Print Page - Eternal Security Of The Believer

Eternal Security Of The Believer

Preaching The Grace Of God – From The King James Bible – Dispensationally Delivered

Berean Bible Church – Edgewater, Florida – Doug Dodd s.b.g. - Pastor

Eternal life has always been an issue of faith not of works. Man can be saved eternally based upon his faith in what God tells him to believe. The content of faith can change from one dispensation to the next but the mechanics stay the same. For example:

Noah

1. Noah needed to be saved from God's wrath,

2. God told Noah what he had to do to escape that wrath,

3. Noah's faith in what God said caused him to build the ark.

Today

1. Man needs to be saved from God's coming wrath.

2. God tells us what we must do to escape that wrath.

3. Our faith in what God says causes us to believe the gospel of grace.

The question arises, "Is once saved always saved" a true statement?

The reason this question gets asked is because of a failure to understand the cross work of Christ.

VERSE: 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

VIEWPOINT: When Christ died two thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day".

VICTORY: We no longer have to carry around the guilt of our sins. He has set us free from the bondage and domination of sin so that we could do something we could never do before -- serve Him!

VERSE: Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

VIEWPOINT: Eternal life is a promise from God, who, by the way, cannot lie!! Eternal life = eternal life, life that is eternal, just as eternal death = death that lasts forever. Notice that God promised eternal life "before the world began"! Before He made a when or a where He had you and me in mind all the time.

VICTORY: God keeps his promise.

VERSE: Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

VIEWPOINT: God hath (past tense!) made us ACCEPTED in the beloved (Christ). All we have, we have because of Calvary. God made us accepted. We were not acceptable on our own but in Christ we have been made accepted.

VICTORY: When God looks at us he sees his Son!

VERSES: Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved

US

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIEWPOINT: We are NOT saved by our good works i.e. trying to stop sin in our lives. We have been saved by grace (the provision of God) through faith (believing what God says).

VICTORY: If we are unable to save ourselves are we foolish enough to think we could keep ourselves? God has provide a better way, he has provided himself for us.

VERSES: 2 Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13...: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

VICTORY: The seal of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

VERSES: Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

VIEWPOINT: From God's viewpoint we are seated already in the heavens. Our life is hid with Christ in God and when Christ comes back we will go to be with him.

VICTORY: Seated with Christ in glory above, another recipient of his wonderful love.

VERSES: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

VIEWPOINT: We have been called according to his purpose i.e. He is forming the church the body of Christ. The gospel call goes out. Those who respond are "the called, justified and glorified (present perfect tense) eternal saints of God.

VICTORY: If God be for us, and he is, who can be against us? Answer: Not nobody, not no how!

SUMMARY: Is once saved always saved true? Yes! Why, because we are such good, wonderful, courageous people? No, but because of the total provision of God for us through Christ.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!! To the above study. Ambassador4Christ

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on February 26, 2004, 06:02:40 PM

Judging by the name of the thread, I would agree. There is eternal security for those who believe by faith in Jesus, what he did for us on the cross, and continue to do so throughout the rest of his life here on earth.

But what about someone who accepts this and is a believer, but then for some reason or another decides to reject one or more of his teachings, or altogther. Is that person still 'saved'?

everyday newborn,

Welcome to the forum,

Ok, fair enough....

When you say; "is a believer" I assume your are speaking of a person who is truly Born from Above of incorruptible seed, the Word of God, type headed for heaven.

Suppose he decides to sin willingly, I don't mean on the spur of the moment, but actually plans his sin, and then does it, what about that person??

Does he then become unsaved??

There is no evidence for such a teaching in scripture, the bible teaches, that whosoever is saved, is saved by the blood of Jesus, which covers ALL sins, past, present and future.../

Although you will find people that claim they believe that people can lose their salvations, when one asks them, what must they do to be re-saved, they claim all they have to do is repent, but the Word of God makes it clear, that If a believer could sin and lose his salvation, he could never be brought back to repentance again, becuase, their is no more blood shed by the Savior for that sin which caused him, to lose the free gift of salvation.

His blood either paiud for ALL of the sinners sins, or it didn't.

You see, Jesus died only one time and shed ALL of his blood once and for all, for those whom He saves; so if one is saved, on the basis of the blood shed on Calvaries cross for all his sins., then any sin which could cause the saved to become unsaved, that means that sin, was not covered by the blood.

So if it were possible for that person to lose the free gift of salvation, which was attained for him by Jesus at the cross, by sinning a sin, which can take away that free gift, then no matter how much, or how long, or how many times this individual tried to repent, it would be impossible for God to grant him rpenetance, since there is no more blood for the remission of that sin, which he sinned which caused him to lose salvation.

Where would he fine the blood, acceptable to God for remission of that sin??

So, though this is a hypothetical question, it is not possible, since all sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, past present, and future; He died once and for all, to save them whom God has given to Him.

