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Author Topic: Eternal Security Of The Believer  (Read 12128 times)
Petro
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« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2004, 08:01:25 PM »

Amen Little John  ................Amen..


Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2004, 12:26:04 PM »

Quote
You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.
I have which is why I asked the questions I did, because it's not okay to sin.

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You said, you were not talking about sinning and losing your salvation!............which is it??

Are you, or are you not speaking of,  a  Christian being able to lose slavation by sinning??

You are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me, you are not very honest, about what you are saying one moment and then cliaming what falling out of fellowship means,  the next................which is it??

What are you really talking about??   You sound confused..........................?
I was making a point by using what Allinall said, there was no contradiction.  
He was saying the only consequence of sin is falling out of fellowship with God, not losing salvation.  I asked how a person could not have fellowship with God yet still be saved?  It is clear that the scriptures teach that when you are doing God's will and living a life that is pleasing to him, a result of that is you have fellowship, and Jesus' blood covers you.  They are all as one, not seperate. Take for example 1 Jhn 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Again it says "if" we walk.......So on the flip side of that I continue to keep all three, should you choose not to walk in the light, then you won't have fellowship, and the blood of Jesus will not cover you, but you say it still would.
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The unsaved will definitely perish if they do not come to Christ by faith in Gods Word, which He has spoken, JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND is that Prophet of Deut 18:15-19.

Those who are saved, ..........I give unto them eternal life; and they shall will never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
 (Jhn 10:28-30)

Can you say that you,  believe Jesus own Words at John 10:28-30??

Clearly in furthering the doctrine you embrace, you don't..believe Him.

If you say you do, How so?
I do believe him, cause in vs. 27 he is speaking about those that follow him.

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You do not understand this verse this is why you ask such a question...if you underdstood the verser, you woul;dn't ask it...  because of sin there can be no fellowship, however God does not disown his adopted children, because they have sinned.  

For those that do not they have eternal life in Christ Jesus, the practice of disobedience as a matter of course, could very well be evidence they are unbelievers, and never really were saved, it is called self deception,  It is not enough, to believe I know God, the question one should ask Himself, does Jesus Know me.

2 Tim 2
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
I can accept a statement to this degree:
If a person comes to know Christ but still continues to hold on to sin knowing what Christ says about sin, then yes I'd question whether that person really was saved to begin with because of their knowledge of it.  In this situation, I'd agree with your statement.  However, there is other possible situations such as a person not knowing what Christ says about something, though they believe in God and accept him.  Then something happens and then that person decides not to follow Jesus, to say that the person never believed, was not sincere in their desire to follow Christ, was never saved (because they didn't fully understand) I don't agree with.

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Praise God, I trust in Jesus own blood who covers all of my sins, and not in my own abilities to keep the commandments perfectly, which I never could before I was saved, not to mention I had no interest in them to begin with. The word of God assures me, I was  made perfect in Jesus even  while dead in sin and tresspass, even the Faith I possess was given to me, by Gods Grace.

I suppose you would claim, you conjured up your saving faith??
If by saving faith you mean having the faith to believe in him and accept him, yes that was my faith because it was my choice to choose him or not.  Did he give you the faith to believe in him?  If so then there is no free will.

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Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

I am saying the scriptures make it plain to me, that:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........
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No I wouldn't actually.  The difference between you and I is the free will involved.

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Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.
I never said I believed you hated me, again that is another incorrect assumption on your part.  Honestly Petro, this has been a pattern for you to do and it really needs to stop.

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I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.
Said the kettle to the pot.

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I never said that, did I??

The OT, has been abolished, I guess I assumed you knew this, that will teach me, to assume things, when pointing out things like this..

The reason why the OT has been abolished, is because Jesus the Testator of the New Testament has died, it is a fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

One can learn certain principles which are still relevant from the OT, buit we are not under the OT, for instance at the passage you quote, the sons shall not perish for the sins of their fathers but will perish for their own sins.
Ezekiel 33 that I quoted was a principle which is still relevent from the OT, which you stated one can still learn.
 
Quote
The 10 Commandments still serve their same purpose.

