Once Saved Always Saved???

[doc]

The Truth always lies within the covers of our Bibles.  Both pov's would claim that - but what they do with what they read is mankind's greatest weakness.  Predetermined bias will always find Scripture to support its claims thru missinterpretations, out of context quotes, carnal motives for political power, even pretending ignorance.  These motives produce those doctrines of man and it is satan's plan for the destruction of God's church.

Paul warned long ago: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron..." 1 Timothy 4:1-2  NKJV

Fight the good fight, brothers.

[nChrist]

Hello Doc,

Brother, please put that portion of Scripture in context, and you will discover what Paul was talking about. He was talking about faith in the doctrines that they were taught, not faith In JESUS CHRIST. Look at the comparison just before it and the examples right after it. Taking portions of Scripture out of context many times leads to gross misunderstanding.

You should also remember that Paul showed righteous anger in outsiders trying to mire the Church down in Jewish law again as opposed to the Gospel of the Grace of God. You will see a very plain teaching of the law immediately following that shows a contrast between Law in what a person can eat or not eat and in Grace where all made by God is good to eat. If you will remember, Paul had a great deal of trouble with Jews trying to convert his congregations back to the Law. SO, we aren't talking about loss of Salvation, rather of people harming their fellowship by departing from sound doctrine they had been taught. Several Verses before your quote and several verses after your quote should put things in perspective for you.

Some portions of Scripture require reading much more than just a few Verses before or after the quote, and some portions require ancient word study. As an example, "fall" is many times rendered stumble. Sin is a "stumble", but sin does not cause loss of Salvation for a Christian. In this case, we would be talking about following Law, Jewish Traditions, and ordinances that were not part of the Gospel of God's Grace. By the way, to help you just a little bit more - they thought that they were living in the last times. After all, the Messiah had come. I haven't been to bed yet, so I'm too tired to give you more tonight.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:16 NASB  nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

[Soldier4Christ]

The question on the OSAS debate was asked of Mike Kellogg of the Moody Radio Pastor. I liked his response and must agree with him on it.

_____________

I believe that the death of Christ for my sins on the cross is a finished work, and is not a matter of “You must be born again, and again, and again.” As the hymn beautifully states, “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe / Sin had left a crimson stain / He washed it white as snow.” By His death He saved me, in His grace He keeps me.

The truth is that when I first became a Christian, I had a difficult time with this issue too, because, frankly, I didn't always act saved, or think saved, or feel saved. It was terribly frustrating for me. But then I began to realize the truth of the Scripture: that I was saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:. God called me to Himself, not because I was living in a godly way, but because I was a sinner and needed Him, and I couldn't save myself. It wasn't good works. Titus 3:5 (KJV) says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

And if that is true, then He has made Himself responsible for keeping me by that same grace. God could and would keep me unto Himself. See Jude 1:24-25 (KJV): “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy . . . Amen.”

That's His grace. This promise is for all Christians, those who are indwelt by the spirit of God (see 1 Cor. 6:19, 20). I guess, friend, that while some verses seem to indicate that it's possible to lose your salvation, I would lean on God's grace. Actually, worrying about eternal security and arguing about it is a moot point, if you are seeking by God's grace to glorify Him and at the same time enjoying the presence of His company.

Concentrating on being God's man or woman will cause you to walk triumphantly and securely in this old world.


AMEN!

[nChrist]

Amen Pastor Roger!

There is NOTHING but GLORY for GOD in ALL things and NONE for man. When one looks at the HUGE list of things that are OF and BY JESUS CHRIST ALONE, we should have love and thanks for our ALL IN ALL, JESUS CHRIST! Our "quickening" (immediate translation) to and IN HIM is HIS Work. GOD began the Good Work in us, and GOD will finish that Work, even to the point of giving us a Glorified Body at His appointed time.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 11:25 NASB  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

[Jenn4God]

Sorry to jump in so late in the conversation. The first problem you are having is the bible you are using. The NIV is the worst possible bible to use as it contains a very large amount of errors. If you are interested in studying up on this i can post links here for you to follow once i have permission to do so. The answer to your question however is YES once saved, always saved is true. Your salvation cannot be taken from you once it is obtained. I recommend using the Authorized KJV. It is the most accurate.

