribulation Rapture. Take special note of the following verses.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Notice that when the seventh Angel is about to blow the last trumpet, that it says, “the mystery of God should be finished.” This mystery Paul was talking about is the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Bride. It’s also referring to the Church age we are now living in. Once the last trumpet sounds, the Bride will be raptured, and the Church age, as we know it, will be over. Remember I Corinthians 15:50-52? Before Paul tells us the Rapture is at the “last trump,” he says, “Behold, I shew you a mystery..” The same word “mystery” is used in conjunction with Revelation 10:7, and the last trump. Here’s another golden nugget to add to this “mystery.”

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The word “mystery “ is used again. When we place all the scriptures together on this great subject, a clearer picture can be seen. Once the trump sounds in Revelation 11:15, the mystery of God will be finished, and the Church age as we know it will cease. The only way this mystery can be finished, is if the Church is now no-where to be found.

Yours,

Michael
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2003, 01:46:15 AM »

Seems to me the last trump is indeed the last trumpet in Revelation, what else can it be?
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2003, 04:26:13 AM »

P>jax>1

You have not addressed the traditions.  

The Jew's had customs and the church is living out some of them.

Why won't you address these?  Is it because you cannot get around them?  You have no way to refute them?


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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2003, 08:31:08 AM »

Early,

Tradition has nothing to do with a mid-tribultion Rapture, but has everthing to do with a pre-trib theory. With that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

The fact of tradition rests upon a 15 year old catholic girl who had a vision of the church being taken out of the world before the tribulation in 1830. Then Irving picked up on it, and John Darby, then Scofield in 1909. That is the church tradition.

If we look at Church history, a pre-tribulation Rapture is much more recent than a mid-tribulation view. American Evangelicals met at various conferences dating back from 1875-1909, to discuss the timing of the Rapture. The Niagara Bible Conference met back in 1875, and the primary view was a mid-tribulation Rapture that most held, among clergy. The mid-tribulation view, as far as history goes, dates back to the 1690’s, not to mention as far back as the Apostle Paul. During these conferences there was a slow shift towards a pre-tribulation Rapture, and we will show you the source of this shift and give the references. From 1909-1952, pre-tribulation teaching gained more ground over the mid-tribulation view, and from 1952 to our present day, pre-tribulation and post-tribulation are pre-dominant. (“The Rapture,” Zondervan 1984,  pp11-12) A mid-tribulation Rapture, is according to history the oldest know view held by the Church of Jesus Christ. We should not however, consider who held which view, based on history, of importance, in comparison to the Holy Scriptures. But the actual research done by others as to the driving source of the pre-tribulation Rapture, is of interesting note, and worthy of bringing to light.

However, you need to ask yourself an honest question. Does the scripture take the preeminence, over what you may have been taught elsewhere, or do you have pre-suppositions on this doctrine? The most important thing is that you do believe and proclaim, that there is a Rapture. My only concern would be, as a minister myself, the issue of credibility. If we are telling and assuring people that we need not concern ourselves “with that,” because we will not be here, and then it happens, will we lose some credibility? If it was important enough for the Apostle Paul to clarify it to the Thessalonians, is it not important for us to do the same? It’s also of worthy note, that many prophets and teachers of God’s Word and message in the past, often proclaimed coming hard times, that others did not. Something to ponder.

Yours,

Michael
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2003, 08:36:08 AM »

Friends,

The prophets of old always warned about evil and judgment to come. In some cases, there were promises of deliverance also. When Ezekiel predicted judgment to come, most of the hearers of his message, said ..”The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off” (Ezekiel 12:27). In other words, it really does not apply for us, for we won’t be here. Sound familiar?

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence:   60
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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2003, 09:59:54 AM »

Ok, prophecyjax1, let’s see if I have this straight.

