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Author Topic: "Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?  (Read 19372 times)
Knox
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2003, 01:33:08 PM »

The Apostle Paul prohibited women from teaching men or usurping authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). "Let the woman learn is silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." This does not mean that women are not allowed to teach at all. Paul says that older women are to teach younger women (Titus 2:4), and women are also to teach their children (1 Timothy 5:14), just not men. Priscilla, with her husband, Aquila, showed the eloquent Apollos "the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-28). As a result, he became a great asset in the ministry. Also, Paul intrusted Phoebe with delivering his epistle to the Romans (Romans 16:1-2). From my own experience, I know that my wife is an excellent Bible study partner. Never-the-less, I see no way that a woman preaching to a congregation of adult men and woman can be anything but a violation of 1 Timothy 2:12. From 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:11, and Titus 1:5-6, it is clear that elders and deacons are to be men. It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.

Yet another post of yours that is actually the thoughts of someone else. It is wrong to post copyrighted material and not attribute it. You wouldn't want people to think they are having a conversation with you when they really aren't, would you?

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/qa2.html

Q: Is it alright for women to be preachers?

A: Our Apostle Paul prohibited women from teaching men or usurping authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). "Let the woman learn is silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." This does not mean that women are not allowed to teach at all. Paul says that older women are to teach younger women (Titus 2:4), and women are also to teach their children (1 Timothy 5:14), just not men. Priscilla, with her husband, Aquila, showed the eloquent Apollos "the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-28). As a result, he became a great asset in the ministry. Also, Paul intrusted Phoebe with delivering his epistle to the Romans (Romans 16:1-2). From my own experience, I know that my wife is an excellent Bible study partner. Never-the-less, I see no way that a woman preaching to a congregation of adult men and woman can be anything but a violation of 1 Timothy 2:12. From 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:11, and Titus 1:5-6, it is clear that elders and deacons are to be men. It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.

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ebia
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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2003, 04:29:23 AM »

Quote
It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.
I've yet to see any church which ignores passages of the bible (except, for example, most of the book of Numbers, which I doubt any of us use on a regular basis).  Coming to a different understanding is not the same as ignoring.
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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2003, 05:37:34 AM »

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It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.
I've yet to see any church which ignores passages of the bible (except, for example, most of the book of Numbers, which I doubt any of us use on a regular basis).  Coming to a different understanding is not the same as ignoring.

If you say so.
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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2003, 05:49:41 AM »

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It is most unfortunate that many churches choose to simply ignore passages such as these which do not agree with their view of the world.
I've yet to see any church which ignores passages of the bible (except, for example, most of the book of Numbers, which I doubt any of us use on a regular basis).  Coming to a different understanding is not the same as ignoring.

If you say so.

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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2003, 05:49:22 PM »

I agree Ebia. Those who hold that women should be used as called and gifted as pastor, leader and such come to this realization through biblical insight.

It is just as easy to claim that those who hold to the hierarchial position of male "leadership" over women are holding onto cultural and traditional mindset that progressed as a result of our sinful state.

Both positions however, hold to the authority of Scripture as their source for determining their position of women in ministry.  Only by continuing deeper study of Biblical evidence and weighing the merits of divergent insights can we come to understand the facets of this issue.

It was not that far away that Christians clutching thier Bibles held that slavery was not only to be condoned, but divinely mandated by God.  
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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2003, 02:05:57 PM »

I haven't been participating since the beginning, and I do not have the patience to read the whole thing, so I'll ask a question that may have already been asked.

Can the two advocates of female pastors (coincidentally females) explain the verse in 1 Timothy so that it works in your favor?
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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2003, 03:30:38 PM »

Too bad you dont have patience for there have been some great posts along the way.....
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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2003, 11:55:38 PM »

Quote
posted by asaph as reply #42
Read what Clarke has to say about this issue.
1Co 14:34 -
Let your women keep silence in the churches

asaph

I don't know who clarke is, and that matters little to me, what his opinion is in this matter, might be however I  didn't see anyone answer asaph's scripture, so I would like to interject into this discussion, the scriptures, which according to the Apostle Paul, are a commandment of the Lord, himself;

1 Cor 14
33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Please note; verses 37 and 38, the word man can easily be understood to include women, it does not exclude women, yet verse 34, speaks specifically of women, qualified; by verse 35, that they should "ask their husbands at home" if they desire to learn anything.

Now here is a point I would like to make.  

Over the course of four pages, you who support "woman pastors" certainly have kicked the scriptures around.

And, I direct my question to those of  you, who consider yourselves to be spiritual..who stand for woman pastors..

How do you reconcile your position, with the Lords commandment herein at verse 37.

Women cannot be Pastors in the sense of the word, a leader of a flock, since they are commanded to keep silence in the churches, and 1 Tim 2:12, points out clearly they are not to teach .................men. They are to keep silent in the church.

