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Author Topic: "Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?  (Read 19735 times)
Shaka
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« on: May 05, 2003, 12:39:40 AM »

Is there any such thing as a Female Pastor? If there is or not can you give concrete biblical support to your position?
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Forrest
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2003, 01:39:53 AM »

       Shaka;
Titus 1
5   For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6   If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7   For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1 Timothy 3
2   A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach
1 Timothy 3
12   Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well

       Bishops, and Deacons if these are "Husbands (male) of one wife(female)" Would not this also be for the higher post of pastor, or leader of a Church.
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ROM 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Shaka
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2003, 02:11:13 AM »

Yes, but, many will pull out all the passages that talk about women in power or being used of God.  What about those arguments.  But your argument seems airtight!
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2003, 02:37:14 AM »

Yes, but, many will pull out all the passages that talk about women in power or being used of God.  What about those arguments.  But your argument seems airtight!
     Shaka;
     Many of Thoughs used of GOD where of many walks of life both male, and female, even prophits were of both sexs, but even in the old testament preists were restricted to males.
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2003, 05:24:56 PM »

      Shaka;
Titus 1
5   For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6   If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7   For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1 Timothy 3
2   A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach
1 Timothy 3
12   Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well

       Bishops, and Deacons if these are "Husbands (male) of one wife(female)" Would not this also be for the higher post of pastor, or leader of a Church.

DITTO  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2003, 02:45:53 AM »

No not if you read the bible there isn't.  Paul clearly gives us the reason and it goes back to genisis for the answer.


1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


He also gives roles for the women young and elder.


1Ti 5:2
The elder women as mothers; the younger as
sisters, with all purity.
1Ti 5:14
I will therefore that the younger women marry,
bear children, guide the house, give none
occasion to the adversary to speak
reproachfully.

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asaph
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2003, 04:25:27 AM »

Is there any such thing as a Female Pastor? If there is or not can you give concrete biblical support to your position?
This is a futile argument that I do not like to get in to. But here is my opinion.
There is no such thing as a female pastor. On the other side there is no such thing as a male pastor. For in Christ there is neither male nor female. Another thing, a pastor is not an office to be filled but a function to be lived. A pastor is simply one who takes care of sheep. Taking care of sheep is a function. We think that just because a man can give a 30 minute serman on Sunday that he is a pastor. Sorry, but this does not fit the job description. "Apt to teach" does not require eloquence but spiritual insight. A deacon can be a pastor, so can an elder or bishop. There can be several pastors in one local church.  There is too much religion in Christianity today. Christ verses religion; He is in opposition to it. I know this challenges the thinking of many. "Pastor" should not be a title in front of someones name, this goes against Jesus teaching that we should not call someone Father or Teacher for we are all brethren on the same level. Heirarchy should be rejected outright. If you want to be great, serve. This pleases Jesus. There are only two offices in the local church, elders and deacons. These also are not to be used as titles. These are states of being recognized by the local church. These are functions to be carried out. These are not people who are higher up but are honored by all for their service. There is no anarchy in the Spirit. The reason we set up Heirarchy in the Church is because we are afraid of anarchy. We want a controled environment. We do not want to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ because we want to lord it over others. I know some will disagree but I still love you. You are where you are an I am where I am. The Lord has brought me through some deep waters to arrive on the other side. There is a lot of other little boats that have made the same journey. He who has ears to hear let him hear.

asaph
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Shaka
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2003, 05:41:46 AM »

Whatever Wink
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asaph
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2003, 01:29:09 PM »

Whatever Wink
I don't blame you for answering that way cause that's how I answer my self. "Whatever!" I appreciate your response cause it reminds me how off the wall I am; daring and dangerous. I think to say that a woman can never pastor under any circumstance is not right. I think it is a rarity for the Holy Spirit to allow such a thing but it does happen and good fruit has come of it. We can't bind ourselves to mans interpretation of scripture. THis was a problem of the Pharisees, they placed their dogma above the scripture through their by their tradition. Our staements of faith and confessions have replaced the Holy Spirit in many ways.
We know that women can prophesy in the church.

5   But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

You can hardly keep silent and prophesy at the same time. This does not mean she is usurping authority over the man (which in context really means her husband). In a prophecy there is instruction, are we to ignore it just because a woman gives it? Remember pastoring is not an office but a function. In functioning she is to keep the same spirit of humility as any member of the body of Christ.
There is a women in the Bible who was functioning as a pastor.

