Eternal Security Of The Believer

[Petro]

I believe we do have eternal security with Jesus, however, I do believe we can fall away and lose our salvation. We have free will even after becoming born again.
There are some verses in the scriptures which make it clear to me, here are some examples where Jesus makes it clear that some of "His" will not be saved.

 Mat 25:1-13 speaks about ten "virgins" the term virgin denotes pure, or His. All had oil lamps, in other words, all had Jesus, but some were foolish and lost their share of oil.

 Mat 25:14-30 speaks about a "master" who called "his servants" however, some of "his servants" did not receive his approval.

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again. We all have a certain amount of time to accept Jesus. When He returns in the "end times" at His appointed time, time is up, and if we are not in His service at that time, then we are doomed. The story of the prodigal son is a great example of a "son" leaving his father and returning and being welcomed back with open arms. The son was not received back because of some great work he had completed while he was away, he was a miserable failure without his father and he returned humiliated and humbled and willing to be a servant, so I do not believe we can do anything to save ourselves, we must kneel before the most awsome, powerful, wonderful force in the universe and beyond...Jesus... but Jesus will not force us to stay, He promised us free will and He keeps His promises.

Take care my brothers and sisters.

Bronzesnake.

bronzesnake,


Nice to see you, back posting with us.

No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)

If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??  

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins.

What do these verses mean, to you??

Heb 10
4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7  Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

and,

Rom 5
8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through One, Jesus Christ. (NAS)



Notice verse 16, that the free gift by grace (vs 15) is given in spite of many offenses (vs 16)  unto justification,  
because of the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in life through the One, JESUS CHRIST


In otherwords, as I read, these verses, I see, the security of eternal life is NOT based (Not believers own performance), but Christ's Life) on the believers own performance, but based on the  free gift of grace, that leads to justification,through the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST.


What is wrong with this premise..??

God Bless,
Petro
 

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Petro.

Thanks for the welcome back...it's good to hear from you all.

"No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)"

Of course.

"If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??  

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins."

 Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However, not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

 I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

 The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

[Petro]

Hello Petro.

Thanks for the welcome back...it's good to hear from you all.

"No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)"

Of course.

"If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??  

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins."

 Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However,

 I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

 The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

bronzesnake,

I thought you believed in the "eternal security of the believer",  it is odd, you stated;

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again.

The word we is what didn't sound right, to me....

Now you say:

 

I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

Maybe I had forgotten you don't believe the blood of Jesus covers all sins.

How does this last statement you have made reconcile itself to the sin that causes you to "fall away", you seem to contradict your statement wherein you stated:

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

As I underdstand it, Anyone who comes to saving FAITH in Jesus is saved once and forever, I am not speaking of people that believe, I am speaking of people that BELIEVE, see there is two types of belief, one is to believe without commiting oneself, and the other type is belieivng with commitment.

What kind of belief are you refering to??

If there is sin that can cause you to fall away, how can you say you believe His blood is enough to cover all sins of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future?

Either His blood covers all sins or it doesn't, which is it??

not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

No one is saved that doesn't believe Jesus shed His blood for their sins, and rose for their justification, this is clear from scripture.

Those who are saved, become children of God, born by the will of God, not of the flesh.  (Jhn 1:13)

All who fall in this category, are Sved, Sealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead and become New Creatures in Christ, there names are Written in Heaven, they are given a New Heart and a New Spirit

I guess, you believe, those who believe without committing themselves are also in this category??

That doesn't sound quite right....




Blessings,
Petro

[Brother Love]

Eternal Security Of The Believer

Preaching The Grace Of God – From The King James Bible – Dispensationally Delivered

Berean Bible Church – Edgewater, Florida – Doug Dodd s.b.g. - Pastor

Eternal life has always been an issue of faith not of works. Man can be saved eternally based upon his faith in what God tells him to believe. The content of faith can change from one dispensation to the next but the mechanics stay the same. For example:

Noah

1. Noah needed to be saved from God's wrath,

2. God told Noah what he had to do to escape that wrath,

3. Noah's faith in what God said caused him to build the ark.

Today

1. Man needs to be saved from God's coming wrath.

2. God tells us what we must do to escape that wrath.

3. Our faith in what God says causes us to believe the gospel of grace.

The question arises, "Is once saved always saved" a true statement?

The reason this question gets asked is because of a failure to understand the cross work of Christ.

VERSE: 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

VIEWPOINT: When Christ died two thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day".

VICTORY: We no longer have to carry around the guilt of our sins. He has set us free from the bondage and domination of sin so that we could do something we could never do before -- serve Him!

VERSE: Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

VIEWPOINT: Eternal life is a promise from God, who, by the way, cannot lie!! Eternal life = eternal life, life that is eternal, just as eternal death = death that lasts forever. Notice that God promised eternal life "before the world began"! Before He made a when or a where He had you and me in mind all the time.

