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Author Topic: Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture  (Read 22118 times)
prophecyjax1
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2003, 09:44:36 AM »

Paul and Early,

With respect, I know your trying to justfy a pre-trib Rapture, and I respect your efforts.

But we cannot escpae the fact that Paul says it occurs at "the last trump." (I Corinthians 15:52.) This trump occurs in Rev 11:15 and if you read Rev 10:7, the "Mystey" of Christ and the Church is finished.

If you study the history of a pre-trib rapture, you'll be shocked.

In 1830, a fifteen-year Catholic old girl, named Margaret Macdonald, had a dream of the Church being taken out of the world before the tribulation. She lived in Port Glashow, Scotland. Her dream was written down on paper, and soon spread in the community. In 1831 a Presbyterian minister, named Edward Irving, had picked up on the view, and began teaching the Church was to be raptured before the tribulation. This view began to gain popularity. Mr. Irving was actually kicked out of his denomination for this teaching, and later started what is today known as “The Catholic Apostolic Church.”

As the view gained popularity, another man named John Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren, began this teaching and it spread even to a further degree. Now Mr. Darby had a follower named Cyrus Scofield, who is the main influence for the pre-tribulation view to enter the United States. In 1909 Scofield included, the pre-tribulation view in his reference Bible. As a result, many denominations in the United States began teaching a pre-tribulation Rapture.

Mr. MacPherson’s book created such a stir, as to the origin, that many ministers wrote him, and declared their surprise as to the true origins. One seminary president wrote him as follows, “It really is a most interesting historical fact to observe that the pre-tribulation rapture originated in this astonishing way.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up” pp 93-94, Omega Publications)

An Oregon Bible teacher wrote Mr. MacPhearson, as follows, “You will be interested to know that many years ago I had dinner in Seattle with a then middle-aged couple who were members of the Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingite sect). At the time I believed in pre-trism and told them so. They asked me where I got the doctrine. I told them ‘from the Bible’. They said, ‘No you didn’t’ and went on to tell me how it was not in the Bible but revealed to their church through one of their prophetesses around the middle of the 19th century.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up”, pp 93-94, Omega Publications).

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view.

With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Please, let "God be true, and every man a liar." Romans 3:4

Yours,

Michael
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2003, 09:48:52 AM »

Listen to pre-trib teacher Hilton Sutton as follows,

His book called the "Rapture" was an argument for a pre-tribulation Rapture, and in his book, he made the following statement, to our surprise.

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. But by studying the whole of God’s Word, you will discover that the rapture is a certainty, and it very definitely comes before the tribulation period.”

If we study the whole of God’s Word, and cannot find one verse to support a pre-tribulation rapture, how can a conclusion be made for one? What are we going to do with the hundreds of scriptures that do show us going onto the tribulation? Should not we allow the scriptures to persuade our own pre-suppositions? We must hold to Bible evidence, and weigh the pre-tribulation Rapture on the scales of God’s Word. We believe once it is weighed, the pre-tribulation Rapture, will be found wanting.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

Bible Evidence vs Tradition

Yours,

Michael
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2003, 11:40:45 AM »

For those who got on Chad for His earthquake prophecy, you might be instrested to know the pre-tribulation rapture comes from a prophecy of a 15 yr old catholic girl in Scotland in 1830.
She had a vision of the Curch being raptured before the tribulation, and it's proven documented fact, that this is the true origin of a pre-trib theory.

So before you jump on Chad for his earthquake prophecy, you might consider your pre-trib beliefs comes from a false prophecy also. How ironic indeed.

Yours,

Michael
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2003, 11:47:48 AM »

Dear Friends,

Don't despair. God will be with us during the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation according to the following prophecy.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Clearly a prophetic Word for our comfort! God assures us when we are in the tribulation, “even in the latter days,” that He will be with us and never forsake us. As the song goes, “there is peace in the midst of the storm.”

Score:

Bible Evidence    47
Pre-Trb theory    0

Yours,

Michael
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2003, 12:47:15 PM »

    First let me say I'm not trying to convince you personally. You are making bold statements that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is False. I disagree and will explain why only it will take a serious amount of effort to address all the issues. To solve a mystery you must be come a detective and search ALL the evidence. Your theory sounds easy enough in the beginning but when all evidence is considered it fails. Most people don't want to study deep enough to examine all the evidence required to correctly solve the mystery of the Rapture.

    I'll start laying out evidence for the benifit of those who read this to show that your not unchallenged as you claim.

    Its to bad the site crashed for much of this frame work was already layed out once but what can you do?

   Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

                                           The Pre-Trib View by Paul2
         

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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2003, 01:14:33 PM »

Paul,

Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture, the Angel was talking to John.

     WRONG!  

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The first voice he heard as it were a trumpet was who?

Revelation 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
   11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
   12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
   13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
   14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
   15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
   16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
   17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
   18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
   19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
   20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    The voice John first heard like a trumpet was the Lord Jesus Christ.