I don’t have to expect Christ to return until I see the 4 horseman ride forth, I don’t have to expect Him at any moment until I see a great earthquake and the sun become black as sackcloth and the moon become as blood. I can disregard His warning to watch and His telling me that I know not the hour of His coming because I must wait until I see stars of heaven fall to earth and the heaven roll up as a scroll.

His warning that He comes as a thief in the night is wrong because after the above “wrath” I know that the seventh angel has not yet sounded. No, there is still some more of God’s fury to experience before the Rapture.  Hail and fire drop from heaven and 1/3 of the trees burn up,  a great mountain falls in the sea and it becomes as blood. I know He is coming now, right?

Nope not yet, it seems that all those passages that say we will be spared God’s wrath are just a tease, God playing around with His Church. Next the rivers become wormwood (poison, I guess) and the moon and stars don’t shine like they used to. I think I may suspect that something is up and the Lord is a bit angry. Perhaps now I should start to look for Him?    No, you tell me, not quite.

Now the bottomless pit is open and up pops a few locust and they torment everyone for five months. Boy, now I have a real clue that something is about to happen. Just note the day the locust appear and wait five more months. All that stuff about being told to expect Him at any time is just myth and fable. You have provided me with the real scoop on this last trumpet business. I am counting the last five months after seeing the locust.

Five month past, I watch the and listen for the sixth trump, yep here is goes, one third of the entire population dies. Here comes that army of 200 million and there is a lot more people being killed. Only one more thing to expect before my Lord returns. seven thunders. You probably have that figured out also? Now that that’s over I can expect to be Raptured.

Those seven verses that I quoted in my first post that say we will be spared God’s wrath, all hogwash – don’t really mean what they say. All that prophecy from Jesus about coming when it was like the days of Noah; eating and drinking and going about business as usual; and all that stuff about “thief in the night”, just to fool us poor misguided Christian until you came along with the true interpretation. Wow, look at that score, 60 to nothing!  No chance at all you are wrong and Jesus is right.

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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2003, 12:14:44 PM »

     Prophecyjax1,

    Did you read anything I posted? If you did it seems you chose to ignore me.

    I would like to ask a question and get an answer.

    Who was speaking to John in Revelation 4:1? You claimed before that it was "an angel" and I clearly showed it was the Lord Jesus.

    Have you realized your mistake yet or are you sticking with the wrong answer? I need to know where you stand on this issue first. I'm awaiting an answer ....

    One more question for now, would you please give your view of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. When do they begin their 1260 days of prophesizing? When does Antichrist kill them? Why are they the two candlesticks before the Lord on earth? I've given you the answers a few posts back but you seem to ignore my posts. Somehow I doubt you'll agree with me so I'd like your explaination to understand your theory.

     It seems to me your whole theory is centered around the Seventh trumpet. The Seven trumpets are trumpets of judgment blown by angels.

    At the fifth trumpet, Satan is thrown to earth. We learn from Chapter 12 of Revelation that the "woman" Israel fled to the wilderness for 1260 days to be protected from Satan.

Revelation 12:6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
   8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
   9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


      This is the middle of Daniel's 70th week.

 Revelation 12:12  "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
   13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
   14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

      It is clear if you take the 30 seconds to read the above verses you will see that Satan is thrown from Heaven to earth at the middle of Daniel's 70th week at the 5th trumpet mind you.

     Look at versr 12 again... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

 Revelation 12:12  "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


    We haven't gotten to the seven trumpet yet but God is saying woe to the earth, wrath has come.

    The seventh trumpet signals the END of the Great Tribulation.

    I'll let you in on a secret, The seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls of wrath are given in chronological order. The effect these judgments trigger are not in chronological order. The seventh trumpet signals the end of the Great Tribulation. The seven bowls of wrath are poured out after the sounding of the seventh trumpet, yes, but the effects are taking place during the second half of Daniel's 70th week. The wrath of the Lamb is triggered by the sixth seal, but the effects take place midweek.