They may teach other woman, and children, but not men, according to the scriptures given

It matters little how eloquent or knowledgeable in the word she might be, all women are to remain silent in the churches, according the Lord.

Petro
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 11:58:43 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2003, 06:18:59 PM »

1 Cor 14 The command for women to be silent does not stand alone. Paul had already given this command twice in the same passage. He had told two other groups to be silent who were disrupting service. These commands were given so that the Corinthian worship would reflect the character of godly worship and edify all that was present.

Pauls "be silent" wasnt an absolute injunction
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« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2003, 08:18:59 PM »

I haven't seen any mention of the following verses (and please accept my apologies if I overlooked them):

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet, specifically for marriage (still in Colossians)--
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Proverbs 12:4 A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones.
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« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2003, 08:24:31 PM »

Quote
poasted by suzie as reply #53 -Female Pastors Is ther........

1 Cor 14 The command for women to be silent does not stand alone.

Oh...Please, the passage of chapter 14e, addressess the those who are excersizing their gifts min the church, the command to women is made explicitly to women, it exludes men, and those whom were already told to remain silent, during certain conditions.

Now how is it you can say such a thing?  Please explain, what you mean, and how you arrive at this conclusion, that the command does not stand alone?  

The command is plain and simple, listen to it again;

1 Cor 14
34  [Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Obviously, you also must have an excuse for the passage in 1 Tim 2; being ignored also;

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man
, but to be in silence.
13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

If you claim to know why the Lord gave this commanded this, perhap you can expound this hidden spiritual truth, which you rely on which is not really a command addressed to the womans role in the church.

It is clear that if a woman is to keep silent in the church, she cannot be a pastor, since pastors are not muzzled by a command from the Lord.

Quote
Paul had already given this command twice in the same passage. He had told two other groups to be silent who were disrupting service. These commands were given so that the Corinthian worship would reflect the character of godly worship and edify all that was present.[/quote

The "two groups" you refer to, were those excersizing there gifts, that of tongues and prohesying, the command for woman  to does not include the excersizing of any particular gift at all, since it is understood, if they possessed either gift, in the context of the passage they were included in the other commands for them to remain silent.

Inspite of   three commends to remain silent, what are you now saying; that the command was really not a command of the Lord?

The command for women to keep silence in the churches, wasn't a command assigning them (all women) to be monitors over keeping the silence in the churches, like perhaps you would like to espouse.

Ignoring this command, then is the only way for any woman to become a pastor, in a Christian church.

So what is the conclusion, that any church that has a woman pastor, is not a Christian church, since it allows what the Lord himself commands clearly, Not to be allowed..
 
Quote
Pauls "be silent" wasnt an absolute injunction

Good observation.......he even says it wasn't ...........

You are correct, it wasn't his, injunction at all, ..
it was the Lords COMMAND to them that consider themselves to be spiritual.

Do you consider yourself to be counted among these..

It is interesting, being in subjection doesn't mean the same thing to liberal women, neither does the word "no", this is one reason, why the Christian church finds itself in dire straights today, in this generation.
 
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« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2003, 10:19:36 PM »

In 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul gives his main idea as since God is a God of order, all should participate in Christian worship in an orderly and edifying way. Paul then proceeds to illustrate this principle by giving examples of what orderly worship should look like.  The examples were those who speak in tongues, those who prophesy, and women of the church.

Paul used these particular examples of those who needed to be corrected and brought back to order, edifying participation.

Paul wasnt prohibiting participation, he wanted all to participate, but in an orderly way. The command to the three different groups are the same. Paul used the exact same word in the Greek to each group. This was a deliberate continuity of thought between verses 28, 30, and 34.

Women were causing division and disruption in church and Paul was correcting this. He had already said he wanted all (men and women) to be ready to contribute with "a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation."  Paul also commanded the people to "speak".  There is no indication that these commands were limited to men. Paul was addressing anyone who spoke to God on behalf of the people by means of tongues or prophecy, in which both men and women participated.

Paul was actually encouraging women to learn. This was a radical break from the culture because women had no formal religious training. Paul was affirming that women should learn by asking their husbands at home, and not creating disruption during worship service. Paul was commanding the husbands to take responsibility to teach their wives. Paul wanted new believers to learn to use their spiritual gifts to build one another up, strengthening the church.
Paul was making chaos taboo.

2Tim 2:2 Paul  told Timothy, "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable persons who will also be qualified to teach others.  The Greek word  anthropos or persons.

I have already discussed 1 Timothy in this thread. You can scan back and read up.
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2003, 12:05:44 AM »

Your explanation, lack substance.

You ignore what Paul says, about Jesus the Lord commanding it, You wrest the very words inspired teaching of Paul, to teach something other than what is in the context of both passages.