   
Paul,

Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture, the Angel was talking to John.

   WRONG

    You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.

     How you can say an angel was speaking to him when chapter 1 makes it clear as day he was speaking with Jesus, who was the first voice like a trumpet mind you that he heard.

    Are we having fun yet?

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2


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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2003, 02:27:09 PM »

Hey,  Address the Issue of tradition or go home.
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Paul2
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2003, 02:47:32 PM »

      Prophecyjax1

     I'll be the score keeper. You have been proven wrong once so far. You claimed John was speaking to an angel in Revelation 4:1 and your wrong. It was Jesus and the proof is in the last post I sent. (Rev. 1:10)

               PROVED WRONG BY SCRIPTURE

         Prophecyjax1- 1                        Paul2-0

    You were proved clearly wrong by scripture. Theres no doubt about. Theres no chance we both could be right. Jesus was speaking to John in Revelation 4:1.

    You've been proved wrong once. Stop the presses on the book! You'll be proved wrong again and again as we go deeper.

    When all the details are finished being examined your theory crumbles like a cookie.

      I'm winning so far. You been clearly proved wrong by scripture once so far. No doubt on the subject.

                                      The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2003, 05:52:48 PM »

Hi prophecyjax1,

You said that the antichrist will be revealed in the mid-trib. Yet Daniel 9:27 says that he will make a peace pact with Israel at the beginning of the Trib. Obviously the antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the trib and not at mid-trib like you stated. God bless.
 

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2003, 07:19:45 PM »

            The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    It is imporant to understand the time period of the ministry of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. At the time of their ministry (1,260 days) they are the chosen representatives for God on earth. Lets look at the scripture and then I'll explain the importance.

Revelation 11:3   "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

     The seven candlesticks mentioned in Revelation 1 are now not on earth but have been replaced by the two witnesses who are the only two people on earth with the Holy Spirit at the time of their ministry. Old testament Saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but "led" by the Holy Spirit externally. The Only group indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Church. The Holy Spirit started indwelling man at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. The reason the word church is not found between chapter 3 and 22 is because the church has left earth and been Raptured. Believers during this period are called "Saints", which was also used to describe believers of old testament times. The church believers are also called Saints but theres a big difference between old testament Saints and Church Saints. Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, old testament Saints were not. Saints of the Tribulation will not be Holy Spirit indwelt like the Church but will be led by the Holy Spirit as in old testament times. Not all Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thats what makes the Church unique.

     The reason the two witnesses are called lampstands is they are the only two on earth at the time of their ministry indwelt by the Holy Spirit. These are God's Ambassadors during the first half of the Tribulation or Daniels 70th week.

    Their ministry starts on the first day of Daniel's 70th week and continues until the mid week, 1260 days later. They begin their ministry on the very day the 7 year treaty with Israel is signed by Antichrist.

    How do I know that? Because Antichrist kills them at the middle of the 70th week.

 Revelation 11:7  "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

     The two witnesses are divinely protected during their Ministry. They have power and control over rain and plagues.
Anyone who tries to harm them bursts into flames. They are unstoppable until finished with their ministry of 1260 days.

    On the last day of their ministry 1260 days after the treaty between Israel and Antichrist is signed the Antichrist goes to the rebuilt Temple and is fatally wounded and healed. Antichrist now starts his 42 month reign. He declares himself God and demands worship. His first "ACT" as self proclaimed God is to kill the two witnesses. No one else had been able to silence the two prophets before but Antichrist kills them to try to deceive people into believing he is God.

     People rejoice and love the Antichrist because he killed the two witnesses and people send gifts to each other, sort of an "AntiChristmas." The party is short lived because the bodies of the two prophets are refused burial and lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 Days until they are brought back to life, rise up an accend in full view of people just like Jesus.

    Antichrist ends the ministry of the two witnesses at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The two witnesses ministry of 1,260 days can not be during the reign of Antichrists 42 months. Antichrist could not claim to be all powerful God during the two witnesses ministry. If he tried to do so people would question why he was powerless to stop them. He does stop them on the Last day of their Ministry which also happens to be the first day of Antichrists 42 month reign or 1,260 days which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

     What does all this mean? The Church is Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins. God sends two witnesses to be His Prophets during the first half of the 70th week. At the middle of the week Antichrist kills them ending their ministry and begins His 1,260 days or 42 months of reign.

     At the middle of Daniel's 70th week God seals the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are led to the dessert in a place God perpared for them for 1260 days. We'll get into detail on this last part in do time.

                                            The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2003, 08:02:29 PM »

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

     Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

     The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

      Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

     I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Him. The Church should be expecting Christ now!
He could come at any minute. We are in the way of the treaty. Daniel's 70th week can not begin until were gone. We need to get busy for DAYS ARE SHORT. Are you ready to be Raptured or would it overtake you as a thief in the night?

    Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

    Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

    I'll tackle the 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 issues on the next post.

