Once Saved Always Saved???

[Allinall]

Another Amen to that.

 

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I just finished reading many beautiful posts in this thread, and it made me think of many Precious Portions of Scripture and Promises from GOD. It made me reflect on WHO has STRENGTH, RIGHTEOUSNESS, HOLINESS, SPOTLESSNESS, AND ABSOLUTE PURITY! It's CHRIST - not me and not any other Christian I've ever met. If we depended on ourselves for Salvation, Salvation would not be possible. BUT, we depend on CHRIST - not ourselves. We don't have any RIGHTEOUSNESS of our own, but CHRIST has enough to share with all of us. Any RIGHTEOUSNESS we have is put to our account by CHRIST and belongs to HIM - not us. It's the Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST that has set us free from the Curse of Sin and Death, and disobedience of the Law of Faith is the ONLY Unforgivable SIN. I give THANKS for this because my ONLY goodness is IN CHRIST - not myself. I fail often, but CHRIST never fails. Any good that I do in the NAME of the LORD is for LOVE and APPRECIATION of CHRIST - not Salvation or maintenance of Salvation. CHRIST keeps us through HIS POWER and is not willing for a single member of HIS FLOCK to be left behind. All GOOD THINGS of ETERNAL WORTH AND SECURITY ARE IN CHRIST because ONLY HE can possess those things. As Christians, we are HIS Eternal Possessions, and HE has the POWER to keep us. When we grow in STRENGTH - it's HIS STRENGTH - not our strength. When we sin, it's OUR SIN - not HIS. We are seen IN AND THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS OF CHRIST because we are IN HIM, and we don't possess these attributes on our own. WE MUST HAVE CHRIST - OR WE HAVE NOTHING!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Acts 26:22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Psalms 143:8 NASB  Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in You; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to You I lift up my soul.

[preachervern]

When God came into my heart and saved me, he saved my life. Now knowing all that I do about God and all the blessing in my life time I like were I am, save and will always be.

[Brother Jerry]

Yup!  Beware, however that you "...make your calling and election sure" as Paul warns.  Security is not a license to sin.  If we treat it as such, we must look to our faith and see if it is truly real faith.  "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that stands alone."  True believers have that faith.  They may not consistantly walk by that faith, and may put too much confidence in sight.  But it is God Who works in us the work He began in us.  Never rely on self, but never be idle in any area of obedience.   

I have to add my Amen to that as well

[lightpost7000]

In a previous post, 'Kintups' cited a book by Dan Corner, entitled, 'The Believer's Conditional Security.' In this book, which incidentally allows for free copying no strings attached so that people will not perish for lack of knowledge; he makes the following thought-provoking comment:

" Ponder This...

OSAS(Once Saved, always saved) people who especially subscrib to the Calvinistic Westminster Confession see no contradiction in saying we can have full assurance now; then turning around to say if we ever fall away from the faith or ever become apostate, even after a convincing testimony, we prove we were never saved as we thought we were!

In other words, if you turn away from Christ at the very end of your life, even after a convincing testimony for Christ of many years, you show at that point in time that your faith was not real, as you thought it was, but only spurious. Then on the other hand, if that same person comes back he may have a real faith after all! But only his spiritual condition at the very end of his life, as he takes his last breath, will reveal if his faith was the saving kind or not.

Though denied, the essence of the OSAS moderate view, embraced by (Bible teacher's name left out) and others, is: If you ever had true faith, you're saved, but you can never really know until the very end of your life that you had true faith to be saved. Again, they are apprehensive to admit to this, but it's consistent with their view. Remember, if their remains any opportunity in time to become apostate, and one does even after a convincing testimony of many years, then he show he was never really saved to begin with, that is, unless he comes back to the Lord.

The bottom line in this is nothing more than double talk about the full assurance that people like (Bible teacher's name left out) says one can have. Salvation assurance, as OSAS adherents understand it, cannot in reality coexist with the possibility of becoming apostate and thereby proving such a person was never saved to begin with, even at the very beginning when he had a convincing testimony! So in spite of what such OSAS proponents may say, they really don't have any salvation assurance at all, except in name only because time still exists for them to possibly become apostate!..."

