Once Saved Always Saved???

[Allinall]

Doc,

Thank you for posting that lengthy portion of the commentary!  I, like Brother Tom, will have to agree to disagree with you.  As a side thought...it amazes me what "the scholars" say and how often we swallow it hook, line and sinker.  No Brother, I'm not referring to you!     I'm thinking more of myself and those with whom I go to church.  Whenever these topics are breached, we're all so ready to spout off what someone else said about the topic.  Have we come so far to be knocked so far back?  Doesn't the same Spirit that taught those men also teach us?

In this specific passage, I was aware of only 2 points of view.  I've come to learn that there are 4 such viewpoints.  I also figured that out after I developed my own understanding of what's being taught in this passage through prayerful study.  Uniquely, I struggled for years trying to understand it.  And, through the years, I have grasped, what I believe to be, the proper understanding - with room for improvement.     I think it does us all good to put the commentaries away some times, and get down with our knees on the floor, our hearts and minds in His Word, and let HIM teach us.  Just a thought...

Thanks again Brother for taking the time to post!

[Allinall]

Tom,

Brother,  I can't wait to read your study! 

[nChrist]

First, Amen Brothers!

Brother Kevin, the last thing on my mind about Hebrews is to try and show someone how smart I am. We've had at least 4 people in just the last couple of weeks who were actually suffering with their misunderstanding of Hebrews. I really don't understand how all of these Hebrews problems hit at once, but I feel led to help the people who are agonizing about they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of confusion from Hebrews.

I know that Pastor Roger and I were able to help a man and his wife, and we might have helped at least one other some, but I feel led to put these things to rest and try to help folks understand the common sense things that were happening in Hebrews that put everything into perfect perspective. I started looking for what was causing all the confusion when we had so many people at once who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. What I found was several fairly well-known commentaries where the writer didn't have the first clue about Hebrews. I say this because there wasn't even a mention of Jews, Israel, the Old Covenant, and the focus and purpose for Hebrews. I'll simply say that I was shocked and amazed that there was so much false material out there about Hebrews. People would be much better off by just having the Bible and forgetting about trusting someone who wrote a commentary. The Holy Bible is Inspired by GOD, and the commentaries are NOT. I spent several days just trying to figure out how writers of several commentaries completely missed the contrasts between Law and Grace and the contrast between blood sacrifices of animals versus the HOLY and PERFECT BLOOD OF JESUS. This seems to jump off the pages of Hebrews, so I don't have a clue how anyone could try to disassociate Hebrews with Jews, Moses, the Law, Levitical Priests versus the High Priest of JESUS, rituals versus REALITY, and the list goes on and on.

Brother Kevin, I'm really very sad that the devil appears to be using Hebrews to convince people that they are too bad to be saved or they've done something so horrible that they can't be forgiven. BUT, it appears this is happening with quite a few people who are really wanting to come to CHRIST, but they think they have already been rejected because of some gross misunderstanding of Hebrews. I want to help these people with the TRUTH, and that is my only motive.

Brother, I have a mass of notes I'm organizing now. I hope this is started in the next few days, and I'll holler at you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 3:11 NASB  Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

[Brother Jerry]

Amen to all and BEP I look forward to that as well.  Never struggled with the meanings but more with the delivery of the true and proper meaning.  I have noticed that about commentaries as well and have even run across some that are just too off the wall to even consider.  (Even some of my own early ones were that way   )

But I think we will all look forward to reading them. 

And the only advice I have to anyone who stumbles with Hebrews is to study the rest of the Bible and put the seemingly more complex verses of Hebrews in context with the simpler verses in other books.  One cannot contradict the other.  And if you have a verse that simply states and orange is an orange then the verse that appears to possibly say an orange is an apple is being interpreted incorrectly.

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Jerry!

You hit the nail on the head - there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. If someone finds what appears to be a contradiction, it's because of misunderstanding. The answer is usually found in the context, the audience, the purpose, the time frame, and Biblical history.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:11 NASB  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

[Shammu]

You hit the nail on the head - there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. If someone finds what appears to be a contradiction, it's because of misunderstanding. The answer is usually found in the context, the audience, the purpose, the time frame, and Biblical history.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:11 NASB  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

Brother the only contradictions, is mans failure to understand the Bible.  The Word of God, in the Bible is perfect.

[Allinall]

First, Amen Brothers!

