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Author Topic: Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture  (Read 18798 times)
prophecyjax1
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« on: May 07, 2003, 04:59:03 PM »

Hello everyone, my name is Michael Hollner, a minister in Jacksonville, Fl. I just finished my book on the Rapture of the Church and the Bride of Christ. Before I send it to publishers, I should like to sharpen my sword a bit, and answer any questions regarding the timing of the Rapture. I want to give this book the acid test, the Word of God, and to satisfy any doubts that the Rapture will occur in the middle of the 7 year tribulation period.

We believe if it was important enough for the Apotle Paul to tell the Thessalonians about the timing, so do we.

With all due respect and humility, I honestly do challenge anyone to come up wih even one verse of scripture for a pre-tribultion Rature. After 20 years of research, we have concluded a mid-tribulation Rapture to be a "more sure word of prophecy."

My book is available for FREE viewing, even before it gets published, and any lettes of recommendation will be printed in the book, with your name and Church you attend.. Just email me at kjvbiblejax@aol.com, and I'll send you a free copy to critique. If you approve of the book, and send a nice letter of recommendaton, your letter, along with your name and Church will be in the forward of the book which is yet to be added.

If anyone has any questions regarding this great topic, please ask your questions, and I will respond. Let's do it all in a good spirit and be good Christians here.

I'll start it off with Acts 3:19-21 KJV. Jesus cannot come back to earth UNTIL the end-time Restoration takes place through God's two end-time prophets of Rev 11:3-13 and Elijah must also first come.

Yours in Christ,

Michael Hollner
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 05:10:20 PM by prophecyjax1 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2003, 05:22:02 PM »

WRONG!!!! Your teachings are false. Cry
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2003, 05:38:02 PM »

I've send you an email prophecyjax1
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2003, 06:07:10 PM »

Hi prophecyjax1,

What is your opinion on the revealing of the antichrist? Will he be reveal before the first half of the tribulation or at mid point?

Pilgrim
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2003, 06:26:37 PM »

 Seven verses that clearly indicate we shall be saved from the wrath of God: Rom 1:18, Rom 5:9, Rom 13:4, Eph 5:6, Col 3:6, 1Th 1:10, 1Th 5:9.

Jesus makes several prophesies of what it will be like before He returns. Some of these are completely at odds with the  catastrophes of the trumpets. He says is will be like the days of Noah, folks eating and drinking and they know nothing until the flood came, He says that as such an hour as you <B>think not</B> He will come. Now I ask you, how can the Church be experiencing this wrath from God and still not know that He is coming?

<B>The last trump.</B> 1 Cor. 15:52. Here is a portion of Adam Clark’s commentary:
<I>
…we must go to the Jewish writers to know what is intended. On this subject, the rabbins use the very same expression. Thus Rabbi Akiba: “How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed.” See Wetstein. This tradition shows us what we are to understand by the last trump of the apostle; it is the seventh of Rab. Akiba, when the dead shall be all raised, and, being clothed upon with their eternal vehicles, they shall be ready to appear before the judgment seat of God.</I>

In other words, not one of the seven in Revelation. This does not conclusively prove that the last trump of Cor 15:52 is not the same trump as Rev. 10:7 but it does show there is reason to be cautious in jumping to a conclusion that it is.

There are many other reasons to think the rapture will be pre-trip. A would lile to read your book but I am pretty sure you are wrong.

Art

« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 06:29:54 PM by OldTimer » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2003, 02:15:37 AM »

DITTO  Grin

Have you changed your stance A4C?
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2003, 12:55:03 PM »

I reply to Old-Timr's comments and Plgrim,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

To this we say Amen! God surly has not appointed us to wrath, and does promise us deliverance from it. The simple truth of the matter is, in which many fail to recognize, is that God’s wrath does not even begin until the last 3½ years of the tribulation! The first 3½ years are God’s judgments and the last 3½ years will be His wrath. He only promises us deliverance from the second half. So where is the Church before God’s wrath? It’s in the first 3½ years of God’s judgments. Thankfully we are delivered from His wrath and will not have to endure the latter part of the tribulation, for we will have been taken away by this time. This verse does annul a post-tribulation theory, for some do believe we will endure the entire seven-year tribulation. But thank God we will be delivered from His wrath, so assuredly we can “comfort one another with these words” (I Thessalonians 4:18).

