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Author Topic: "Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?  (Read 19300 times)
Broken
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« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2003, 10:54:28 PM »

Hey Tibby,

Yes. Here in America, we learn each other dialect because we spend so much time making fun of each other. We have Guys like Jeff Foxworthy and Chris Rock to “bridge the gap” for their cultures. The guy I was talking about had all kinds of crazy words. In America, we joke about the British vocabulary, but it is on joke. He called the local lake “dodgy” and I’ve already told you are the “tight” thing.

I've had to cure myself a bit of calling things "dodgy" on the net! I once had a discussion with an American poster somewhere and said that such-and-such was a dodgy argument, only to get an indignant reply that he hadn't tried to dodge the issue! Which, of course, wasn't at all what I meant!
The worst thing to find out is when what is a perfectly innocent word where you come from means something incredibly obscene somewhere else - very embarrassing!

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lol, you crazy UKers! So, do you consider yourself English or Scottish? Sorry, the extent of my knowledge of English Geography comes from Stephen R. Lawhead books! Lol

English Smiley Newcastle is about fifty miles from the border with Scotland, in England.

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Yeah, Modern English takes so much from the Languages of the local people, it is NOTHING like old English. I forget all the names, but it is like 100s of different English Dialects over the world today! At least 3 for each English speaking Nation.

The major difference between Modern English and Old English was the introduction of Latin through French after the Conquest in 1066. Thats why it looks so strange to us whereas we can make sense of Middle English - OE is much more Germanic. Some of the English dialects are almost impossible for outsiders to understand - when I was a little girl, I spoke the local dialect so strongly, with such a thick accent, that my relatives from thirty miles further south couldn't understand what I said! Actually, my own native dialect has been classified as a language in its own right now Smiley as has Scots, and I think some of the pidgin English ones have too. I understand that there are some people in the US who speak a sort of Germanic-English, which is supposed to be quite hard to understand too?

Quote
Well, I didn’t have an answer either. I was just wondering.

Hey Saved, where’d ya go, buddy?

I think Saved decided he didn't want to continue with this.
Its been interesting though, I just used some of the stuff we've been talking about in an exam Cheesy so if I pass, I'll give the credit to the board lol.

Emma
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Depart from me I never knew you!
I never knew you!
Never.
 

Man disavows, and Deity disowns me:
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Bolted against me.
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2003, 07:41:20 AM »

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I think Saved decided he didn't want to continue with this.

That wold be correct.  I've gone through this topic a bijillion times and it's tiresome when people come up with different excuses for wh ythe bible doesn't sya what it says or that it means something different.  I even debated this with susie before.  there's nothing wrong with using the KJV as it's not very hard to find out what a word use to mean.  Current american, english in general rather has gone to the pigs.  

Let's take one last glance here.
 
Quote
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to govern or exercise dominion over the man, but to be in silence.

Seems pretty darn straight forward to me and I guess even more so with the inserted deffinition for all those with trouble comprehending the word usurp.  Again Paul even goes so far as to us scripture from Genisis to show why.  It was not directed at any one individual.  Thank the LORD the women in my Church can comprehend the bible by just simply reading it.

Continue to frivolously discuss the topic.

God bless,
Jason
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2003, 11:07:28 AM »

Jason, I am intrigued by your response. That you have "gone through this topic a billion times"  yet you continue to partake in this very subject over and over again that appears to aggitate you if someone holds a different view point than yourself using Scripture as basis for their interpretation also.

If you are knowledgable in regard to the Bible, which I am sure you are, you would then know that the Greek language is not always so easy to translate into another language, as is the case broken and tibby seem to be focusing on.  

The translators can stick to the words that translate directly across to the new language, or may opt to translate the idea into the other language, making the sentance understandable.

The Scriptures we read are not exactly like the original documents. Instead they have been marked into verses, paragraphs, sentances were ended and started--the translators did such things to make the Bible more understandable to the reader they were attempting to reach, while still conveying the essence and meaning of the original documents.

Just as you believe that these verses are "clear" in regard to limiting women from leadership  or maybe even teaching with disregard for other passages that give clear indication that regard women as not only free to assume leadership but called to do so, should at the very least give pause to your stance.  Remember the Pharisees took the letter of the law and disregarded the intention or meaning that it was to convey.  You can do the same with Scipture if you only see the words and do not understand the message that writer was intending for that particular time.
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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2003, 06:17:26 AM »

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or maybe even teaching with disregard for other passages that give clear indication that regard women as not only free to assume leadership but called to do so, should at the very least give pause to your stance.

that's because there aren't any.  the best I've seen you do is pull out scriptures that give no clear anything.  You use the same tactics that a RC used to prove infant baptism.  she used the line where it said because the woman believed all the household was saved to mean that "there must have been children".  Talk about adding words where they weren't.  You do the same thing.

