Once Saved Always Saved???

[nChrist]

Amen Bj875 and Biff!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

[brad5]

Since this is somewhat involved with this subject, I thought I'd bring it up: Hebrews 6:4-6.

Some have said that this is a hypothetical passage because the Bible says elsewhere that "They went from us, but the truth is they never belonged to us, for if they belonged to us, they would've remained with us"... and thus, they were never truly saved anyway.

But others have said that the "heavenly gift" mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 is enlightment, and thus if they "shrug off" that enlightment long enough, they can't return.

I'm personally very confused about this passage, as I'm sure many others are... but what is everyone else's opinions?

[nChrist]

Hello Brad,

If I remember correctly, this passage has already been explained to you by Pastor Roger. Regardless, you are in a state of confusion yourself right now and aren't in a position to be advising others. Deal with your own problems first.

The audience were Hebrews, and many of them had been devout Jews, many very Godly people who tried hard under the Law. The Law was a schoolmaster drawing people to a knowledge of sin and a need of repentance. The Old Testament ways were very legalistic, involved rituals, sacrifices, and all kinds of things that were not part of what JESUS CHRIST ushered in. In fact, the Jews' most Holy Men were no longer Holy, and JESUS CHRIST took their place. The sacrifices and rituals were no longer sufficient because they were just a shadow of what was to come - JESUS CHRIST. It was prophesied that JESUS CHRIST would come in the Old Testament, and HE did come exactly as prophesied. However, JESUS CHRIST was rejected by the majority of HIS Own Chosen people, Israel. They were given the truth, and they were even given signs and wonders to help them believe, but many of them still rejected JESUS CHRIST. Let's introduce part of your confusion. JESUS CHRIST was the anointed KING OF ISRAEL and was to usher in the Kingdom Age. JESUS CHRIST was the MESSIAH, but they rejected him. As a result, the devout Jews were just as lost as the heathen that they were forbidden to interact with. It does get more difficult from here, and JESUS CHRIST will claim His Rightful Throne as KING. HE will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. This is called the Kingdom Age or the Millennial Kingdom. Israel will be restored at GOD'S appointed time, and JESUS CHRIST will indeed be their KING. For Christians, JESUS CHRIST is already the KING OF KINGS and we are part of HIS Heavenly Kingdom. There will also be an earthly Kingdom yet to come. I hope you understand now why you are NOT ready for this.

Brad, you need to go back to the basics, as you have already been advised many times here on the forum by Christians trying to help you. You are certainly not in a position to be trying to advise others when you are in such a state of chaos yourself. Hebrews is a study for mature Christians with heavy understanding of the Old Testament and Israel. You don't fit into that category and are still wrestling with the very beginning. So, please take the advise already given to you by many trying to help you. Start at the beginning. I doubt that you are a devout Jew still awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, so please stay away from the portions of Scripture that you are not ready for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:20 NASB  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[Soldier4Christ]

brad5,

You have been given a detailed answer on Hebrews. Yet you still keep bringing it up. It was suggested that you read Ephesians, you have been asked if you have read it yet but you have ignored that question and have gone back to posting on Hebrews again.

Now I am going to ask the question again .... Have you read the portion in Ephesians that was given to you?

[brad5]

Ah, yes. I have read Ephesians 2.

Sorry, I'm a worry-wort... the aforementioned Hebrews verse just bothers me.

[Soldier4Christ]

Since you have now read Eph 2 then tell me what you have learned on this subject from there.

[Allinall]

You know what I love about this forum?  You can go away, and come back and find people still debating vociferously!!!      Seriously, I have two comments:


Comment Number 1:

I was raised Baptist and taught once saved always saved.  This is also the teaching in the Alliance and Evangelical Free churches that I have attended.  If this teaching is true, they why does Hebrews 6:4-6 say what it does?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 6:4-6 says what it says in the context in which it says it.  Let me 'splain.     The problem is when we try to apply New Testament Nouthetic to Old Testament Ensample.  That is to say, we try and apply the teaching of salvation as expounded upon in the NT to an OT passage.  Remember, "these things were written for our ensample."  Hebrews was written to the Hebrews, specifically relating the Old Testament account of how the Hebrews failed to believe that God would give them the victory in taking the Promise Land.  To say that this passage teaches that you can lose your salvation as a New Testament believer from this Old Testament ensample, is to say that for the OT Hebrew who failed to receive the reward of the Promise Land because of their disbelief, failed to be saved.  Hence, Moses is burning in Hell, along with all of those who didn't go into the Land.  You simply can't interpret a passage one way and not the other.  They failed to believe that God would give them the victory in the Land He'd already given them.  If we read this passage, as it was intended in our day and age of the New Testament Church, then if we fail to believe that God will give us the victory in the life He bought with His blood, and continue in our sin, then it is impossible to bring us back to repentance.  Can this happen to a believer.  I believe so.  Does this mean God takes back what He died to provide for him?  I cannot believe, from my understanding of this passage and every thing Brother Tom, Roger and Joshua have so eloquently related from God's word, that God would take back His gift.  If this passage means we can lose our salvation, then salvation takes many forms, in many ways, in different times, and is suspect.  I do NOT believe that God's word in any way shape or form gives this impression. 

