Once Saved Always Saved???

[truthbtold]

Onced saved always saved

This is a difficult subject,for man is not the judge of who is saved and who is not.


There are many conditions in God's word that we seem to read over,we read past words like;When,Then,Those who,He that....
These little words placed before,within,and after a promise in God's word are very important.They are what is called qualifiers,and the fulfillment or applicability of the subject's promise hinges on the conditions being met that are stated and earmarked by these qualifiers,for example if i say to you,Come work for me today and i will pay you.Do you then sleep all day and show up at the end of the day asking for your pay?It seems that many treat God's word in such a manner.Many sleepers looking for reward.
Can we once have been saved,and then be lost?Does God's word speak of the righteous gone into unrighteousness,the good gone bad,the living condemned to death?Let's see

Ezek 18:21-26 But if the wicked will turn away from all his sins that he hath commited,and keep all my statutes,and do that which is lawful and right,he shall surely live,he shall not die
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed they shall not be mentioned unto him,in his righteousness that he hathdone he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?saith the Lord God and not that he should return from his ways and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity,and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth shall he live?All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned:in his trespass that he hath trespassed,and in his sin that he he hath sinned,in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say,the way of the Lord is not equal.Hear now Oh house of Israel;Is not my way equal?are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity,and dieth in them;for his iniquity that he had done shall he die.


Yes we are saved by grace,for none of us could ever deserve salvation,but you must take an active role in your salvation,you must have a working knowledge of God's written word the bible how else will you know whether or not you are being deceived?God warned us that the famine of the end time's would not be for lack of food,but that would be for the lack of understanding the true word of God(Amos 8:11-12

[Soldier4Christ]

If someone calls me a 1st and Greater XYZ, I'll have to secretly submit that person's name for membership in the ACLU.

Oh no! The ultimate torture ....  banishment to the ACLU.

 

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi truthtold,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

but you must take an active role in your salvation

How so do you mean this?

[nChrist]

Oh no! The ultimate torture ....  banishment to the ACLU.

 

       YES - and their boot camp is 5 years in Siberia under Sharia law. That's why most of the ACLU members have so many missing body parts.   

The poor fellow above was 6'4" tall when he started the ACLU training and 3'9" when he graduated.   

[Soldier4Christ]

And the reasoning portion of the brain is the first to go.   

[Len]

Pastor Roger, is there any indication that God hears the prayers of the unrighteous...besides their prayer to be saved, I mean?

I hope you see where I'm going with this in relation to OSAS.

[doc]

PREDESTINATION VS. FREE WILL -  - k house July 12, 2006
"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever..." - Deuteronomy 29:29

From the beginning of time, thinkers have puzzled over the paradox of fate vs. free will, or predestination vs. free choice. In theological terms, this leads to the struggle between Calvinism and Arminianism. As we explore this paradox, we find that examining the fruit of each position reveals that the River of Life seems to flow between these two extremes, and that once again, truth involves a careful balance.

At the heart of the controversies between Calvinism and Arminianism is the emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the sovereignty (free will) of man - or human responsibility - by the Arminians. Calvinism emphasizes that God is in total control of everything and that nothing can happen that He does not plan and direct, including man’s salvation. Arminianism teaches that man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away, and that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.

Both doctrinal positions are reasonable and both have extensive Scriptures to back them up. Both are, in our opinion, both partially right and partially overextended. As Philip Schaff has put it, "Calvinism emphasized divine sovereignty and free grace; Arminianism emphasized human responsibility. The one restricts the saving grace to the elect; the other extends it to all men on the condition of faith. Both are right in what they assert; both are wrong in what they deny. If one important truth is pressed to the exclusion of another truth of equal importance, it becomes an error, and loses its hold upon the conscience. The Bible gives us a theology which is more human than Calvinism and more divine that Arminianism, and more Christian than either of them."

Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign, and that believers are predestined and elected by God to spend eternity with Him. Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice. Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view is human logic, not Biblical revelation (which John Calvin did teach).