                                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2


   




   
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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2003, 03:33:39 PM »

There will definitely be a pre-tribulation Rapture.  The Lord will call Christians home before the Tribulation begins. Here are some verses that would be good for you to look up: I Thessalonians 4:16,17, I Corinthians 15:51,52 and Revelation 3:10.  The book of Revelation was written chronologically.  Revelation 1:19 says:  “Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter” (past, present and future).  Chapter 1 speaks of the past and chapters 2 and 3 speak of the present.  Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22.

 

The next event is Revelation 4:1 where John says: “After this I looked, and behold the door was open and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither…” This is the Rapture.   Some people think this passage is speaking only to John but if you read ahead you will see that verses 10 and 11 talk about the 24 elders casting their crowns before the throne.  This scene must take place after the Judgment Seat of Christ in order for the 24 elders to have crowns to cast at Jesus feet.  The Judgment Seat of Christ cannot take place unless all Christians are present.  This would mean that the Rapture has taken place.

 

The next event in Revelation, after the Rapture, is chapter 6, which is the Tribulation.  Since chapter 4 comes before chapter 6 (the Tribulation) then we must conclude that the Rapture does take place before the Tribulation.

 This was sent to me by Jack VanImpe.

 

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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2003, 04:35:24 PM »

I do not give a hoot about Catholic traditions even if they are 15, 20, 25, 30, or even 200 years old.  I want to talk about jewish customs and traditions
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« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2003, 05:04:42 PM »

There will definitely be a pre-tribulation Rapture.  The Lord will call Christians home before the Tribulation begins. Here are some verses that would be good for you to look up: I Thessalonians 4:16,17, I Corinthians 15:51,52 and Revelation 3:10.  The book of Revelation was written chronologically.  Revelation 1:19 says:  “Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter” (past, present and future).  Chapter 1 speaks of the past and chapters 2 and 3 speak of the present.  Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22.


    BronzeSnake,

    I agree with everything in your last post except on sentence above.

     "Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22."

     The above sentence as partially right but something is missing. Philidelphia.

     Philidelphia has the open door in the letter and was promised to be kept from the hour of trial. This is the true church on earth now. Laodicea is a false church on earth now. Somewhere the members have a doctrinal flaw and are not truely saved. All denominations of Churches have Laodicean members. People who belong to a church, are involved doing bake sales but have somehow missed the message of the true Gospel.

    Jehohah's Witnesses, Mormons, many Catholics, some protestants, the cults and "isms" that use Jesus name but don't belong to Him are part of the Laodicean Church of today.

    This church is luke warm and will be vomited out of the Body of Christ at the Rapture because it couldn't be digested into the body of Christ. There are no saved members of this group represented by the Church of Laodicea. If they find the truth of the Gospel and believe it they become members of the Church of Philidelphia and will be Raptured.

    In Jesus' letter to the Church of Laodicea (I say Jesus' letter because he was using John only as a scribe and witnesses, the testamony was from Jesus) Jesus said behold, I stand at the door and knock! Jesus is outside this Church knocking on the door asking to be let in.

    The Holy Spirit bares witness against this church for its members are not Saved. Anyone who opens the door will be placed in Philidelphia and sup with Christ at the wedding feast.

     I've never heard what I'm about to write discussed before.
Its my own personal "theory". I could be wrong and I'm making that perfectly clear before I start.

    I wonder if the Church of Laodicea also represents all who have claimed to be Christian through out the whole Church age but were never really Saved. I'm starting to consider the possibility that Laodicea represents the Apostate Church of the ages as well as the present time. My theory, could be wrong. picking up where I left off...

   There is a format to the seven letters with two exception I'll make note of. Each letter starts off mentioning a certain characteristic of the vision in Chapter 1.

    Then Christ gives first words of Commendation, followed by words of Condemnation.

    The exceptions are Smyrna which prophetically represents the Martyr Church from 100a.d. to 314a.d apr. to the martyr Church of Smyrna there are no words of condemnation. They were dying for Christ, why should he scold them?