VICTORY: God keeps his promise.

VERSE: Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

VIEWPOINT: God hath (past tense!) made us ACCEPTED in the beloved (Christ). All we have, we have because of Calvary. God made us accepted. We were not acceptable on our own but in Christ we have been made accepted.

VICTORY: When God looks at us he sees his Son!

VERSES: Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved

US

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIEWPOINT: We are NOT saved by our good works i.e. trying to stop sin in our lives. We have been saved by grace (the provision of God) through faith (believing what God says).

VICTORY: If we are unable to save ourselves are we foolish enough to think we could keep ourselves? God has provide a better way, he has provided himself for us.

VERSES: 2 Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13...: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

VICTORY: The seal of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

VERSES: Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

VIEWPOINT: From God's viewpoint we are seated already in the heavens. Our life is hid with Christ in God and when Christ comes back we will go to be with him.

VICTORY: Seated with Christ in glory above, another recipient of his wonderful love.

VERSES: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

VIEWPOINT: We have been called according to his purpose i.e. He is forming the church the body of Christ. The gospel call goes out. Those who respond are "the called, justified and glorified (present perfect tense) eternal saints of God.

VICTORY: If God be for us, and he is, who can be against us? Answer: Not nobody, not no how!

SUMMARY: Is once saved always saved true? Yes! Why, because we are such good, wonderful, courageous people? No, but because of the total provision of God for us through Christ.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!! To the above study. Ambassador4Christ
 

 Amen, A4c I will be at Doug Dodds fellowship in April.

[Everyday Newborn]

Petro,

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask.  But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations.  You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.  

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

[Allinall]

Bronze Man!  Welcome back Bro!  How ya feelin'?

Anywho, I wanted to touch base on your statement here and ask you a question:

Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However, not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

If that is so my brother, then how do you explain this?

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Our bodies are from God.  The Holy Spirit, Who takes up residence and makes that body a temple, is from God.  We are not our own.  Who's then are we?  God's.  We have been bought with a price.  What price?  The blood of Jesus Christ, amen?  Question - If this body is from God, the Spirit that enlivens me is from God, and the privilege, the body, the temple and the very life have all been provided by, and bought through the blood of His Son, how then can I ever make a free-will choice to be unbought?

The question then becomes, will God ever give me back because of my sinful choices?

...for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Hebrews 13:5b

Great havin' ya back Bro!

[Petro]

Petro,

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask.  But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations.  You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.  

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

everyday newborn,

What is the truth??

It is clear to me you, do not have it...whether it is because of unbelief or lack of faith, I cannot say..........but truth that is revealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead, is not to be rebuffed for the embracing of man made teachings.

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

It is fruitless to discuss such an important subject with someone, who believes he/she has it, I am not seeking truth, I am sharing it with you....

God loves you and desires you know it, and not allow yourself to be led by every whim of mans teachings, this is why  Jesus said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..

Blessings,

Petro

[Everyday Newborn]

ALLINALL, my coffee buddy!  How have you been?

I do have a question for you about what you said in your post about, "how then can I ever make a free-will choice to be unbought?"

Do you still sin after you have accepted Christ?  If you lose your free will after you have been bought, are you saying that God is sinning through you?

Before we accept Christ, are our sins forgiven?  No.  Why not?  Because we haven't accepted Christ and asked for his forgiveness and repented.  Now after we accept Christ, do you think we still need to ask forgiveness for the sins we commit, and repent of them?  Do you think we still need to try and turn from our evil ways whatever they may be?

In 1 Cor 6:19-20, the last part said for us to glorify God in our bodies.  Is he not speaking to us that WE need to glorify God in our bodies?  Doesn't that make it something we have to do?  If we have no free will and only God works through us, is God commanding himself to glorify himself through us?

In the Hebrews scripture 13:5b, is a point that I think some people miss in this debate.  God makes the promise that HE will never leave nor forsake us, and when we have that fellowship with him we reap all the promises that he gives us.  In order for us to reap it, we have to accept it.  Now if we suddenly reject it, do we still reap the promises he gives?  If we do, then is it okay to continue in our sin after we've accepted Christ, do we need to take up our cross daily, do we have to show that we love him by obeying his commands since his grace will cover all sins?

Please remember, and consider this.  I'm trying to make a distinction here, between someone who walks with God yet stumbles here and there because they're not perfect, who humbles himself before God and asks for forgiveness of his sins, and tries to do God's will to the best of his ability.  If this person continues to do so, he will remain in God's love, will he not?  But if a person hardens their heart and doesn't ask for forgiveness of his sins and instead decides to justify it and/or ignore what God says about it, will such a person still have fellowship with God?  Will someone who sins and says it's okay because 'God's grace covers me.', will have a place in God's kingdom?  Is God's Grace a means to justify sin?  Does sin not have any consequence after we have given our life to Christ?