Blessings,
Petro

Quote from: Petro on February 27, 2004, 01:53:22 AM

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on February 26, 2004, 06:02:40 PM

Amen Petro,

All the saved are eternally secure in Christ (Col. 3:1-4, Phil. 1:6, Rom. 8:1, Rom. 8:29-34, Rom. 8:38-39, Eph. 1:13-14).

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<:)))><

AW, Petro, and Crusader, first of all thank you for responding, I appreciate your thoughts and I look forward to discussing this in further detail.

Again I will say that I agree with Eternal Security, but to a point. We can all agree that if we ask Jesus to become our Lord AND Savior; if we believe by faith that he died for our sins and rose from the dead in conquer of death, and we become new creatures in Christ and now live a new life according to his good and perfect will, then there will be nothing that can pluck us from his hand.

An interesting thing about the Lord and Savior, is that what I hear a lot talked about today is the Savior part. I hear about his dying on the cross, his blood shed to cover our sins, thus reconciling us unto the Father and having redemption in Christ Jesus. Every bit I believe with my whole heart. However, beyond believing in him and accepting what he did on the cross, there is also now a responsibility we have as 'believers', which is to love him and love others (which could only include obedience). When we chose God of our free will, it is no longer our will but his will we chose to set as the authority in our lives.

If we therefore, chose to continue in this love and obedience, and continue to have fellowship with God and walk in his ways, we will never thirst, and we will have all that God has to give us because we never leave that fellowship. That's not to say we still won't slip here and there, or do something we didn't know was wrong as we grow in knowledge. But if the attitude of our hearts remains such that Jesus is the supreme authority in our life, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, what do we have to fear?

Where we differ in thought is you say you can't walk away and lose what you've gained. I've heard it said that even if you do chose to walk away, you're still saved but just won't have as many rewards in heaven. In other words, it's okay to sin and reject Jesus' teachings, and do what you want you just won't be rewarded as much. Now that is an extreme view, but I've heard that arguement. To be honest, that disturbs me, cause that is taking everything that Jesus is, taught, stood for, and trampling it underfoot. What I'm pointing out here is the attitude of the heart. Remember before I said if you slip here and there because we are imperfect but your attitude remains good and pure, then you will not lose your salvation. But what I am also saying is on the flip side of that, if someone accepts Jesus, walks in his ways and loves God but then because we are human and sin creeps in and we begin to believe a lie, the attitude of our heart changes and we reject a teaching(s) of Jesus, then we break our fellowship with him. And if we justify a sin or sins, and continue to do so out of our own selfishness knowing what Jesus says about it, you are not a child of God. Jesus is no longer the full authority of your life, and you are purposely going against his will. Then you have forsaken your true love, and the bond is broken. Not by God's doing, but by our own.

Now Petro, the scripture you were referring to about it being impossible to be brought back to repentance. That is in Hebrews 6, and let me know if you disagree. Again, I truly value your thoughts.

Here we have a person who is considered a believer, judging by the description. Then they fall away, so I look at what happened. Again like in my previous reply (part 1 if you will <laugh>), what I see here is there was a change in their attitude, and for whatever reason they have chosen to reject God in some manner. What that manner is it does not say in detail, but falling away I see as a rejection to the knowledge and experience they had in Christ. In doing so, they are saying that Jesus is not good enough, and to their loss they no longer have the blood of Christ to cover them. They had to harden their heart to the truth they once knew, thus it would seem impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. I say 'it would seem' because I do not take that literally. I refuse to believe God wouldn't ever forgive someone, or accept someone's repentance. After all, that is what God is, forgivness, so to take that scripture literally would be God rejecting himself. Therefore it being impossible to be brought back to repentance is not from God's view, but the view of the sinner to change their ways.

Another example of the point I'm trying to make is a little further down in Hebrews 10:26-31. Again we see someone who is 'deliberatly' sinning, again there's a change in their attitude towards God that must take place in order for that to happen. And if they cast aside the blood of Jesus, the holy santification that once saved him, what other sacrifice is there that can bring him back into fellowship with God? God said that no one comes to him except through Jesus. So if a believer decides to sin deliberatly they nullify the blood that covers him, and there is nothing left that can save him. So what awaits such a person? A fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Notice how now the person has become an 'enemy' of God.

Please let me know what you think about this. Please give it some thought and prayer. I look forward to hearing from you.

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on February 27, 2004, 01:39:45 PM

So where is the standard set? Perfection? Impossible, nobody can obey the teachings of Jesus perfectly. Jesus elavated the standard Himself to include thoughts, not just actions. If you hate your brother your a murderer in your heart. If you look upon a woman wrong your an adulterer in your heart.

