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Wreck N Sow
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« Reply #135 on: May 28, 2003, 08:53:51 AM »

Hi Bronze
Whats your explanation of Joel 2?
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #136 on: May 28, 2003, 12:58:06 PM »

Hi Bronze
Whats your explanation of Joel 2?

Hi WNS.
The very first line in that scripture should clear things up somewhat...

 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain"

 This is God instructing an angel to sound a trumpet alarm.
It's a warning of a judgement that's about to take place upon the inhabitants of the earth. Faithful Christians will not be here for that, although during the tribulation many will be saved.

 Notice in these Rapture verses the trump is not being blown by an angel, but by Jesus...it's the trump of God calling His church out of the tribulation...

 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


  1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 In this next verse it describes Jesus' return from Heaven to the earth with his armies clothed in fine linen. How can we return with Jesus to the earth from Heaven if we never got Raptured in the first place?

 Rev 19:14  And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 The words "clothed in fine linen, white and clean." make it clear these are forgiven, saved Christians and not angels.


 
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Wreck N Sow
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« Reply #137 on: May 28, 2003, 03:25:06 PM »

Oh,
So your saying its not the "bride" that is to be raptsured.

Joel 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

The day of the Lord has already begun before the bride goes forth.
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« Reply #138 on: May 28, 2003, 05:33:22 PM »

Hey PJ1  this shows that you really do not know Gods word at all. heres your words and I will hilite some of your words

"It’s all too clear that certain things must first happen before Jesus will, or even can come again. In John 21:18-19, Jesus told Peter, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.” Jesus Himself told Peter that he was going to grow old and die for Him by crucifixion (A.D. 67). This did away with an any-moment Rapture, and certainly Peter believed the Lord, and was not expecting an imminent return of Christ. In Acts 23:11, Jesus told the Apostle Paul, “Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” This prediction the Lord gave Paul, left no doubt that there could not be an any-moment Rapture, for he must still testify in Rome. "


That stuff is really backwards of you and shows how much you  pay attention to the word of God.  take a look at Moses and how God told Him he would go to Eygpt and free the Israelites and then while Moses was on his way God set out to  KILL Moses and would have except his wife did what was right in Gods eyes and God spared Moses.  So it easy to see that even though God told Moses He was going to eygpt God just about put a stop to Moses altogether.

Now PJ1 can you put 2+2 and come up with four and figure out that your Peter plan and your Paul theroy have a major flaw in them?
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« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2003, 10:20:30 PM »

Preface to my new book, ad new Publishing company to come.

We plan on publishing discount Bibles (KJV) and publishing goo Christian essays.

PREFACE

My fellow servants in Christ, the timing and sequence as to the Rapture of the Church is clearly revealed by Scripture and the Apostle Paul! That’s right! This essay of truth and Scripture will clearly be the defining moment that will show us an understanding we may not have seen afore time. It’s the author’s intent not merely to publish a book, but to bring light and understanding to a terrific Biblical doctrine by which we may “comfort one another with these words.”

Christian Churches in America have frequently been divided over the issue of the Rapture. It is our hope that this essay will promote a unity of the faith, and bring a better understanding of this great subject. It’s not our intent to attempt to persuade one way or another, just to lay the foundation of scripture and leave the reader to decide on their own. With all fairness and gravity, we will show the viewpoints of both sides and present what we believe to be the scriptural answer. We hold to, believe, and acknowledge the Holy Scriptures, as our final authority, rather than traditional beliefs.

