"Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?

[suzie]

"Whatever...suzie,"...Yes, indeed Petro.

Maybe there will be a day we can come together and discuss this in a manner that would be God honoring. However, this is not the day. Blessings to you also Petro.

[Allinall]

Petro-

Name calling and dismissing other believers who do not share in your views, and making false assumptions about them. Unfortunately, your insistance to use these tactics makes any type of discussion almost impossible, but then, that is one way to dominate--I would wonder what would motivate someone to do this?

It still remains that God did, has and will rise up women leaders, teachers and those called to ministry despite culture and tradition. God gives gifts in ministry in accordance to His Spirit for the building up of the body of believers regardless of gender. Whether you want to believe this or not does not change that.

When you have gained self control and wish to discuss the Scriptures and issue themselves, I will gladly accept to do so.

BTW-Geetam, I have visited this website a few times. I think it is great and thanks for posting it for others.

It is not a matter of calling or even understanding or ability.  It is a matter of order, the order that God set and expects to be upheld.  Women are gifted to understand, even teach God's word, and are inclined to do so - within the parameters that God set up.  In church leadership, it is the man who is set as pastor.  Why?

In many ways it is a picture of the very Godhead.  God the Father is the head, God the Son is subordinate to God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit is subordinate to both.  Yet, God the Son is no less God than the Father, nor the Spirit than the Father or the Son.  It is the order God set.  In the family, the husband is the head.  Not the superior, nor the better, just the responsible party.  In the church the pastor is the head, and that pastorate is given to a man.  Not a superior or better believer, but a responsible, called and gifted man to do the work has called Him to do under the auspices of His Own design...just as women are called to work under those self-same auspices.

You also neglected to address this:

the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

1 Corinthians 14:34-38

Do I think that this means women are not to speak at all in church or in a Sunday School setting?  No.  I believe that there is a great difference between testifying what God has done in ones life, and teaching what God has said.  In a mixed company, this is simply against what Paul has taught.  Either we deem it unneccesary for today, or we adhere to the teaching.  What do you do with it suzie?

[suzie]

Allinall-

It isnt about order as much as correct Biblical interpretation. You are implying that the Trinity is a Godhead of subordination. However, the Trinity is the epitomy of equality, mutuality and harmony. While Jesus took submission to the Father while in a temporary earthly role, He is not in permanent linear submission or subordination to the Father.

God never mandated one human in authority over another due to gender. Jesus and Paul began a process to restore the harmony and equality that God placed prior to man's fall.

I have not neglected this Scripture, I do not believe that you are interpreting it correctly. I have addressed this I believe in prior postings.

I completely understand the hierarchial position allinall, I probably know it as well as you. I have read extensively in regard to it. I do not agree with this interpretation, that is my point.

And the point is that you are taking out the calling, the giftedness, and God's will for persons and making it a matter of hierarchy, manmade authority, and cultural conditioning. These  are the very same issues that Paul and Jesus dealt with. The Scriptures tell us that there were women in leadership, teachers, and ministers of the Gospel. That God created marriage to be equality and mutuality. God alone desires to be authority of our homes, hearts, churches and marriages. This message is consistant throughout.

[Petro]

Petro-

Name calling and dismissing other believers who do not share in your views, and making false assumptions about them. Unfortunately, your insistance to use these tactics makes any type of discussion almost impossible, but then, that is one way to dominate--I would wonder what would motivate someone to do this?

It still remains that God did, has and will rise up women leaders, teachers and those called to ministry despite culture and tradition. God gives gifts in ministry in accordance to His Spirit for the building up of the body of believers regardless of gender. Whether you want to believe this or not does not change that.

When you have gained self control and wish to discuss the Scriptures and issue themselves, I will gladly accept to do so.

BTW-Geetam, I have visited this website a few times. I think it is great and thanks for posting it for others.

It is not a matter of calling or even understanding or ability.  It is a matter of order, the order that God set and expects to be upheld.  Women are gifted to understand, even teach God's word, and are inclined to do so - within the parameters that God set up.  In church leadership, it is the man who is set as pastor.  Why?

In many ways it is a picture of the very Godhead.  God the Father is the head, God the Son is subordinate to God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit is subordinate to both.  Yet, God the Son is no less God than the Father, nor the Spirit than the Father or the Son.  It is the order God set.  In the family, the husband is the head.  Not the superior, nor the better, just the responsible party.  In the church the pastor is the head, and that pastorate is given to a man.  Not a superior or better believer, but a responsible, called and gifted man to do the work has called Him to do under the auspices of His Own design...just as women are called to work under those self-same auspices.