Very thought-provoking. Would appreciate your comments.

lightpost 7000

[nChrist]

In a previous post, 'Kintups' cited a book by Dan Corner, entitled, 'The Believer's Conditional Security.' In this book, which incidentally allows for free copying no strings attached so that people will not perish for lack of knowledge; he makes the following thought-provoking comment:

" Ponder This...

OSAS(Once Saved, always saved) people who especially subscrib to the Calvinistic Westminster Confession see no contradiction in saying we can have full assurance now; then turning around to say if we ever fall away from the faith or ever become apostate, even after a convincing testimony, we prove we were never saved as we thought we were!

In other words, if you turn away from Christ at the very end of your life, even after a convincing testimony for Christ of many years, you show at that point in time that your faith was not real, as you thought it was, but only spurious. Then on the other hand, if that same person comes back he may have a real faith after all! But only his spiritual condition at the very end of his life, as he takes his last breath, will reveal if his faith was the saving kind or not.

Though denied, the essence of the OSAS moderate view, embraced by (Bible teacher's name left out) and others, is: If you ever had true faith, you're saved, but you can never really know until the very end of your life that you had true faith to be saved. Again, they are apprehensive to admit to this, but it's consistent with their view. Remember, if their remains any opportunity in time to become apostate, and one does even after a convincing testimony of many years, then he show he was never really saved to begin with, that is, unless he comes back to the Lord.

The bottom line in this is nothing more than double talk about the full assurance that people like (Bible teacher's name left out) says one can have. Salvation assurance, as OSAS adherents understand it, cannot in reality coexist with the possibility of becoming apostate and thereby proving such a person was never saved to begin with, even at the very beginning when he had a convincing testimony! So in spite of what such OSAS proponents may say, they really don't have any salvation assurance at all, except in name only because time still exists for them to possibly become apostate!..."

Very thought-provoking. Would appreciate your comments.

lightpost 7000

Hello kintups70 - lightpost7000,

In a matter of minutes, you were watched requesting one account being deleted and establishing your new account of lightpost7000. Your new user name changes NOTHING, and the answers are the same in this thread and several others. I could care less about the book being mentioned, and I doubt that anyone else does either because we have the Holy Bible. GOD'S WORD is the only measurement of TRUTH. Man's tags, labels, and denominations wouldn't have anything to do with this question either.

So, you got another mention of the book in, and nothing has changed. I'm not interested in the book in any form, and any links offering sales will be deleted, regardless of ways to get a free copy. Just read the forum rules about advertising and soliciting. If you want to advertise the book, you might try the FREE classifieds on Christians Unite or other advertising methods - NOT THE FORUM.

Edited to Add:  The forum puts a cookie on your computer for identification and give you access for log-ins. The moderator tools show this AND MORE. So, you need to erase your browser cache and delete all your cookies if you want to try this again without being caught IMMEDIATELY. Other moderator tools take longer.

[Shammu]

Hello kintups70 - lightpost7000,

In a matter of minutes, you were watched requesting one account being deleted and establishing your new account of lightpost7000. Your new user name changes NOTHING, and the answers are the same in this thread and several others. I could care less about the book being mentioned, and I doubt that anyone else does either because we have the Holy Bible. GOD'S WORD is the only measurement of TRUTH. Man's tags, labels, and denominations wouldn't have anything to do with this question either.

So, you got another mention of the book in, and nothing has changed. I'm not interested in the book in any form, and any links offering sales will be deleted, regardless of ways to get a free copy. Just read the forum rules about advertising and soliciting. If you want to advertise the book, you might try the FREE classifieds on Christians Unite or other advertising methods - NOT THE FORUM.

