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Author Topic: "Female Pastors" Is there any such thing?  (Read 18998 times)
sincereheart
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« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2003, 05:12:55 PM »

I am not sure how Proverbs 31 supports women not to be in ministry.....
My response was: "when would a woman have time to be a pastor?" followed by this:  Tongue which would indicate humor...

I am not sure also in regard to women working at home being easier has to do with anything either.
It was in response to the statement:"Women have an equally important job in the home.  It's just a shame so many women think it's "not for them" or "pointless" and a waste of their "abilities". And I said: "And the funniest thing to me is that working outside the home is MUCH easier!"
 
 Serving the Lord as called isnt about what is easier or harder, but obedience.
I agree. Which is why I find obedience to Scripture to be important.  Wink

 You also allude to the issue that there shouldnt be any "fuss" since women, in your opinion can share testimony and have influence....(sharing testimony would be in contradiction of 1Cor 14 by the way. If you are taking that as a mandate, then silence is silence).
Actually, "women should remain silent in the churches."
That does not preclude them from witnessing to friends, family, and other unsaved that they come into contact with. Hence, my comment "Though the Bible does preclude women from being pastors, it does NOT preclude them from sharing their testimony or being an influence."

The "fuss" is about being used as called by the Lord, and that people are not given mandate of authority simply because of gender. It is always a matter of character and of the heart.
No, it is a matter of following the Word of God!

But I do it find it odd that you want to try to pick apart those posts and yet ignored the two posts on Scripture. Hmmmmm......  Roll Eyes

Obviously women do have a role, it's just not as pastors.
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« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2003, 12:04:56 PM »

No sincere, I havent shunned away from Scripture. If you read over my prior posts, I have used Scriptural support for my position.

Petro-

Paul called Phoebe a diakonos. You agree this renders to minister or deacon.  There was no feminine form of diakonos in the NT or any church literature until about 300 yrs later. Both men and women were called deacons.

While servant is not an incorrect translation of the word diakonos, it might be better to translate it as "deacon" or "minister," as it is done in the other NT passages.

We have come to define deacon as something different than full-time minister. A deacon is a layperson serving on a board with others, helping the pastor run the business of the church. However, no such distinction applied in the NT.

Paul regularly used this term to refer to persons he clearly understood to be ministers of the Gospel: Christ, Apollos, Epaphras, Timothy, Tychicus, as well as himself.

Paul goes on to refer to Phoebe as a prostatis. This Greek word appears only this one time in the NT. Most translators render this word as "helper", however, that does not give it the full meaning it held in the Greek language.  In fact, we have no equivalent word in our language that is strong enough to give it true meaning. In other ancient literature, this word was used for Emperors, kings, governors, nobles, patriarchs, captains, and other authoritive officials.  Only one person was so described in the NT and that was Phoebe.



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« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2003, 09:00:51 PM »

Hi there!!

I not really new here though I hardly contribute........ I think I am defined as a lurker.

Anyway this is one subject which very close to my heart, and I encourage all of you to go the following website:

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/may.html

The articles (Priscilla Papers) and other information on this websites  which clearly states the correct transalations of these problem passages.

God Bless!!!






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Petro
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2003, 02:38:03 AM »

Quote
 posted by suzie as reply #76
Petro-


While servant is not an incorrect translation of the word diakonos, it might be better to translate it as "deacon" or "minister," as it is done in the other NT passages.
suzie

