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Author Topic: Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture  (Read 21507 times)
prophecyjax1
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« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2003, 10:30:43 PM »

Dear friends,

Statistically, in the Church today, 76% of believers believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture, 6% believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture, and 9% believe in a post-tribulation Rapture. The remaining percentage either does not believe in the Rapture, or in something else, only the Lord knowing what that may be. So if you have switched your view, or at least raised an eyebrow, you are in the minority today. But before 1830, you would have been in the majority. Ask yourself an honest question. Does warning God’s people about these things to come, and preparing them, align with all the prophets in history and their warnings? Or does an easy escape from any hardships sound like a more familiar tune? From Genesis to Revelation, the “minority” received God’s warnings, whereas the “majority,” are historically seen in scripture as not wanting such warnings being told to them. The majority expected something else when Christ came, but the minority listened, believed, and followed.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

For those who's pre-determined, pre-suppositions make them cling to a pre-trib theory, listen to one of your own pre-trib teachers, Hilton Sutton. Quote.....

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. (Rapture, Harrison House p. 55).

To hold a pre-trib vire is presumptious indeed.

Score:

Bible Evidence  750
pre-trib theory     0

Yours,
Michael

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« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2003, 05:49:51 AM »

I repeat my question, asked at the top of Page 7 and the middle of page 7:

prophecyjax1,  How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2003, 09:10:38 AM »

I used to use that thought also. Look....

I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, back in 1986, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for myself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows me.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

I'm trying to help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come.  Holy Scripture must rest as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy, or what we want to believe.

In Mark 13:35, Jesus said we don’t know when He will come, whether at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning. Our Lord may be referring to a specific time of day here, rather than a time within the seven-year night. No one can pinpoint the exact timing of the Rapture, nor ever will be able to. We do know that from Daniel 12:11, that once the Antichrist sets himself up as God in the temple, there will be 1290 days left until the end. But this has nothing to do with the Rapture or it’s timing. We also don’t know the exact day the tribulation will start, there will be no announcement made. We will one day realize we are in it, especially when God’s two prophets arise. Another indication will be Russia’s invasion of Israel in Ezekiel chapters 38-39, which will be the next earth-shaking event. But even then, we still cannot pick an exact day. The very day Russia invades Israel may not necessary be the exact day the seven-year tribulation period begins. So the “exact” day in the “midst,” or “middle” of the seven-year tribulation cannot be pin pointed. The only exact day is the very end of things according to Daniel 12:11, the 1290 days, but the Church will not need concern herself with that. However, with that said, we do know the Rapture is to occur in the middle of the tribulation, at the last trumpet of Revelation 11:15.

With all this Biblical evidence, we need to ask ourselves, are we going to take the scriptures, precept upon precept, line upon line, verse upon verse, or are we going to believe traditional thought? We will let you decide.


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« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2003, 09:17:55 AM »

Hi Jax
Do you know how long the DAY OF THE LORD will last?
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« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2003, 07:33:41 PM »

Wreck,

The day of the Lord will be during the last 3 1/2 yrs of God's Wrath, towards the end, near the second coming of Christ.

The judgments of God will be the first 3 1/2 yrs and God's wrath the lt 3 1/2 ys.

Mike

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« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2003, 09:25:45 PM »

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a clear distinction between these two events, for at this trumpet, “all the tribes of the earth shall see Jesus and mourn, and see Him coming.” At the Rapture, only the Bride will see Him and be taken up into the clouds to meet Him in the air. There is clearly a difference in these trumpets. We need to make sure we look at the context of these verses, and use scripture upon scripture. Thus we conclude that this, “great sounding of a trumpet,” or “great trump,” is not the same as the “last trump” of Revelation 11:15, where the Rapture takes place. Remember Zechariah 12:9-14? …”And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him…..In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem….and all the land shall mourn, every family apart….all the families that remain, every family apart…” This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:30, when He says, “…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn..” This great trumpet is not the last trumpet of the Rapture, but rather the trumpet to be blown to announce Christ’s arrival upon the earth. Also notice Matthew 24:31, that when this trumpet blows, God’s elect will be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other,” not the gathering of saints from the earth in the Rapture.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall gotcha76 from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

At the “great trumpet,” many Jews that would have been killed by the Antichrist will be saved and delivered just in time. What a beautiful revelation the scriptures give us!

Now we are ready to put the final nail in the coffin, for a pre-tribulation Rapture. Take special note of the following verses.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Notice that when the seventh Angel is about to blow the last trumpet, that it says, “the mystery of God should be finished.” This mystery Paul was talking about is the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Bride. It’s also referring to the Church age we are now living in. Once the last trumpet sounds, the Bride will be raptured, and the Church age, as we know it, will be over. Remember I Corinthians 15:50-52? Before Paul tells us the Rapture is at the “last trump,” he says, “Behold, I shew you a mystery..” The same word “mystery” is used in conjunction with Revelation 10:7, and the last trump. Here’s another golden nugget to add to this “mystery.”