Edited to Add:  The forum puts a cookie on your computer for identification and give you access for log-ins. The moderator tools show this AND MORE. So, you need to erase your browser cache and delete all your cookies if you want to try this again without being caught IMMEDIATELY. Other moderator tools take longer.

Hello kintups70 & lightpost7000............. You have been BUSTED!!

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I think that I'll take this opportunity to add a few questions and statements for everyone to think about. All will be based on the PREMISE that a person has been TRULY BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE ---- THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN THE PERSON'S HEART, SO THE SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE PERSON'S HEART ---- THE TIME PERIOD OF SALVATION IS UNDER THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, NOT THE TRIBULATION PERIOD AND NOT THE KINGDOM AGE!

1 - Has this person received the PROMISES OF GOD about his or her SALVATION? YES -- MOST DEFINITELY - AT THE POINT OF SALVATION! What does GOD mean when HE Promises Eternal Life? Can GOD lie, and does GOD ever withdraw HIS Promises? NO!

John 3:15-18 KJV  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


2 - Is Salvation earned or maintained by a man?  NO! Is Salvation a GIFT from GOD based on the completed WORK of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS?  YES! Is Salvation obtained by FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE? YES! Was FAITH IN GOD the same method of Salvation for the Old Testament Saints like Abraham and King David? YES! Did they lose their Salvation if they sinned? NO! Did King David lose his Salvation after committing the death-penalty offense of ADULTERY? NO! Does GOD take HIS GIFTS OR PROMISES BACK? NO!

Romans 6:23 KJV  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


3 - Is Salvation based in any way at all on the good works of man? NO! The THIEF on the CROSS next to JESUS CHRIST had ZERO GOOD works and no time to do good works because he was about to die. All the THIEF had was BELIEF - FAITH in CHRIST, and CHRIST Promised HIM Eternal Life right then.

Ephesians 2:4-10 KJV  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,  5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


4 - What happens if a TRULY BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN has a stroke, gets Alzheimer's, goes insane, gets dementia, or otherwise loses the capability of thinking straightly? I'm obviously talking about Salvation? Does anything happen to the Salvation of that BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN? NO! They are just as SAVED as ever!

5 - Can anything pluck this Christian OUT of SALVATION? NO!

John 10:28-29 KJV  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


See the next post for HOW a LOST PERSON can receive this FREE AND ETERNAL GIFT FROM GOD!

[nChrist]

GOOD NEWS!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

[lightpost7000]

Black-eyed-peas, and others,

Glad to see you read my post. For starters, out of necessity, I needed to change my email address from the previous(kintups) to the one you now see, for reasons completely unrelated to this website. I am reorganizing my email addresses. One of them is so full in the provider's database with emails (from many years) that I needed to start over again with a fresh new email address. My kintups70 address is being used now strictly for communication with the homeless advocacy network I communicate with daily. So, feel free to email me personally on the following address at lightpost7000@yahoo.com if your so inclined. I have nothing to hide, and no hidden agendas. I didn't see any real reason to explain my connection with the kintups post. Certainly, I did NOT state that it was not me; I simply stated that in a previous post, kintups stated... So no harm done.

As for Dan Corner's book, I am not soliciting his book. I was recently given a copy of this book by a good friend. I read it with an open mind and open Bible.
As for not needing any other book than the Bible; I agree to a point. Certainly, my faith is built solely upon the written word of God. Yet, isn't it rather ironic that this web site advertises and promotes magazines, books (KP. Yohannans book of which I read years ago, and thought was wonderful!), etc. all of which is found in your average Christian bookstore---not that this is wrong. But who among us would state that we don't use lexicons, concordances, and even biblically-based books regularly to help us think through Scripture and other issues? The average bible college or seminary charges an enormous amount of money for books in an effort to understandTHE book. So I am about doubtful of the strength of your statement.

It is rather strange that you did not comment on the substance of the excerpt that I typed (not pasted!) and no one even bothered to answer the questions that were raised. After all, this is a 'debate forum' or at least is so titled. Why does one become angry when another simply challenges a proposition that has been stated repeatedly; namely that it is unbiblical to say that one can lose their salvation?