This is where you make your left turn, to go, teaching what you want to teach concerning Phoebe, to justify yourself, unfortunately fore you, scripture does not support your assumptions.
The word "diakonos" can be translated deacon, minister  or  servant, and in this case is translated servant, since "minister nor teacher is NOT the word that is in view herein for our sister Phoebe.
Since when one puts together the verses which you ignore, she being a woman, could never teach men, which a minister does do. Since it was commanded by the Lord for a woman not to usurp authority over a man (1 Tim 2;12), but to be in silence.
Now you want to teach us, because Paul speaks highly of  Phoebe, you take it to mean she taught him, (this is why it is imperative the word "minister" be used according to you,  the fact is Paul himself says she  was a great help to him, no doubt in meeting his financial and physical needs.
And this is more in line with the word "diakonia" which is the greek word describing the attending ministry of ministers, in performing the service of the church, she provided aid, asistance and relief, which was the duty tended to, by the first deacons mentioned in Acts 6, which I brought to your attention.
It is false to teach that deacons ran the affairs of the church, they did assist the Pastor, this is a pipe dream, the ruling and overseeing of the church was given to the elders, and a Pastor or Bishop was an elder, and he was appointed to the office by them, they (the elders) sat in attendance to judge the matter brought before the church at the   1st Council at Jerusalm, there is no mention of deacons deciding nor even assembling themselves to consider the matter.
You need to read all of Acts 6 carefully, before jumping to conclusions.
The next word you raise proves this point clearly.
Quote
We have come to define deacon as something different than full-time minister. A deacon is a layperson serving on a board with others, helping the pastor run the business of the church. However, no such distinction applied in the NT.
By the use of the word "we", you mean, those of you who are compelled to change the teaching of scripture and the ignoring of the Lords command to suit your on agenda and purposes.
Quote
Paul regularly used this term to refer to persons he clearly understood to be ministers of the Gospel: Christ, Apollos, Epaphras, Timothy, Tychicus, as well as himself.
The difference is these you name are men, not women, quite a difference.
Quote
Paul goes on to refer to Phoebe as a prostatis. This Greek word appears only this one time in the NT. Most translators render this word as "helper", however, that does not give it the full meaning it held in the Greek language. In fact, we have no equivalent word in our language that is strong enough to give it true meaning. In other ancient literature, this word was used for Emperors, kings, governors, nobles, patriarchs, captains, and other authoritive officials. Only one person was so described in the NT and that was Phoebe.

This word in its context, proves Phoebe was a servant ministering to the physical needs, since it is clear she was not a teacher, teaching Paul.
Note, your attention is invited to the entire verse, which contains the english word "succour" or in the greek "prostatis";
Rom 16
That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

What did she teach Paul about scripture??  Clearly he is reffering to his physical needs, being met, by the sister.

Notice the word used to define the service of ministers (of which, one could be teaching the word), but not in Phoebes case, she was prohibited by the Word of God to teach men, however not of ministering and tending to their physical financial needs.
2 Cor 8
8:1  Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2  How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3  For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4  Praying us with much entreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering (diakonia) to the saints.
5  And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.[/.b]

The word "diakonia" is a word which describes the service provided by "diakonos" and it ir rooted in the same word #1249.

I told you already, your imagination is decieving you greatly, you assume that your conclusions are logical, and therefore true; .............sadly I must inform you,...........  

They are not, you can wish it, all you want, but unfortunately, you are a deceived person, trying to deceive others.

Petro
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2003, 12:50:44 PM »

Quote
posted by suzie at reply #76
We have come to define deacon as something different than full-time minister. A deacon is a layperson serving on a board with others, helping the pastor run the business of the church. However, no such distinction applied in the NT.

Correcting what I said before about the office a deacon.

Let re-etirate, a deacon ..........is not a pastor, clearly this is where you wonder off the straight and narrow path.

True, they minister to the needs of the assembly, instructing them in the way they should go, is part of the ministry, but to claim this makes them pastors, in the sense of the word as used today, is not being honest.

Elders govern or rule, Bishops are appointed by elders (1 Tim 5:17), they were ordained  or appointed by Apostles in every city, (Titus 1:5), they must be apt to teach (1 Tim 3:2); this is not say that Paul in his letter to Timothy, excludes all other soldioers of Christ from being teachers, all Christians should be able to teach the good word of God to the unlearned.

Which reminds me, Timothy was admonished by Paul;

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

This is what we have been kicking around,  your mfoolish and unlearned points of view, it is plain you do not wish to accept scripture as written, so you have to re write it to suit your needs.

I say carry on..


OPetro
I leave you now, to your own desires
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2003, 04:22:35 PM »

Petro-

I have not wandered anywhere. The word diakonos is used 21 times in Paul's letters. It is translated as deacon 3 times, minister 3 times, servant 14 times and as promote once.

Paul referred to 14 individuals with the term diakonos or one of its cognate words. Achaicus, Apollos, Archippus, Epaphras, Fortunatus, Mark, Onesimus, Onesphorus, Philemon, Timothy, Titus, And Tychicus. The 13th person is Stephana/Stephanas in which whose name could be man or woman.