Allinall,

Amen,  That is what the word of GOD states.  

Not to raise a contentious argument again, but I have pointed out that previous to the newer english translations, this idea of woman as Pastors, was never an issue, in the church,  it is only with the newer vernacular versions, that one can use a word here and their, to compose a verse which appears to reject the command of ther Lord on this particular matter.

You also neglected to address this:

Actually I addressed it in my very first post entering this thread.  But it was rejected out of hand, by rationalizing it away.

the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

1 Corinthians 14:34-38

Do I think that this means women are not to speak at all in church or in a Sunday School setting?  No.  I believe that there is a great difference between testifying what God has done in ones life, and teaching what God has said.  In a mixed company, this is simply against what Paul has taught.  Either we deem it unneccesary for today, or we adhere to the teaching.  What do you do with it suzie?

Amen,

I agreee perfectly with this and have stated the same thing at least three times.

There are many good Christian women, who can teach and in the proper setting, I even believe a woman, could actually teach men and women and children something.

The notion that Gods Word may be twisted to mean something it does not, is evidence of that, person not having a command of the word, and should not teach at all.

While driving down a street in one of the subarbs this last week, I saw a billboard type of sign at what appeared to be a church of some kind, which showed the Pastor as a womans name, and the sunday sermon, was wntitled "The Yellow brick Road", imagine that.  It has almost become a joke..

Actually it is a JOKE...what does the gosple have to do with the Wizard of OZ.

God Bless,

Petro  

[Petro]

Suzie,

posted by suzie in response to Allinall,
I completely understand the hierarchial position allinall, I probably know it as well as you. I have read extensively in regard to it. I do not agree with this interpretation, that is my point.

Your continued arguing about htis issue, makes it clear you have not studied this matter at all, comparing spiritual with spiritual, nor precept upon precept; you had previously stated you have studied divergent views, which to me states you have ignored what the bible says, and sought out the truth elsewhere, in order to get the interpretation you desire.

And from what you have posted thus far,
it is evident you have DONE exactly that.


It is doubtful, you and I will ever meet this side of eternity, and even if we did, there is nothing to discuss, so far as this matter, s concerned, it is settled.

It is for this reason I will share with you, what is my mind.

Even if we met, to dicuss this issue, "Can women be Pastors", any conclusion you or I make as of the result of us seeking to come to a conclusion, could only be for the purpose of agreeing with scripture in order that it could be said we agree with the truth.  

And the only truthful answer to this matter is NO, woman cannot hold the position of a Pastor, they may be servants, ministers, helpers, in unlimited ways and there activities should limited, so that anything they do, should not become an opportunity for the unbelieving to use as an excuse to  blaspheme  the gosple of grace, neither should any Christian be involved in works which should hinder the gosple.

We have all heard of stories, whereby women, working alongside men, in churches have led to sensual acts, whereby even well intentioned christians teaming up (men and women, including pastors) have gone on to regret, their involvement in this ministry or that, marriages and churches have been broken up as the result of acts unbecoming Christian workers.

The main reason why, certain people today disagree with scripture is because they have allowed themselves to be led away from the truth by deceitful unbelieving workers in what is called and considered to be Christian ministery, and this is because these who follow while claiming to believe in Jesus, spend very little personal time in the scriptures, studying them "to show themselves approved of God" (2 Tim 2:25), that they might rightly divide the word of truth.  They (the followers) get involved in taking up causes, and as you said, studying "divergent' views, which lead many further away from the truth.

Allow me to point out, what is the cause of these dissenting views within the church according to the scriptures;  mind you, I will quote scriptures which, the same Paul, who wrote these words which you reject as being inspired, and as commands from  the Lord Himself at 1 Cor 14:34-38.

I have shared with you, how the Lord commanded his disciples,

Take heed that no man deceive you (Mat 24:4)  and again;

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (Mat 7:15)

 Paul also warned the church at Corinth, about the source of these divisions, strifes, and dissensions whithin the congregation, it being the very root of these things, which causes our taking opposite sides in this controversial subject today  because of what YOU consider to be truth.

Please listen carefully to Pauls words;

While speaking to the elders of the churches of Ephesus, he said;
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.  (Acts 20:29-30)

Remember a "prophet" is one who gives out the word of God, such as pastors and ministers of the gopsle, and Paul states plainly at verse 30 above, that from among themselves, meaning their positions shall arise those speaking preverse things drawing away disciples after them.

One might ask himself, Who is it that is behind all of this?

