Once Saved Always Saved???

[EndTimeEvangelist]

The key word here in the KJV is "thinketh". In the BBE is "seems to himself" and the ISV is "the person who thinks he is standing securely". We see in this chapter that it is speaking of those who are idolaters, fornicators and those that tempt Christ.

1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

We are being told that we cannot be followers of God if we are followers after those things of the Devil. We cannot be followers of God if we have our eyes set on the things of this world.

No, Paul was not speaking to idolaters. He was speaking to the members of the church at Corinth.

The Apostle Paul was speaking to saved Christian believers, not unsaved unbelievers.

People who believe the eternal security lie will do anything to justify their license to sin. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Believe what you will but eternal security is not a license to sin. Again I point out the following verse in this chapter.

1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Yes Paul was talking to the church at Corinth. Just because people are in a church does not mean that they are saved, born again Christians. There are many people that profess to be Christians and attend church regularly that are in no way a true born again Christian.

I strongly suggest that you do a full study on the entire chapter. I also suggest a few other links already here on the forum:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=8959.msg111974#msg111974

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=550.0

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=12230.0

As I said you can believe what you want as for me I will believe the promise of God:


Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Praise God for His wonderful mercies!

[Brother Jerry]

Evangelist

First let me state this.
God's promise is not that if we are faithful we will be guaranteed material wealth.  When you read the Bible in it's context you will see this.  WHen you learn to interpret the apparently complex verses in light of the simpler ones your eyes shall be opened.  And of you think that only material wealth such as money or good health are signs of being faithful and getting God's blessings then I would remind you of Lazarus who was covered in sores the dogs licked, and lived for droppings from the rich mans table.  The angels carried him off to heaven as they will for us.  He was not rich with gold, nor blessed with good health...but he was blessed by God and lived in God's promises.  The thief on the cross with Jesus may have had health up until he was hanging, did not have money or he would not have been stealing from people.  But Jesus said he would be dining in heave that night because of God's promise.

To place our salvation in our hands in any way shape or form such as you are want to do by stating the gift can be returned to God is doing just that.  Paul explains in Romans 5 that God's grace is a gift to us.  Paul explains in the earlier chapters of Romans that we are all sinners and that we can do nothing on our own to save our souls.  In Ephesians we also see that salvation is a gift given by the grace of God and not of our own merits.  To state in any way shape or form that we can return this gift means that we can then earn it again.  And if we could earn salvation in any way based on our own merits means that Jesus died in vain.  Jesus himself used simple words like "forever" and "eternal" for a reason.  Because that is forever and for eternity, and not temporary or as long as we feel like it. 

Just as man is born in to sin and a sin nature due to the fall of man and Adam.  Nicodemus had a problem with this concept of birth as well.  If you look back in Genesis to the generations of Adam you will find that everything after Adam was born in the likeness of Adam and not of God.  There were two men ever born in an image of God was Adam and Jesus.  Gen 5:3 "...and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image;..."  After Adam we were all born sinners.  Then Jesus spoke of another birth.  Being born again in the image of God.  When we are saved we experience that second birth.  That birth into the family of Jesus.  A spiritual birth.  There is talk over and over of how we are new creatures.  Just as we can only physically be born once we can also only be spiritually born once as well.  And the whole of the Bible supports this.

You are right in stating my salvation is a license to sin.  You know I killed all the people I wanted to kill today.  I stole all the money I wanted to steal today.  I slept with all the other women besides my wife I wanted to today.  Being a child of God I just do not want to do all those things.  And praise God for it. 

I would recommend you read your Bible and study.  Go to it in prayer that Jesus will help you along.  The Bible tells us that if we go to Him in prayer that He will provide us the knowledge and understanding.  Follow up on the posts mentioned and I am sure there are others. 

[EndTimeEvangelist]

Evangelist I would recommend you read your Bible and study.  Go to it in prayer that Jesus will help you along.  The Bible tells us that if we go to Him in prayer that He will provide us the knowledge and understanding.  Follow up on the posts mentioned and I am sure there are others. 

I know all the specifics of the doctrine of Eternal Security.

I was saved in a Free Will  Baptist Church On June 10 1990.

Since that day, I have read the Bible, 23 times, from Genesis
to Revelation. so I am quite familiar with the Scriptures.

I graduated in the top 5 students with a 4.0 garde average from a
 Faith based Bible college in Arkansas in 2000.

I have studied the doctrine of eternal security extensivelly,
and have found that there are too many faults in it, to justify it's credibility.

Main point being, all of Gods word is NOT used as an accurate and acceptable
foundational basis for it's authencity.

Let him who thinks he is secure be careful because he is capable of failing.