Brother Kevin, the last thing on my mind about Hebrews is to try and show someone how smart I am. We've had at least 4 people in just the last couple of weeks who were actually suffering with their misunderstanding of Hebrews. I really don't understand how all of these Hebrews problems hit at once, but I feel led to help the people who are agonizing about they can't be saved or they can't be forgiven because of confusion from Hebrews.

I know that Pastor Roger and I were able to help a man and his wife, and we might have helped at least one other some, but I feel led to put these things to rest and try to help folks understand the common sense things that were happening in Hebrews that put everything into perfect perspective. I started looking for what was causing all the confusion when we had so many people at once who were really hurting because of confusion with Hebrews. What I found was several fairly well-known commentaries where the writer didn't have the first clue about Hebrews. I say this because there wasn't even a mention of Jews, Israel, the Old Covenant, and the focus and purpose for Hebrews. I'll simply say that I was shocked and amazed that there was so much false material out there about Hebrews. People would be much better off by just having the Bible and forgetting about trusting someone who wrote a commentary. The Holy Bible is Inspired by GOD, and the commentaries are NOT. I spent several days just trying to figure out how writers of several commentaries completely missed the contrasts between Law and Grace and the contrast between blood sacrifices of animals versus the HOLY and PERFECT BLOOD OF JESUS. This seems to jump off the pages of Hebrews, so I don't have a clue how anyone could try to disassociate Hebrews with Jews, Moses, the Law, Levitical Priests versus the High Priest of JESUS, rituals versus REALITY, and the list goes on and on.

Brother Kevin, I'm really very sad that the devil appears to be using Hebrews to convince people that they are too bad to be saved or they've done something so horrible that they can't be forgiven. BUT, it appears this is happening with quite a few people who are really wanting to come to CHRIST, but they think they have already been rejected because of some gross misunderstanding of Hebrews. I want to help these people with the TRUTH, and that is my only motive.

Brother, I have a mass of notes I'm organizing now. I hope this is started in the next few days, and I'll holler at you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 3:11 NASB  Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Brother,

Can't hide intelligience - God wrought or otherwise.     You go dawg!      I feel the same way.   I come back and I see this issue all over the place.  I agree that it needs to be dealt with.  I'll be praying for you in your study Brother as you do so. 

Hebrews is a beautiful book, full of hope and God's grace.  For the O.T. Hebrew, who sacrificed yearly, sometimes more than yearly, a perfect sacrifice, once for all is exactly what they were longing to see come.  Not all understood.  What a blessing to them to read those words!  What's more?  Jesus, Who suffered in all points yet without sin, not only knows what is needed to live a victorious life, but knows what the struggle to do so is like.  He helps us, not as some distant omnipotent Deity, but as a Person, beside me, understanding what I'm going through and what I need to get through it, and offering that provision as only an omnipotent Deity can. 

I'll pray that the folks being crushed by this book begin to understand it better.   

His,

Kevin

[Allinall]

Amen to all and BEP I look forward to that as well.  Never struggled with the meanings but more with the delivery of the true and proper meaning.  I have noticed that about commentaries as well and have even run across some that are just too off the wall to even consider.  (Even some of my own early ones were that way   )

But I think we will all look forward to reading them. 

And the only advice I have to anyone who stumbles with Hebrews is to study the rest of the Bible and put the seemingly more complex verses of Hebrews in context with the simpler verses in other books.  One cannot contradict the other.  And if you have a verse that simply states and orange is an orange then the verse that appears to possibly say an orange is an apple is being interpreted incorrectly.

Amen!

[Allinall]

Brother the only contradictions, is mans failure to understand the Bible.  The Word of God, in the Bible is perfect.

Amen Bro!  Of course, we understand that we don't agree on this matter, and that I'm right and you're wrong.     Seriously Brother, you spoke truth here.  We arrive at different conclusions, but I count you as no less than a loved Brother in Christ.   

His,

Kevin

[doc]

Christian Greetings, Brothers,

I too am looking forward to the CU study of Hebrews on this MB.

Many years ago when I taught a Bible study on this book, I undertook to read every exegetical publication I could find - 65 in all - at a Bible school close by.  This school was not a denominational one so their library was well balanced in all denominational leanings, and I think you all know what I mean.

Some very interesting results came from this study, the least of which was that whatever denominational position one chose to make from this great book, the opposite could be made by another one.  Occasionally this was accomplished by twisting the Greek language, but usually it was done by ignoring contrary verses altogether.  I find this problem where ever I go in commentaries, which will come as no surprise to many of you here on this board.