These Commandments, were never given, that by keeping them perfectly any flesh could ever be justified before God, they were simply given to be used to determine whether anyone had sinned against God, this is the only reason for the Law of Commandments, they are as a schoolmaster to bring man to Christ by FAITH, and when FAITH comes, that man (who comes to FAITH) is no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)

cont'd..................
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Everyday Newborn
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« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2004, 01:12:20 PM »

Quote
The law cannot kill the soul, because if a child of God sins, he is no longer judged by that Law, children of God are not under the Law of Commandments, but under the Law of Grace.

You simply need to study this, to understand it.
Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness.  So if you're not saying no, are you under Grace?  Study and understand that my friend. Wink

Quote
Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.
Faith initially yes.  But I'm talking about throughout your life.  What happened to the servant who buried his talent?

Quote
On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.
First of all IF one could keep the law perfectly yes it would make God's grace unnecessary.  However being that the case is one could NEVER keep the law perfectly, there will always be a need for God's grace.  But that doesn't mean we should be lazy in trying to keep the law, because the law not only shows us that we are sinners, but what kind of life God want's us to live.  I do not try to keep the law so that I may not need God's grace or boast, I try to keep the law (Jesus' commands) so that I may live the life that is pleasing to him.  As Paul says, we must aim for perfection.

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The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.
You misunderstand what I have said.  

Quote
How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??
Let me give you an illustration, and it will demonstrate the power of both sin and God's grace.
Say there were 100 commands.  You keep 99 of them, but the one you decide you're going to continue in even though you know what Jesus said in the command.  
Take the same 100 commands.  You keep only 1, the other 99 you continue to do.  But you do so because you are weak in your flesh, you know they are wrong and you try as best as you can to not do these things and ask God to deliver you from them.
Which of these persons would be saved?  I tell you the latter, because their heart was willing though his flesh was weak.

Quote

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,?Huh?
I wish everyone could be saved, unfortunately that's not going to happen.

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I  guess you must think you are god them............huh??
Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff, you obviously conjured up these lies in your own mind and there is nothing I could do or say to change your mind.  But I'll say it anyhow, God is God, I am not.

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Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.
I believe only what God says, and I take the bible as whole not in sections.

Quote
Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God.  Come on be honest..............
Again, this is another of your false assumptions of which continue to show me your true colors.

Quote
You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't,  however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters.  Seeing He is God..
I believe both of them, in all their scriptures.

Quote
Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.
Amen to having God's grace to cover us when we stumble, but we need to make the effort and have the willingness to keep God's commands, he does the rest.

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But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God.  It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.
A big AMEN to that!  Smiley

Quote
Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.
It is more and more each day.


God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Little John
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« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2004, 03:40:27 PM »

Quote
Let me give you an illustration, and it will demonstrate the power of both sin and God's grace.
Say there were 100 commands.  You keep 99 of them, but the one you decide you're going to continue in even though you know what Jesus said in the command.  
Take the same 100 commands.  You keep only 1, the other 99 you continue to do.  But you do so because you are weak in your flesh, you know they are wrong and you try as best as you can to not do these things and ask God to deliver you from them.
Which of these persons would be saved?  I tell you the latter, because their heart was willing though his flesh was weak.


The answer to the question is, none of us know!
Only GOD knows the heart. We can't argue issues of the heart. We only know what we see! We look for Fruit of the Spirit and other things the Word says is consistant with christian behavior, but only GOD truly knows.

The only persons salvation we can be sure of is our own.

This discussion does come down to issues of the heart." If we confess with our mouth and believe in our Heart then...". But which one can truly say? All we know is what it told to us and what we see. Also remember bevavior is learned and can be imitated. So what do we really know?

We can't determination a persons salvation soley on what we see, bacause thier salvation is determined by what GOD sees.
And what GOD sees is us covered in the blood of the Lamb!

All that are CHRIST'S are in his hand, of which he has lost NONE!

God Bless!

 
 

 
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2004, 04:15:54 PM »

Quote
The answer to the question is, none of us know!
Only GOD knows the heart. We can't argue issues of the heart. We only know what we see! We look for Fruit of the Spirit and other things the Word says is consistant with christian behavior, but only GOD truly knows.

The only persons salvation we can be sure of is our own.

This discussion does come down to issues of the heart." If we confess with our mouth and believe in our Heart then...". But which one can truly say? All we know is what it told to us and what we see. Also remember bevavior is learned and can be imitated. So what do we really know?