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Petro
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2003, 08:29:05 PM »

suzie,

Actually it depends which version of scripture you embrace, which either supports or rejects the facts you appear to present herein; either way as I said before your info, doesn't support women being pastors, so what is your point, the men whom you refer to, were deacons and some did teach, it doesn't mean all taught, and for sure they were not Pastors.

Deacon only appears five times in the KJV,  the greek word translated deacon appers over thirty times. It usually translated servant for a reason, since in the context it describes Christians meeting  the material of fellow Christians.

Your use of the NIV and the descriptiuon of Phoebe as a deaconess, inspires your active imagination, about promoting her to an Elder, Bishop, Pastor status, but unfortunately;

I got to tell you, you are al ong way, from being able to justify your teachings.

It is interesting you only refer to the NIV translation of the words deaconess, and then abandon the description of her service, by claiming the word succour means something other than what it was translated as, notice at verse 2.

KJV translates "succour" as helper..., even helping Paul.
NIV translates and uses the very words "great help"...
RSV translates the same word "helper" of many...
NEB use the words "good friend" to many....

While it is not incorrect, to say, one who helps or meets the needs of others in the church as a service to the church, is executing a ministry, it is not quite accurate to state, that because one ministers in such a way, this makes them a pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet or apostle and therefore automatically makeing them something they are not.

The duty and aspiration of every Christian is and should be to edify the body of Christ, within the context and bounds of the teaching of Gods Word.

Women are bound to submit themselves first into subjection to their own husbands, and not to teach men, nor usurp authority over men.

Any woman who espouses what you espouse, obviously has not learned obedience, and rejects the teaching of the Word, not to mention they offend the commands of the  Lord, and reveal that, thou, they may consider themselves spiritual, they are far from it.

Desiring to be a teacher of men, they have need of being taught.

The word Pastor is defined in scripture an is synonymous with the word Shepherd (most specifically they [pastors] are given as a gift to the church by Christ) (Eph4:11-12) as one who feeds, leeds, and oversees the church of Christ.

Nothing you have given or presented herein, teaches nor justifies, the position you propose,

Women are not supported to be Pastors, by scripture.

Period..

Petro
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 08:33:32 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2003, 09:14:41 PM »

Phoebe was a minister of the Gospel  who served the church in a public way. In the same manner as Paul in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"


Phoebe was also called a prostatis, translated in the NRSV as benefactor.  The word comes from the verb proistemi:to stand in front; Someone who stands in front of a group of people may be facing them, and therefore speaking to them;giving leadership and instruction. You can see where the translation benefactor comes from.  But prostatis goes further for it could also be translated champion,leader, or ruler.  It is the same verb which describes the activities of elders who rule well in 1 Timothy 5:17, elders who labor in preaching and teaching.
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2003, 11:37:50 PM »

Phoebe was a minister of the Gospel  who served the church in a public way. In the same manner as Paul in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"

suzie,

You do greatly error not knowing the scriptures, it is myour way to cherry pick verses, and then quote them out of context.

The Apostle Paul was an Apostle called out by Jesus himself, Phoebe was not an apostle, as I pointed out, He is a gift to the church as and Apostle, teacher minister of the Gosple
which was entrusted to HIM, by the Lord Himself.

There is no record Phoebe was ever an apostle, nor a pastor.

And your presupposition that she ever was, isn't not taught in the two verses you have quoted, she was faithful and did, serve as a helper to many including the Apostle Paul, that is all that can be said about her.

Quote
Phoebe was also called a prostatis, translated in the NRSV as benefactor.

Helper, benefactor is the same word, at least you are admitting she was a helper to them in need.  Itm is a far cry from what you were insisting in the begining.  There is a difference between helper and teacher, or pastor. For a moment I thought you incapable of distinguishing between the difference.

Quote
 The word comes from the verb proistemi:to stand in front;

It matters little where the word comes from, it is not "stand in front of" it is "helper", as I stated already.

Quote
Someone who stands in front of a group of people may be facing them, and therefore speaking to them;giving leadership and instruction. You can see where the translation benefactor comes from.  But prostatis goes further for it could also be translated champion,leader, or ruler.  It is the same verb which describes the activities of elders who rule well in 1 Timothy 5:17, elders who labor in preaching and teaching.

You really should pinch yourself to awaken yourself, you are dreaming.

Your last partagraph is the result of your tangent, that the word "helper" came from a certain root, and then by using your own logic, somehow conclude, that Phoebe preached and taught Paul.

