Eternal Security Of The Believer

[Bronzesnake]

Allinall, my brother.

Bronzesnake quote...

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.  I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.  But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.  Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."
 
Allinall,

To interpret this passage in the way you have, they've all lost their salvation, because they've lost their first love.

 I haven't interpreted it at all. I simply read it for what it says.

Jesus makes a clear distinction that each of these seven churches are "His", (Christians) and that is important to understand because it distinguishes exactly who He is directing His Revelations to.

After He makes it clear that He is addressing His church, He goes on to "warn" them that they must do His "work" or face the terrible prospect of loosing their eternal gift. He warns those of us who have fallen away that we can still be saved, but we must repent, and do the works you did at first They have not lost their salvation...yet However, they are in danger of losing it, if they don't obey His instructions to them.

Sorry I can't continue this conversation any longer my brother, I am very sick today and I'm going back to bed.

Bronzesnake

[Allinall]

Hope you get your rest bro.  I'm prayin' for you.  

[Everyday Newborn]

Bronzesnake,

As Allinall said, hope you get your rest and get better soon bro.  I'm praying for you.

God bless

[Petro]

Its the same old argument, you desire to argue over, this is the reason you posted what you did, not because you want to learn, you have had these arguments before. So quit acking as thou you are the inujured party.

I desire to share my point of view

everydfay newborn

At least you are honest, and recognize this doctrine to be your view point. It is when you begin to teach it as though it was inspired that causes divisions.

you desire to share yours,

Thats where you are wrong, what I have shared with you is not my viewpoint, it is what Gods Word teaches, pure and simple.

it is not one that is in love and humbleness.

Oh, some  may schmooze you, and make you feel good by agreeing with you about the lose your salvation teaching, but in reality, love is reflected in the giving of Gods word out in truth and righteousness, and keeping the weak brethern from stumbling, it is good to keep Gods commandments, but, your viewpoint makes it clear, that by not keeping it, one can lose the gift.

And that is unscriptural.

Does that mean you're free to do what you want without any consequences, because you're saved and God's grace covers you?  If so, where does it say it's okay to sin?  If not, then what are the consequences of deliberate sin?

The scriptures answer this very question, perhaps if you should read Rom 5:15, through Rom 8:39, this will help you.

re those who believe that they must do works to get into heaven, but that is not the doctrine I'm sharing here.

You are speaking of unbelievers here, now....then??

Well, that changes everything, you quoted an OT scripture, to shore up this doctrine of sin and lose your gift.

Is it because you did not understand it?

commands  us to obey, and by doing so we'll remain in his love.  What happens if we don't obey is we won't remain in his love.

One can read about this very thing, concerning a fellow Christian in the early church at 1 Cor 5:1-5.

God is a jealouse God, especially for His namesake, Paul said  to the jews at;

Rom 2
24  For the name of God  is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


God will allow satan to kill the flesh of those who insist on living in sin, who claim the blood of Jesus, even to kill the body, that the spirit might be saved.  So for this reason it is good to obey, it is the duty of Christians to be obedient, by this,one proves they Love the Lord.  Obedience produces more Faith, from Faith unto Faith., the Just shall live by Faith.


But the fearful, and the unbelievingand the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Those who reject Jesus own words, are counted among those who are unbeliving, there are christians (they claim to be anyhow,) and yet reject Jesus own words concerning eternal life of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

Those who reject that eternal life is not the present state while claiming Jesus as savior, are really unbelievers, they are deceived.  Believers in Jesus, know and believe that they have eternal life, in Him, and it is based on what He did, at Calvary, not on their own performance.

This is the reason why I down play the need to keep the commandments, I say let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

How can someone be saved who isn't in Christ's love?

When God gives those whom, He choses to the Son, they become the beloved, and these, are loved by Him, and we are assured, there is nothing that can separate us from His love,  nothing neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:35_39, you really should read Rom 8.

obey because we become slaves to God (Rom 6), and tells us what the results are for being obedient.  When we are obedient as slaves we are doing the will of the Father.  If we deliberately become disobedient, we're not in his will and have broken fellowship with him.  

We become like those who say 'Lord, Lord' but are cast away because they did not do the Father's will.  In our obedience to his Word, we are in the Father's love, doing his will, and thus have a relationship and fellowship with him.  Apart from our obedience, we have nothing.