My Bible study of His Holy Word is a very personal, heartfelt and Spirit directed one supplemented commentaries - not dictated by them.  Those men writing those tomes spent their entire lives delving into Holy Writ and have an enormous educational advantage over an aging medical peddler like me.  At the same time I realize the motto of any academic environment is to "Publish or Perish"  This is true of academic divines as well as any college professor today - and in the past.  The drive for tenure is an ancient one and most will do almost anything to attain it. It's called job security.  The intellectual (and sometimes moral) compromises involved in accomplishing this remind me of the ones required to succeed in the political realm.

I propose we all come to this landmark study of an essential and very different book, with as much of an open mind - and heart - as is spiritually possible.  I commit to pray intently prior to responding to any post herein and challenge you all to do the same.  Perhaps we all will find new light - His light.

Do it to it, Tom, and be led by Him.

Amen,

doc

[vampares]

4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

To the point Once Saved Always Saved??? it would seem as though perhaps not by this passage.  If anything it does point the the perfect sacrifice as being all sufficient.  You cannot stand against God and in that you cannot stand against those who are "saved" as in persecution.

 

If anything can be gleaned from the book of revelations it is that some people are judged in this world, "saints", and those who are judged later, at the second coming.  It could be said that the "saints" are saved; they are not in contempt of God and if they are they are dealt with.  Everyone else might be as deserving of sainthood or being saved but they have not been judged yet.  That may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing.  It is through Miracles, signs and wonders that saints, disciples, are known and they are given to further the word of God (ie everything after the Gospels).

Peter, Cephas, after the Crucifixion became the head of the Church.  He was put in jail.  You cannot put the Church in jail and be saved.  The guards did not know that Peter was a man of God.  He did miracles and they then knew that he was.  Likewise there are believers who proclaim their belief.  These people cannot be persecuted.  To do so is to hold Christ in contempt.

Personally, I believe that there is no time to make amends when the kingdom of God has come up someone who is in contempt.  I say that I believe this because there is no way of truly knowing what Judgment Day will be like and what ruler we will be held to.  If you think that it will be the Bible alone then you obviously didn't read it in the first place.

There is the notion that any sin is heinous to God and he see us all as wicked.  Christ suffers hell for us as punishment redeeming us of our sins.  This is not typically a disputed concept.  What is in dispute is what it takes to be someone of Christ.  John 3:16 says anyone who believes in his name.  On the surface is seems like a one time thing like registering to vote.  The name Jesus is an English word.  The belief is something more then a verbal or internalized affirmation.  Who he was, who he is and what he died for and why he died bring us closer to him.  Part of that is that you do not hijack the true and go around doing un-Christ-like things in his name, etc.  These people who pervert Christianity will suffer the deepest depths of Hell.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi vampares,

I don't think that I have welcomed you yet so welcome to Christians Unit.

I must disagree with some of your post but I will not argue with you over it.

Peter, Cephas, after the Crucifixion became the head of the Church.

The true Church is the "Body of Christ" not a brick and mortar building. The Head of that Church is Jesus Christ not Peter, not Paul or any other man. (Be advised that we do not do Catholic vs Protestant here. Any posts that do such will be modified or deleted.)

Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I say that I believe this because there is no way of truly knowing what Judgment Day will be like and what ruler we will be held to.

It is quite clearly stated in the Bible what ruler we will be held to ... Jesus Christ is that one and only ruler...

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

and we will be judged according to His word.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[Shammu]

These people who pervert Christianity will suffer the deepest depths of Hell.

No, these people will suffer the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

The Dead Are Judged

Revelations 20:11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.  12 I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. 13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. 14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  15 And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

[EndTimeEvangelist]

Regarding Eternal Security, Security Of the Believer, Or Once Saved Always Saved,
Please Comment On The Following Verse OF Scripture, which I Have Posted Using Three different
Translations Of the Bible, And It's Effect On The Doctrine.

1st Corinthians 10:12

(KJV)  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

(BBE)  So let him who seems to himself to be safe go in fear of a fall.

(ISV) Therefore, the person who thinks he is standing securely should watch
out that he does not fall.

[Soldier4Christ]

The key word here in the KJV is "thinketh". In the BBE is "seems to himself" and the ISV is "the person who thinks he is standing securely". We see in this chapter that it is speaking of those who are idolaters, fornicators and those that tempt Christ.

1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

We are being told that we cannot be followers of God if we are followers after those things of the Devil. We cannot be followers of God if we have our eyes set on the things of this world.