Salvation is and always has been by grace through faith.  It comes from believing God.  Most of the Hebrews had believed God in regards to their salvation.  This choice wasn't salvific in nature.  Rather, it was choice of a direction to go in life.  Into the Promised Land and victory, or to stay in the desert and die.  They chose the desert.  God gives the New Testament believer the same choice: to overcome this world and gain the crown of life, or to stay in the desert and die.  If we chose to overcome, we gain the reward of the crown.  Had they entered the Promised Land, they'd have gained the reward of victory and possession of that land.  If we chose the desert, it is impossible to repent.  Jesus brought us to Himself by the cross.  If we turn to the desert, He's not going to die again just to make us repent.  We, like the Hebrews of old, will just stay in the desert and die.  We, like the Hebrews of old have lost the reward, but not the relationship God gave us.

Comment Number 2:

Joshua got married?!  When?  To WHO?  And more importantly...WHEN??!!!!!      Congrats Dude!   

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Kevin!

Hebrews is an incredibly beautiful book when someone understands the massive contrast it makes between Moses and JESUS CHRIST. Moses was just a shadow of what was yet to come, and the ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THAT SHADOW IS JESUS CHRIST. The shadow is replaced by REALITY, OUR LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR WHO DIED FOR US.

Brother, we've had several on the forum recently who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. It appears that the devil sometimes uses Hebrews to convince people that they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of some sin in their lives. When the real truth of Hebrews is understood, a horrible burden is lifted and people then know that the Perfect Sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross is our Salvation, and HIS Blood washes our sins away.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Allinall]

Amen Brother Kevin!

Hebrews is an incredibly beautiful book when someone understands the massive contrast it makes between Moses and JESUS CHRIST. Moses was just a shadow of what was yet to come, and the ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THAT SHADOW IS JESUS CHRIST. The shadow is replaced by REALITY, OUR LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR WHO DIED FOR US.

Brother, we've had several on the forum recently who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. It appears that the devil sometimes uses Hebrews to convince people that they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of some sin in their lives. When the real truth of Hebrews is understood, a horrible burden is lifted and people then know that the Perfect Sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross is our Salvation, and HIS Blood washes our sins away.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

AMEN!  Hebrews warrants a good in depth study by every believer.  It is full of warnings.  But, oddly enough, it either makes you wrongfully fearful, or wonderfully joyful!

[doc]

Allinall,

I don't know who that quote was from, but here is a lengthly (sorry) from an  exegete I really appreciate.  He died this year and I will miss his works. There are many of his NT expository books already published and I recommend  them all - inall.


Expositors Bible Commentary - Leon Morris, Principal, Ridley College, Melbourne

 The writer proceeds to underline the seriousness of apostasy from the Christian faith and, indeed, of any failure to make progress. He does this by pointing to the impossibility of making a second beginning. It is impossible for a Christian to stand still. He either progresses in the faith or slips back. And slipping back is serious; it can mean cutting oneself off from the blessings God offers. The writer is not questioning the perseverance of the saints. As he has done before, he is insisting that only those who continue in the Christian way are the saints.

4 "For" (gar, omitted in NIV) indicates the reasonableness of what follows: Had they really fallen away, there would be no point in talking to them. Some see in the reference to being "enlightened" a glance at baptism, for this verb was often used of baptism in the second century. But it is not attested as early as this, and so it is better to interpret the term in the light of the general usage whereby those admitted to the Christian faith are brought to that light that is "the light of the world" (John 8:12; cf. 2Cor 4:6; 2 Peter 1:19). To abandon the gospel would be to sin against the light they had received.
    "The heavenly gift" is not closely defined. Some interpret it as the holy communion, though there seems little reason for this. It would fit well with the verb "tasted," but this verb can be used metaphorically; so the point proves little. The word "gift" (dorea) points to freeness but could be used of any one of a variety of gifts. The thought is of God's good gift and we cannot be more precise than this. The Holy Spirit is active among all believers and for that matter to some extent beyond the church, in his work of "common grace." It is clear that some activity of the Spirit is in mind. Yet once more our author does not define it closely.