The concept of total depravity is consistent with Scripture, but the doctrine of limited atonement, that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, is clearly contrary to Biblical teaching. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone’s sins and that everyone is able to be saved if they will repent and turn to Christ. Limited atonement is a non-Biblical doctrine.

Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and therefore He cannot be surprised by anything. He is beyond the constraints of mass, acceleration and gravity, therefore He is outside time. He knows, and has known from “eternity past,” who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. The former are “the elect” and the latter are the “non-elect.” Everyone who is not saved will have only himself to blame: God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit. Our salvation is entirely God’s work, and is based completely on the finished work of the Cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, this courtship, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can (and do) resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us automata (preprogrammed puppets) to draw us into His forever family.

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes, I think I see where you are headed.

We know from the book of John that God does not hear sinners. Yes He is capable of hearing them but He shuts off His ears, so to speak, to them. The same would hold true of a person if they were able to lose their salvation.

Joh 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.


We know that Jesus hears the repentant sinner and this is why He says:

 "repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


We know also that God does not hear some prayers of Christians:

Jer 7:16  Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

These were individuals that were unrepentant sinners and nonbelievers. Yet we see in 1John where we are told to pray for our brothers that are committing sins that are not unto death:

1Jo 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

According to Psalm 51, answers to prayer can be hindered by unrepented sin even for a believer.

In short, if even Christians can experience a disruption in the efficacy of their prayer lives, can unbelievers pray rightly ever?

Jesus taught that prayer may be characterized by

    * importunity - a laying hold of God's willingness to bless (Luke 11:5-8)
    * tenacity - a persistence and certainty in praying (Luke 18:1-8)
    * humility — penitence and a sense of unworthiness (Luke 18:10-14)
    * compassion (Matt. 18:21-35)
    * simplicity (Matt. 6:5-6; Mark 12:38-40)
    * intensity and watchfulness (Mark 13:33; 14:38)
    * unity of heart and mind in the community of prayer (Matt 18:19 ff.)
    * expectancy (Mark 11:24)

Think for a moment: Can a non-Christian even for one moment pray in obedience to these traits? Or can he pray in the “name of Jesus” other than a perfunctory fashion? God does not answer the prayers of non-believers because they pray wrong prayers for the wrong reason.

It is only through the gospel advantages of adoption, the intercession of Christ on our behalf, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and many other sanctifying privileges, that Christians are able to come boldly into God’s presence to obtain mercy in times of need.

Another thing to think about here. Does God expect us to do more than He Himself is willing to do?

Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

[nChrist]

Brothers,

This really boils down to several very simple questions about Adam and Eve. There really isn't a paradox or anything complex except that which is created by man.

1 - ALMIGHTY GOD knew everything a quadrillion years ago, including the most minute details of animate and inanimate objects.

2 - GOD could have and did make anything HE wanted to, including man.

3 - GOD hates sin and disobedience, and HE could obviously have made man to be 100% obedient and without sin, but HE didn't.

4 - Did GOD know a quadrillion years ago that Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit?  YES

5 - Did GOD want Adam and Eve to disobey HIM and eat of the forbidden fruit?  NO

6 - Did GOD make Adam and Eve disobey HIM and eat of the forbidden fruit?  NO

7 - Did GOD give Adam and Eve an intellect capable of making choices of their own and determining right and wrong?  YES

8 - Did Adam and Eve use their own free will and free choice to disobey GOD and eat of the forbidden fruit?  YES

9 - GOD didn't make Adam and Eve eat of the forbidden fruit, nor did HE stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit, but GOD did know a quadrillion years ago and Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit. SO, the ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALMIGHTY CREATOR had and has FOREKNOWLEDGE OF ALL.

Brothers, there really isn't anything complicated above. The facts above are extremely simple. Our only problem is not understanding all of the WAYS AND WHYS OF ALMIGHTY GOD. We are just simple men, part of HIS CREATION, and we aren't supposed to understand all of the WAYS AND WHYS OF OUR CREATOR.