[nChrist]

Sorry to jump in so late in the conversation. The first problem you are having is the bible you are using. The NIV is the worst possible bible to use as it contains a very large amount of errors. If you are interested in studying up on this i can post links here for you to follow once i have permission to do so. The answer to your question however is YES once saved, always saved is true. Your salvation cannot be taken from you once it is obtained. I recommend using the Authorized KJV. It is the most accurate.

Hello Jenn4God,

The degrees of accuracy between various translations of the Holy Bible is a matter of opinion by men. We don't do Bible bashing here. The KJV is just another excellent translation of the ancient texts, but it is just a translation with errors. This is why people who try to seriously study the Bible still use ancient texts and language helps when studying difficult portions of Scripture. Many would disagree with you that the KJV is the most accurate, and they would be right in many portions of Scripture. However, that's not material here since we don't do Bible bashing.

We have some argument threads here about various translations of the Holy Bible, and they were a waste of time and simply made people angry. I used the KJV for over 50 years, but I now use the NASB and think it is more accurate. BUT, again, that's not material because we don't Bible bash here. When the arguments start about various translations, the weaknesses and errors of the KJV are also shown. There are quite a few excellent translations of the Holy Bible, and the KJV and NIV are only two of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 105:3-4 NASB  Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.  Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

[Soldier4Christ]

Jenn,

Although I prefer to use the KJV myself I agree totally with what Brother Tom said. Disagreements about most Bible versions do nothing but disparage the word of God.

We are better off teaching what the word has to say to us rather than to teach Bible versions.

[Jenn4God]

I wasn't bashing any bible. I was just stating that the AKJV is more accurate than the NIV. Everyone has the free will to use what bible they choose. I was just recommending that if the poster was having problems while using the NIV to try the AKJV. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Soldier4Christ]

"This Bible is better than that Bible" are statements that conclude Bible bashing. Such statements bring into question the validity of the Bible which causes even further Bible bashing statements. It is just such statements that atheists love to see and hear. For this reason we have to be careful how and what we say.

Yes, I agree that if a person has difficulty understanding one then perhaps a cross reference may be in order. There are many people today that do not understand the proper useage of such words as thee, thou .....    But to say that one is better than another does nothing to glorify God and His word.

[Shammu]

The question on the OSAS debate was asked of Mike Kellogg of the Moody Radio Pastor. I liked his response and must agree with him on it.

_____________

I believe that the death of Christ for my sins on the cross is a finished work, and is not a matter of “You must be born again, and again, and again.” As the hymn beautifully states, “Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe / Sin had left a crimson stain / He washed it white as snow.” By His death He saved me, in His grace He keeps me.

The truth is that when I first became a Christian, I had a difficult time with this issue too, because, frankly, I didn't always act saved, or think saved, or feel saved. It was terribly frustrating for me. But then I began to realize the truth of the Scripture: that I was saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:. God called me to Himself, not because I was living in a godly way, but because I was a sinner and needed Him, and I couldn't save myself. It wasn't good works. Titus 3:5 (KJV) says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

And if that is true, then He has made Himself responsible for keeping me by that same grace. God could and would keep me unto Himself. See Jude 1:24-25 (KJV): “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy . . . Amen.”

That's His grace. This promise is for all Christians, those who are indwelt by the spirit of God (see 1 Cor. 6:19, 20). I guess, friend, that while some verses seem to indicate that it's possible to lose your salvation, I would lean on God's grace. Actually, worrying about eternal security and arguing about it is a moot point, if you are seeking by God's grace to glorify Him and at the same time enjoying the presence of His company.