5 The people in question have "tasted* the goodness of the word of God." While some limit this to the gospel, there seems to be no need and no point in doing this. Any word that God has spoken is a good gift to men, and those the writer has in mind here have come to hear something of God's word to men. They have also experienced something of "the powers of the coming age." The age to come is normally the Messianic Age, and the thought is that powers proper to the coming Messianic Age are in some sense realized now for God's people. "Powers" indicates that that age puts at men's disposal powers they do not have of themselves.   *(DCW note - “Tasted” used of Jesus in Heb 2:9  =  “truly experienced”)

6 "If they fall away" means "fall away from Christianity." The verb parapipto is found only here in the NT, and its meaning is clear. The writer is envisaging people who have been numbered among the followers of Christ but now leave that company. Such cannot be brought back to repentance. Notice that he does not say "cannot be forgiven" or "cannot be restored to salvation" or the like. It is repentance that is in mind, and the writer says that it is impossible for these people to repent. This might mean that the repentance that involves leaving a whole way of life to embrace the Christian way is unique. In the nature of the case, it cannot be repeated. There is no putting the clock back. But it seems more likely that the reference is to a repentance that means leaving the backsliding into which the person has fallen. He cannot bring himself to this repentance. The marginal reading "while they are crucifying the Son of God" is attractive, but in the end it really amounts to a truism and scarcely seems adequate. The tense, however, does convey the idea of a continuing attitude.
    It is probable that we should take the verb rendered "are crucifying ... all over again" (anastaurountas) simply as "crucifying." Elsewhere it seems always to have this meaning. The author is saying that those who deny Christ in this way are really taking their stand among those who crucified Jesus. In heart and mind they make themselves one with those who put him to death on the cross at Calvary. Heautois ("to themselves"; NIV, "to their loss") points to this inward attitude. The final words of v. 6 stress what this attitude means.
    There has been much discussion of the significance of this passage. Some think that the author is speaking about genuine Christians who fall away and that he denies that they may ever come back. This view sets the writer of the epistle in contradiction with other NT writers for whom it is clear that the perseverance of the saints is something that comes from God and not from their own best efforts (e.g., John 6:37; 10:27-29). Others think that the case is purely hypothetical. Because the writer does not say that this has ever happened, they infer that it never could really happen and that to put it this way makes the warning more impressive. But unless the writer is speaking of something that could really happen, it is not a warning about anything. Granted, he does not say that anyone has apostatized in this way, nevertheless, he surely means that someone could, and he does not want his readers to do so. A third possibility is that the writer is talking about what looks very much like the real thing but lacks something. The case of Simon Magus springs to mind. He is said to have believed, to have been baptized, and to have continued with Philip (Acts 8:13). Presumably he shared in the laying on of hands and the gift given by it. Yet after all this Peter could say to him, "Your heart is not right before God....you are full of bitterness and captive to sin" (Acts 8:21-23). The writer is saying that when people have entered into the Christian experience far enough to know what it is all about and have then turned away, then, as far as they themselves are concerned, they are crucifying Christ. In that state they cannot repent.


*footnote  6   In the verb anastauro÷ (anastauroo) the prefix ana (ana) is usually taken in the sense of "up," "to lift up on a cross." In other compounds ana sometimes signifies "again," and this is why some take the verb here to mean recrucify. But as this sense is not attested elsewhere it seems better to take it as "crucify."

7 The process is illustrated from agriculture. There is land that frequently drinks in rain and as a result brings forth a crop. The rain comes first. The land does not produce the crop of itself. The spiritual parallel should not be overlooked. The word translated "a crop" (botane) is a general term for herbage; it does not mean any specific crop. "Useful to those for whom it is farmed" means that the beneficiaries are people in general and not only those who actually work on the farm. This land, then, receives God's blessing.

8 We should not miss the point that this is the same land as in v. 7. We should probably place a comma at the end of v. 7 and proceed thus: "but if it produces...." or "but when it produces...." The reference to producing "thorns and thistles" reminds us inevitably of the curse of Genesis 3:17 ff.--a curse on that very creation of which it had been said, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Gen 1:31). This land then, producing only what is worthless, awaits the curse. "Is in danger of being cursed" might give the impression that the land came close to being cursed but just escaped. The author seems rather to be saying that at the moment of which he speaks the curse has not yet fallen, certain though it is. Such a field in the end "will be burned." Some commentators think the writer knew little of agriculture, for the burning of the field was not a curse but rather a source of blessing as it got rid of the weeds and so prepared for a good crop. But whatever his knowledge of farming, he had a valid point. Land that produced nothing but weeds faced nothing but fire. The warning to professing Christians whose lives produce only the equivalent of weeds is plain.