Let's see, now, you would prefer the word to read as follows at;

Rom 16
2  That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a 4291 "proistemi" lit. to rule over of many, and of myself also.

Now you have Phoebe ruling over Paul... Hahh..

Sadly, this is not the word used therein and to use it would be to change the Word of God, which is what you have wanted to do from the begining.

You do, take the cake, now I know you are a heretic, and would prevert Gods word for your benefit.

Taking a word from one of the newer versions here and there, one could re write all of scripture, and this is apparently your aim.

Carry on by yourself.

Petro
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 11:42:43 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2003, 09:14:53 AM »

Petro-

I will once again ask that if you wish to dialogue on this issue, then I will continue, but if you are unable to refrain from making your sarcastic and pointedly diminishing remarks in another person's view to somehow uplift your own, then I will not participate with you.  Again, it not only diminishes the discussion, but truly says something about your own character as a christian and a person.Somehow you think that by name calling and remarks you can gain credibility.  While you may think this is acceptable, I do not. I can also use your very same argument toward your view.

Others were not indicated outright as apostles, such as Timothy, but was clearly a minister of the gospel and leader, as Paul states Phoebe was as well.

Phoebe was given the title prostatis, which is the only person described as this within the NT. You are diminishing the significance of this word.  This is no far cry from what I stated before, and my post does not indicate any variance from my others. You are reading into something that just isnt there. You may want to reread my post.  Actually, Servant/leader comes closer than helper because it describes a leader who champions for the cause of others. This is the connotation of this word, prostatis. Paul was giving her great honor.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 09:34:37 AM by suzie » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2003, 07:02:37 PM »

Petro-

I will once again ask that if you wish to dialogue on this issue, then I will continue, but if you are unable to refrain from making your sarcastic and pointedly diminishing remarks in another person's view to somehow uplift your own, then I will not participate with you.

Great..

Quote
Again, it not only diminishes the discussion, but truly says something about your own character as a christian and a person.Somehow you think that by name calling and remarks you can gain credibility.  While you may think this is acceptable, I do not. I can also use your very same argument toward your view.

Others were not indicated outright as apostles, such as Timothy, but was clearly a minister of the gospel and leader, as Paul states Phoebe was as well.

Phoebe was given the title prostatis, which is the only person described as this within the NT. You are diminishing the significance of this word.  This is no far cry from what I stated before, and my post does not indicate any variance from my others. You are reading into something that just isnt there. You may want to reread my post.  Actually, Servant/leader comes closer than helper because it describes a leader who champions for the cause of others. This is the connotation of this word, prostatis. Paul was giving her great honor.



suzie,

You are a heretic, because you teach heresy..

A heretic by definition as it pertains to theology, is a person; who teaches doctrine contrary to the fiundamental teachings of the church.  You would claim to belong to the church begun by Jesus, and entrusted to the Apostles and disciples.

You have been attempting to teach to this point, that Paul did not really mean what he wrote, about women, not to teach men, nor usurp authority over men, and that Paul lied when he said the things he had expounded on where a command of the Lord, not only making Paul out to be a liar, but contradicting the inspired Word of God, and rejecting the Lords Command (No doubt as I stated before you consider yourself to be spiritual)

And, now you, want us to believe the Phoebe a servant at a certain church, was a teacher, pastor, who ruled over Paul and many others.

How you get all this out of 1 verses of scripture to support your schism, just shows the lengths you are willing to go to prove you are right about such a theory, that a woman can be a pastor.

You have been admonished more than once about this schism of your, as not being supported by the Word, it is time to cut off the debate, you have gone to great lengths to wrest the written word, and deny, what is written is true.

Only by decietfully handling the Word of God, can you prove your theory, and you have proven that you are not able to handle the word accurately, but stumble at it.

Many have given you sound advice along the way of this thread, yet, you continue as a nagging child, to argue a point which is not provable, insisting you are right it this matter.

You think you can prove it, because by changing word meanings, an jumping to  conclusions, it is plausible.

I do not find it usefull to continue discussing this matter with with you, since you not only ignore scripture, but you twist it to your own  damnation.

This is probaly one reason why the Lord found it fit, to comand women to be silent in the church nor to teach men, to begin with..

 
Quote
Others were not indicated outright as apostles, such as Timothy, but was clearly a minister of the gospel and leader, as Paul states Phoebe was as well.