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The word “mystery “ is used again. When we place all the scriptures together on this great subject, a clearer picture can be seen. Once the trump sounds in Revelation 11:15, the mystery of God will be finished, and the Church age as we know it will cease. The only way this mystery can be finished, is if the Church is now no-where to be found.
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« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2003, 12:26:42 AM »


jax quote...
Quote
For those who think Revelation is in perect chronogical order, think again.
The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will.

 I haven't heard that mush double talk since Fonzie took the Jablonski twins to the drive-in double feature!

 Are you honestly trying to tell us that the scene depicted in Rev 4:1-11 comes after the Tribulation which is described in Rev 6? If that's true then I guess Christ could possibly return with His saints as shown in Rev 19:11 before the tribulation also...with your mind-set any order is possible.
No Michael my friend...you are dead wrong here. You can't fudge this by saying... "The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will."

 jax...you used the following statement to further your incorrect argument...

Quote
This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view. Prior to 1830, a pre-tribulation rapture was not preached, teached, or even believed.  The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts.

Then after I corrected you...you go onto make the following statement which contradicts the above statement...

Quote
I'm trying to help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come.  Holy Scripture must rest as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy, or what we want to believe.

First you assert that pre-trib was not taught before 1830
with the following strong unmistakable language...

 
Quote
The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts.

 Then, after I gave you several early examples of pre-trib teachings, you back-track and make the following statement...

Quote
So if you have switched your view, or at least raised an eyebrow, you are in the minority today. But before 1830, you would have been in the majority.

I'm truly sorry Michael, but you have lost credibility.
 
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« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2003, 04:56:50 AM »

PJ1

When does the 7 day Marriage supper of the Lamb occur?


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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2003, 12:20:23 PM »

Bronzesnake,

Your not listening very well. I never said Rev 4 is after he tribulation, your mid-quoting me. In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said.

Also I quoted sources, writings, pages, names, volumes, of over 30 Godly men before 1830 who rejected a pre-trib theory. Then you do the same, yet without specific references to pages, titles, dates, etc. Once again, in open debate, you lose points. You even used several of th same authors who were quoted as rejecting a pre-trib, but mine had the SOURCES, yours did not. I gave actualy sources from where you can go to a library and read the actualy writings, not some book from a guy mis-quoting them.

I suggest if you debate this topic, to be accurate in what you quote me as saying, and try listening a litter better, or even bother reading my posts, then you may remember exactly what I said.

With all due respect, I think your doing a good job in attempting your pre-trib theory, but the last trump in Rev 11:15, and the fact that Paul said Antichist must first be revealed before the Rapture, cannot be avoided.

Back to te chronology of Revelation, as I said, most of it is in order, however severeal references in Chapter 6 take you ahead to further chapters at a glance. Example, Revelation 9:13-16 looses four angels which are prepared to do something, that literally does not happen till Rev 16:12-16. So understand when I'm saying it's not in perfect chronological order, it's because some events transpire in several different chapters, such as the river Euphrates, just mentioned. But for you to take this example and then claim I said Rev 4:1-12 is after the tribulation is a "mis-quote" and you would lose an open debate over such things.

Soon, you will believe mid-trib, along with the rest of the Church, once you realize we are in the tribulation. Then the issue of credibility will arise. I suggest you warn and teach God's people as the Apostle Paul did in II Thess 2:1-10. I say to you as Paul told the Thessaonians, "Let no man deceive you." You need to get un-taught first, realize the error of this fable, then you can be taught again. Nothing personal, just trying to help you get this right, that's all.

Bu I respect your efforts, but you have not convinencely still not shown, one verse that specifically shows we will escape te entire 7 yr tribulation. Revelation 3:10, Luke 21:36, and I Thess 5:9, promise deliverance frm God's wrath, the last 3 1/2 yrs, but not His judgments the first 3 1/2 yrs. The escape Jesus is refering to is the same "escape" in I Corinthians 10:13, an escape we will be able to endure, so we go "through it."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

"But will WITH the temptation, make away of escape." Same escape and temptation of Rev 3:10 and Luke 21:36, same greek words used.

Your challenge to show one verse showing we will escape the entire 7 yr trib, has not ben met, because there is not such a verse in the entire Bible. We have shown hundrends of verses of evidence to show the Church in the tribulation.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence     850
pre-trib theory       0
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 12:26:01 PM by prophecyjax1 » Logged
Bronzesnake
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« Reply #114 on: May 20, 2003, 02:22:57 PM »

Quote
Also I quoted sources, writings, pages, names, volumes, of over 30 Godly men before 1830 who rejected a pre-trib theory. Then you do the same, yet without specific references to pages, titles, dates, etc.


Early Pre Trib Teaching.