Perfection is out of the question. It seems you are saying that any known sin, meaning a sin you are aware is a sin but chose to commit it anyway, would cause the loss of ones Salvation. That means a lie would cause the loss of Salvation, taking the Lord's name in vain would cancel salvation according to this view. I've never met a person who doesn't sin at least once a day, whether in the flesh or in the mind.

Where is the standard for your beliefs to be set? How many known sins does it take to lose Salvation? 1? 5? 100?

This standard that Jesus taught was more strict than the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was based on actions, the teachings of Jesus where based on thoughts. Sin begins with thoughts before the flesh carries out the action. Sin begins in the mind, the mind controls the flesh. Some sins are never acted out in the flesh but are acted out in the heart and mind only, but are never the less, Sins.

Where do you draw the line? Its a slippery slope I see in your interpretation. If I've understood this wrong please clarify what you mean. At what point do you believe Salvation is lost?

If you are right I might as well give up right here and now, cause I'll never make the grade. I fall so far short I wouldn't stand a chance. He might as well just pitch me into the Lake of Fire right now and get it over with. If I were to believe as you, I never would have read more than 10 pages of the Bible. By the time I got to the tenth page starting anywhere in the book I'd have given up. I'd be thinking, "theres no way I can do all these things right, I've lived in this evil world to long to be able to do everything perfectly now. I'm a sinner, always have been, always will be." Until Jesus transforms me, perfects me, Raptures me, Glorifies me, I'm stuck with this weak sinful body, which still makes mistakes. Your way of thinking is scary to me. I'd never be able to sleep or to have any assurance at all of my Salvation. One slip up and its off to the Lake of Fire you go? Yikes! Grace would be severely diminished, would it not?

Paul2

Paul 2-

I agree that we sin even after we accept Christ, I included that in what I said. In fact, I repeated it. But I will say it again, we will still slip up, we'll stumble in our sin even after we've received the truth. While we are still in this tent, we will always have sin in our life. Our goal should be to aim for perfection (2 Cor 13:11), but realistically knowing we'll never obtain it.

Why would you be scared from my view? If your attitude and your love are always fixed on Jesus being the supreme authority in your life (keeping in mind that we are not perfect as I said above), what do you have to fear? However, as in the Hebrew scriptures I stated, it's when we deliberatly continue to sin is when we get into trouble. In doing so, Jesus is no longer is the authority in your life, you've chosen to stray from his teachings and go your own way. He is patient, and you're asking me at what point does his patience run out as it has so many times in the Bible. I will tell you, I don't know.

So lets recap very quickly. We still sin after we accept Christ, that's a fact. God knows our hearts and sees that we're not perfect, but that our heart is set on doing the right thing. If we continue to deliberatly sin, again God knows our heart and if it's not right, we have the expectation of judgement and known as an enemy of God.

When you become a Christian it's no easy ride. Let me give this to you to consider:
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (1 Pet 4:18)
Why would it be hard for the righteous to be saved if 'everything' is so easily under the blood of Christ. Stop here for a moment and think about that. If you dileberatly sin, you are missing the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross. You are trampling underfoot what is holy. Please re-read the scriptures in Hebrews and the others I listed here and let me know what you think.

I thank you for asking me to clarify, and I hope I have. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Eternal Life

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

The book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To properly understand the book of Hebrews this must be kept in mind. One of the main keywords in Hebrews is “better” which is used in reference to the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrew is dealing with converts under the New Covenant who are going back to the things of the old covenant for whatever reason. There are about five different explanations for the five warning passages in Hebrews such as the verses above. Some teach that this is speaking about a false professor, one who came close to being saved even partaking of spiritual things. I reject this explanation because the writer uses the strongest possible words to describe one who is truly a Christian. Also in chapter 10 we read:

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Notice that the person mentioned here cannot be a false professor because verse 29 says he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant or in other words he was set apart by the blood of Jesus. This cannot happen to anyone but a child of God. The unsaved are not sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Another very popular explanation for these passages is that the person was truly a child of God but lost his salvation. I reject this explanation as well. First, there are to many Scriptures that teach that a child of God is granted eternal life at his conversion in Christ. If a person could lose their salvation then we have to redefine many words. For example “forever” would not mean forever, “eternal” would not mean eternal, “everlasting” would not mean everlasting, “never perish” would not mean never perish. Now if we change the meanings for these words in relation to salvation then we ought to be honest with ourselves and apply the same meaning wherever we see the words. So when Scripture teach that those who are thrown into the lake of fire and the smoke of their burning ascendeth forever then we must conclude that this might not br forever seeing the same word is used in relation to salvation. Look at the problems you would have if you are consistent in applying the same definitions to word concerning other issues as you do concerning salvation. Below is a small sample.

Rom. 16:26 “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.”

If salvation is not everlasting then a honest person would have to ask is God everlasting seeing the same word is used to describe both.