Only our past sisn have been forgiven, no future sin can be forgiven until that sin
has been confessed, common sense tells us that.

No person can lose their salvation, I agree 100% with that fact

BUT anyone can forfeit their salvation.



satan knows the word very well, he instituted the OSAS teaching, Not God.

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modified to remove portions that blatantly disregard forum rules.

moderator

[Brother Jerry]

One thing that is in your post is a whole lot of I's.  And all of the certificates, diplomas, or kudo's you want to toss up there do nto mean a hill of beans.  One thing that is missing is not once do I see prayer listed anywhere on there.  Not once do I see that you went to God seeking wisdom and advice.

Now as to the issue of losing or forfieting salvation.  I am not certain how far into it PR and the other mods want to allow this discussion to go.  But if you are willing to post your Biblical references to show any possible way in which man can turn over his salvation to God only to possibly get it back again later, I know I would be glad to see it.

[Soldier4Christ]

Brother Jerry, I have no objection to a furtherance of this discussion as long as it remains peaceful.

I agree with your assessment ... all the education in the world does not equate an understanding or wisdom in the word of God. That comes from God alone and can be given to an individual with no education at all. I have met many a young person that had more wisdom and understanding than many an individual with a Doctorate in Theology.

[daniel1212av]

Worthy indeed is the Lamb "that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing"  (Rev 5:12). And in the light of "so great salvation" i certainly am guilty of not redering unto the Lord according to the beneft thereof" (2Chr. 32:25), and i must be more dilligent  in surrender to Him. . Hezekaih got 15 more years added to his earthly life, but which did not turn out to be blessing, as his heart was lifted up, and he basically cast his (or God's) "pearls before swine," showing the princes of Babylon "his precious things, the silver, and the gold, and the spices, and the precious ointment, and all the house of his armour, and all that was found in his treasures" (is. 39), which would later be carried to Babylon.

Though this debate concerns losing salvation, the above verse does not directly spreak to that, but that we have far more grace given us and are thus far more motivation -a nd acountablity- to serve "the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things" (Deu 28:47; the opposite of which is why they suffered such terible chastisment).

As for the actual OSAS subject, i think Gal. 5:1-4 is the strongest verse for the probationist postion (mine?), while Jn. 18:9 is one of the best forthe prevervationist view. And what is clearer, is that that whjile we are saved by grace thru faith, not on any merit of own, a faith that does not overall  follow Christ (Jn. 10:27-29) is not Biblical saving faith. If we rest in Jesus as Savior, then we will follow Him as Lord, as that is who and what our object of faith is (Rm. 10:9). It is such "things that accompany salvation" (Heb. 6:9) that the great assurance verse of 1Jn. 5:13 refers to as "these things."

Praise ye the Lord.

[Soldier4Christ]

I'm glad that you mentioned 1Jn. 5:13. "These things", what are some of these things that are spoken of?

1. he that overcometh the world is he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God

2. the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth

3. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself

4. God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

5. He that hath the Son hath life

6. that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

1Jn 5:14  And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jn 5:15  And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Our confidence is IN HIM. We have this confidence that He has given us "eternal life" and that "neither shall any man pluck" us out of His hand. Any man, NO man can pluck us out of His hand.

Does this mean that we can freely sin?

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

To truly follow Him we cannot freely live in sin.

[daniel1212av]

Good to see your response.

#1, 4 -6  of your response are declarative facts, but must be seen in context with things that describe what  overcoming the world entails, and what manner of believing assures that one has the son and eternal life.   

#2 + 3 are  true but subjective, which must be understood in the light of the objective word.

6. that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It is incontrovertable that we are saved by faith, which I John confirms, and to God be the glory for that, but  I John also delineates what manner of faith it is by which one can have confidence that he is saved.

In this cursory examination i see things that describe what saving faith consists of, such as

1. Confession of sin, in the context of faith in Christ: Jn. 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2. Keepings God's commandments (aka keeping His word): And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.    (1 John 2:3-5). And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.    (1 John 3:24).

3. Loving, not hating, his brothers, which pratically is shown by meeting legitimate needs: He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.    (1 John 2:9-10). But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?    (1 John 3:17). If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (1 John 4:20).  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.    (1 John 5:1)

4. Having the word of Christ dwell in us: I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.    (1 John 2:14b)

5. Doing righteousness, as the word of God describes: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.    (1 John 2:29)

6. Seeking to be as pure as Christ: ... when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure (1 John 3:2b, 3).

7. Practicing sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [as a practice]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.    (1 John 3:9, 10).