 2 John 1
1   The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2   For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
10   If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Here was a local church that met in a home whose care was under that of a woman. She was instucted to not allow even men with false doctrines to step into her house. Is'nt that disgusting Wink ? To think a woman in leader ship, over men!!! This is outrageous! That's it I am contacting headquarters  Roll Eyes! I'm gonna talk to the head bishop! I going to form a coalition to oust her! I'm mad! Angry

asaph Wink
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2003, 02:19:02 PM »

amen asaph. We are now a priesthood of believers in which there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. These 3 traditional pairings are in reflection of the social divisions of hostility of this time within the Roman Empire. Paul was affirming the biblical basis for full participation of women in ministries of the church. The biblical theology of  a "new creation in Christ" in which "neither male nor female" of who are equally committd to the Gospel, the Church and all the ministries, using our Spiritual giftedness to lift up the body of believers in the fullness of Christ, without exclusion.
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2003, 03:05:03 PM »

Yes, women can do the work of God. But, I don't think they are priests. Historically, the Church has taught that women are equal to men but simply have a different role to perform. NOW and other groups like to spread propaganda saying the Christians don't allow women to do the work of God, Christians are curbing the rights of women. No more then the Government is curbing the rights of Congressmen. It has nothing to do with rights, it is a think of reasonability.

It is Gods command. See Genesis 3:16. As much as people hate to admit it, God clearly said the man shall rule over the women. Is this politically correct? No, it isnít. But who ever said the Bible was politically correct? Jesus came and died for our sins, but the snake still crawls on his belly (Gen 3:14), we still have to work for food and we still have thorns and thistles (Gen 3:18-19)! And last I checked, you still have pains during child birth (Gen 3:16). So why are you allowed to take out a part of your punishment, that is, being ruled over by men, while the Males and the Snakes still have to carry out our full punishment! That is just as fair as, I dare say, women not being allowed to be priest, maybe? A women can do the work of God, and she can do mighty work of God, bring millions of Jesus, but by Devine Law set on this Earth by God himself, a women canít rule over a man! Donít hate men, hate Eve!

You donít have to have a place in the Elders counsel of your Church to do the work of God, keep that in mind.
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2003, 06:20:56 PM »

Historically, women have been called by God to leadership. It is also shown within the pages of Scripture. Tradition and culture have been instead the force behind the suffice that women are somehow not "equipped" for leadership due to their "God ordained role".

I do not agree that it is out of propaganda from such organizations as NOW and other secular movements, but instead, from intelligent biblical scholars and Christians who have in their quest, come to the realization that God has gifted both men as well as women for leadership, ministry, and service to bring the Gospel message to others.  There are many many Christians who do not hold your point of view tibby.  The SBC was divided with some states withdrawing from the convention due to their infamous revision to their Baptist Faith and Message in regard to this very issue.  The Willow Creek Church which creates Christian materials used throughout the world hold to women in all levels as called by God.  

In Genesis, God's creation design was male/female equality. Genesis 1:26-27 show man and woman share the same nature the same image of God. Both are commissioned to rule the earth. They share in essence and equality of role. Just as a piece of paper, by its nature has two sides, so humanity, by its created nature has two sexes. Neither the male nor female alone, but the two of them together as "one flesh" constitute and complete what it means generically to be human. "God created man in his own image" creating "male and female" concurrently. Gender differentiation was inherent in God's design for humanity from the onset. That essential partnership of male and female was shattered by the impulse of the two genders to achieve their destiny separately.

Genesis 3:16 were the consequences of sin, not divine ordinances decreed for all time. These are evils which are contrary to the ideal of human nature and to the intention of a good God. The terms of the "sentance" described conditions as they actually existed in the ancient world for both men and women.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2003, 09:56:30 PM »

Historically, women have been called by God to leadership. It is also shown within the pages of Scripture. Tradition and culture have been instead the force behind the suffice that women are somehow not "equipped" for leadership due to their "God ordained role".

They have been called to lead powerful roles, but rarely, if ever, that of heads of church.


Quote
I do not agree that it is out of propaganda from such organizations as NOW and other secular movements, but instead, from intelligent biblical scholars and Christians who have in their quest, come to the realization that God has gifted both men as well as women for leadership, ministry, and service to bring the Gospel message to others.  There are many many Christians who do not hold your point of view tibby.  The SBC was divided with some states withdrawing from the convention due to their infamous revision to their Baptist Faith and Message in regard to this very issue.  The Willow Creek Church which creates Christian materials used throughout the world hold to women in all levels as called by God.  