You are reading more into this than scripture tells us, if one is slave to Christ, this means he is saved, they can never be like those of Mat 7:21-22 because Jesus shall say to them in that day, ............, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not I use to know you...but now I don't.

Broken fellowship, is quite different from being disowned, God does not disown His children.

I'm not saying that once you accept Christ, you commit a sin and lose your salvation, repent and get it again, commit another and lose it, repent and regain it, etc.

Well, how many sins, must one commit to be judged to an
eternaty in Hell??

It only takes one sin.

Your hypothetical just won't fly.

God's patience and grace run deep, and covers and always will cover those who are humble before God.  But if you deliberately continue to be disobedient even after you accepted Christ, and harden your heart, will such sins still be forgiven by God?  

continued..................

[Petro]

It is clear from Heb 6, if one who sins and can lose His salvation he cannot be brought back to repentance, so, your understanding of one who sins and humbles himself before God means he must repent, in order to be forgiven of that sin, if you believe one who sins, does not lose salvation, it is because the Blood of Jesus covers that sin, and will cover all sins, until the day he dies.

So it is a matter of falling out of felllowship, not losing ones salvation.

Now there is another spin to this that bronzesanke brought up at the end, of our conversation, and that is a person can be deceived into believing he is saved, and that deception comes about by the person believes that through keeping Gods Commandments he can be saved.

This position is unbiblical... one cannot be saved by keeping the commandments, because the commandments were never given for that purpose, they were given to men, that they
 might examine themselves to see if they had sinned against God.

In your deliberate disobedience you become an enemy of God.

Because dleiberate means you planned it, and weighed the sin against the consequence, and then excuted it, this is the despite done to the Mercy and Grace of God.  This is not what a saved man of God does, this is evidence of an unsaved person, and it should serve notice to those who see it happening, those who are deceived into believing they are saved, can never see this point.

We are saved  by God's grace, but his grace is no means to go on sinning.  To say that you can continue to deliberately sin and do what you want because God's grace will cover a multitude of sins is not a teaching I see anywhere in the Bible, and is a dangerous doctrine to believe in.

The key word is deliberate; in your hypothetical is what makes this teaching unbiblical.


I know of no Christian that teaches such things, do you??

Again, we are saved by God's grace, and I fully believe it.  If we remain in his love, and we do so by being obedient by faith even though we may stumble here and there, and we continue to be humble before him and do his will, we will always be in fellowship with him, we will always have the Holy Spirit to guide us as we listen for it, and we will always be under his grace (because we will always need it) as long as we are on this earth..

This is true.

But if we turn from our ways and sin, none of the righteous things we've done before will be remembered.  

You keep quoting this OT scripture, as though it is relevant.

The fact is if anyone who claims to be in Christ does not commit such  things by his doing the very thing spoken of, he proves he never was  saved.  He deceived himself.  And all
others who are not perceptive.

Why  our turning away we are rejecting God and have left his fellowship, we're not being obedient to his word, and we're not loving him.  If it were not so, then the road would be broad and the gate wide that leads to life, and narrow would be the road and the gate small that leads to destruction.  

I disagree with your undestanding of this, it is clear to me you have work to do, on what the scriptures really teach concerning this.

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on,

I have accepted ALL of God's Word as the truth, perhaps you need to accept ALL of God's Word, not in pieces you feel safe in.

God bless

Said the kettle to the pot.

How long have you been studying scripture, anyhow??

Blessings,
Petro

[Allinall]

Heya Newborn!  I love questions man!  Unless they're from my 6 year old and consist mainly of "Why?"  

But my question to this is, why would we need to conform ourselves to the image of His Son?  We're already saved, so why would you have to do anything beyond accepting him?  

We do no such conformation brother!  The work is God's:

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13

...and...

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:30-31

We do not need to conform ourselves to God's image.  That is God's work.  Yet God did not make us mere robots that He moves about.  Rather, He gave us a will, and sovereignly allows us to make choices - whether to obey Him or to disobey Him.  By obeying, we allow the Spirit of God, through the Word of God, to conform us into the image of the Son of God.  If not...we are not conformed, we fight the working of sanctification in our daily lives, and we effectively "bushel our candle."  Why must we do beyond accepting Him?  Because He has commanded us to do so, and to be "doers of the word."  It is through our obedience that God changes us.

If accepting his free gift of salvation was good enough, why would we need to obey, or to take up our cross daily, or to do his will?  