Pilgrim---Te Antichrist is rvelaed in the "midst" or middle of the seven year trib period. Read Daniel 9:27 and II Thess 2:4.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2003, 12:59:36 PM »

A final note about the Last Trump.

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2003, 01:03:19 PM »

Old Timer,

Request  FREE copy of the my book, and I'll send it.

Request it at kjvbiblejax@aol.com

Yours,

Michael
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2003, 01:25:10 PM »

WRONG!!!! Your teachings are FALSE!!!!

Have you changed your stance A4C?

No Way Bro
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2003, 01:27:10 PM »

Old Timer,

Request  FREE copy of the my book, and I'll send it.

Request it at kjvbiblejax@aol.com

Yours,

Michael

I would put your book in one of my bathrooms.
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2003, 02:15:16 PM »

Still not one verse of scripture to say Jesus can come tonight.

False teachings? PROVE IT!

Michael

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2003, 02:51:48 PM »

   Titus 2:12  "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
   13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
   14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

     The Rapture is a revealed MYSTERY. This means evidence needs to be gathered to reveal the mystery. The two witnesses play a role and their timing is key. All of Scripture must be considered, not a single verse to explain a revealed mystery. The key to the book of Revelation is Rev. 1:19. If you misunderstand what that verse means you will not understand format of the book.

     The 70th week of Daniel begins with a covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations. At the beginning of the covenant, on that very day the two witnesses begin their 1,260 days of testamony. They are also candlesticks before the Lord on earth. The seven candlesticks (the Church) are replaced by these two witnesses. Why? Because the Rapture occurs before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

     I can go on and on but i'll wait to see what your answer to this is first.
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2003, 05:02:31 PM »

Old Timer,

Request  FREE copy of the my book, and I'll send it.

Request it at kjvbiblejax@aol.com

Yours,

Michael
Michael, I tried to email you at this address but the email bounced.
Art
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2003, 12:43:08 AM »

In response to Paul2' comments,

Paul, yes the two prophets of Rvelation 11:3-13 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation and be raptured in chapter 11, along with the Church, for that's the same chapter as the "last trump" of I Cor 15:51 which occurs in Revelation 11:15.

Notice also in Rev 10:7, that THEN, the mystery of God is finished, the Church age will be over, an only then is the Church gone, not before the "last trump." Paul says in Ephesians, "I show you a mystery...I speak concerning Christ and the Church." Rev 10:7 uses  the same word relating to last trump, MYSTERY. So the "mystery" is revealed about the Rapture, as God shows and declares to His servants the prophets. Rev 10:7

We must go by what te Apostle Paul said, not what we have been previously "taught."

We will always be looking for the coming of our Lord, just as the early Church was, but Paul clarified certain things MUST come first, before the day of Christ when we are taken up with Him. A falling away, and the man of sin be revealed, which has not happened yet.

Thus the Rapture cannot be tonight, tommrrow, next year, or the year after. Only 3 1/2 yrs after the triblation begins, can we expect His return. Either way, we are still looking and awaiting His coming. Just because John says, "Lord come" and Jesus says "I come quickly," does not mean He's coming or could come tonight. 2000 years is hardly "quickly." The scriptures that say we ae looking and waiting for our Lord's return is not evidence He can come tonight, especially if we takes these scriptures and line them up with the dozens of other verses, that says WHEN He will come such as "last trump" and seeing the saints, churches, bride, and those in white in the book of Revelation. Revelation is for the "churches" Jesus said in Rev 22:16.

Titus 2:13 does say we are "looking for His Coming." Many scriptures do. But an immeniant return at any moment is not what Paul taught, nor anyone else. Read II Thess 2:1-4. I might be "looking for a wife" or"looking to be rich" but that does not mean I might be rich tonight. Thus, still no evidence Paul, for a pre-tribulation rapture. That' why I preented the challenge for one verse to prove a pre-trib rapture, because there is none. But there are hundreds of verses to prove the Chruch will be in tribulation in the end-time.

Also Acts 3:19-21 says Jesus cannot return "UNTIL" resitition and Restoration comes first, along with dozens of other prophecies, like the latter rain, the spirit of Elijah, the "last trump" of the seven trumpets, and more.


Yours,

Michael
« Last Edit: May 09, 2003, 01:03:58 AM by prophecyjax1 » Logged
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