There certain qualifications which make Apostles, Apostles, you need to consider these before making further statementys on htis matter.

As for your quote above, You have made this point over and over several times;  My response to this is still the same.

Phoebe a servant at the church at Cenchrea, was nothing more than a helper, ministering, to many;  the word "prostatis" can hardly be considered a title, you only say it is , in order to claim a special status above and beyond others to her, unfortunately, this theory holds no water, since all translations translate the word "helper", I wouldn't put alot of stock in the Newer vernacular versions of scripture, you  love them and do, but it doesn't change the meaning of the word, one iota.

Next thing you will teach us Phoebe, was the  pastor of the church Cenchrea.

Dream on...

Petro

 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 07:39:15 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2003, 09:19:21 PM »

Petro-

Guess you just cant help yourself can you. You believe you can just label me as a heretic and that will make it right somehow.

As I have partaken of this study regarding women, I have at read from divergent viewpoints and interpretations of Scripture. I am sure you would label many of these "heretics" as well, because even of those who believe in the "traditional, or hierarchial" view, have variations of what exact role women "can play" within the context of church ministry.  

Even though you seem to think that those who support the egaltarian view of women in Scripture are "heretics", instead I have found they are learned scholars, Christian men and women who have spent great time and prayerful discernment in earnestly attempting to bring the most truthful meaning to these verses.

Culture and tradition can be deeply rooted and color our perception of Scripture. Often assumptions are made about these topics that are informed more from our society or traditions than by the Bible and the Gospel. We have witnessed this in the verses that were held up in regard to slavery as being a blessing both to master and slave. They earnestly believed that although negroes were created in the image of God, had souls, and could accept salvation, they were convinced the Bible divinely sanctioned slavery. They had verse and text to prove it. After much bloodshed and many, many years, we have come to the conclusion that those Christians who came before us, were on the wrong side of biblical interpretation.  However, those bible verses are still there that "promote" slavery. They were clearly seen by those who taught slavery as morally acceptable.

This produces dilemma. The Scriptures either approve of slavery and it isnt immoral to own slaves, or those verses that were interpretated as such are not to be taken as universal mandates and eternally binding.

This was to point to the fact that there can be believers who hold the Word as Truth, and can interpret passages differently. We see it all the time within these type of forums and even within our own Christian friends. The disagreement is in regard to application of hermeneutical principles, not inerrancy of the Word. However, I am sure you will not be in agreement with this either, since you seem to hold the "real truth" which is your interpretation of the Word and only that.

I believe Paul meant every word he wrote about women. I have held to Scripture for support of everything I have stated. This is not the only verse that supports women in ministry Petro. This is just one passage that we were focusing on.

You said:
"This is probaly one reason why the Lord found it fit, to comand women to be silent in the church nor to teach men, to begin with.." I think this gives insight into your mentality.

The diversity of gifts within the Church recognizes that the Spirit of God functions in different ways in different people. A person's task in the ministry of the Church is determined by the way the Spirit is manifested in that person's life and actions as in 1 Corinthians 12:11. Whether a woman or a man is given the privilege of serving the Church as a pastor, it is not based on that person's choice to do so, but on the recognition that the Spirit of God has led and empowered that person for pastoral ministry. The requirement for pastoral ministry is manifestation of the Spirit and not about being a male. Nowhere in the New Testament are the gifts of the Spirit determined by gender.

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« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2003, 01:01:47 AM »

Petro-

Guess you just cant help yourself can you. You believe you can just label me as a heretic and that will make it right somehow.

A heretic is a heretic, why, act as thou, we should politely agree with your teaching, and continue giving you the impression you are correct, the fact is you are not correct, and there is nothing more you can say, which will make it so.

Quote
As I have partaken of this study regarding women, I have at read from divergent viewpoints and interpretations of Scripture. I am sure you would label many of these "heretics" as well, because even of those who believe in the "traditional, or hierarchial" view, have variations of what exact role women "can play" within the context of church ministry.  

No doubt what you say may be true, however, the  same logic
you use to come to your conclusion is the one used to ascertain practicing homosexuals can be ordained pastors, or bishops.

If I was a gambling person, I would bet money you don't see anything wrong with practicing himosexuals being ordanied as pastors of Christians churches..