If you read my first two posts (under kintups) carefully; please note that I used namely Scripture in support of my arguments. The fact that you state you really don't care about what this book by Corner says tells me pretty clearly that you are not open to true debate, other wise you would have answered the questions raised by Corner in the post.

For those of you wondering, I have absolutely no connection with Dan Corner or his ministry. I've never talked with or met the man. If however, I would have quoted someone in favor of the Calvinistic dogma, I highly doubt that I would have been opposed so sharply. Personally, I don't like the way Corner criticizes other Bible teachers and even in my opinion, villifyng them. To me this is not right. Yet, he does clearly state that he wants no one to perish in their sins because of a false hope. The truth is Scripture admonishes us to "Examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith." If this causes someone to examine themselves then truly this is quite possibly eternally beneficial.

As for quoting from books; fine, I wont do that anymore. However, if anyone else quotes from a book or article(other than the Bible) on this site, even if it is consistent with your beliefs, I would hope that you would just as sharply rebuke them.

Believe me, after years of believing in the 'OSAS' ideology, it made me very uncomfortable too to realize that I may have been wrong on my understanding of this matter. Needles to say, I am not in this to convert people to my way of thinking as some of you may think. But I am seeking to only kindly dialogue with people on this and numerous other issues in my life before God.

Striving for agape,

kintups70/lightpost7000

[David_james]

You did make it sound like you and kin weren't the same person. It wouldn't have hurt to say you were kin.

Very nice sob story btw. I am very familiar with these stories that raises themselves and puts down others.

[nChrist]

Black-eyed-peas, and others,

Glad to see you read my post. For starters, out of necessity, I needed to change my email address from the previous(kintups) to the one you now see, for reasons completely unrelated to this website. I am reorganizing my email addresses. One of them is so full in the provider's database with emails (from many years) that I needed to start over again with a fresh new email address. My kintups70 address is being used now strictly for communication with the homeless advocacy network I communicate with daily. So, feel free to email me personally on the following address at lightpost7000@yahoo.com if your so inclined. I have nothing to hide, and no hidden agendas. I didn't see any real reason to explain my connection with the kintups post. Certainly, I did NOT state that it was not me; I simply stated that in a previous post, kintups stated... So no harm done.

As for Dan Corner's book, I am not soliciting his book. I was recently given a copy of this book by a good friend. I read it with an open mind and open Bible.
As for not needing any other book than the Bible; I agree to a point. Certainly, my faith is built solely upon the written word of God. Yet, isn't it rather ironic that this web site advertises and promotes magazines, books (KP. Yohannans book of which I read years ago, and thought was wonderful!), etc. all of which is found in your average Christian bookstore---not that this is wrong. But who among us would state that we don't use lexicons, concordances, and even biblically-based books regularly to help us think through Scripture and other issues? The average bible college or seminary charges an enormous amount of money for books in an effort to understandTHE book. So I am about doubtful of the strength of your statement.

It is rather strange that you did not comment on the substance of the excerpt that I typed (not pasted!) and no one even bothered to answer the questions that were raised. After all, this is a 'debate forum' or at least is so titled. Why does one become angry when another simply challenges a proposition that has been stated repeatedly; namely that it is unbiblical to say that one can lose their salvation?

If you read my first two posts (under kintups) carefully; please note that I used namely Scripture in support of my arguments. The fact that you state you really don't care about what this book by Corner says tells me pretty clearly that you are not open to true debate, other wise you would have answered the questions raised by Corner in the post.

For those of you wondering, I have absolutely no connection with Dan Corner or his ministry. I've never talked with or met the man. If however, I would have quoted someone in favor of the Calvinistic dogma, I highly doubt that I would have been opposed so sharply. Personally, I don't like the way Corner criticizes other Bible teachers and even in my opinion, villifyng them. To me this is not right. Yet, he does clearly state that he wants no one to perish in their sins because of a false hope. The truth is Scripture admonishes us to "Examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith." If this causes someone to examine themselves then truly this is quite possibly eternally beneficial.