Why obey?  Because we love Him:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,  even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:15-17

Why take up our cross?  Because we must die to ourselves in order for Him to live through us:

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 9:23

...and...

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.  But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


Galatians 2:15-21

Not only for Him to live through us, but for us to be effectively conformed to that image.  

...CONTINUED

[Allinall]

...CONTINUED...

If what you say is true, not being obedient or doing his will isn't going to make any difference because we're sealed, locked in, always and forever, for eternity.  

Positionally, no difference whatsoever.  That, my friend, is scriptural.  Not only is it stated thusly in specific verses, but it is taught thusly throughout the bible.  The very book we use to support the loss of salvation is the very book by which we can be CERTAIN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT[/b] that what we have been given in Christ, cannot, will not be lost.  The book of which I speak is Hebrews.  The problem we face my friend and brother, is that we approach that book as New Testament Gentiles rather than Old Testament Jews!  Don't worry.  Not sayin' you gotta be circumsised and grow funny bangs to be saved!    I'm saying that the passages found therein were written to Jews, with a Jewish understanding, and deal not with salvation, but with victorious Christian living, as related in the Old Testament illustrations.  I challenge you to read the book of Hebrews with a mind opened to this concept.  

Possessionally, (is that a word?) it makes the world of difference.  Please reread my posts here to Bronzesnake for what I'm getting at.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  

[Allinall]

...STILL GOING...

Done?  Good!  Now you see my point!  Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation.  We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it.  We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us.  In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him.  And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet.  We possess only the blessed blood that saved us.  We are the servant that took the talent and buried it.  We've gained nothing.  But, "...he himself will be saved."  

If not having fellowship with Christ is not important, why then did God sacrifice his Son for us?  Was it to have a bunch of saved people who don't love him with him in heaven?

And this is the point man!  We lose fellowship - not relationship.  Why then did God sacrifice His Son for us?  That question reminds me alot of "...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?" Why, oh why would we neglect so great a salvation?  Not lose it, not give it up.  Rather neglect it by counting that fellowship as meaningless.

This may seem like a sarcastic question, but rather it's a very serious question.  I ask it because the difference I see in our views, is I believe the scriptures teach that salvation is in making Jesus our Lord and Saviour.  I go back to an ancient question many people have, which is why did God create man in the first place?  Was it not for someone to fellowship with, that would walk in his ways and love him of their own free will?  God's purpose of creation was not to reconcile us to him, but rather for fellowship.  

I would contend brother that God made everything, us included, for His glory:

everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43:7

...and...

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11

Our salvation, our conformation, our very lives are for His glory.  

Now the once saved always saved belief ignores the first part (Lord) and choses to focus only on the second part (Saviour).  So my question is, if not making him the Lord of our life (meaning having to obey what he commands) is not important or have any consequences, if Jesus died for ALL sins whether they're on purpose or not, it goes back to my original question of 'will heaven then be filled with saved people who don't love God?'

Nope!  It will be filled with people who do.  Here's a question you haven't considered for your position.  How do we know we love God?  And everytime we fail to obey, do we then fall away and lose our salvation because we don't love Him?  Where's the line?  I do know that you've addressed this, I'm just asking where the line of stubbling becomes a falling in your eyes.  

Quote:
My question, after you've had a chance to think about this part, is...what does it mean, "perfected for all time those who are being sanctified"?
 

What Jesus did on the cross is the ONLY thing that can reconcile believers to the Father, and ALWAYS will be the only thing.

Not talking reconciling brother.  That's a done deal.  I'm talking about being perfected and sanctified.  What does that mean?

[Allinall]

Bronzesnake,

I hope you're feeling better today man.  Been prayin'.  

I haven't interpreted it at all. I simply read it for what it says.

Jesus makes a clear distinction that each of these seven churches are "His", (Christians) and that is important to understand because it distinguishes exactly who He is directing His Revelations to.

Ah, but you have.  It doesn't say that you've lost your eternal salvation.  It says that his candlestick may be removed from his place.  What place?  Heaven?  Earth?  It doesn't say my friend.  You've interpreted this prophetic passage to mean loss of eternal salvation.  And again, if they are His, how can they be lost?  If you follow that thinking with that passage, it inevitably ends up there guy.  That's my only point there.  You and I have both interpreted that passage.  Just differently.  

Take it easy man, and get your rest bro.

[Everyday Newborn]

At least you are honest, and recognize this doctrine to be your view point. It is when you begin to teach it as though it was inspired that causes divisions.