We do know our own ways and whys pretty well. We know that we make some good decisions and some bad decisions, and many of those bad decisions are sins. We ought to know that GOD didn't force us to commit sin because HE hates sin. We also ought to know that GOD didn't prevent us from committing sin because we did sin, and GOD could easily force us to do anything HE wishes. The bottom line is real simple: GOD gave us free will to make our own choices - right or wrong. Our bad choices are completely our fault - not GOD'S.

JESUS CHRIST died on the Cross for ALL mankind. NO person genuinely wanting to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour will be turned away. This paragraph is the ultimate TRUTH about Salvation, and NOBODY needs to know any of man's theories to accept or reject JESUS CHRIST. We also know that GOD doesn't want any man to perish in their sins without JESUS, but that doesn't mean that HE will force anyone to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. The opposite is also true: GOD will NOT force any man to reject JESUS CHRIST, nor will HE reject any man who wishes to accept JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. GOD did know quadrillion years ago how each man and woman would choose because HE is the CREATOR and HE FOREKNEW ALL!

For those who have read this far, ALMIGHTY GOD knew what you would think when you read this quadrillion yeas ago. SO, in man's way of thinking, it was your destiny to read this, and you were chosen to read this. If you already have JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour, man's arguments and theories about why you read this isn't important.   

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 143:8 NASB  Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in You; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to You I lift up my soul.

[Len]

Thanks, PR. That was exactly where I wanted to go. You pretty much "bottom lined" it.

And BEP, I agree 100%. And your statement about God knowing that all who are reading these posts and each person's reactions to them, is spot on. There are NO happenstances for Christians. Just divine appointments. God has for eternity known what we encounter each day. This is to God's sovereignty. And we can be thankful that God is indeed sovereign. His plans will come to pass, with or without us. He does NOT NEED us. WE NEED HIM. Desperately!

But the most beatiful part of that desperate need is the fact that He is faithful, even when we are not. He is always available and ready to meet our every need, down to the minutest detail. When we have Christ, we have want of nothing and need of nothing else. He is COMPLETE. And we are complete, totally fulfilled in Him. God and God alone can make that manifest.

What a glorious, gracious, powerful King loves us. 

[doc]

I think we're getting close now folks,

It is true He gave us free will to choose to follow His Son Jesus.  If that is true, then He does not take it away when we do follow Him - we still have it, don't we?

But because He knows the end from the beginning He knows who will spend eternity with Him - right?

The problem is that we do not know all he does so we should live faithful lives, trusting Him for our physical and spiritual provisions. 

In short, we should live like Aminians and believe like Calvinists !!  We should live like we could give away what He gave us, while believing as if it cannot be lost.

The extremes of some theological reason is puzzling.

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin's lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God's book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever "receive the grace of God in vain"; "bury his talents"; "neglect such great salvation"; trifle away "a day of grace"; "look back" after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can "grieve the Spirit" till He is "quenched," and strives no more, nor "deny the Lord that bought them"; nor "bring upon themselves swift destruction." Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.


They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12;

that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6;

if one was ever "cast forth," he was never in,

and "if one ever withered," he was never green. John 15:1-6;

and that "if any man draws back," it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39;

that if one ever "falls away into spiritual darkness," he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6;

that if you "again get entangled in the pollutions of the world," it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20;

that if you "put salvation away" you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!!

In short they say: If you get it, you can't lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.

Perhaps we may agree that the truth lies in between these two extremes.

[Len]

I believe the truth IS somewhere between Calvinism and Armenianism.

[Shammu]

I believe the truth IS somewhere between Calvinism and Armenianism.

I believe that the truth, lies in the Bible.  Not in the doctrine of man.

[Soldier4Christ]

I believe that the truth, lies in the Bible.  Not in the doctrine of man.

Amen!

[Len]

I believe that the truth, lies in the Bible.  Not in the doctrine of man.

Well, I sure cannot argue with that.