Once Saved Always Saved???

[Brother Jerry]

Yeah been a crazy couple of weeks.  Was out of town for a week of it then on call so I was working at night, turning into a vampire and such...all the Thanksgiving stuff and just plain crazy...But I would drop in to check anything new and exciting...   Thanks

[nChrist]

Hello Brother Jerry,

We missed you, and we're glad to have you back. I worked shift work for 25 years, so I know what working varied hours does to someone. I've been retired since 2001, and my body clock is still mixed up. I really enjoyed working at night. It really worked out pretty well since everyone was either at work or school while I slept, and I spent the evening with the family.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:19-20 NASB  And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.  Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

[Soldier4Christ]

I've done a lot of those crazy hours, too. It seemed like I would just get used to one shift and then would get changed to another just to get changed back again. It made for some interesting times.

[kerrylou1]

First and foremost one must take a look at the context of the verse or verses that we are looking at.


Who was the verse written too?  Hebrews/Jews

I would be interested to hear your explanation of Hebrews 3 vs 1, "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus Christ."

I do not doubt that this was written to Hebrews but, are you saying that there were no saved Hebrews? It makes more sense that this letter was written to Hebrews who believed in Jesus Christ. That being true it makes nonsense of suggesting that it was written to the unsaved.

Notice they are called "Holy brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling". Can they be partakers if they are unsaved? Would you call them brethren since those who are brethren believe?

I actually love this topic because it brings out the difficulty we have with our doctrines meeting our faith.

Consider those who condemn such as believe once saved always saved. Is it not true that you live your life according to this hope? You must or you condemn yourselves. I, for one know that sin can periodically get the better of me. Do I not still expect to be saved? However, if I believe that one is not held securely in God's hand, what hope have I?

For those who use this doctrine as a means to throw aside all caution, how do you make your lascivious lifestyle measure up to the teaching of the apostles? Consider Paul's own words, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" Who forbids? Paul says, "God forbid!" (See Romans 6.)

Let us all consider the security of our faith. Did not Jesus say, "Except a man is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God"? I was born into a family and, as long as I live I remain a member of that family. Since I have been born a child of God how can I not be a child of God? Can parents really disown their children or, children their parents? Either you are born into a family or you are not. It cannot be any other way except it is by adoption. Even in adoption the choice is the parent's, not the child's.

But to those of you who have not considered the privelege of this birthright let me take you to Esau who sold his birthright for the pleasures that don't last. Jesus said, "Store your treasures in heaven." Have you sold your birthright for the pleasures of sin, denying even the Lord Jesus who bought you? Remember, it says of Esau that he could find no place of repentance - though he sought it with tears. When you see this example - given to us so that we might learn by example - it is easy to understand why Hebrews says, "It is impossible to renew such a one to repentance." Will you harden your heart till there is no longer any place you might find repentance?

You are secure as long as you don't refuse the hand that saved you. But, how can you remain safe if you do?

We all need this parental security so that we need not fear [God has not given us a spirit of fear but of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Abba! Let us come boldly before the throne of grace to find the help we need] but we also need to fear becoming as the prodigal and preferring the "steak on the plate while we wait" rather than the "pie in the sky when we die".

God bless you all.

[Brother Jerry]

First off Kerrylou.  Welcome to the CU forums.  And from reading your post I look forward to more discussions in the future.

And let me say also Amen to the rest of your post.

As to your reply to me, let me address a couple of points.

are you saying that there were no saved Hebrews?

Quite honestly I would say that there ARE no saved Jews.  If they are Jewish then they are not Christian and thus not saved.

Now you started off looking at Hebrews 3:1.  But lets get things in context and take a look even further back at Hebrews 1 and 2.

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundrey times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets" 
This verse lets us know that we are speaking to a group of people of Jewish decent.  (and I do not think we are in disagreement that the epistle was directed to Hebrews/Jews).

Now the bulk of Hebrews 1 is setting up how much bigger Jesus is than anything ever brought forth before.  Jesus is "heir of all", "the brightness of his glory".  We are shown all the things that the Hebrews know of God, and were told of the Messiah. 

Then in Chapter 2 the author states "we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard..." The author equates himself with the readers.  Granted this could be either as bretheren in Christ or as considering Jewish heritage.  But the things we have heard is referencing the old teachings and ideals that were talked about in the previous chapter.  So that narrows it down to talking about the Jewish aspect of things.