Didache Title- A Church manual from A.D. 110Date

Hippolytus'( A.D. 170 to 236)Date Treatise On The Christ And The Antichrist Title- Section 66Reference

The Epistles Of CyprianTitle (A.D. 200 to 258)Date epistle 55 chapter 7Reference

Victorinus, Bishop of Petau ( A.D. 240 till his martyrdom in A.D. 304)Date Commentary On The Apocalypse.Title

The Shepherd Of HermesTitle (A.D. 130)Date

Lactantius' ( second century A.D. )Date Commentary On The ApocalypseTitle

The Epistle Of BarnabasTitle ( A.D. 100)Date

The First Epistle Of ClementTitle ( A.D. 30 to A.D. 100)Date

Peter Jurieu's Approaching Deliverance Of The ChurchTitle ( A.D. 1687)Date

Quote
Your not listening very well. I never said Rev 4 is after he tribulation, your mid-quoting me. In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said.

 so...Rev 4 is before the tribulation?
"In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said." LOL!!! Are you for real? You are really obsessed with keeping score aren't you? Is this all some kind of a game with you? If we were in an "open debate" scoreing would be done by an independant judge...not one of the participants. LOL!!! sorry but that is just way to comical.

Quote
Back to te chronology of Revelation, as I said, most of it is in order, however severeal references in Chapter 6 take you ahead to further chapters at a glance. Example, Revelation 9:13-16 looses four angels which are prepared to do something, that literally does not happen till Rev 16:12-16. So understand when I'm saying it's not in perfect chronological order, it's because some events transpire in several different chapters, such as the river Euphrates, just mentioned. But for you to take this example and then claim I said Rev 4:1-12 is after the tribulation is a "mis-quote" and you would lose an open debate over such things.

 Are you purposefully trying to deceive, or are you just really confused?
Your argument about the chronology of Revelation is a bit slippery.
 You point out that certain events depicted in early chapters of Revelation don't actually occur until further on in the book. You are of course correct, but they still happen in the exact chronological order in which they are presented.
Look, none of Revelation has happened yet. All of Revelation at this point in time is a vision of future events, but they will happen in the exact order that Jesus laid them out for us.

So when Jesus depicts a future event in which the elders are casting their crowns at the feet of His throne beforethe tribulation is described, then we must conclude this is the correct chronological order that these events will occur.

 As I already pointed out...useing your logic, I could take any verse out of Revelation and move it around to suit my needs.
That is exactly why Jesus put things in order for us.

 
Quote
Your challenge to show one verse showing we will escape the entire 7 yr trib, has not ben met, because there is not such a verse in the entire Bible. We have shown hundrends of verses of evidence to show the Church in the tribulation.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence    850
pre-trib theory      0

 Your arrogance and childish score keeping speak volumes about where your heart is at.
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« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2003, 04:32:40 PM »

Hi Jax
Yea, the Day of the Lord will last but 1 year (according to scripture) There is only 1 bride.

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. [9] They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. [28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

Its on the Day of the Lord that bride will be let out the closet.
Theres the last trumpet to. The sun and moon darkened and so on and so on.....
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« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2003, 05:28:09 PM »

Bronze,

Where did you say the last trumpet is specifically?

Would you like to have an open debate sometime? Me an an associate, will debate yourself and one other associate on video, with moderator, timed responses, and good honest Christian debate. It will last two hours, with one hour each for responses. I should enjoy such an event, seeing anyone try to prove from scripture a pre-tribulation theory, especially knowing context, proper interpratation, and historical evidence.

Did you even request my book? Perhaps you might learn something, I'm sure your not beyond the level of learning anything are you?

Anyhow, enough said, and yes I'm scorekeeping, because the Word of God wins over fabels. The score is not for me, but for the truth. Presumption, pre-suppositions, and pre-determonined positions are not good, if scripture does not back them. And scripture twisting, stretching a verse or two has to be done to justify fables and theories.

Example----The crowns the Lord gives the elders, has absoulety nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church. It's such a silly reference, I just may add it to my book.

Anyhow, it seems nothing in scripture will persuade you, but one thing will. And that's the day you realize we ain't flying away
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« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2003, 07:30:30 PM »

Dear Michael:

How I pray Jesus comes SOON!

Marc
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« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2003, 08:38:59 PM »

So Jax and Bronze
The last trumpet is blowing in Joel 2, on the Day of the Lord. The brides there, the bridegrooms there. Does it say clarinet in youse guys bible. Only kiddin kinda. You sun day go to meetin guys are gettin pretty rowdy. Was Joel 2 discussed already. And if it was, why anymore discussion.
Aint no mid, aint no pre, alls ya get is what ya see.
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« Reply #119 on: May 21, 2003, 03:49:12 AM »

jax quote...
Quote
Did you even request my book? Perhaps you might learn something, I'm sure your not beyond the level of learning anything are you?

 This is what it's really all about with you jax..."my book"
No, I didn't request "your book" I already have plenty of kleenex here at home, thanks anyway.

 jax quote...
Quote
Would you like to have an open debate sometime? Me an an associate, will debate yourself and one other associate on video, with moderator, timed responses, and good honest Christian debate. It will last two hours, with one hour each for responses. I should enjoy such an event, seeing anyone try to prove from scripture a pre-tribulation theory, especially knowing context, proper interpratation, and historical evidence.

 LOL!!! Oh brother! are you for real? That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages! Thanks for the laughs brother jax...no, really! You're cracking me up!...I'm going to have to start calling you 'CrackerJax!'
 Grin
Are you not content with looking arrogant and foolish on a public web site?
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