8. An effective prayer life: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight  (1 John 3:22).

9. Actively witnessing for Christ: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.    (1 John 4:14)

10. Overcoming the world, which excludes those who love the world, seeking pleasure, possessions and power/prestige over the glory of god and His pleasure, kingdom and power.  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.    (1 John 2:15). For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.    (1 John 5:4).

[walkwithHim4]

hello everyone,

          I'll admit I didn't read everyones post but what I did read I didn't see anyone who posted:

John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

I had actually gotten into a discussion with one of my friends at school because my initial belief was that if you completely turn your back on God then your disowning him. But she told me about this passage and I may only be 16 but it's in God's word so I didn't even think twice about it. I may not be a pastor or youth leader but isn't this verse substantial enough to prove that once saved is always saved? plz I want to know what older and wiser people have to say about my reasoning for believing what I believe

         Kyle

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Kyle,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

Yes, that is exactly what it is saying in that verse. God is able to keep that which has been given to Him.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Brother Jerry]

Kyle,

Also a hearty welcome to CU.

And you are exactly correct.  The verse is so completely simple that it may stand on it's own and need no further supporting verses to get the point across.

But typical to man we like to overcomplicate things.  And those that believe you may turn your back on salvation will use that verse to say "See it says no-one can snatch you from God, but it does not say anything about you walking away from God."  But they fail to realize that when God says NO ONE He means it, we are not stronger than God and thus able to break His grip anymore than anyone else is.

Again Welcome to the forums and  you are off to a great start, keep up the Godly understanding and you never know...it could be Pastor Kyle

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I must apologize for the delay in the study that I promised. Health changed my plans, and I don't know when I'll be able to do what I felt led to do. I'll do it LORD Willing when HE enables me with the necessary health and concentration.

In the meantime, I'll remind everyone that there are many things that can be lost or impacted for Christians that ARE NOT SALVATION! Rewards that are over and above Salvation is just one example. An example that effects us right now in this life is the level and quantity of our fellowship with our LORD and MASTER. It should be obvious to most Christians that what we do or don't do dynamically impacts our day to day relationship with our LORD and Saviour. Long-term Christians will also know there is chastisement for those who don't yield to the Will of GOD in this life. Many will consider this chastisement as a form of punishment, BUT more mature Christians will recognize it as a form of GOD'S Love to help conform us to HIS Way. HIS Way is always the best for us, so we should expect chastisement and loss when we stray from HIS Way. HIS Way is the only acceptable Way, AND that would be in ALL THINGS. There is no way that a Christian can measure up to GOD'S Standards, so we should remember the clear teaching of the Bible, "Those whom HE Loves, HE chastises." This is not talking about the loss or gain of Salvation.

Mature Christians ALL know that Salvation is a one-time event that is NOT on the installment plan. The PERFECT WORK was finished on the CROSS by JESUS CHRIST. Our work is NOT for Salvation, rather as a matter of love and appreciation to our LORD and Saviour. If our work is done for any other reason, it is burned up as useless. We have NOTHING of any worth to pay any portion of the payment for Salvation because ALL of the PAYMENT for SALVATION must be PERFECT AND HOLY. JESUS CHRIST had the only means to pay such a PERFECT AND HOLY PRICE, and HE DID on the CROSS. Apart from the blood of JESUS, we are nothing, lost, and bound for the fires of hell. When we accept the PERFECT GIFT of GOD - JESUS CHRIST - we have the Promises of GOD right then and forever - Eternal Life. At the moment of Salvation, it is indeed finished, and we are a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. No power in the universe can pluck us out of HIS MIGHTY HANDS. There is only ONE SALVATION, and the Promises of GOD are ALL in effect in a moment. The PROMISES OF GOD ARE YEA!, AMEN!, DONE! There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in CHRIST, AND new believers are QUICKENED - TRANSLATED into the BODY OF CHRIST at the moment of SALVATION forever! The quality and quantity of our fellowship with GOD in this life is up to us, how we yield, and what we do. Our rewards over and above SALVATION are also up to us, BUT once we belong to JESUS - HIM POSSESSING us forever is not up to us. We are no longer our own - we were bought with a price - we were delivered, AND the BLOOD OF CHRIST on the CROSS was and is the PERFECT AND ETERNAL PAYMENT. We don't keep ourselves because we no longer belong to ourselves. We belong to JESUS CHRIST, and HE keeps us.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS Unspeakable GIFT - JESUS CHRIST - our LORD and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:20 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen!

[JeffTheRef]

I believe that once someone is born of the Spirit they cannot lose their salvation.   They are so on fire for God and live in His presence daily and it is a joy to be around these people.   I tell you something, there is nothing else to turn to!  Yeeee haaaa! Hallelujah!