Concentrating on being God's man or woman will cause you to walk triumphantly and securely in this old world.


AMEN!

AMEN Pastor Roger!!

[doc]

SO, we aren't talking about loss of Salvation, rather of people harming their fellowship by departing from sound doctrine they had been taught. Several Verses before your quote and several verses after your quote should put things in perspective for you.

Brother BEP,

Context (Latin - with weaving) and I are old friends.. And your point is respectfully considered in this issue. “The Great Apostasy” is the non-Biblical heading in my NKJV for this chapter and it is going to happen, if it isn't already..

Paul wrote to Timothy: “As I urged you when I went into Macedonia — remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.   

Might this apply to the Mormon practice today, ....?

He went on to say those who departed from the Christian faith were: “...speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.”   

Could these issues apply to the RCC celibacy practices and to vegans?

Paul continues: “If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.  But reject profane and old wives' fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness.”

Might this include abominable perverted rumors, Brown's da Vinci Code book and the Prayer of Jabez?   http://www.forgottenword.org/wof.html   

As to your opinion of “departing from the faith”, I expect this from any Calvinist - the way I was raised, by the way.  OSAS can go nowhere but the way you defend, but everybody else believes this verse says exactly what it means.  For instance, Clarke states:
[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai ... tees pisteoos. They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.  (from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

How do you justify falling from grace in Gal 5:4, or those warnings in 2 Thess 2:3 and 2 Pet 3:17?   (I already covered the warnings in the book of Hebrews)

They are there for a reason, BEP to warn us of the possibility of true Christians falling away, not to cause us to question our standing with God through His son Jesus.  The OT concept of backsliding belongs only there - it does not apply to NT Christians.
 
As an aside, I do not believe we “lose” our salvation, I believe we must intentionally turn our back on God, reject Him and His Son and never consider repentance.  It is a choice, just like coming to Him in the first place.

Trustingly,
doc   

[nChrist]

Hello Doc,

First, I'm not a Calvinist. Second, I won't argue endlessly, as there are more productive things to do. I'll end my part in this discussion by saying that someone is in serious error who believes that any power can cause GOD to break a promise already given and undo a list of things HE has already done toward those promises. I'll just mention two of many:  1) quickening (translated) into the BODY OF CHRIST;  2) SEALING the heart of the believer with THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.

Misapplication of Scripture causes all kinds of problems, one being no assurance of Salvation and one being the doubting that GOD will fulfill HIS Promises. There are a host of other problems, but these fit this issue well. There is a long list of things that happen at the moment of Salvation, and many Promises of GOD are given at the same moment. I'm positive that GOD wants us to have 100% Assurance of Salvation, and I feel sorry for people who don't have it. I'm through arguing this, so you have the last word unless someone else wants to argue with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

GOOD NEWS!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

[Len]

Spot on, BP! AMEN!

[Brother Jerry]

Agreed BEP.

I remember those verses which state that we are in the Fathers hands and that nothing may snatch us from it. 

I then read the arguements of a lost a salvation and thinking of how we can turn our backs on it and in essence we can leap out of the hands of the Father.  "Our leaving is not anyone snatching us out" is what they say.  But this is still placing one's self over that of God.  The Bible tells us that no one may take us.  That is NO ONE...and unless you yourself are NO ONE then you yourself cannot take yourself from the Father.  The verse does not say NO ONE but you, it just says NO ONE.

There are verses that were mentioned that have words like sealed.  You will find the word sealed listed 26 times in the KJV.  The word re-sealed is not mentioned once.  If something is sealed only once.  Everything after that is re-sealed. 

One thing to always remember when dealing with the Bible or anything else really.  The simplist explianation is usually the best and correct one.  And all other scripture when read in proper context and in light of other scripture is in support of OSAS scenario.   

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Jerry. It's great to see you back on the forum.