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Author Topic: "Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?  (Read 19367 times)
Petro
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2003, 11:51:10 AM »

In 1 Cor 14:26 the word adelphos was used in its plural form-- a gender inclusive nature when used in this fashion. Women did pray and prophesy in public worship. It is also clear that women are given spiritual gifts (including speaking in tongues and prophesy) and were encouraged to use them to build up the body of believers.

In 1Cor 14:27 it better translates "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two...."

In corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public.  Again, Paul is admonishing disruptions within the church, not laying out universal mandates of roles between men and women.

You continue to make accusations and suggestions without any basis about me personally, and women in generality when it doesnt line up to the Bible as Petro believes it to be.

You seem to throw terms and categories out to encapsulate those who are in disagreement, attempting to place them in a derogatory position to elevate your stance. This certainly is not only a poor means to discussion, but says something about the very character of your person.  

If you do not agree with me that is perfectly alright with me, I have invested much time prayer and study into this issue. I have carefully studied divergent views and held them to the light of the Word.

The gifts of ministry including pastorship, leadership, administration are for all members of the body to build up the body of believers. To serve and respond to God's calling.







suzie,

Well thats wonderful to know.

In all of your studies, how did you comne to  the conclusion, that the command to women, or others to keep silence in the church, was not a command from the Lord??


And  ignoring this doesn't just simply make what you believe and teach to be true.

A Pastor, teaches men, a woman pastor would be considered to be teaching men, when doing it in an assembly setting, so in order to get aroiund this your way, you simply have to ignore what is written or wrest the Word of God.

Sorry, Neither makes it of God.

Petro
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suzie
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« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2003, 02:39:09 PM »

Paul's command was "to those who speak in tongues"--"be silent".
"To the prophets"--"be silent"

"To the women"--"be silent"

It would be dishonest to single out the command to the women and make it an absolute without making the others absolute as well.  It seems that some want to pluck out the third and not see the other two.

In the same passage he writes that we are to be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. The ministry of gifts were not to be silenced but orderly.

The same is true for women. Paul was not seeking to refrain women from public ministry, but place order within the public worship.

The command wasnt pointed just to the women, but to the entire order of conduct and is seen in light of what Paul was saying to this church. The principles continue to be held in worship--there needs to be order within the body to bring glory and edification.  It isnt about roles but conduct....
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Saved_4ever
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« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2003, 06:04:15 PM »

 Huh  ::sigh::
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sincereheart
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« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2003, 07:47:21 PM »

I could almost understand the resistance if it was just 1Corinthians  Undecided but the same thing is said in many places in Scripture so I just can't imagine that it was a mistake~

Gee, I feel like I'm spamming here but I'm going to cut and paste my previous post:

"I haven't seen any mention of the following verses (and please accept my apologies if I overlooked them):

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet, specifically for marriage (still in Colossians, just a few verses later)--
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Proverbs 12:4 A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones."
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Saved_4ever
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« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2003, 09:05:55 PM »

sincereheart many verses of scripture pertaining to this issue have been said before.  Maybe not on this thread but previously before the hack I had a thread about it and suzie ignored my hard scripture.  I only hold my beliefs because of the bible.  Before I was saved I could care less what women wanted to do really and I would have been content to be a "stay at home dad".  

I fully honor and appreciate the crucial role of women in the home and all these views are because of the bible.  Women have an equally important job in the home.  It's just a shame so many women think it's "not for them" or "pointless" and a waste of their "abilities".  I wish more people realized how important the role of the woman is.
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sincereheart
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« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2003, 04:31:55 PM »

It's just a shame so many women think it's "not for them" or "pointless" and a waste of their "abilities".  

And the funniest thing to me is that working outside the home is MUCH easier!  Wink

Though the Bible does preclude women from being pastors, it does NOT preclude them from sharing their testimony or being an influence. Women do still have a role so what's the fuss about?  Undecided
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Mr. 5020
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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2003, 06:06:43 PM »

It's just a shame so many women think it's "not for them" or "pointless" and a waste of their "abilities".  

And the funniest thing to me is that working outside the home is MUCH easier!  Wink

Though the Bible does preclude women from being pastors, it does NOT preclude them from sharing their testimony or being an influence. Women do still have a role so what's the fuss about?  Undecided

Because some (liberal) women don't just want a role.  They want authority!
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Petro
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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2003, 06:22:23 PM »

sincereheart,

Agreed, the verses you have posted, are, as you say but a few of many, which are given by inspiration, for wifves and mothers, even, widows.

Consider 1 Tim 5
5:1  Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
2  The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
3  Honour widows that are widows indeed.
4  But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5  Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6  But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7  And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
9  Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10  Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11  But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12  Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13  And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14  I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15  For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16  If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.


An Pastor is not just someone who receives this title, by being appointed by men, a Pastor is firstly an Elder and Elders have always been men, neither Peter nor Paul appointed women Elders, Elders have qualifications which they meet according to scriptures  notice;

1 Tim 5
17  Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


Titus 1
5  For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7  For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8  But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;


No woman bishps either.........


14  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2:1  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2  That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5  To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


Women pastors deceive and are deceived easily, with this present day idea, of the qualifications of the pastorate.

There is nothing wrong with have aspirations, but not above or outside the commandments of the Lord.