                                             The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2  
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2003, 09:19:35 PM »

     Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


     The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

     for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

     Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
   7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


     Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

     The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9   "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
   10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"


     Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

     Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
   



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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2003, 09:42:13 PM »

    For the record, I was not instructed by a 15 year old Catholic Girl from Scotland. The Holy Spirit is my guide. The Holy Spirit reveals truth and lies to me. I use the Bible as final authority, I do not trust men but I test them against the Bible.

                                                       Paul2
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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2003, 07:08:09 PM »

Just to set the record straight on Margaret McDonald -
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

prophecyjax1,
I don;t believe you have yet distinquished between the last trump by the seventh angel in Rev. and the trump or God in Thessalonians. You are hanging your mid-trib position on these trumpets and they are not the same!!!
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2003, 01:36:04 AM »

My Friends,

The Apostle Paul clearly was telling the Thessalonians NOT to expect Christ to come any day. How much clearer can it be? I understand the scriptures about the church age, and your point of view, but we MUST palce those verses with all the other verses to conclude anything. "Precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a verse, and there a verse." Read Isaiah 28:9-13 on proper dividing the Word of God. I respect your efforts, but you are totally not listening to Paul.

The score is not you against me, or me against you, but Scripture vs tradition.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul says with “the trump of God,” and also clarifies which trumpet it is, as we will see. The dead in Christ will rise first, then all believers alive on earth, will be caught up in the clouds with the Lord. This is Christ’s secret appearing as some call it. This is when Christ comes for His saints, and 3˝ years later Christ will come with His saints! We should clearly see by now, the difference.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We will return WITH Jesus at His second coming, clothed in fine linen, clean and white. As we discussed preciously, those in white are the saints that came out of tribulation. The Apostle Paul mentioned in I Thessalonians 5:2, that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Some use this as a presumption, claiming for this to be valid; that the Lord can appear at any moment. However, as we are beginning to see, and have learned prior, that we must take this verse and combine it with dozens of other verses, to conclude that. We believe the Thessalonian Church may have believed this, and when Paul wrote them back in II Thessalonians, he clarified the mis-conception. When Paul wrote them back, he revealed to them that certain things must happen first, BEFORE the Rapture, as we will show. Let’s look at II Thessalonians 2:1-3 and dissect each verse for clarity.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It’s very clear here, that Paul starts out by talking about the Rapture, the coming of the Lord, when we are gathered together in the clouds to meet him.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He goes on to say, not to be shaken, troubled, or confused thinking the day of Christ is at hand. Evidently there was word of an imminent return of Christ, either by his previous letter, or by others.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3˝ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul reveals to us the timing of the revealing! The Antichrist is “revealed” once he sets himself up as God, showing himself to be God. Daniel 9:27 is a little more specific about the true timing of this event.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As we all may or may not know, the prophetic week of Daniel is the seven-year tribulation period, and in the “midst” or middle of this period, this is the timing of the unveiling of this man of sin. Once this occurs, the Rapture may take place. So we can clearly see the Church is going at least 3˝ years into the seven-year period. The Antichrist will stop all temple sacrifices, and actually set himself up in the Jewish Temple and claim to be God. Once this occurs, as another evidence that it’s in the middle of the seven-year period, Daniel 12:11 reveals more specifics about timing.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel says once the Antichrist is revealed, there will be 3˝ years left. Excellent clarity and understand is shown, by using scripture upon scripture to “reveal” to us the timing of the Rapture. Daniel 12:11 also shows us that the “revealing” has to be in the middle of the seven-year tribulation, for 1290 days will be left in time. This is clearly the last 3˝ years. Now with Paul telling us the Rapture cannot take place “UNTIL” the Antichrist is “Revealed,” it’s obvious, that the Church, and the Rapture is mid-tribulation. Now let’s continue with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Many claim that the “he” mentioned in verse 7 is the Church, and that once the Church is raptured, then the Antichrist will be revealed. But does this line up with Daniel 9:27 and the letter to the Thessalonians we just discussed? We will let you decide. Even if this was the Church, and we are to agree with this argument, the fact that the Antichrist is not “revealed” until the middle of the seven-year period, still leaves the Church well into the tribulation. So this is a weak argument, which contradicts itself. Paul was not saying two different things in verses 3 and 8. In verse 3, Paul says the man of sin must be revealed first, then the Rapture can come. But many who hold to a pre-tribulation view, claim that verses 7-8 is the Church being raptured, and when the “HE” is removed, the man of sin will then be revealed. This is a contradiction, and thus the “HE” cannot be the Church.  Also, as we previously discussed, the Church is generally referred to as a “she,” rather than a “he.” The “He” could just be God Himself, or His Angels, and He will remove His restraining power when He wishes. Regardless of who the “HE” is, we cannot ignore the fact that the Antichrist’s revealing is in the middle of the seven-year period. You see now, why PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT? Many scriptures thus far have been shown as evidence that the Church will be raptured well into the tribulation, without yet truly revealing the most striking evidence for such a case.

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