And your problem is exactly as you defined it, studying divergent viewpoints and interpretations (deviating, disagreeable, points that separate, will always lead to false conclusions.  You really should consider studying the truth of the Word of God. And changing the mean of the Words of God, will never bring to the true lite of the matter.

The label of heretic is one which describes perfectly those that twist the good Word of God, while claiming to be believers in it.  Lip service is all it is.

Jesus loves sinners, especially those who have been redeemed, and have put away such evil and vial thoughts, and behavior, recognizing that their sins were paid once and for all, and out of gratitude obey his commandments.

Obedience is more important than sacrifice to our Lord; "for the sin of disobedience (rebellion) is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry."  (1 Sam 15:23)

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Even though you seem to think that those who support the egaltarian view of women in Scripture are "heretics", instead I have found they are learned scholars, Christian men and women who have spent great time and prayerful discernment in earnestly attempting to bring the most truthful meaning to these verses.

I can assure you, they have not consulted God, to see, if He commanded such a thing, they are really, of the new enlightened age, liberals, who trample Gods word, and disregard the command, thinking themselves to wiser than the Apostle who spoke the Words of the Lord to those who con sider themselves to be spiritual.

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Culture and tradition can be deeply rooted and color our perception of Scripture. Often assumptions are made about these topics that are informed more from our society or traditions than by the Bible and the Gospel. We have witnessed this in the verses that were held up in regard to slavery as being a blessing both to master and slave. They earnestly believed that although negroes were created in the image of God, had souls, and could accept salvation, they were convinced the Bible divinely sanctioned slavery. They had verse and text to prove it. After much bloodshed and many, many years, we have come to the conclusion that those Christians who came before us, were on the wrong side of biblical interpretation.  However, those bible verses are still there that "promote" slavery. They were clearly seen by those who taught slavery as morally acceptable.

Don't muddy the water more than is needed,  you are already unable to see the dilema you are experiencing, one of ignoring the scriptures.  Jesus commanded the Apostle to write the inspired words which you and others reject outright.  You even have yourself convienced Paul was just blowing smoke, and that Jesus, never said the words written in verse at;

Note;

1 Cor 14
37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

If you are a woman and desire to prophecy, according to verse 34, you are not to do it in the church.

To prophecy is to give out the word of God. There is nothing to preclude a woman from prohecying outside the church, but the command is to remain silent in the church.

You say, this is not true, you  claim Paul did not really teach this at all, you say, woman have a right and should teach men,  can and should prophecy in the church, as a pastor.

This is false.


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This produces dilemma. The Scriptures either approve of slavery and it isnt immoral to own slaves, or those verses that were interpretated as such are not to be taken as universal mandates and eternally binding.

This was to point to the fact that there can be believers who hold the Word as Truth, and can interpret passages differently. We see it all the time within these type of forums and even within our own Christian friends. The disagreement is in regard to application of hermeneutical principles, not inerrancy of the Word. However, I am sure you will not be in agreement with this either, since you seem to hold the "real truth" which is your interpretation of the Word and only that.

You are confused.

Your holding, to what is not right, as the truth,  and opposing the very commands of Jesus, is "willfull disobedience" which is unrighteousness,  and this position makes you unrighteous, and comdemnation is assured to all those who hold to the truth in unrighteousness

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I believe Paul meant every word he wrote about women. I have held to Scripture for support of everything I have stated.  This is just one passage that we were focusing on.

No, you don't, you only agree with Paul so long as he agrees with you.  And in order to justify this you pick and choose the words, which have been translated to suit you. You even translate and intechange the meaning of words, as thou they are all they same, and somehow your doing it, makes it right.

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This is not the only verse that supports women in ministry Petro.

In order to clarify this quote, I have to state that I have
not disagreed with this point at all, from the begining; what I have taken you to task about is,your insistence the women can and should be Pastors. So don't squirm around limiting your point to women and ministries, scripture is clear, Phoebe and others were helpers and ministered, no doubt excersizing their gift of helps.  There is absolutely no evidence they were Pastors, nor did they teach men.
As women Pastors today do.

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The diversity of gifts within the Church recognizes that the Spirit of God functions in different ways in different people. A person's task in the ministry of the Church is determined by the way the Spirit is manifested in that person's life and actions as in 1 Corinthians 12:11.

1 Cor 12
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

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a woman or a man is given the privilege of serving the Church as a pastor, it is not based on that person's choice to do so, but on the recognition that the Spirit of God has led and empowered that person for pastoral ministry.

