Once Saved Always Saved???

[Len]

DOC: Len (sorry about the k) and PR,

LEN: Hehe. No sweat. I get it a lot.

DOC Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

Where did the “having been” come from Len?  I can't find that reading in any version I have.  It is not in any Koine Greek mss. either.  It seems to me to be editorialized by the same kind of folks that say “since” instead of “if indeed” in this same verse. OSAS is so powerful a desire in mankind that many assurance verses have to be adjusted to comply with this misinterpretation of Scripture.   (What is O.G., Len?)

LEN: You are quite correct. My bad. I had found some old notes and "...having been..." was part of them but not part of O.G. (original Greek) version. But it still does not change the message.

DOC: The issue of continuing to be faithful after our salvation is demonstrated in Romans - in a good translation - where Paul says: “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”  Romans 7:25-8:2  NKJV

As condemnation is the opposite of justification, we can see what Paul is trying to say here.  Any true Christian who intentionally and habitually turns his back on Christ and chooses to “walk in his flesh” jeopardizes his justification.  Now, because God is our only judge, He knows how long and how much of this behavior one must commit to before he has changed his destination.  The contrast between life and death (Spirit/flesh  - Law of God/Law of sin) is unmistakable here.  Paul is not talking of initial decisions here, he is addressing our post-salvation life styles.

LEN: Agreed, in part. This is one Scripture that addresses this issue of those who have seemingly been saved but "fall away". It was one I had looked for for my last post but could not find it. It just so happens it was covered this very morning at my church. Take a look at 1 John 2:19-25. "They went out from us but did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what He promised us - even eternal life."

DOC: Flesh or Spirit walking is a day to day choice all Christians must make.  As we mature as born again Christians God desires we progress in our sanctification - become more holy - more set apart for His work.  Grow up in Him.  The Hebrew  writer says: “... we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.  For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”    Hebrews 5:11- 14 NKJV

LEN: Exactly. For the believer, it has to do with maturity and growth, not for regaining salvation (which was "finished " - Jesus' words -  at Calvary) through works.

DOC: By the way, we do not “loose our salvation” as if we lost a coin thru a hole in our pocket - we decidedly give it away by turning around again (reconvert) - turning our backs on our savior - “...trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”   Hebrews 10:29 NKJV

LEN: Lose it or throw it away, salvation cannot be gained by works. Why would Jesus go through Calvary if He could show the way and we could work our way to eternity? No, He didn't come to show the way. He became the Way. THE Way. T-H-E Way. The ONLY Way. "Christ died for our sins, once and for all." There is not one half of one single solitary thing we can do to make it happen.

DOC: Why do you folks think these verses are in our Bibles.  Jesus said the Way is narrow and few are on it !  Being a true, heartfelt and obedient Christian is not an easy thing.  A.W. Tozer said the teaching of a “Smooth Cross” was shame in his day.  His cross has many splinters and it hurts to get up on it daily.  Didn't Paul tell us to do that?

LEN: Those verses are there because they are true. Many who call themselves Christians do so, not because they are Christians but because they think that since they have never physically murdered, don't habitually lie, go to church every Sunday (or twice a year), tithe, have "walked the aisle", been dunked by a preacher, or have a family member who does all that stuff. They think they can just claim to be and be saved. They think that just because they know about Christ...believe He exists...that they are saved. "Even the demons believe and shudder." But they do not KNOW Him in a saving way. "Now this is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." When we know Him in that way, we HAVE eternal life...right now..."once and for all". THEN comes the maturation...the growth.

[Len]

Thanks for stepping in there, PR.

Doc, if you have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, look up all the references to salvation with the the key word being "know". We can never know if we have salvation if there is any chance that we may have not repented of some slight sin. By "slight", I mean one which we may be dealing with but does not lead to death...such as speeding or dealing with anger we may have for a brother in Christ. Those little things are as big of a sin as murder in the eyes of God. And according to what you have posted, a believer can be doomed to eternity in the lake of fire. I just don't see that in Scripture...and I have looked.

My obedience is not obedience to keep my salvation. It is obedience as a response in appreciation of a sacrifice by a Holy God who gave up His only Begotten Son rather than give me what I so rightly deserve.

Praise Jesus Christ that He looked down from the cross with a mercy-filled heart and took my sin "once and for all" that I might spend all of eternity with Him. What joy fills my heart, mind, soul, and body when I think about that incredible gift, so undeserved by me, a sinner till He takes me home.   