Please, donít tell me about the SBC. The SBC runs this little town I live in, I know about the SBC. You can throw a rock in any direction and hit SBC (I know, I've been tempted to more then once  Grin). Then it will bounce off them and hit a BMA! lol SBC, at least the ones in this little Texan town, base their beliefs more on the ďMa lití woman gonna stay in da kitchen aní cuk for meĒ philosophy then the biblical philosophy.  


Quote
In Genesis, God's creation design was male/female equality. Genesis 1:26-27 show man and woman share the same nature the same image of God. Both are commissioned to rule the earth. They share in essence and equality of role. Just as a piece of paper, by its nature has two sides, so humanity, by its created nature has two sexes. Neither the male nor female alone, but the two of them together as "one flesh" constitute and complete what it means generically to be human. "God created man in his own image" creating "male and female" concurrently. Gender differentiation was inherent in God's design for humanity from the onset. That essential partnership of male and female was shattered by the impulse of the two genders to achieve their destiny separately.

I agree with having couples share office. That is how our church is. All of the married church leaders are together in meetings, Pastor is both man and wife, elders and elders wives are equal in power. When man and women are married. What about the single women? No, not as Pastors. Preachers, evangelists, Prophetess, yes, but as leaders of the church, with men subject to her, no.


Quote
Genesis 3:16 were the consequences of sin, not divine ordinances decreed for all time. These are evils which are contrary to the ideal of human nature and to the intention of a good God. The terms of the "sentance" described conditions as they actually existed in the ancient world for both men and women.

If they are not decrees for all time, then why do they all still apply? The Snake STILL crawls in its belly, Men STILL have to work for food, and women STILL have pain during child-birth. It sounds pretty permanent to me. Sounds to me, if the other parts of the punishment are still in effect, why should the part about women being subject to their husbands be ANY different then the rest. And I am not even going to quote the New Testament verses, the rest of the guys pretty much covered them for me. Which is why I didnít feel inclined to reply till I say your response.
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2003, 12:02:56 AM »

Hey Tibby,

As you've already pointed out, the problem with using Genesis 3 as an argument against women's ordination is that there are two parts to the curse on woman, and so if you say one is still in force, you must also say the other is. Those two parts are:

1. Women must have pain in childbirth
2. Man must rule over woman (and she must desire him)

Now, if we attempt to say that the curse is still in complete force, we end up with two problems: firstly, if woman must desire man then we have a problem with lesbians and with celibates - we basically must say that all celibate females are still committing a sin because it is impossible for them not to desire man and so they lust.

The second problem is with the pain in childbirth. If this must remain in force in the same way as you argue that man's rulership over woman is still in force, then anything which goes against the ordinance of pain is a contradiction of the will of God - a sin.

Just as you argue that for a woman to contravene the curse and accept a leadership role is wrong, so also must it be wrong for a woman to contravene the curse and accept any form of pain relief during labour. For example: a woman has a caesarean birth. She is sinning. She has opted out of the pain during labour because she is unconscious - but would you condemn her? Same goes for epidurals.

When it comes to the curse on woman, you must either say that both parts are still in force, or that they aren't. If you wish to argue against women's ordination, using another verse would be a better idea.

As for women's ordination in general, there are several examples of female leaders of the church in the Bible. In the New testament we have Phoebe the deacon,  Lydia, the "elect lady", Susannah, Mary Magdalene and others. In the Old Testament the most prominent are Deborah, Yael and Ruth. There aren't many - perhaps supporting the view that God only calls women in exceptional circumstances or because they are themselves exceptional people - but they are there.

On a more personal note - I have met many fine female ministers, elders and conveners of the various committes (which make up the presbyters). I have also met many fine men who do those jobs.

In my opinion, the type of sexual organs you have has no bearing on your ability to serve, your calling, your standing or your right to do anything. The sexual organs a person has does not signify that they are greater or lesser than anyone else. All it means is that they have different sexual organs. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2003, 01:04:59 AM »

Sorry broken but your hypothosis is quite inccorect.  Women still have pain in child birth whther they use pain relievers or not it just doesn't hurt as much.  Regardless it's quite obvious that the pain is still there as ordained by God though you may try to cercumvent it.  Also desire towards the main does not mean lustfully or sexually.  Adam and Eve were already married how then would it be a "curse" to love her husband.  Also I suppose you believe then that this curse was dropped quite early on since homosexuality has been around for quite some time.  Maybe you forgot about sodom and gahmorra.  Or maybe even how Paul declares homosexuals as not inheriting the kindom of God.

Also if using scripture is wrong perhaps you should go complain to Paul who uses this very scripture as part of the reason women are not meant to be leaders aka preachers to the church.  

Modern women can continue to ignore blatent scripture and twist and make things up as they please it is no and will always be wrong.
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