Paul answers this for us at;

1 Cor 11
1  Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
7  Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
8  I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9  And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
10  As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11  Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There is much confusion among so called christian churches today, and it appears to reign supreme, this is why there is debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: in these very churches and these things come because of teachings of these deceivers who teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. (2 Cor 12:20, 1 Tim 6:4-5)

The fact, Paul was an Apostle, Evangelist, Teacher, Pastor (of the gentile flock) helper, didn't matter to him, he abased himself that Jesus might be lifted up, and glorified.

And Paul, what I have just quoted at 1 Tim 6, above, after having stated, what you obviously overlook and ignoring, while pressing this idea of women being pastors, to be a form of godliness.

Notice what he had already stated about the godliness which women should strive for;

1 Tim
7  Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8  I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10  But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11  Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

To outright reject and deny the words of Paul and profess Jesus never gave commands which Paul attributed to Him, that women should remain silence in the churches, is to claim godliness while actually being,  devoid of wisdom and understanding in the things pertain to the Word of God.

Only in consenting to and honoring, obeying the Word can Jesus be exalted.

To deny His Words is to deny ones FAITH, and this speaks louder than any extra-biblical teaching one might propose as coming from Him.

My closing word of encouragment to you is "read and study the pure word." That you might hide it in your heart.(Psa 119:11)  

That you might divide truth from error.

Besides..............  

Everybody has an opinion, you can test these against the sure Words of God.

Blessings,

Petro

[suzie]

Petro-

Our conversation is finished, if you didnt get my message, until you can get yourself under control.

Or, are you just needing the last word?

[Petro]

Petro-

Our conversation is finished, if you didnt get my message, until you can get yourself under control.

Or, are you just needing the last word?

suzie,

To answer your question.

My previous post was my last word.

You are funny, you being out of control, with your teaching, calling me out of control.

I do enjoy, a little dry humor,  occasionaly  Hah ha..........

Petro

[sunodino]

As for women's ordination in general, there are several examples of female leaders of the church in the Bible. In the New testament we have Phoebe the deacon,  Lydia, the "elect lady", Susannah, Mary Magdalene and others. In the Old Testament the most prominent are Deborah, Yael and Ruth. There aren't many - perhaps supporting the view that God only calls women in exceptional circumstances or because they are themselves exceptional people - but they are there.

On a more personal note - I have met many fine female ministers, elders and conveners of the various committes (which make up the presbyters). I have also met many fine men who do those jobs.

In my opinion, the type of sexual organs you have has no bearing on your ability to serve, your calling, your standing or your right to do anything. The sexual organs a person has does not signify that they are greater or lesser than anyone else. All it means is that they have different sexual organs.

-Emma

Very nicely put. Those ladies you mentioned, Deborah, Ruth, Mary, Phoebe, etc. are fantastic examples. Listen, Bible says, in the last days YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY
Greek-. propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

God can do what he wants to, and use anyone, Greek, Jew, Male, Female, cause the wall came down, Bible says so.

I attend(ed) a church where the men just sit there and do nothing. If it were not for the females, nothin' would get done, except for the male pastor.  There is no zeal or travail. Pittiful.

sunodino

[Petro]

I attend(ed) a church where the men just sit there and do nothing. If it were not for the females, nothin' would get done, except for the male pastor.  There is no zeal or travail. Pittiful.

I believe it, how pathetic...........!

Petro

[Saved_4ever]

Very nicely put. Those ladies you mentioned, Deborah, Ruth, Mary, Phoebe, etc. are fantastic examples. Listen, Bible says, in the last days YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY
Greek-. propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

God can do what he wants to, and use anyone, Greek, Jew, Male, Female, cause the wall came down, Bible says so.

I attend(ed) a church where the men just sit there and do nothing. If it were not for the females, nothin' would get done, except for the male pastor.  There is no zeal or travail. Pittiful.

sunodino

It's a good thing I don't go to your church.  It's all messed up and sad.    

The men in my Church have the zeal, and do as ordained by the LORD as do the women.  Rebellious women can be such a handfull.    Glad we don't have any.  

[suzie]

It is sad to see a church where men and/or women are lax in their fire to serve each other in the Lord. It is also sad to see those who are seeking power and self glory in the name of God. It is wonderful to see a church working through the Holy Spirit commited to seeking the lost and discipling believers and rising up leaders and being all God calls us to be.

[Petro]

Whats more sad, is when women, are not only rebellious, but simply want to have the last word, this is what drives men to be coach potatoes in the churches, were the woman want to run everything.

The divorce rate must be awful high in this churches, I imagine..

Petro