The verse you quoted, doesn't prove anything towards women being raised up as a Pastor, in fact in its context the gifts distributed by the Spirit in this passage are listed in verses 8thru 10, and if it please the same spirit that women be silent in the churches, then is it for the same reason that everyone profit from this thing.

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uirement for pastoral ministry is manifestation of the Spirit and not about being a male. Nowhere in the New Testament are the gifts of the Spirit determined by gender.

The manisfestion of the Spirit is given to profit withal (1 Cor 12:7), He (speaking of Jesus) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph 4:10-12)

It is here you will find those whom Jesus gives as gifted men to the church, to hold the offices He has given them (note the apsotles and prophets were always men, for those who have been taught by Him as the truth is in Him, these teachings are not somehting which are taken lightly.  The Apostles ordained men as Elders (Titus 1:5) chosen men by the church as  deacons, and were appointed by the Apostles (Acts 6:1-6)  All were men, evangelists, pastors and teachers are chosen by Jesus in the spirit, there is nothing that says a woman, cannot be either, but the fact that they are commanded to be silent in the congregation, excludes them from the Pastorate since it is clear a pastor leads and teaches men in the church.

Women are commanded to be silent.

And I can see plainly your mentality, and the problem you have with being in subjection to the Word of God, any woman,
who argues with men, does so because they are
trying to convince men, to bite the apple, they have already eaten of.

Thanks but no thanks...............

You are trying to convince the wrong person, you really should take this conversation up with the Lord.

Petro
 




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suzie
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« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2003, 11:02:38 AM »

Petro-

Name calling and dismissing other believers who do not share in your views, and making false assumptions about them. Unfortunately, your insistance to use these tactics makes any type of discussion almost impossible, but then, that is one way to dominate--I would wonder what would motivate someone to do this?

It still remains that God did, has and will rise up women leaders, teachers and those called to ministry despite culture and tradition. God gives gifts in ministry in accordance to His Spirit for the building up of the body of believers regardless of gender. Whether you want to believe this or not does not change that.

When you have gained self control and wish to discuss the Scriptures and issue themselves, I will gladly accept to do so.

BTW-Geetam, I have visited this website a few times. I think it is great and thanks for posting it for others.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2003, 11:15:34 AM by suzie » Logged
Petro
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« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2003, 11:00:22 PM »

Petro-

Name calling and dismissing other believers who do not share in your views, and making false assumptions about them. Unfortunately, your insistance to use these tactics makes any type of discussion almost impossible, but then, that is one way to dominate--I would wonder what would motivate someone to do this?

Whatever...suzie,

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It still remains that God did, has and will rise up women leaders, teachers and those called to ministry despite culture and tradition. God gives gifts in ministry in accordance to His Spirit for the building up of the body of believers regardless of gender. Whether you want to believe this or not does not change that.

I believe what you have stated, and have no problem with what you say, as long as you remember he does not raise up women to be Pastors, liberal women, MAKE  themselves pastors, and those who care less what the Lords commands are, approve and ordain woman, and all other sorts of persons to be Pastors.

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When you have gained self control and wish to discuss the Scriptures and issue themselves, I will gladly accept to do so.

Actually  I haven't lost anything, I refered to you as a heretic while in control of all my faculties.

By the way, I did want to coment on your statement;

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As I have partaken of this study regarding women, I have at read from divergent viewpoints and interpretations of Scripture.

What makes these view points you have studied, "divergent", is not, that they disagree with men, nor culture of the times or whatever else you presume; what makes them divergent and heretical is that threy disagree with the Apostle, and Jesus himself.  You need to think about this.

Instead of studying error you should spend good time, studying the Word of God.

The teaching that women, cannot be teachers of men nor over rule over men, was a fundamental teaching in the early
church for centuries, from the begining, it is only in the 20th century with the liberalization of the woman, and the  re translating of the Word of God into the vernacular english by translators unfit for the  task, that this idea was hatched.

I encourage you to seek God on this matter, and not listen to them that have hatched their own preconcieved notions about what they think Paul said or didn't say, He tells us that "those who consider themselves to be spiritual should consider what he has spoken of with regard to order and o bedience, to be a commend of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus, exhorts all of His people as follows;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Anyone who says Jesus did not command what Paul claims He commanded, is decieved already.

Blessings,
Petro
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