    The Church of Philidelphia is the Church that got the word of God out and receives no words of condemnation. This true Church has been promised to be removed from the hour of trial to come on the earth and be Raptured through the open door of Heaven.

    Theres one more exception in the letter to Philidelphia.
I've never heard it mentioned before by anyone. Remember I said that each letter mentioned part of the chapter 1 vision?

  to be continued on the next post

                                           The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2
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Paul2
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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2003, 05:56:18 PM »

      I left off here: Take the three minutes and read this, you won't be wasting you time!


    Theres one more exception in the letter to Philidelphia.
I've never heard it mentioned before by anyone. Remember I said that each letter mentioned part of the chapter 1 vision?


    Take a look at this, first lets see what the vision of chapter one says:

Revelation 1:18   "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Now look at the letter to Philidelphia:

Revelation 3:7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


      All the letters to the seven Churches mention some aspect of Christ from the vision of chapter 1, but Philidelphia's is different. Do you see it yet?

     I'll show it to you:

In the vision of chapter 1 notice the words in bold print.

Revelation 1:18  " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Now notice what the letter to Philidelphia says


7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

     The keys of hell and death are not mentioned in Philidelphia's letter. Instead the key of David is mentioned but wasn't mentioed in the vision of chapter 1.

     It seems that Jesus now holds the key of David, which must open the door of Heaven and allow the Rapture to take place. Jesus isn't ready to use the keys of hell and death at the present time which the letters represent, the Church period. The key Jesus NOW holds in His hand is the key to the open door in Heaven being placed before us at the Rapture.

    When the Rapture takes place the door will be shut and locked again. Theres only one time the door will be open, if you miss His call at the Rapture, there won't be a second call.

    Jesus is judging His church in the seven letters and is holding the key of David Now just as he judges His church now. Judgment for the church continues until the Rapture. Laodicea is vomited out of the body of Christ at the Rapture.

     Jesus holds in His hand now, the key of David. Why?
Because He is going to unlock the door of Heaven and Rapture His Church. He doesn't need the keys to hell and death for over a thousand years. The key of David is in His hand Now, the Rapture is imminant.

    I  should be writing a book!

    I'm joking, I don't have nearly enough knowledge and my writing skills and spelling are horrible and I'm not arrigant enough to claim I have all the answers. I have enough answers to have realized that the Bible teaches Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I find more evidence all the time.

     Let me know what you think, anybody interested?

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 Cool

                             
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2003, 06:22:11 PM »

Hi Paul2.
Thanks for the commentary, I like it.
However, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say...

" When the Rapture takes place the door will be shut and locked again. Theres only one time the door will be open, if you miss His call at the Rapture, there won't be a second call."

 After the Rapture there will be many left behind who will realize their mistake and become true believers; Those who refuse to worship the beast or accept his mark, and are beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

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« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2003, 07:36:38 PM »

Paul and Bronze,

Yes I am reading your posts, and apprecaite your honest answers. You have shown a good spirit, and honest debate, and have respect for your views. However, you keep mentioning God's wrath, and I agree we are delivered from it, which does not even start till Rev 16:1.

Also the last trump actually sounds in Rev 11:15. The burden of proof lies with you to dis-prove that, and you just make statements claiming it is not, yet scripture does not back it up.

Plus you miss Acts 3:19-21.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

God the Father will not send Jesus Christ back UNTIL the times of restitution, or restoration of all things. The Greek word for restitution in Acts 3:21 is “apokatastasis,” taken from “apokathistemi,” which means, “RESTORE AGAIN!”  Jesus will return when the Church is fully “restored again.” This restoration will be during the first 3½ years of the tribulation, as Christ is preparing His Bride for the Rapture. A lot of repenting and purging will be going on, and many conversions.