Let me know what your thoughts are on this.  

God bless

[Everyday Newborn]

Petro,

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask.  But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations.  You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.  

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

everyday newborn,

What is the truth??

It is clear to me you, do not have it...whether it is because of unbelief or lack of faith, I cannot say..........but truth that is revealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead, is not to be rebuffed for the embracing of man made teachings.

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

It is fruitless to discuss such an important subject with someone, who believes he/she has it, I am not seeking truth, I am sharing it with you....

God loves you and desires you know it, and not allow yourself to be led by every whim of mans teachings, this is why  Jesus said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..

Blessings,

Petro

Again, you lack love and humbleness in your response.

Truth is in the word of God, and you said yourself it's fruitless to discuss something like this with someone who claims to have it, which then in the very next part of the sentence you said you did and I didn't.  You hypocrite!  I say I'm seeking the truth because I don't claim to know everything and this is a learning process for me, and will be till the day I die.  But you claim to know it all and again exposed your arrogance.

God bless

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Petro.

I do believe that Jesus' sacrifice covers all sin...didn't you read that in my post to you?

 Answer me this Petro.
Why are we here on this earth waiting for Jesus to return?
 His sacrifice is great enough to cover all sin, so why not just end this earth age now and welcome every man, woman, and child into the eternal Kingdom regardless of what sins we are all guilty of ? The way you seem to convey His sacrificial work, there is no person capable of of being condemned to hell at all.

 The truth of the matter is that even after we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we must still do as He commanded us to do. We still have "work" to do. Now please, don't misunderstand me... I do not believe we can "work" our way into Heaven, without accepting Jesus we will get nothing but eternal damnation, but, Jesus makes it clear in many of His scriptures that some of "His" servants will be rebuked for being "unprofitable".

Here, in this following verse, the word servant is used to make a clear distinction that He is referring to one of His.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  

There are several other places in scripture where Jesus clearly warns us not to be lazy at the risk of losing our eternal security.

 Let me be clear again...His sacrifice is more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child regardless of what sins we have committed...yet many will fall short and end up in eternal hell.

 I am saved by the blood of Jesus Petro, but Jesus is very specific about the "work" that I must do before He returns. Please carefully re-read the verses I posted from Mat 25. look at the terminology that is used to describe exactly who is being described and what eventually happens to them, and why.

Take care Petro.

Allinall Thank you for the welcome back. My health is precarious, but for the time being I am enjoying my time back here talking with all the fantastic, faithful Christians.

[Petro]

bronzesanke,

One could hardly use the parable of the ten virgins to teach, the doctrine of "lose your salvation" at Mat 25, it is clear the five unwise virigns were not known to the groom

There are many today, that assume that because they know something of God, or Jesus, they are known by God or Jesus, this is flooshness, they may believe they are a part of the the church, but unfortunately this is only a presumption on their part. And ususally these believe this, because they believe they can do something to be a part of the Bride of Christ, it is "faith and their works" which ultimately will save them.

Oh yes, they understand that Jesus died for their sins and they claim to believe all the doctrines in the right order, but when it gets right down to it, its their contribution of their "little mite" of works,  that will make it come to pass.

The parable of the talents, is not as clear cut as the one preceding it, but it can hardly be used to prove "salvation the free gift"  is lost because of what men do after they are saved, don't get me wrong, I believe Christians will produce fruit and will perform work for the Lord, but it is not to what caps or secures "eternal salvation" it is the result of loving to serve God, because of what He has done for His servants.

For those who do not believe Faith is given by God, it is natural to except, that it is there faith which produced their salvation, and very naturally leads to a rationalizing of this doctrine which believes a man can lose the "free gift" of salvation.

If a christian can lose salvation, how is it, that this is possible, is it because a christian can jump out of Gods hand (as some woman stated once), Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It is clear if no man can pluck Christians out of the Father's hand, this would include the person themselves

No, I do not believe in this doctrine that teaches man is ultimately saved, because He did some work which clinched the "Free Gift" of God,

...........it is clear to me God equips every person whom He calls, even giving them the necessary FAITH to believe in Jesus;

Having Pre destinated them unto adoption, and to be conformed into the image of His dear Son, by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, and it is all based on Jesus's finished works at the cross, and His Faith which is imputed to them that believe.

[bNot our Faith but, the Faith of Jesus.

The lose your faith doctrine appears to be a different gospel
in the end based on mans faith and his works.

Notice this verses;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:22


16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be
Gal 2:16

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:22

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12


Although Rev 14:12 is a dispensational verse  but, I believe Christians do keep Gods commandments, not perfectly, in the letter, but in the spirit, for the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life, and its thru many offenses (Rom 5:16) men are justified, because where ever sin abounded,  grace did much more abound:(Rom 5:20)


It is all only by the power of Gods Holy Spirit in us,  that any  can be in the FAITH of Jesus Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1-2)


Blessings,

Petro

[AJ]

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

Someone forgot to finish this verse


Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10  For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11  And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

[Bronzesnake]

Hi Petro.