All glory and honor and praise to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Way, the Truth, the Life.

[nChrist]

Brothers,

I've argued this issue before and took it too far, so I know that I'll never do that again. This appears to be a pleasant discussion, so I just want to add a few thoughts into the mix.

1 - There are NO holy Christians who can live without sin. There just isn't any living man in this short life who fits the description of Holy and without sin except JESUS CHRIST. So, if living without sin was a condition for salvation, no man or woman would be saved - NOT ONE. This was one of the primary purposes of JESUS and the Cross.

2 - There are many areas of the Bible that make heavy comparisons between Law and Grace. There are also many areas of the Bible that pertain to BEFORE THE CROSS.

3 - There are many areas of the Bible that speak of things that make our joy more full, NOT SALVATION OR LOSS OR SALVATION.

4 - There are all kinds of punishment that don't amount to loss of Salvation, and all Christians experience punishment for sins in this short life:  1) chastisement; 2) loss of rewards; 3) illness;  4) fellowship and closeness to GOD suffering;  5) less of GOD pouring out HIS blessings; 6) maybe even physical death  7) many other things  - BUT, none of these things are loss of Salvation. Loss of Salvation would be spiritual death.

5 - One should never suggest that Salvation is maintained by good works because this simply isn't true. One should also never suggest that Salvation is maintained by living Holy and without sin because that is impossible for a human being in this life. If a Christian in this short life says that they are Holy and without sin, they are a liar, and the truth of GOD is not in them.

6 - Many take isolated portions of Scripture, fail to consider the context, fail to consider the speaker, fail to consider the audience, fail to consider the purpose, fail to consider differences between Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST, fail to consider before or after the Cross, and generally wind up with a gross misunderstanding of GOD'S WORD because they didn't RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

7 - David committed adultery AFTER he was known as a man after GOD'S HEART. YET, David was not put to physical death, and we must also remember that this was before the Cross. SO, did David suffer spiritual death for eternity because of his sin that was then listed as a sin unto death? NO!  David would represent a big problem for many who fail to understand portions of the Holy Bible. If David has been put to physical death for his sin, would that have also meant David suffered spiritual death?  NO!  Again, we must fully consider this was before the Cross, so how much different would circumstances like this be after the CROSS? Go ahead and add a few more "what if's" in David's case. What if David had failed to repent and didn't beg GOD for forgiveness. Would David have then been doomed to the fires of hell forever?  NO!  We must remember what was ACCOUNTED as righteousness in the Old Testament, and if you are thinking personal holiness and righteousness - you would be wrong. SO, was GRACE dispensed by GOD in the Old Testament before the CROSS?  YES!  Was this grace given only to people who deserved it?  NO!  Did David suffer punishment for committing adultery?  YES!   Is David's punishment for eternity in hell?  NO!

WHY?

FAITH!  FAITH!  FAITH!

Finally, does any Christian have their own righteousness? NO - NONE but filthy rags. The Holy Bible rebukes those who go around trying to obtain their own righteousness and refusing to yield to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST. Human beings in this short life WILL NOT find or obtain any of their own righteousness or holiness because it's impossible for a human being. The ONLY Righteousness and Holiness for a Christian in this short life is to be seen IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Our ONLY holiness and righteousness is IMPUTED to our account by JESUS CHRIST ALONE.

Here are a couple of other things to consider in this issue:  1) can a person get a glimpse or a "taste" of the riches of CHRIST and not be saved?  -  YES!  2) can a Christian commit a sin unto PHYSICAL death without repentance and still be saved?  -  YES!  This could and does lead to all kinds of other questions that relate to NO assurance of Salvation.

If a person is TRULY SAVED, the PROMISES of ALMIGHTY GOD are given right then. Those promises from GOD are not based upon the righteousness or holiness of the person who received GOD'S GIFT. It would not be wise to suggest that GOD lies or breaks HIS PROMISES! It is my firm belief that GOD wants Christians to live victorious lives in JESUS with 100% assurance of Salvation. The PROMISES OF GOD are that 100% assurance of Salvation. There are NO holy or righteous Christians, but we do have a Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS OUR ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS. SO, what are the real answers?

FAITH!    FAITH!    FAITH!

JESUS CHRIST!

THE CROSS!

HIS BLOOD!

HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

HIS HOLINESS!

GOD'S GRACE!

GOD'S GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

[Len]

BEP, thank you, Brother. Very, very good post. Concise. Precise. To the point. As complete a post as I've seen on the assurance of salvation in everyday terms. Full of reason.

Agree. Agree 100%.

[nChrist]

You are most welcome.

I have lived long enough to see many Christians agonize over Salvation, especially after they get older, become ill, or know that there might be a chance of some lengthy or severe illness. I've heard them ask about what happens if they have a stroke, get Alzheimer's, or otherwise lose their ability to be in control of their minds. They are worried about doing something or saying something that will cause GOD to remove their Salvation. The truth is very comforting and involves the everlasting promises of GOD. I meant to mention this, but I forgot. NO, I don't have Alzheimer's yet - or do I?   

Our ALMIGHTY GOD knows all about the weaknesses, failures, and ailments of human beings. We should know that GOD isn't going to hold anything against someone who is out of their mind or close to it. I'm thinking about my dear grandfather right now who served over 60 faithful years in the ministry. He was a man of kindness, compassion, and devotion to GOD until he had a series of strokes. I had never seen my grandfather angry, and I'd never heard him say anything close to vulgar language, much less profane language. I did hear and see those things before he died, and he even physically assaulted several people who he dearly loved. I know that GOD didn't hold him responsible, and neither did we. My grandfather went immediately to be with the Lord when he died, "absent from the body and present with the LORD." I have zero doubts about this.

Len, this topic has been a matter of debate for centuries, and very few ever take ALL into account when studying portions of the Holy Bible. One can go to certain portions of Scripture that appear to have bold contradictions within just several Verses or in the next Chapter. We know there aren't any contradictions in the Bible, so what we have is misunderstanding on our part. Example: "faith without works is dead." YES, it is in terms of a Christian's testimony and example before men. One can look at James and John for many seeming contradictions that aren't contradictions at all - just misunderstanding. Faith with ZERO works can still mean Salvation, and proof for that is the thief on the cross next to JESUS. The reality of the Promises of GOD in Salvation is why the Apostle Paul spent so much time in trying to explain why GOD'S Grace was NOT and is NOT a license to sin.

When it all comes down to the ultimate reality, there isn't one man or woman who deserves the Love, Grace, and Gift of GOD. This explains why the Apostle Paul also spends considerable time in explaining GOD'S Grace and what man actually deserves. We know that it isn't of works, but we could say it stronger than the Apostle Paul said it, "Men WOULD not MIGHT BOAST." SO, we are left with thanking GOD for something we could never deserve or earn. "It is NOT of ourselves.." - "It's a Gift from GOD" - no man can boast of anyone BUT CHRIST! "It was GOD who began a good work in me, and GOD will finish it." The WORK of SALVATION was finished on the Cross most perfectly by JESUS CHRIST.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

I am a receiver of God's grace that far supersedes my worst sin.

Romans 5:20 NASB  The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I am dead to sin and alive to God.

Romans 6:11 NASB  Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I am a recipient of eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am free of condemnation.

Romans 8:1 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I am free from the vicious cycle of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 NASB  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

I am a son of God; God is spiritually my Father.

Romans 8:14-15 NASB  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Galatians 3:26 NASB  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 NASB  Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

I share in Christ's inheritance.

Romans 8:17 NASB  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

I am protected. Who can ever be against me?

Romans 8:31 NASB  What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

I am inseparable from God's love.

Romans 8:35 NASB  Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:10-17 NASB  Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

[Len]

Oh, Lord I do love reading about your grace and mercy. I love reading about Jesus' work in our lives. I love thinking about the unbroken and unbreakable promises given us by You, Almighty God, our Savior. And I definitely love reading again about the fact that when You save us, we stay saved for eternity. I could never have peace if that were not so.

[doc]

Len and all,

This age-old discussion has divided the body of Christ for so long it is hard to comprehend the entire body of all the printed words.

It all began, as best I can ascertain, with the Synod held in Dordrecht in 1618-19 by the Dutch Reformed Church,  Please see:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

This POLITICAL meeting was arranged by the inheritors of Calvinism to defend their doctrines from the followers of Jacob Arminius in Holland.  Perhaps they were losing congregants, but I'm not sure.

From this interchange there has risen the old Calvinist/Arminist debate.  Both of these folks, when in the HYPER position will barely talk with one another let alone worship together.