It is my interpretation of the scriptures, thus is it my viewpoint yes.

Thats where you are wrong, what I have shared with you is not my viewpoint, it is what Gods Word teaches, pure and simple.

No, it is your interpretation of what God's Word teaches, thus it is your view point, pure and simple.  Unless you've had some divine intervention telling you this is what it means, you'll need to accept it's your own interpretation.

Oh, some  may schmooze you, and make you feel good by agreeing with you about the lose your salvation teaching, but in reality, love is reflected in the giving of Gods word out in truth and righteousness, and keeping the weak brethern from stumbling, it is good to keep Gods commandments, but, your viewpoint makes it clear, that by not keeping it, one can lose the gift.

And that is unscriptural.

I'm not asking anybody to schmooze me or make me feel good, they certianly don't have to agree with me.  But as I've stated before, I just didn't care for the attitude in your responses.  

The scriptures answer this very question, perhaps if you should read Rom 5:15, through Rom 8:39, this will help you.

I have, and that's why I was asking the questions as an opposite of what I believe.

One can read about this very thing, concerning a fellow Christian in the early church at 1 Cor 5:1-5.

God is a jealouse God, especially for His namesake, Paul said  to the jews at;

Rom 2
24  For the name of God  is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25  For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27  And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


God will allow satan to kill the flesh of those who insist on living in sin, who claim the blood of Jesus, even to kill the body, that the spirit might be saved.  So for this reason it is good to obey, it is the duty of Christians to be obedient, by this,one proves they Love the Lord.  Obedience produces more Faith, from Faith unto Faith., the Just shall live by Faith.

What is the reason for exiling him from the church?

But the fearful, and the unbelievingand the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Those who reject Jesus own words, are counted among those who are unbeliving, there are christians (they claim to be anyhow,) and yet reject Jesus own words concerning eternal life of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

Those who reject that eternal life is not the present state while claiming Jesus as savior, are really unbelievers, they are deceived.  Believers in Jesus, know and believe that they have eternal life, in Him, and it is based on what He did, at Calvary, not on their own performance.

Those who reject Jesus' own words are counted as unbelievers, yes agreed.

This is the reason why I down play the need to keep the commandments, I say let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

I see why you would say this, being that you believe that the ONLY thing we have to do is accept what he did on Calvary, nothing more.

When God gives those whom, He choses to the Son, they become the beloved, and these, are loved by Him, and we are assured, there is nothing that can separate us from His love,  nothing neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:35_39, you really should read Rom 8.

I have read it, but you'll notice that the word 'if' is used again and again.  Thing is, you never consider what the other side of the 'if' is.

You are reading more into this than scripture tells us, if one is slave to Christ, this means he is saved, they can never be like those of Mat 7:21-22 because Jesus shall say to them in that day, ............, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not I use to know you...but now I don't.

I'm not reading into it at all, I'm seeing what it's saying and accepting it.  Difference is, you don't think that once we become slaves to Christ we can't decide to turn and become slaves to sin again.

Well, how many sins, must one commit to be judged to an
eternaty in Hell??

It only takes one sin.

Your hypothetical just won't fly.

Agreed, it only takes one.  But God judges the heart.

Continued.....

[Everyday Newborn]

It is clear from Heb 6, if one who sins and can lose His salvation he cannot be brought back to repentance, so, your understanding of one who sins and humbles himself before God means he must repent, in order to be forgiven of that sin, if you believe one who sins, does not lose salvation, it is because the Blood of Jesus covers that sin, and will cover all sins, until the day he dies.
So it is a matter of falling out of felllowship, not losing ones salvation.

You teach someone that doctrine and they'll think they can use God's grace as a means to do what they want, because the only consequence of sinning means a falling out of fellowship and not losing their salvation.  With that kind of thinking, why would they receive Christ with fear and trembling?

Now there is another spin to this that bronzesanke brought up at the end, of our conversation, and that is a person can be deceived into believing he is saved, and that deception comes about by the person believes that through keeping Gods Commandments he can be saved.

This position is unbiblical... one cannot be saved by keeping the commandments, because the commandments were never given for that purpose, they were given to men, that they
 might examine themselves to see if they had sinned against God.

You said yourself that those who reject the teachings of Jesus are as unbelievers, so if you're not obeying what God commanded then you are an unbeliever.

