Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture

[OldTimer]

Paul2, Bronzesnake, Early 57, I think to go on with this is futile. prophecyjax1 keeps asking the same questions and keeps putting forth the same arguments. In my recent lengthy post I responded to both his favorite verses in 1 Cor. and 2 Thes., yet he did not reply to my comments but just asks the questions again. Now if he will not accept my comment that is fine but I would think he could at least point out where I am wrong.

Of course, he as been clever and put us all on the defensive but seems to ignore our questions. For example, the crowns cast by the Elders.

prophecyjax1, one last question and then I am abandoning this thread: How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

[Bronzesnake]

Paul2, Bronzesnake, Early 57, I think to go on with this is futile. prophecyjax1 keeps asking the same questions and keeps putting forth the same arguments. In my recent lengthy post I responded to both his favorite verses in 1 Cor. and 2 Thes., yet he did not reply to my comments but just asks the questions again. Now if he will not accept my comment that is fine but I would think he could at least point out where I am wrong.

Of course, he as been clever and put us all on the defensive but seems to ignore our questions. For example, the crowns cast by the Elders.

prophecyjax1, one last question and then I am abandoning this thread: How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

Hello oldtimer.

Yes, I agree with you prophecyjax1 does ignore the tough questions. I think it would break his heart to have to start that book of his all over!
 Just how old of an old timer are ya...oldtimer?

[OldTimer]

Bronzesnake, you ask, "Just how old of an old timer are ya...oldtimer? "

71, and the 2nd law of thrmodynamics is taking over

[Bronzesnake]

Bronzesnake, you ask, "Just how old of an old timer are ya...oldtimer? "

71, and the 2nd law of thrmodynamics is taking over

 That is funny!! I just lost half a mouthful of pop out of my nose!

[Paul2]

Prophecyjax1,

    My computer keeps crashing, it took a while to fix

   Who was Calling John to Heaven in Revelation 4:1?

   Hint: see Revelation 1:10

  You said before it was an angel and you were proven wrong by scripture. It was Jesus. Are you sticking with the wrong answer?

   I'll take "no reply" to be a "yes, I'm sticking with the wrong answer of an angel.

     You never fooled me but the saying still applies:

  " Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"

                                                    Paul2

[prophecyjax1]

Paul,

It was Jesus, but this is clearly not the Rapture, or the last trump of I Cor 15:52, which actually blows in Rev 11:15.

Some argue as you do, that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four, and thus we will not be here. Remember Paul, if we don’t take all scripture relating to any subject, we will not understand! Well, you cannot just take a few verses and come to a conclusion. We are going to show you, that the Church is mentioned in Revelation, and displayed frequently throughout the book. We know that saints come from the Church, from I Corinthians 1:1-2. Just because the word “Church” is not mentioned does not mean the Church will not be there. God is not even mentioned in the books of Esther and Song of Solomon. Does that mean God is not there, or in action in those books? Of coarse not. The Church is not mentioned as “the Church” in the books of Titus, II Timothy, II Peter, I John, II John, and Jude, but we know it’s written to the Church. So to say the Church is not mentioned after revelation chapter four, is a very weak argument. Besides, the Church IS spoken of after chapter four.

Just becase Jesus in Revelation 4:1 where He says to John, “Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be hereafter,” does not justify claiming this is the Rapture. This also is a very weak argument, for clearly the angel or Jesus was talking specifically to John, not to the entire Church, which Jesus Himself applies to the book of Revelation. It’s quite amazing how pre-suppositions, to a pre-tribulation Rapture, can make some folks take a few scriptures clearly referring to something else, and attempt to apply them to justify a pre-trib Rapture. Despite what we WANT to believe, Jesus applies the book of Revelation to the Churches.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

JESUS---tells us these things in Revelation re for "the Churches."

Jesus is coming alright----------at the last trump in Revelation 11:15. This "mystery" is revealed. Rev 10:7

Mike

[Wreck N Sow]

Hi Jax
I was on this board a while back. Used a different name then.Can you tell me how many brides of Christ there are? Hope ya dont mind me using only the last part of your name.I dont mind if ya just call me a wreck.

[prophecyjax1]

Wreck,

There is only one Bride of Christ, which comes forth out of the Church. Those left behind, are likened unto the foolish virgins that were not prepared. Read Revelation chapter 12.

The whole entire Church doe not go in the Rapture, only the Bride. Just as Adam (which is a type of the Church) was asleep and a bride came forth out of his rib, so is the Bride of Christ, a holy rib, remnant is Raptured from out of the Church.

Mke

[OldTimer]

I repeat my question, asked at the top of Page 7:

prophecyjax1,  How do you reconcile your mid-triib theory that postulates the Rapture in the middle of the seven-year tribulation period (when even the dullest should be expecting His return) as that is in complete contradiction to the many statements of Christ that He will come when least suspected, unawares, as “a thief in the night”, when folks are going about their life as normal? We are to "watch" and be ready expecting Him at any moment. You say it can't happen for at least 3 1/2 years from today assuming the tribulations starts now. Please explain this major flaw in your position?

[Bronzesnake]

pj...I repeat my question also...
Where did the elders get their crowns?
Ignoring the tough questions won't make you correct.