I am pleased we seem to be having a sensible discussion hereabouts, so far.

As I am a student of forensic theology, let me ask you all this question.   

Which denomination (belief system) has the most sincere following of these two divergent theologies?

Which one has full churches each and every Sunday?

Is either of the above questions a valid way to find the truth of their beliefs?

If not, then why are so many churches almost empty but for 2 days/year?

[Len]

Len and all,

This age-old discussion has divided the body of Christ for so long it is hard to comprehend the entire body of all the printed words.

It all began, as best I can ascertain, with the Synod held in Dordrecht in 1618-19 by the Dutch Reformed Church,  Please see:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

This POLITICAL meeting was arranged by the inheritors of Calvinism to defend their doctrines from the followers of Jacob Arminius in Holland.  Perhaps they were losing congregants, but I'm not sure.

From this interchange there has risen the old Calvinist/Arminist debate.  Both of these folks, when in the HYPER position will barely talk with one another let alone worship together.

I am pleased we seem to be having a sensible discussion hereabouts, so far.

As I am a student of forensic theology, let me ask you all this question.   

Which denomination (belief system) has the most sincere following of these two divergent theologies?

Which one has full churches each and every Sunday?

Is either of the above questions a valid way to find the truth of their beliefs?

If not, then why are so many churches almost empty but for 2 days/year?

I personally wouldn't have a clue as to the answers to the first two questions. I would say no to the third. Answering the fourth question, we are an apostate race. We choose self over God and others. And we are mistaken at thinking that if we go to church on one or both of those 2 "special" days, that our obligation to God has been met (There's that "works" thing again. Thanks for helping me prove my point.) Salvation is FREE. We do not have to...cannot...do anything to accept God's free gift of salvation. God does not hold us accountable for receiving the gift. But he does hold us (believers) accountable for our actions through the rewards of the Bema. 

BTW, I have been accused of being a Calmenian.

[Soldier4Christ]

Actually this started long before the Calvinist/Arminist. This is the reason this subject is covered so extensively in the New Testament. It was having to be dealt with by the Apostles right from the very start.

Which denomination (belief system) has the most sincere following of these two divergent theologies?

Which one has full churches each and every Sunday?

Is either of the above questions a valid way to find the truth of their beliefs?

Seeing as how we don't do denominations here I won't even go there.

The act of going to church does not make a person a Christian. There are many that go to church every day it is open and still have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Yet I know some that rarely ever go to a church that are the most sincere Christians that I have seen and live a very Godly life, being in a very close relationship with Jesus.

Salvation is FREE. We do not have to...cannot...do anything to accept God's free gift of salvation.

[doc]

PR,

I suspect your church is not empty and I pray the congregation is not dwindling.  However, the question is where these conditions exist, what are those leaders doing wrong, and How do we avoid those faults in our congregation.  That's what I mean by forensic theology and I still think it is worthy of consideration.  You probably have already considered this and might want to give us the benefit of your experience.

[Soldier4Christ]

There are churches today that have large numbers in attendance that are not in the ways of the Lord. Some of these so called churches fill their pews by pandering to the flesh instead of feeding the soul. I have also seen small churches that stay small from pandering to the flesh. While I would like to see every person in this entire world attend a church I would much rather see churches, no matter how small or big, that are Godly. Do not be concerned with the numbers, but rather be concerned with the content.


2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Shammu]

I would much rather see churches, no matter how small or big, that are Godly. Do not be concerned with the numbers, but rather be concerned with the content.

AMEN brother AMEN

My own Church is small but, I feed the soul as Jesus would have us do.  Psalm 66:16-17 Come and hear, all you who reverently and worshipfully fear God, and I will declare what He has done for me!  17 I cried aloud to Him; He was extolled and high praise was under my tongue.

[Len]

PR,

I suspect your church is not empty and I pray the congregation is not dwindling.  However, the question is where these conditions exist, what are those leaders doing wrong, and How do we avoid those faults in our congregation.  That's what I mean by forensic theology and I still think it is worthy of consideration.  You probably have already considered this and might want to give us the benefit of your experience.

A church where the Bible is not taught...or is not taught to be inerrant...may or may not grow in numbers. But it will NEVER, EVER grow in spiritually.