This makes plain what you want the scriptures to teach others.  Of course you are a woman, who sits under a woman pastor, no doub  in fact it wouldn't surprise me to know you are one.

Are you presently married, or divorced?

Petro
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2003, 12:54:50 AM »

Quote
 posted by suzie as reply #56
In 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul gives his main idea as since God is a God of order, all should participate in Christian worship in an orderly and edifying way. Paul then proceeds to illustrate this principle by giving examples of what orderly worship should look like. The examples were those who speak in tongues, those who prophesy, and women of the church.

Paul used these particular examples of those who needed to be corrected and brought back to order, edifying participation.

Paul wasnt prohibiting participation, he wanted all to participate, but in an orderly way. The command to the three different groups are the same. Paul used the exact same word in the Greek to each group. This was a deliberate continuity of thought between verses 28, 30, and 34.

Well, lets see what these verse really say; lets start with verse 27;

1 Cor 14
27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30  If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Paul was speaking of MEN, notice how he begins the end of his teaching of these things at verse 34, "Let your women keep silence in the churches"

You are delusional, suzie, to say nothing of your un derstanding of these passages, it sounds to me you have made up your mind, on what youy think Paul said, I wonder if you weren't taught these things by a woman pastor, - huh?

Quote
Women were causing division and disruption in church and Paul was correcting this. He had already said he wanted all (men and women) to be ready to contribute with "a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation." Paul also commanded the people to "speak". There is no indication that these commands were limited to men. Paul was addressing anyone who spoke to God on behalf of the people by means of tongues or prophecy, in which both men and women participated.

At the verse you quote, I have shown you Paul is plainly speaking to men, in verse 20 thru 27, he includes women by the use ofg the word brethern, what passage of scripture do you rely on to make the claim  you do, imediately after spekaing to men, on how to, conduct the chuch servive using gifts, He speak sto them about there women, tghis is because the woman is to be in subjection to a man, whether it the husband or the father,  of course in liberal assemblies today women, are their own man, they rule the roost. This is why you believed what you believe.

Quote

Paul was actually encouraging women to learn.

Yep, he sure was, by asking their husband at home, and be quiet in the church service.

And, later in 1 Timothy 2, after instructing women to learn in silence with all subjection vs 11, he speaks clearly, saying;  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. vs 12 .  And this doens't mean what you claim it means, simply put, it means what it says.

Quote
Paul wanted new believers to learn to use their spiritual gifts to build one another up, strengthening the church.
Paul was making chaos taboo.

You must be reading another book, to get this out of the scriptures, that woman pastors were OK with Paul.

Your imagination is ghetting the best of you, and driving you to post what the bible does not state Paul said or taught at all.

Quote
2Tim 2:2 Paul told Timothy, "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable persons who will also be qualified to teach others. The Greek word anthropos or persons.

No argument here, he did say this to Timothy, but it is a stretch to use this verse as a proof text to teach woman, can be pastors, it is silly to even claim this nonsense.

Quote
I have already discussed 1 Timothy in this thread. You can scan back and read up.

I don't need to go back, I can see, you are off in left field on this one.

I am not a Chiristian of the penetcostal, speaking in  tongues camp, but I have visited these churches, and my impression from  what I saw and heard in these groups services, is that women are disruptive, and I got a little insight as to why they should keep quiet.
It is a shame to have woman, act in such a manner, it speaks loudly of the husbands inability to lead in the things of God, and it is easy to see, why they submit themselves to unbiblical teachings.

They prohecy  "thus saith they Lord", this tells it all, It is easy to  understand why, they are totally ignorant and oblivious of the Lords commandment, they simply just want to do their will, not Gods, let alone subjecting themselves to their husbands.

Thats all I have to say about this nonsense..

Petro
« Last Edit: August 23, 2003, 01:01:18 AM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2003, 09:19:39 AM »

In 1 Cor 14:26 the word adelphos was used in its plural form-- a gender inclusive nature when used in this fashion. Women did pray and prophesy in public worship. It is also clear that women are given spiritual gifts (including speaking in tongues and prophesy) and were encouraged to use them to build up the body of believers.

In 1Cor 14:27 it better translates "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two...."

In corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public.  Again, Paul is admonishing disruptions within the church, not laying out universal mandates of roles between men and women.

You continue to make accusations and suggestions without any basis about me personally, and women in generality when it doesnt line up to the Bible as Petro believes it to be.

You seem to throw terms and categories out to encapsulate those who are in disagreement, attempting to place them in a derogatory position to elevate your stance. This certainly is not only a poor means to discussion, but says something about the very character of your person.  

If you do not agree with me that is perfectly alright with me, I have invested much time prayer and study into this issue. I have carefully studied divergent views and held them to the light of the Word.

The gifts of ministry including pastorship, leadership, administration are for all members of the body to build up the body of believers. To serve and respond to God's calling.




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