We can't determination a persons salvation soley on what we see, bacause thier salvation is determined by what GOD sees.
And what GOD sees is us covered in the blood of the Lamb!
AMEN!!!!
Which is exactly the point I have been making in all of my posts, that it comes down to the attitude of the heart.  But the problem I have with the once saved always saved is people say that the attitude of the heart can't change, which I don't agree with.  The ONLY way a person could lose their salvation is if they change the attitude of their heart and become hardened towards God.  I say that about people who know what they're doing.  And to say one who turns away was never saved, I ask how did they know that person's heart?  How do they know that they never were sincere or truly wanted to devote their lives to God.  Unforseen things happen that could change a person's mind.  As well as on the flip side, how do we know someone who's following God truly is sincere, so it does work both ways.  And I agree the only person we could know for sure is ourselves.

Quote
All that are CHRIST'S are in his hand, of which he has lost NONE!
Yes, and those that follow him shall have eternal life. Amen........

God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Reba
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« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2004, 05:39:34 PM »

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Which is exactly the point I have been making in all of my posts, that it comes down to the attitude of the heart.  But the problem I have with the once saved always saved is people say that the attitude of the heart can't change, which I don't agree with.
i have not heard osas folks say ones heart does not change.
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 The ONLY way a person could lose their salvation is if they change the attitude of their heart and become hardened towards God.
John 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
Is there an exception in the above verse?
Quote
I say that about people who know what they're doing.  And to say one who turns away was never saved, I ask how did they know that person's heart?
It is not the heart of man but the word of God. 'like depart from Me I never knew you'
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How do they know that they never were sincere or truly wanted to devote their lives to God.
back to the above verse
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Unforseen things happen that could change a person's mind.
Salvation is not a mind set salvation is... Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV
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As well as on the flip side, how do we know someone who's following God truly is sincere, so it does work both ways.  And I agree the only person we could know for sure is ourselves.
Only He knows. We can guess or assume, surmize etc but we do not KNOW. We do not read the Lambs book of life. Man can not garentee his own salvation.
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Little John
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« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2004, 07:51:30 PM »

I agree with Reba, when the scripture says that noone can pluck us out of the LORD'S hand, then to "lose your salvation" implies you were never in is hand. He said,"I have lost none".

That's how we will know who was sincere, in the end. For us looking from the natural to the eternal, it would appear that someone could lose their salvation. But I believe that the scripture is clear that CHRIST will lose none.

I don't take credit for salvation. Neither can I by works be justified. Because when I do obey GOD, it's not me, it's him(PHIL.2:13).
That verse says, the salvation of GOD, supercedes my will and obedience. Because even when I please GOD, it is Him who make me Want to please him and actually do according to His pleasure!

My Salvation is truly a gift!

AND IF GOD:
-is able to keep me
-is able to finish want he started in me
(and you know He is !)

Then how can I prevent HIM?
 
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Petro
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« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2004, 08:14:42 PM »

everyday newborn,

Quote
If by saving faith you mean having the faith to believe in him and accept him, yes that was my faith because it was my choice to choose him or not. Did he give you the faith to believe in him? If so then there is no free will

So you do admit, you conjured up saving faith.

This my friend is the error....man always confesses with his mouth what he believes in his heart.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

As someone has said, God who knows the heart, will sort this out at a future date, since you believed, it is clear why, you have this desire to continue doing (keeping commandments or doing good works), lest you lose what you obatined by your doing.

The flesh profiteth nothing, it is the spirit that giveth life.

..........it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Quote
petro said;
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........
everyday answered;

Quote
everyday replied;
No I wouldn't actually. The difference between you and I is the free will involved.

Well this then is the difference between day and night, unfortunately dead men do not possess free will, maybe you really were not that dead spiritually ..............huh??

Somehow you equate physical life with spiritual life, this is false.....perhaps if you considered what scripture says, you might come to a biblical understanding of this matter.

And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I assume you know these verses I have given you.

Concenring John 10:27-30, you said;

Quote
I do believe him, cause in vs. 27 he is speaking about those that follow him.

It sounds to me as thou you believe others above Jesus, own words, believing Him, only when it is convenient.







Blessings,
Petro
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