Verification from another source:

Heb 6:4
[And have tasted] To "taste" of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to "experience," or to "understand" it. The expression is derived from the fact that the "taste" is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Matt 16:28; John 8:51; Heb 2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had "experienced" the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

[nChrist]

Hello Doc,

We can agree to disagree, and that's what I must do. I don't think that the quoted material you posted is even close. Commentary like that is what's causing so many problems and confusion. Brother, I won't debate it, but I do plan to post a series on Hebrews that will answer these questions. I hope you don't take this in a personal way, but I will state with certainty that the commentary is wrong. There are many commentaries that people depend on that are totally wrong, and that's just one reason why the Bible is and should be our ultimate source.

We hope to start soon, and I think that the Bible will speak bluntly for itself. Again, please don't take this in a personal way.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 3:15-16 NASB  Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

[Brother Jerry]

I would have to agree with BEP on that one.  There are a couple of key phrases in those verses that let you know exactly what it is that is being talked about.  Let me go ahead and pull up the verses here so we have them for reference

KJV - 4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
   5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
   6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

One of the key verses is in verse 4.  "have tasted of the heavenly gift"  This speaks of a people who have had a taste of what God has to offer.  We CANNOT limit our thinking to just that of Christians because you have to remember that the Hebrews had also tasted of the heavenly gift.  They were "enlightened" as to God's ways.  They were "partakers" of the blessings that God has to offer.  Could this be speaking only of Christians?  Sure however, it cannot be limited to speaking strictly of Christians because this verse could also apply to Hebrews as well. 

Another important phrase is in verse 6 "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" is speaking of crucifying Jesus a second time.  We have to take a look at what the Bible says about being crucified.

Some verses throughout that refer to crucifying and such.  One must remember what Pilate said to the Jews and their response. 
Look at John 19:15 "But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. "
Here Pilate asks the Jews if they are asking him to crucify their (the Jews) king?  At which time they respond that Jesus was not their king but that Ceasar was their king.  These people who had tasted of the heavenly gift denied that Jesus was their king. 
Now take a look over at Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. "
Let all of Israel know that God had sent Jesus, the same Christ they had been looking for, Israels Lord and Christ, and they crucified Him.

Paul expands upon what Jesus is to the Jews in  1 Corinthians 1:23  "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"
Paul lets us know that for the Greek (Gentile, the world) Jesus is pure foolishness....that the things of God are silly...there is pure rejection from the world for Jesus.  But to the Jew Jesus is the stumbling block.  Jesus is a stumbling block for the Jews because they did not see the Messiah that God had sent for them, the one promised of old.  Paul knew the OT and references possibly  Jeremiah 18:15   "Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; "  Paul also reinforces this "stumbling" later in  Romans 9:32   "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" In which Paul speaks of how the Jews sought the glory of God by the works of the law and not by acts of faith.  They stumbled at the stumblingstone of faith which is manifest in Jesus.

Let us also take a look at 1 Peter Chapter 2 verses 6-8 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. "
We see that Jesus is referred to as the corner stone and becomes a stumbling stone to those which stumble at the word, being disobedient.  Note that it says here "whereunto also they were appointed"  This is in reference to the Jews who were appointed, they had the heavenly gift and were tasters of the glory.  But they stumbled.

So through all of this we come back to where Hebrews left off.  We know that Jesus was crucified once and that He cannot be crucified a second time.  Although we often will talk about metaphorically that when we sin we may as well hit the nail ourselves.  Jesus was forseen by the Jews and His story fortold to those that were in God's graces, the Jews.  For the nation of Israel to move forward as a nation they would have to have their savior come.  Well since Jesus has already come they missed the boat.  In order for their savior to come it would mean that Jesus would have to come again and be crucified again....which ain't going to happen.  So the nation of Israel, although still God's people, have stumbled upon the cornerstone they were promised and they chose Ceaser as their king instead of Lord Christ. 

This set of verses is really simple to interpret and there was no need at all to go into any great length even as little as I have.  You must always interpret more complex verses in light of the simpler verses.  And there are far too many verses out there that point clearly to salvation being "eternity" and lasting "forever".  And with those then this verse cannot contradict those and must not be in reference to a Christian losing salvation but a nation of God's chosen people that were "enlightened" in the glory of God but stumbled at Christ and their only hope would be to have Christ crucified again.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Jerry. Very well said.

It's great to see you brother.

[Brother Jerry]

Thank you.  Been another crazy couple of weeks....and my computer HDD died so I spent a couple of days getting everything rebuilt...and no offense to CU...but there were many other things to attempt to recover from the HDD than my login information and such

[Soldier4Christ]

I'm sorry to hear about your computer problems but glad you're back here.