Because dleiberate means you planned it, and weighed the sin against the consequence, and then excuted it, this is the despite done to the Mercy and Grace of God.  This is not what a saved man of God does, this is evidence of an unsaved person, and it should serve notice to those who see it happening, those who are deceived into believing they are saved, can never see this point.

Are you telling me you've never thought about doing something that was against God's will after you accepted Christ, and did it?  If you haven't then you're one increadibly remarkable person.  But if you have, then by your own definition you're not saved, because your aforethought sin marked you as an unbeliever.

The key word is deliberate; in your hypothetical is what makes this teaching unbiblical.

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

You keep quoting this OT scripture, as though it is relevant.

So nothing in the OT is relevant?  So we can toss the Ten Commandments out the window?  So was OT scripture Jesus used to answer Satan not relevant, or anything from the OT for that matter?

I disagree with your undestanding of this, it is clear to me you have work to do, on what the scriptures really teach concerning this.

I know you disagree, because to you just accepting the free gift is all you need to do.  Point being, if it were that simple and nothing more, there's going to be a lot of people going to heaven which is why I stated that scripture because it doesn't support that doctrine.  Peter says that it's hard for the righteous to be saved, yet you make it so easy.  Sorry, but I'll believe what Peter says.

How long have you been studying scripture, anyhow??

Long enough to know the Spirit behind it.

God bless

[Everyday Newborn]

Heya Newborn!  I love questions man!  Unless they're from my 6 year old and consist mainly of "Why?"  

Hi Allinall, my little girl is only 1 so I'm not getting the 'why' questions yet.  Though she does say 'no' pretty good because she hears it a lot.

We do no such conformation brother!  The work is God's:

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13

I think you meant Phl 2:12.  But just before that he states in vs 12.. "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"
But we need to be willing to let God work in us, so we take part in the conforming.

We do not need to conform ourselves to God's image.  That is God's work.  Yet God did not make us mere robots that He moves about.  Rather, He gave us a will, and sovereignly allows us to make choices - whether to obey Him or to disobey Him.  By obeying, we allow the Spirit of God, through the Word of God, to conform us into the image of the Son of God.

Amen!  I totally agree.  And as you stated, it's by us obeying that allows the conforming to happen.

If not...we are not conformed, we fight the working of sanctification in our daily lives, and we effectively "bushel our candle."  Why must we do beyond accepting Him?  Because He has commanded us to do so, and to be "doers of the word."  It is through our obedience that God changes us.

Amen again!

Why obey?  Because we love Him:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,  even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:15-17

Amen, amen!

Why take up our cross?  Because we must die to ourselves in order for Him to live through us:

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 9:23

...and...

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.  But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


Galatians 2:15-21

Not only for Him to live through us, but for us to be effectively conformed to that image.  

...CONTINUED

Amen!

Continued....

[Everyday Newborn]

Positionally, no difference whatsoever.  That, my friend, is scriptural.  Not only is it stated thusly in specific verses, but it is taught thusly throughout the bible.

Where does it say we don't have to be obedient, or do the Father's will?  Please provide those specific verses.

The very book we use to support the loss of salvation is the very book by which we can be CERTAIN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT[/b] that what we have been given in Christ, cannot, will not be lost.  The book of which I speak is Hebrews.  The problem we face my friend and brother, is that we approach that book as New Testament Gentiles rather than Old Testament Jews!  Don't worry.  Not sayin' you gotta be circumsised and grow funny bangs to be saved!    I'm saying that the passages found therein were written to Jews, with a Jewish understanding, and deal not with salvation, but with victorious Christian living, as related in the Old Testament illustrations.  I challenge you to read the book of Hebrews with a mind opened to this concept.  

I will read it again  

Possessionally,
(is that a word?) it makes the world of difference.  Please reread my posts here to Bronzesnake for what I'm getting at.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  

I have ran out of time, but I will try to answer the rest at a later time.

God bless.

[AJ]

Allinall said

...STILL GOING...

Done?  Good!  Now you see my point!  Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation.  We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it.  We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us.  In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him.  And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet.  We possess only the blessed blood that saved us.  We are the servant that took the talent and buried it.  We've gained nothing.  But, "...he himself will be saved."  


We are the servant that took the talent and buried it.  We've gained nothing.  But, "...he himself will be saved."  

Back to the bible please


Mat 25:25  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28  Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Saved is he??

I think it may be time to rethink some of this

God bless

[Everyday Newborn]

AJ

Amen. Thank you for pointing that out.