We guarantee this expose will be the most revealing and eye-opening experience as to this subject. Does the author have all the credentials of famous Christian writers and authors, whose writings are published before written? No, this author does not. However after over 20 years of research, study, and Biblical evidence, this essay will present a dramatic case as to the timing of the Rapture. We ask the reader to look at the scriptures and be like the Berians, who searched the scriptures themselves, to see whether these things were so.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Regardless of which position you may hold, the most important matter is a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. You may have heard the saying, “it will all pan out,” and this is true. Whether your pre, mid, or post-tribulation is irrelevant in comparison to a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, with that said, the Rapture is a doctrine contained in scripture, and thus of importance to us. I’ve heard some say that it’s not a good idea for young Christians to get hung up on the details of prophecy, or that it can be too confusing or divisive. This may be partially true, however, over one-third of your Holy Bible relates to prophecy, and it is the Word of God, and must be taught and preached also. That’s why God raises up ministers, so that these things can be taught and proclaimed, just as the Apostle Paul did. When the Apostle Paul wrote the Thessalonians, and declared things about the coming of Christ, he did not apologize for it, or seem concerned about it’s effects. Jesus Himself talked about things to come, along with all the prophets and teachers throughout Bible history. Their focus was not to divide, confuse, or argue a point, but rather to comfort, exhort, and clarify things that are yet to come. We take the same position with this volume. The authors’ intent is not to attempt to argue a point, cause any division, in a Church that’s already divided, but rather to bring a focus on the prophetic scriptures, and how they relate to us in this current age. It’s our prayer that this volume will only “challenge” you to raise an eyebrow, and with an honest heart, study the scriptures for yourself, and verify the facts presented in this volume. Without an honest heart, regardless of facts or scriptural evidence, a pre-determined, pre-supposition will be hard to let go. This author does confess, that during my years in an Assembly of God Bible College, I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows you.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and I went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

May the Lord bless your reading of this book. This study tool will help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come. You will notice a lot of scriptures are quoted in this volume, and the reason for this is explained in chapter one. Holy Scripture rests as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy.
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« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2003, 11:31:57 PM »

EZEK.13  
[16] To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
[17] Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
[18] And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
[19] And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
[20] Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
[21] Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
[22] Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Dont spend all your lucre in one place
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« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2003, 07:28:32 AM »

Well If I see your book in any store I will inform the owners that they are out of line and should send your book to the shredders.
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« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2003, 08:21:25 AM »

In your post giving the Preface of your book you state:
"With all fairness and gravity, we will show the viewpoints of both sides..."

If your response to various posts on this board against your position is any indication of your "fariness and gravity" to those that disagree with you, what may we expect in the book? I fear it will NOT be presenting both sides.

The strongest argument you could use to prove your mid-tribulation position would be to completely destroy the arguments FOR a pre-trib position. I do not think you have done this in your posts here. You have argued your position with great vigor but only have given cursory responses to those presenting scripture against.

I will say, however, that your posts have been courteous and polite.
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« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2003, 09:05:01 PM »

I on the other hand will say, however, that your posts have not been courteous and polite.


someone who speaks or types to you and for you too ignore them is one of the rudests things a person can do.


I would not ignore a person speaking to me.


Like "talk to the hand for the face is not listening"
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« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2003, 11:13:58 PM »

  Hello everybody,

   My computer has crashed beyond repair. I'm on a friends computer now and wanted to say hello and I'll be back as soon as possible.

                                                                Paul2
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2003, 12:29:03 AM »

 Hello everybody,

   My computer has crashed beyond repair. I'm on a friends computer now and wanted to say hello and I'll be back as soon as possible.

                                                                Paul2

 I was wondering where you went Paul.
See ya soon.
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prophecyjax1
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« Reply #146 on: June 02, 2003, 07:29:53 AM »

Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

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« Reply #147 on: June 02, 2003, 07:30:24 AM »

Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

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« Reply #148 on: June 02, 2003, 08:14:36 AM »

Your almost as funny as Jack van Impe. Thanks for the belly laughs.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2003, 10:34:12 AM »

jax...
slow down man. You're acting like an egotistical maniac.
It's one thing to disagree on scripture, but you're putting yourself up on a platform and looking down on us poor "ignant"
lost souls. Have some humility. Your book has made you arrogant. Maybe you should read your last post and take heed.
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