We can argue against each other's views on this topic but it isn't going to do anyone any good. I have stated the reasons for my belief on the subject, as have you.

I will however, point out one more verse which AJ posted, and ask you to think about it.

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

This verse makes it clear that those who were once "enlightened" can "fall away" and in fact, once this occurs they are doomed to hell, because it is "impossible to renew them again unto repentance."

 Petro, it is impossible to argue against such a clear cut verse such as this that is very specific about those who have fallen away, and lost their eternal salvation.

Take care my brother.

[Petro]

Hi Petro.

We can argue against each other's views on this topic but it isn't going to do anyone any good. I have stated the reasons for my belief on the subject, as have you.

I will however, point out one more verse which AJ posted, and ask you to think about it.

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

This verse makes it clear that those who were once "enlightened" can "fall away" and in fact, once this occurs they are doomed to hell, because it is "impossible to renew them again unto repentance."

 Petro, it is impossible to argue against such a clear cut verse such as this that is very specific about those who have fallen away, and lost their eternal salvation.

Take care my brother.

bronzesnake,

This verse is the most abused, by the lose your slavation camp, brother, and primarily because it is  interpreted to mean one can lose slavation, when in fact the words "it is impossible" sets the interpretation of this verse as a hypothetical statement in stone.

One cannot, take it, and make it state, what it does not stae at all;  Note the Interlinear version;

Heb 6
4  For [it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6  and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

What these verses clearly state, is this;

It is impossible for anyone who is saved, and falls away,........ to  be renewed again to repentance.

Even the heretic J.B. Phillips gets it right, in his vernacular version;

6  "When you find men who have been enlightened, who received the Holy Spirit
5  who have known the wholesome nourishment of the Word of God and touched the spiritual resources of the eternal world
6  and who then fall away, it proves impossible to make them repent as they did at first.  For they are recrucifying the Son of God in their own souls, and by their conduct exposing him to shame and contempt.

If this were "possible", for those who are saved to "fall away" (by sinning, And What is Sin??  see 1 John 3:4), it would be impossible to bring them back to repentance, this is clearly the teaching of these verses.

But this is not what this camp teaches, they teach that a man can fall away and after losing his free-giftbe brought back to repentance, and once again enjoy fellowship with God, because he can be restored, back to sonship.

If this is true, I ask you, whose blood is sacrificed at that alter
for the sin, which caused this sinners restoration??

The very fact you state, that Jesus's blood is enough to pay for all sin, past, present and future, but that a man can be saved, sin and become unsaved, and later repent and be re-saved, tells me you have not given this verse much thought at all.

Its nothing but the blood of Jesus.

He died once and for all, covered all the sins of those who are saved, and inspite of many offenses, the ones who are called chosen, elect saints will be justified, by His Blood and Resurrection.

The "lose slavation" doctrine on the surface appears to be and innocent misunderstanding of Gods Word, it actuality it is a decptive doctrine, that brings men into bondage of works, by which they expect to be made righteous because they keep some kind of Law, yet is clear Paul counted all this as dung, notice what he says about it;

Phiul 3
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

You can insert the word "commandment/s" for the word "law" at verse 9, and you have the insidious teaching which glorifies men and not God.

Don't feel as thou you must believe what I have shared with you, call me a liare if you will, but consider what the Word clearly says at these verses that is all, I simply ask you, to think about it.


God Bless,

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Petro my brother.


I can say the same to you my friend...
Don't feel as though you must believe what I have shared with you, call me a liar if you will, but consider what the Word clearly says in these verses that is all, I simply ask you, to think about it.

Petro quote...
"This verse is the most abused, by the lose your slavation camp, brother, and primarily because it is  interpreted to mean one can lose slavation, when in fact the words "it is impossible" sets the interpretation of this verse as a hypothetical statement in stone.
 
One cannot, take it, and make it state, what it does not stae at all;  Note the Interlinear version;"

Heb 6
4  For [it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6  and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

This verse is most misunderstood by those of us who subscribe to OSAS.

Notice that it doesn't say 'It is impossible for those once enlightened to fall away'

It reads...

[it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6  and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

Plain and simple Petro, it isn't difficult to read, and it states that people who fall away are doomed...period, don't re-interpret it to say something else.

Here is another example of men who called on the name of Jesus, believing they were saved, but Christ had an eye opening response to them...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven[/b]; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus clear states that we must do something to enter His Kingdom... we must do His Father's will.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
This verse makes it clear that these men truely believed they were saved Christians by prophecying and doing "wonderful works" in His name.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



God Bless,

Bronzesnake...By the way Petro, I would never call you a liar.