And the author continues to talk about how the Jewish faith has been shown all along what is to be Christ.  "For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast", "which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord", "bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders",

Look down at Hebrews 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren."  Notice the perspective is not one of inclusion.  The reader is placed outside looking in at Jesus and whome He calls brethren.

Further down is an appeal to the Hebrew family importance when the author mentions in verse 16 that Jesus was of the seed of Abraham.  This is not important to Christians of any sort.  But is dramatically important to the Hebrew faith where family heritage is vital.

Now we get to Chapter 3.  In verse 1 take a look as you had pointed out.
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling"
There is a couple of things that stand out in this verse.  First is the adjectives used such as "holy", the author seperates out these brethren from the use anywhere else.  The priests considered themselves holy, the practicing jews considered themselves holy.  Even as he continue with the things that would be important to Hebrew people.  Even with OT references.  And references to Moses and the time spent in the wilderness.

Now the Hebrews were in the living God, before Jesus came.  Look at verse 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"  And go down to verses 14-15"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation" And more references to the time of 40 years in the wilderness.  Until ending in verse 19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief"

Which wraps up chapters 1 through 3 in which the reader was talking of how the Jews were the holy people and they were with the living God.  And that they were God's chosen people.  They were the heirs to salvation in that it was their job to pass along the word of God to the world.  But we see that in the end if they do not believe in Jesus, as the author pointed out they have to listen to what God has been saying all along, then they will be like those that failed to believe in the wilderness and they will be "whose carcases fell in the wilderness"

I think that when clearly put in the context of the rest of the epistle and then with the rest of the Bible itself it becomes quite clear who the target of the epistle was unsaved Jewish people.  And that when put into that light the verse used by the "losing salvation" crowd become invalid.

I hope that helps out in explaining where I come from as far as looking at Hebrews.

Again welcome to the forum

[Jemidon2004]

I for one love those shift hours...lol. I work 3:30 pm to 2:00 AM on monday thru thursday....so i know EXACTLY how crazy hours can be. Plus taking care of my wife, my home, and bills takes up the rest of my time, but i wouldn't have it any other way, because I can take care of my wife . Anyways, hey to all who have been missing me or wondering where i've been at, just been working like crazy and I wanted to drop in and wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! Cya.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Joshua,

It's great to see you take a few to say hi. Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas also.

[Kelly4Jesus]

I believe the "once saved always saved" is used as an excuse by many, without constantly considering what comes with the cost of Salvation--for all that Jesus did for us in order for us to receive eternal Salvation! Yes, you are saved when you accept Jesus in your life, but you also must continue to repent from sin, and work eagerly and without hesitation to follow His steps, constantly seeking His Face.

Yes, we are saved--but we must constantly stay in His Light. We sin on a daily basis, and we need to always repent. Salvation comes with a price--Jesus paid for it for us. But we also must do as He tells us to do, constantly seeking Him in all we do.

Does that make sense? I haven't had a lot of coffee yet!

[Soldier4Christ]

I somewhat agree with you sister. It is because we love Him that we will repent and do as He tells us. Not a requirement of salvation but because we are humbled in knowing that we are not perfect, that we need Him daily and need to follow in His footsteps.

[nChrist]

I for one love those shift hours...lol. I work 3:30 pm to 2:00 AM on monday thru thursday....so i know EXACTLY how crazy hours can be. Plus taking care of my wife, my home, and bills takes up the rest of my time, but i wouldn't have it any other way, because I can take care of my wife :). Anyways, hey to all who have been missing me or wondering where i've been at, just been working like crazy and I wanted to drop in and wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! Cya.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Hello Brother Joshua,

I'm late in getting to reply because I've been out of state visiting my children and grandchildren. We had a wonderful time in the LORD, and I hope that you did also. Please do drop by more often and let us know how you're doing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 5:6 NASB  "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

[nChrist]

Hello Kelly4Jesus,

Plainly and bluntly, Christians must know that Salvation is a GIFT from GOD. If someone wishes to associate "Payment" with Salvation, the entire Payment was made by JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS. Man has nothing worthy for payment, and it would be an insult to JESUS CHRIST to think that we did. It would also be an insult to GOD to think that we work for our own Salvation, as that is something we can never earn or deserve. JESUS CHRIST was and is the ONLY PERFECT SACRIFICE. It is the vanity of man to think that he or she has something or can do something for our Salvation. It wouldn't be a GIFT if man had to work for it. We would also be saying that the WORK of JESUS CHRIST wasn't PERFECT and FINISHED on the CROSS. That's a horrible error to make.