Elijah must first come, and the two witnesses of Rev 11 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs to the church and be raptured in chapeter 11, same time as the Church. And the Woman in Rev 12 is the Church.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice, “Her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.”  The Bride of Christ, is shown raptured here, and to rule all nations with Christ. This cannot be Israel, because Israel, and the twelve tribes are ruled over, not the ones ruling. Only the Bride “will rule and reign a thousand years with Christ” (Revelation 2:26-27, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalm 2:8-10, Psalm 149:6-9, Luke 22:28-30, and Matthew 19:28). Let’s clarify something here, before we conclude that Revelation chapter 12 is not talking about the Jews or Israel. Israel is mentioned in the entire Bible 2301 times, and only 3 of those references are in the book of Revelation. Revelation 2:14 mentions Balaam, who taught Balac how to cause Israel to stumble. In Revelation 7:4, the 144,000 Jews are saved, and in Revelation 21:12, it’s referring to the names of the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven. Nowhere else in the book of Revelation is Israel referred to. The Jews are mentioned 244 times in the entire Bible and only mentioned twice in Revelation. The two references in chapters 2 and 3, Christ was referring to false Jews. Nowhere else in Revelation are the Jews referred to. However with that said, look at some of the following references in the book of Revelation.

1)   The Saints          13 times
2)   The Church               7 times
3)   The Churches         12 times
4)   The Brethren             4 times
5)   Servants                      10 times
6)   The Bride                          4 times
7)   The Lambs Wife                       2 times
Cool   Those in White Robes        4 times
9)   Those in White Linen        2 times
10)   Everlasting Gospel                    1 time
11)   Prophets                        8 times
12)   Jesus             12 times
13)   The Lamb of God                    27 times

Compare these references to the fact that the Jews and the Nation of Israel are not specifically referred to one time in Revelation. Also mark the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16; “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.” Still think the Church is not mentioned or somehow involved in the book of Revelation? According to these references, it sure looks like a lot of saints from the Church will be around, along with the two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13. And so will the Everlasting Gospel with God’s end-time message, which must also first be preached.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13 will have a world wide piercing message to proclaim for the entire world via satellite television. God will raise up Prophets, Teachers, Ministers, Evangelists, Pastors, Men of God, and Saints to team up with these two men for one last message of hope for the world. It will be a unified message with one voice, one faith, one mind, one vision, one Church, and total unison. Even Angels themselves will assist in this end time Gospel Message. We believe when “this gospel” has reached the world, THEN the end shall come. That’s not to say the Gospel is not being preached worldwide today, because it is. However, millions have still not been reached, and God will see to it that every soul has a chance to hear it before the end comes. This “Everlasting Gospel” will be a message of Repentance, Restoration, the Fear of God, and a final warning to the masses of this world.

Yours,

Michael
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« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2003, 07:46:55 PM »

Guess it's just too plain and simple for us to realize the Apostle Paul said we shall be raptured "at the last trump." I cor 15:52. Knowing this trump is not the same as the "great trump" in Matt 24, because that's the literal second coming of Christ when all the earth shall see him and mourn. (Zechariah.)

The burden of proof lies with you to prove this is not the last trump of Rev 11:15, other than just claiming it is not. Evidence must come from your Holy Bible, not some preacher like Jack van Impe. You possiblt cannot show by SCRIPTURE that this "last trump" is any other trumpet than the last of the seven trumpets. Clearly a different timing when Christ comes back with his saints at the "great trumpet" of Matt 24. We are already raptured by then and prepared to come back with Him.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence:     75
pre-trib theory       0
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« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2003, 07:55:11 PM »

Guys,

I'm sorry, but the pre-trib rapture is a devised fable concerning the coming of our Lord.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Wherever knowledge is held at a discount, ignorance becomes a premium, then fables can easily make their way in. Proper dividing of the Word will be a good defense against man’s traditional teaching verses the scriptures.

BTW, I used to preach pre-trib years ago, until the Holy Ghost showed me the "last trump" in I Cor 15:52. I set out to find this last trump, and clearly Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15 is it.

Yours,

Michael

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