[prophecyjax1]

Bronze & Elder,

Suppose they got their crowns from the Lord. Irrevlant to the coming of Christ. Sorry to disappoint you, but historical facts show nobody expected Christ to come "any day" before 1830.

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view. Prior to 1830, a pre-tribulation rapture was not preached, teached, or even believed.  The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute, also verified the historical content to be accurate, and changed his view (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

Billy Graham said, “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).

Leonard Ravenhill, a once famous Christian author with volumes about revival, prayer, and separation, wrote, “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture--- perhaps today---to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom had no Bible, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898) quotes, “The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin….shall have been revealed..”  (Mrs. Mueller’s Missionary Tours and Labours, p.148).

John Foxe (1516-1587) quotes, “..that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church…to disturb the whole Church of Christ..” (Acts and Monuments, I).

John Knox (1515-1572) quotes, “…the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many years before they come to passé….to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon” (The Historie of the Reformatioun…, I, p. 76).

Martin Luther (1483-1546), the great reformer, quotes, “The book of Revelation is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church…” (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

John Wycliffe (1320-1382) quotes, “Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii” (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D., p. 155).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274) quotes, “…because of future perils (for the Church) in the times of Antichrist…” (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) quotes, “There remains only one thing—that demon of noonday (Antichrist) should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ…” (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Augustine (673-735) quotes, “But he who reads this passage (Daniel 12), even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church…” (The City of God, XX, 23).

Jerome (340-420) quotes, “I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before” (Epistle 21).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) quotes, “Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear…” (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Hippolytus (160-240) quotes, “…the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Irenaeus (140-202) quotes, “And they (the ten kings who shall arise) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight” (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Justin Martyr (100-168) quotes, “The man of apostasy (Antichrist), who speaks strange things against the most high, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians…” (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).

Hermas (40-140), who the Apostle Paul mentions in Romans 16:14, quotes, “Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire (of the great tribulation that is yet to come), will be purified by means of it….Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints…” (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Barnabus (40-100) quotes, “The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches…for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger….That the Black One (Antichrist) may find no means of entrance…” (Epistle of Barnabus, 4).

Apostle Paul (In 54AD) quotes, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” (Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians II, 2:3).

According to history, this author and work proclaiming a mid-tribulation rapture, feels he is in good company. With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Mike

[Drake]

Mike , Where did you get that information.
I would like to read more about them.

Not that I believe in a Mid-Trib rapture. As I have told you I believe in a Pre-Wrath rapture.

[Early57]

Mike PJ1

I double dog dare you to answer the tough questions that have been posed that you have over, and over again, ignored.

You cannot ignore the Double dog dare. or you are not a man

[Bronzesnake]

Jax quote...

Bronze & Elder,

Suppose they got their crowns from the Lord. Irrevlant to the coming of Christ. Sorry to disappoint you, but historical facts show nobody expected Christ to come "any day" before 1830.

 OK you just conceded. The elders got their crowns from Christ. Therefore the Judgement seat has happened...all believers must be present for the Judgement seat. The elders threw their crowns at Christ's feet in Rev 4...Revelation is in chronological order...The tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6. We are raptured before the tribulation.

 Don't tell me Jesus had some spare crowns laying around so He decided to give the elders an early pre-judgement seat present.

 

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view. Prior to 1830, a pre-tribulation rapture was not preached, teached, or even believed.  The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute, also verified the historical content to be accurate, and changed his view (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

 Early Pre Trib Teaching.


 Didache - A Church manual from A.D. 110

 Hippolytus'( A.D. 170 to 236) Treatise On The Christ And The Antichrist - Section 66

 The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200 to 258) epistle 55 chapter 7

 Victorinus, Bishop of Petau ( A.D. 240 till his martyrdom in A.D. 304) Commentary On The Apocalypse.

 The Shepherd Of Hermes ( A.D. 130)

 Lactantius' ( second century A.D.) Commentart On The Apocalypse)

 The Epistle Of Barnabas ( A.D. 100)

 The First Epistle Of Clement ( A.D. 30 to A.D. 100)

 Peter Jurieu's Approaching Deliverance Of The Church ( A.D. 1687)

 

[prophecyjax1]

Drake, Any library has those sources, from volumes in (  ).

For those who think Revelation is in perect chronogical order, think again.

The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will. These chapters are revelations for our learning, yet not necessarily in perfect chronological order. The seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials are in order, as is most of this wonderful book. However, when we look at the seven seals, these take place before the seven trumpets and seven vials of God’s wrath. Some get confused for example when reading Revelation 6:9-17, because the fifth and sixth seals are panoramic, future views of the wrath of God. The Lord did not seem fit to place every single verse in Revelation in perfect chronological order. Perhaps the Lord expected us to do a little dividing of the Word of Truth. When the sixth angel sounds the trumpet in Revelation 9:13 to loose the four angels to dry up the great river Euphrates, it actually does not physically happen until Revelation 16:12. “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” In Revelation 9:15 they were loosed, but if we read the context, they were, “prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay a third part of men.” Then in Revelation 16:16, “He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”  Try not to get confused with the several chapters that take you outside of a perfect sequence.  The book of Revelation has plenty of references to the saints and brethren, and as previously shown, these represent those in the Church.

Precept must be upon precept.

Score:

Bible Evidence   475
pre-trib teory       0

Yours,

Michael
Prophecy Teacher
Jax, Fl