The only way, women, maybe pastors today, is if they trample and distort the true meaning of the Word of God, and this is easier for them to do, than it is to change what is written for their own good.

And one can see simply, that, that is what is going on here, what makes it sinfull, is this willing desire to disobey Gods Word.


Petro
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Saved_4ever
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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2003, 07:17:57 PM »

It's just a shame so many women think it's "not for them" or "pointless" and a waste of their "abilities".  

And the funniest thing to me is that working outside the home is MUCH easier!  Wink

Though the Bible does preclude women from being pastors, it does NOT preclude them from sharing their testimony or being an influence. Women do still have a role so what's the fuss about?  Undecided

I'm going to have to agree with 5020 on this.  I can't think of anything else really.
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sincereheart
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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2003, 07:35:05 PM »

Ok, after re-reading Proverbs 31 all I can think is - when would a woman have time to be a pastor?  Tongue

Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character
10 [3] A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
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Petro
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« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2003, 10:32:53 AM »

Paul's command was "to those who speak in tongues"--"be silent".
"To the prophets"--"be silent"

"To the women"--"be silent"

It would be dishonest to single out the command to the women and make it an absolute without making the others absolute as well.  It seems that some want to pluck out the third and not see the other two.

In the same passage he writes that we are to be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. The ministry of gifts were not to be silenced but orderly.

The same is true for women. Paul was not seeking to refrain women from public ministry, but place order within the public worship.

The command wasnt pointed just to the women, but to the entire order of conduct and is seen in light of what Paul was saying to this church. The principles continue to be held in worship--there needs to be order within the body to bring glory and edification.  It isnt about roles but conduct....

Paul also, stated;  "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

What is the principle taught herein?

It doesn't exclude women, doers it?  It could very well be directed to certain women, moreso than men..

Petro
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« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2003, 11:12:27 AM »

I am not sure how Proverbs 31 supports women not to be in ministry.....

 I am not sure what point you are attempting to make here petro in accordance to 1Cor14:38

I am not sure also in regard to women working at home being easier has to do with anything either. Serving the Lord as called isnt about what is easier or harder, but obedience. You also allude to the issue that there shouldnt be any "fuss" since women, in your opinion can share testimony and have influence....(sharing testimony would be in contradiction of 1Cor 14 by the way. If you are taking that as a mandate, then silence is silence).  The "fuss" is about being used as called by the Lord, and that people are not given mandate of authority simply because of gender. It is always a matter of character and of the heart.

Actually Phoebe was considered a minister of the Gospel as well as other women who worked with Paul.

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« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2003, 11:28:12 AM »

Quote
Actually Phoebe was considered a minister of the Gospel as well as other women who worked with Paul.

Phoebe was considered a deacon, nothing else.

Sincereheart, well done on your Pr. 31 post.
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suzie
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« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2003, 12:30:22 PM »

You are correct that Phoebe was a deacon. There was no distinction  between minister and deacon existing in the New Testament.
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Petro
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« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2003, 04:25:20 PM »

A deacon, is not considered the same as an elder. A deacon is simply a servant, helper, one who ministers to others, in Acts 6:1-6, we have a perfect picture of how deacons are chosen, or appointed by the elders, or assembly.

He is not necessarily a teacher, bujt an Elder must be a teacher "apt to teach"(
1 Tim 3:2)

Our sister Phebe, of Rom 16:1, is simply refferred to as "servant", the NIV, transliterates the greek word "diakonon" of the assembly.

Serving and ministering is not limiting to teaching.

We need not think of her as belonging to some special religious order. Any sister who serves in connection with a local assembly can be refferred to as a "deaconess."

It is a stretch to claim she was an "Elder" or a "Pastor".

And elder was called upon to rule and teach.  While the office of deacon, is one which is to be used to be proved and  by his faithfull servive be found blameless.

Note carefully, again;

1 Tim 3
3:1  This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8  Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9  Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10  And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11  Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12  Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13  For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A deacon, "be the husband of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well" vs 12


She (Phoebe) used her money to help and serve and minister to the needy in the assembly, and no doubt this is the reason why Paul wrote of her, reffering to her gift of helps.
suzie,

Conversing with you reminds me of fishing in the early hours of the day, when fish are hungary, they will eat anything that is cast in there direction, this is why they are snagged with lures (fantasies of the real thing), they display a feeding frenzy, swallowing hook, line and sinker, before realizing their error; such is your desire to make the word of God, teach what it does not, you want it to say what it does not msay at all ,so bad, that you can taste it, it is at this point that you have become the most vulnerable, and have embraced what is not of the teaching of God.

In your twisted mind you have Paul agreeing with you, while denying he spoke for Jesus, when he commanded these things.

The next thing that you will claim, is that it is a ploy of the far right to keep woman from become pastor's.

You need to submit yourself to the word of God. But before this can occur you need to forsake your sin of unbelief, and ask for wisdom and understanding, that you might understand it, first.


Quote
posted by suzie as reply 73
You are correct that Phoebe was a deacon. There was no distinction between minister and deacon existing in the New Testament.

The word deacon, as used herein is simply the word "servant".
Nevertheless, a Deacon is not necessarily an Elder, but an Elder would have been a Deacon.

A deacon is not a Pastor, this is understood by all.

Petro
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