What happens after Salvation is what we should be talking about. There is a quantity and quality of fellowship with JESUS with what we do or don't do. There is also a "JOY" that can be made more complete with what we do or don't do. Our good works are only judged as GOOD if they come from hearts of love and appreciation. If they are for payment, self-recognition, or other selfish reasons, they are burned up as worthless. Our good works will be judged for REWARDS - BUT NOT for Salvation. ONLY ONE WORK is good enough and acceptable enough for SALVATION, and that WORK was DONE PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY ONLY BY JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. It had to be a GIFT because we HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING worthy to offer, do, or not do.

For the same reasons as above, it is foolishness for mankind to go about searching for or trying to establish their own righteousness. There are none righteous, and the man or woman who thinks they have any righteousness of their own are fools. The ONLY righteousness we have is yielding to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. HE imputes some of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to our account. Along the same lines, we don't make ourselves fit for anything, holy, or acceptable. ALL of this WORK is the EXCLUSIVE WORK of JESUS CHRIST! Our part is the acceptance of GOD'S GIFTS and partaking of the spiritual riches that HE has laid out before us. EVERY GOOD THING THAT WE HAVE COMES FROM GOD - NOT OURSELVES!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-27 NASB  In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

[txpiper]

Hello all. Great discussion. I love this subject.

Pardon me if this has been brought up and I overlooked it in my perusal of the thread, but I think the "born again" concept has to be considered. I believe that John 1:12-13 indicate that rebirth happens at the point of belief. If this is the case, then to lose one's salvation would seem to require being unborn and further, recovery from this condition would require being born again, again.

I don't think this happens. "That which is born of Spirit is spirit" is an irrevocable thing in my view. I know of nothing that would indicate that regeneration can be discarded or reversed.

[nChrist]

Hello Txpiper,

I see that you are new, so WELCOME!

I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you.

I believe there are a large number of things that happen at the moment of Salvation, and none of them can be undone. We must remember that real Salvation involves the Promises of ALMIGHTY GOD, and GOD never breaks a Promise. HE is ever FAITHFUL!

A full study of all the wonderful things that happen at the moment of Salvation would be beautiful and lengthy. The Key Events all involve the works of JESUS CHRIST - not man. JESUS CHRIST makes us fit and acceptable for our Promised Inheritance, and HE never fails. HE further tells us that no power can pluck us out of HIS Hand.

I am convinced that GOD wanted us to have 100% assurance of Salvation so we can live Victorious in JESUS. Our Confidence and Faith is in HIM - not ourselves.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:14-15 NASB  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

[bj875]

HI! I agree with the "once saved, always saved". To me, to think you could lose your salvation is saying that there is a higher power that can take it away. I think we all know that there is not anything more powerful than the Lord, Himself. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(KJV)

[Biff]

to txpiper,

I think the "born again" concept has to be considered. I believe that John 1:12-13 indicate that rebirth happens at the point of belief.  

I wonder why most people think that this event doesn't include such life-changing power (in order to become the sons of God) that it is by no means (as some seem to think) a secret or quiet occurance?

Jesus said: You must be born again!
There is no way around this!  It's not an option!  We all must be if we're going to be saved!

Therefore we have to define what "Salvation" means in the light of the Gospel.

What happens when a man is born again? -
 
1 Peter 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

If the above scripture is true to you personally, then He has revealed Himself to you in your spirit, and you can't wait for Christ, for your Love to appear in Person.  You're chomping at the bit because you now love Him so much that all of your rejoicing is over Him with unspeakable joy and one that is full of the glory of God.  You're no longer the same - and never will be - because now you Know The Truth, and The Truth has made you Free!

The Spirit, through Paul, says it like this:

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Unless one becomes a NEW CREATURE (BORN AGAIN) IN Christ then how can he be saved?
To become Born Again is to be made Anew, of God, of above!

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Salvation is this - "The forgiveness of sins, as well as victory over them!"  Being saved FROM our sins, as well as our being saved TO God!  Both are necessary if one is to believe that they are truly saved.

Otherwise - James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

God didn't send His Son to merely die for our sins thus forgive them!!!
His Son was also raised from the dead in order for us to get victory of them, by making us a Whole New Creature "Us IN Him and He IN US", one whose heart is now after God.

I have a page on my site that may interest you...
http://www.intergate.com/~subi/born.htm

Becoming "A New Man" after God's own heart, is what Salvation is all about!  Then you can say - OSAS!

May the Lord bless you,
Biff