As for quoting from books; fine, I wont do that anymore. However, if anyone else quotes from a book or article(other than the Bible) on this site, even if it is consistent with your beliefs, I would hope that you would just as sharply rebuke them.

Believe me, after years of believing in the 'OSAS' ideology, it made me very uncomfortable too to realize that I may have been wrong on my understanding of this matter. Needles to say, I am not in this to convert people to my way of thinking as some of you may think. But I am seeking to only kindly dialogue with people on this and numerous other issues in my life before God.

Striving for agape,

kintups70/lightpost7000

Read what is already posted, the vast majority being original - not cut and paste. So, just repeat the answers already given, and you have the answers. In other words - DITTO - DITTO - nothing has still changed and won't. DITTO on BUSTED also - DITTO on not interested - DITTO on DITTO. If you want another DITTO on what's already been answered by many WITH ORIGINAL POSTS, just ask for another DITTO. Use the forum search and you'll have enough material to study for a long time- NEARLY ALL ORIGINAL. Just in case, I've decided to go ahead and give you another DITTO now, so DITTO. So, you already have your answer if you ask again. Don't push it on being sneaky or playing games. You won't get any other warnings. If you're really interested in this topic, study what's already on the forum.

[Soldier4Christ]

I do realize that this is the debate section and it is more than obvious that some people love to argue theology. Of all the subjects in the Bible, Salvation is the most important one. It is not a subject that Christians should be bickering over like small children that insist they are right and all others are wrong. Salvation is not only the most important subject but it is also the most clear.

The parable of the sower is oft misunderstood with those thinking that an individual that "dureth awhile" is being called someone that is saved. If that seed is not placed in the good ground then it is doomed from the start. It receives not the nourishment that it needs and in fact is dying before it even begins.

Jesus Christ is our mainstay. If we do not build on that foundation (the good ground) then we are indeed wasting our time. We are like a fish out of water, flailing about without hope, attempting to make it on our own. Jesus Christ has promised us that if we believe on Him that no one or nothing can take us from His hand. NO ONE OR NOTHING! That includes us.

I've heard that some say "but I don't have enough faith." It is not about a whole lot of faith. Remember what Jesus Christ said about having "faith as a grain of mustard seed." Again I say it is not about a whole lot of faith. It is about the works of Him within us. He did it all, it is about His works and none of our own.

[David_james]

Jesus Christ is our mainstay. If we do not build on that foundation (the good ground) then we are indeed wasting our time. We are like a fish out of water, flailing about without hope, attempting to make it on our own. Jesus Christ has promised us that if we believe on Him that no one or nothing can take us from His hand. NO ONE OR NOTHING! That includes us.

I've heard that some say "but I don't have enough faith." It is not about a whole lot of faith. Remember what Jesus Christ said about having "faith as a grain of mustard seed." Again I say it is not about a whole lot of faith. It is about the works of Him within us. He did it all, it is about His works and none of our own.

Thank you Brother

[Brother Jerry]

Kintups or whatever.

First let me state this.  It is quite obvious that you started the new email address with the express intent to create a new identity.  Because you can change your email address in your profile.  So just consolidating email addresses is no reason to create a new account.  And this is also supported by your first post under new alias where you refer to Kintups in the third person and not as if that identity was yours thus you again are apparently attempting to create a new profile.  I am not going to say that you were attempting a deception, because only God knows your heart.  But I can say that I take anything you say with a grain of salt because to me it appears you were trying to deceive me.

As far as your argument let me ask a simple question.  If I can lose my salvation and gain it again, then who is actually doing the work of gaining and losing it?  Under the Biblical concept of OSAS God is in control of a persons salvation.  Under any other mentality the control of salvation is put into the hands of the person.  And THAT is strictly unBiblical.