God bless,
Jason
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2003, 02:44:40 PM »

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or maybe even teaching with disregard for other passages that give clear indication that regard women as not only free to assume leadership but called to do so, should at the very least give pause to your stance.

that's because there aren't any.  the best I've seen you do is pull out scriptures that give no clear anything.  You use the same tactics that a RC used to prove infant baptism.  she used the line where it said because the woman believed all the household was saved to mean that "there must have been children".  Talk about adding words where they weren't.  You do the same thing.


He is right, girls. We are talking about a Book written in a Culture when women where property of a mans. Her Father, Husband, Brother, or sometimes even son. And the bible only confirms this. Women can be great minds in the Christian church, and they can do a lot of good, but the bible clearly says they should not lead over men. Sorry, if we could change it, I’m sure most of us would, but we can’t. The bible says what it says, and it is the Word of God.

Saved- That was low. When will you  just let it drop? Grow up.
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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2003, 06:10:08 PM »

that's because there aren't any.  the best I've seen you do is pull out scriptures that give no clear anything.

Saved,
Scriptures have been pointed out to you which clearly show women in leadership positions, where they are not condemned for so doing. How do you reconcile those with your stance?

Judges 4:4-6 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

Would you not say Deborah was a leader over men, with authority over them?

Romans 16:1-2 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [deacon] of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me

Junia was a woman.....and an apostle. Not a leader?

Really, I fail to see how it is possible to say that women did not have approved authority over men in the Bible, when the Bible quite plainly says they did have such authority.

How do you fit these examples in (there are others) with your stance?

Emma
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Man disavows, and Deity disowns me:
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Bolted against me.
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2003, 02:50:22 AM »

Debrah was not a preistess though was she?  Many of the "judges" were not "religious" leaders either so that point is moot.

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Romans 16:1-2 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [deacon] of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Servant DOES NOT equal deacon and I can't even begin to figure out why you added such nonsense.  I too am a servant of my church yet I hold no official position nor am I a deacon.  This is the garbage I am talking about.  Adding inferences that aren't there.  You have me quite perplexed to understand why you add to things when they are not there.

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Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me

Junia was a woman.....and an apostle. Not a leader?

::sigh:: You really are showing why women shouldn't teach.  This in NO WAY, shape, or form says that Junias was an Apostle.  Talk about ignornace and not being able to understand what is written.  Considering there were only tweleve apostles, I can't fathom how you came up with this nonsense either.  All it says is that Junias is OF NOTE AMONG the apostles not that she was one.  I thought it was pretty basic knowledge that there where only twelve apostles.  I suppose you were taught different or you just decided to make things up.  

So again I tell you there is nothing in scripture showing women being Pastors, ministers or any other such thing in the bible.  Women are not to teach or have authority in the church.  It's pretty simple and basic.  Also you still have yet to explain why Paul gave his reasoning or do you just like to ignore it?

Women have a very important part ordain by God.  It's such a shame they refuse to see it and it's because of a major lack of their position that this country has taken such a dive.

God bless,
Jason


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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2003, 02:52:01 AM »

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Saved- That was low. When will you  just let it drop? Grow up.

It wasn't low it was a truth that match to the T and was also used by a women.  There is nothing to let drop and as for growing up I'm only grown where one needs to be.  

Take care,
Jason
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2003, 08:42:02 AM »

Lead them all out to pastor.
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2003, 09:11:11 AM »

Saved-

I really dont know where to begin,so I will start with answering your "accusations" one at a time. First of all, you are speaking about Deborah and dismissing her relevance (as well as the other judges God rose up). All the Judges were raised up as deliverers and leaders for God's purpose. Since the song of praise she authored is the fifth chapter of Judges, she was one of the people moved by the Holy Spirit to speak God's Word, the sacred text of the Bible.

Deborah was both judge and prophet. She was the highest leader of Israel.  Is the fact that none of the priests were women any more significant than the fact that all were free Jewish men?  To say that women  cannot fill certain roles in the church is akin to saying that Jewish Christians cannot fill certain roles. These are cultural (sinful) tendancies, not Christian ideals. Galatians 3:28 makes it clear that distinctions between genders are not significant in the body of Christ.

Miriam was also prophetess and called leader by God. God said, "I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam." One-third of the peoples national leadership was female.

What is a prophet? There are at least two roles in the Scriptures: A prophet can mean the same as a preacher-one who speaks on God's behalf concerning the present-or one who foretells the future. Teaching is also involved in prophecy for if you are speak on God's behalf, you will have to teach those who hear you.  