What makes a strong, vibrant, growing, healthy body is the Word of God being taught unabashedly, unashamedly, unrelentingly. I believe God's Word should be taught expositionally, verse by verse, allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. God knew exactly what He was doing, meant exactly what He was saying, and continues to do so today through the Holy Spirit. He does not mince words. He wrote about His people, warts, pimples, and all. He is well aware of the human condition and chooses to work through it anyway because He is a patient, loving God. If we would  only take Him at His word...just believe what He says at face value...He can do so much more with and through us.

And the payoff for us is HUGE! We cannot, in this sinfilled body and mind in our wildest imaginations, perceive of the glory that awaits us in eternity. 

I owe Him. I owe Him big time. How can I not do my very best to be obedient?

[nChrist]

Brothers,

The tags, labels, and denominations of men have become so numerous and convoluted that they mean almost nothing, or they mean something different to every person hearing them.

Anyone who really studies the Bible could care less what some man said five or six hundred years ago. The real and only truth was given about 2,000 years ago.

I agree with most of what has been said about how big or how full the brick and mortar building is. It makes no difference at all because true believers belong to a church not made with human hands, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Only true believers are members and membership is for eternity.

Back to brick and mortar buildings of men, size, membership, and how fancy it is means absolutely nothing. Some are little more than social clubs and it wouldn't make much difference if they started serving alcohol at the services. The opposite ends of the spectrum are:  1) those that try to please men and the world VERSUS 2) those that are only interested in pleasing GOD. The scales are beginning to tip more and more to #1, and I honestly believe that many of them do more harm than good. I spent my entire life going to a small church that is definitely near #2. People that go there love to study the Bible, and that's the primary purpose of the church for young and old. It has an address for a name, and it isn't associated with any denomination.

I find it almost humorous that many people have strong preconceptions when I say that I'm non-denominational. In fact, I've been surprised how many different meanings people come up with for this non-tag, non-label, non-denominational name. Some people conjure up all kinds of wild descriptions for this non-descriptive name.   

Brothers, there won't be any of man's labels, tags, and denominations in heaven for eternity. They will all be left behind as the foolishness and vanity of man. I'm a Christian, and my favorite preachers are the writers of the Holy Bible. The message is the same as it was 2,000 years ago. The main difference I see from the modern preachers of today is they have "added to" or "taken from" the WORD OF GOD. AND, SADLY, many of the so-called Bible scholars of today aren't even saved. They teach the Bible like a great literary masterpiece instead of THE WORD OF GOD.

We live in a day where many of man's brick and mortar buildings called churches are an abomination to GOD. Many of them are in our Christian News on Christians Unite on a regular basis, and they are spoiling just about all of the tags, labels, and denominations of man. In fact, many of them are even spoiling the term, "Christian". Real Christians wouldn't tolerate what's being done in many so-called churches. Spend some time in reading our Christian News, and you'll see what I mean.

http://news.christiansunite.com/

Man has things so confused and fouled up that one almost has to give a complete "Statement Of Faith" to understand what a man or woman believes. BUT, here's something fascinating that I've learned on the forum over the years: most real Christians can sense other real Christians over a relatively short period of time by just having text conversations and fellowship. One doesn't need to hear man's laundry list that they are "1st ABC - Split from XYZ - Twice removed from DEF - and much greater than JKL" church. If you did go through the laundry list, what would you do if you found out there were three "1st ABC's in the same city and they all had different doctrines? AND, upon further investigation, you found out there were serious splits of belief inside each of the three ABC churches.

I'll just say that I give thanks that GOD'S Plan of Salvation is easy enough for a child to understand. Real Christians can and do have fellowship without dragging a truck-load of man's baggage into it. After all, we will be spending eternity together, and man's foolishness will be left behind.

By the way, for those of you who are wondering, I'm a 1st and Greater XYZ.     My beliefs are almost identical to the Statement of Faith given by Christians Unite. If someone calls me a 1st and Greater XYZ, I'll have to secretly submit that person's name for membership in the ACLU.   

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 118:24 NASB  This is the day which the LORD has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it.

[Shammu]

The tags, labels, and denominations of men have become so numerous and convoluted that they mean almost nothing, or they mean something different to every person hearing them.

Anyone who really studies the Bible could care less what some man said five or six hundred years ago. The real and only truth was given about 2,000 years ago.

It makes no difference at all because true believers belong to a church not made with human hands, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Only true believers are members and membership is for eternity.

AMEN!!