Now for Phoebe--  Paul began by saying he "commended" Phoebe. The Greek word for  commend means "to stand with" In other words, Paul was endorsing Phoebe. This commendation was extremely significant. The Corinthian church was obsessed with status.  Paul rebuked those who "commend themselves" Paul wouldnt seek for himself letters of recommendation so coveted by those who desired spiritual leadership in the church. Paul said that the Corinthian believers should have commended him and didnt. He wanted to make sure this didnt happen to Phoebe.  After endorsing her, Paul used two key words. He called her a "diakonos" Many translations render this Greek word as "servant" which is not incorrect, however it might be better translated as "deacon" or "minister" as is done in other NT passages. Paul used this word 21 times in his letters. The NIV translates it as deacon 3 times (2Cor3:6; Col4:7; 1Tim3:Cool as minister 3 times (2Cor3:6; Col4:7; 1Tim4:6) as servant 14 times (Romans 13:4a; 15:8;16:1; 1Cor4:1; 2Cor6:4; 11:15a;15b;23; Ephesians 3:7;6:21; Col1:7;23;25). This is the same word Paul used for his male coworkers. In other words, Paul used the term servant to persons clearly understood to be ministers of the gospel, including himself. No distinction between minister and deacon existed in the NT. Paul went on to modify the noun diakonos by the phrase "of the church".   This would enforce the message she was a minister of the Gospel who served the church in a public way. The Romans were to "receive her" Paul used this word on one other occasion when he praised an esteemed coworker named Epaphroditus. She was to be received "in a way worthy of the saints" Similar to his teaching in 1Timothy 5:17. Paul went on to say Phoebe was a "prostatis" This Greek word takes on the meaning of servant-leader; or one who governs. Emporers, kings, governors, partiarchs, captains and other figures of authority were referred to by this term. This term was used to describe only one person in the NT...Phoebe.

The 12 were apostles, but there were other apostles such as Paul, James the less, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junias. The Greek apostle means "to send forth; send out" To merit the title apostle,  one had to have been divinely commissioned to preach. When Paul identifies Junias as "outstanding among the Apostles" this expression includes them  within the apostolic circle.  John Crysostom, a church father and commentator on Pual in the 4th century, understood the refernce to be a woman and an apostle. He states, "To be an apostle is great. But to be outstanding among the apostles--just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was deemed worthy of the title of apostle."

Remember, we are a priesthood of believers, with Jesus as our high priest. We need no human to intercede on our behalf, we, each of us as believers go directly to God. We will each be accountable for what we do and fail to do as God gifts and directs.  We are all gifted as imparted by the Holy Spirit to meet the needs of individuals or groups. These are  wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracle worker, prophecy, discernment, tongues, interpretation.  We also are gifted with ministry gifts, which has to do with the function of the body of Christ. The gifts of ministry or function are ...apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, one who serves, exhorter, giver, leader, mercy, helper, administrator, preacher, giftings. One Body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.

Yes women and men have great parts that God has given for us. Each of us God has a plan. Unfortunately yours is about power and placement of a hierarchy. Mine is about mutuality and submission to build up the body of Christ.  


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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2003, 09:39:53 AM »

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Yes women and men have great parts that God has given for us. Each of us God has a plan. Unfortunately yours is about power and placement of a hierarchy. Mine is about mutuality and submission to build up the body of Christ.

Obviously you still don't have a clue and as per usual, with you and others like you.  We are obviously done.  You can twist, contort and add as you please.  You can use the worst bible aside from the NWT to back you up but alas you are wrong.  You concsistantly ignore truth and so like anyone who ignores truth good day.

Take care and God bless,
Jason
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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2003, 10:17:08 AM »

I have been attempting to somehow respond to your last posting Jason, however, I dont think comment is needed.   I think you are wise to step away, for it seems to have upset you.
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« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2003, 02:17:32 PM »

Read what Clarke has to say about this issue.
1Co 14:34 -
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.” And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים  yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.” This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.
But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.
But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Gen_3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.

I tend to agree with Clarke. I think the hardline approach to absolute submission under all circumstances only does harm to the Gospel. It does not line up with the Spirit of Christ.

asaph

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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2003, 08:59:25 PM »


If there are men around let them take the initiative.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2003, 01:10:58 PM »

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa2.html

The Apostle Paul prohibited women from teaching men or usurping authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). "Let the woman learn is silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." This does not mean that women are not allowed to teach at all. Paul says that older women are to teach younger women (Titus 2:4), and women are also to teach their children (1 Timothy 5:14), just not men. Priscilla, with her husband, Aquila, showed the eloquent Apollos "the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-28). As a result, he became a great asset in the ministry. Also, Paul intrusted Phoebe with delivering his epistle to the Romans (Romans 16:1-2). From my own experience, I know that my wife is an excellent Bible study partner. Never-the-less, I see no way that a woman preaching to a congregation of adult men and woman can be anything but a violation of 1 Timothy 2:12. From 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:11, and Titus 1:5-6, it is clear that elders and deacons are to be men. It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa2.html

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa2.html

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa2.html
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 01:36:04 PM by Ambassador4Christ » Logged



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