2 Cor. 9:9 “(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

If salvation is not forever how can God’s righteousness be forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Rev 4:9 “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever , and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

If salvation is not forever then does the Lord live forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].”

Was it eternal redemption or was is temporary in some cases?

Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin”
Continued

Continued

Did the Lord perfect forever those that are sanctified or in some cases only temporary?

Rev. 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever . Amen”

If salvation is not forever then is the Lord’s glory and dominion for ever and ever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

If salvation is not forever then is the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”

If salvation is not forever then is the everlasting punishment of unbelievers forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

2 Thes. 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Jude 1:13 “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:”

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Forever
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Eternal life, Everlasting
166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Dwelleth
3306 meno {men'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:574,581; v
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
1) to remain, abide
1a) in reference to place
1a1) to sojourn, tarry
1a2) not to depart
1a2a) to continue to be present
1a2b) to be held, kept, continually
1b) in reference to time
1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b1a) of persons, to survive, live
1c) in reference to state or condition
1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Everlasting
126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Perish
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

that never shall be quenched
BDB/Thayers # 762
762 asbestos as'-bes-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj
AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4
1) unquenched, unquenchable
1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
Another explanation which I believe is the correct one is that the writer of Hebrews is using a hypothetical situation to make a point. This is the only explanation that I am aware of the does not violate other Scriptures. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that some are turning back to the Old Covenant ways so he sets out to prove how foolish this is in light of how much better the New Covenant is. His argument would amount to something like this for Hebrews 6:4-6 (the verses at the top of this post).

If it were possible for someone who is truly saved (verses 4-5) to fall away and abandon the salvation he has received by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus (verse 6). It would be impossible for him to be renewed to repentance (salvation) because in order for him to be renewed he would have to crucify the Son of God again, and put him to an open shame which will never happen (verse 6). The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

I believe this explains Hebrews 10 as well.

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.

Saint Pilgrim

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on February 27, 2004, 02:03:50 PM

everyday newborn,

Before I answer your question, allow me to ask you two questions?

What percentage of Work did God play in your Salvation .....??

What percentage of Work did you play in your Salvation??

You agreed with everything that was said, according to your previous response.

On the other hand from your post to me it sounds as though you may not have.

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Paul2 on February 27, 2004, 06:04:56 PM

Perhaps you have lived a clean life. Not all of us have.

Picture someone who was a great sinner before accepting Christ. Consider the person has habits and addictions. Picture someone who has smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 25 years. Someone who knows all about the dangers of smoking but is so addicted they just can't stop. Say they accept Jesus, but continue to smoke even though they know it is harmful and wrong. Could they even become a believer if they smoke? How long do they have before they must quit before their Salvation is lost, for they know what their doing is wrong but haven't been able to quit yet?

Thats just one example. Before repentance their must be belief. Repentance is impossible without the Holy Spirit leading one to repent.

I lived a sinful life. I'm not perfect. I'm not proud of my sins but I still sin and cofess it but I'm still a willful sinner at times. But I'm being really honest about it. I don't know if I've ever been sin free in my life. Theres always something I'm not doing right, for the good we ought to do and don't is sin as I see it.

To me you seem like some super Christian if you can pass the standard you have set. You must never ever lie because that would be willfully sinning. You might be the first person I've evr met that never willfully sins. You can't have it both ways, Grace and Works, its either perfect Grace or perfect works. I'd never make it if works are involved in any way. I'm a sinner. Woe to me wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ will.

Paul2

I have never lived a clean life, nor have I ever claimed to have. I never claimed to be a super Christian, but if that's all that you got out of what I said, then I'm sorry that you misunderstand. But I will try this again.......

We (meaning you and I and everyone on this earth), have sinned, and always will sin as long as we live on this earth (this means even AFTER we accept Christ). We are imperfect, we know that and God knows that. Now, the difference I'm making is between someone who's heart remains with God as the full authority and wants to do his will, and someone who's heart becomes corrupt at some point and God is no longer the full authority and maybe only wants to do partly God's will.

Now using your own example, hopefully I can make this more clear. So we have someone who smokes a lot before they accept Christ. After they accept Christ, they still continue to smoke. So far this fits into both definitions I stated above. Now lets look into it deeper, you said the person gets convicted by the Holy Spirit that he should quit because it's bad for him. Now please read this carefully because this is where it has been missed the last two tries. If the person's heart and attitude remain that Jesus is the authority and the truth, but fails at his attempts to stop smoking, God's grace will cover him. Why, because God knows he wants to do the right thing, but also understands that we are human and imperfect. Judging from that, I would assume this person has tried to quit smoking, or cut back, or make some sort of effort to quit. The person wasn't perfect before he had Christ in his life, and he still isn't perfect after, but was desiring and willing to do God's will. Now, if the person becomes knowledgable that it is wrong, gets convicted, yet decides that he isn't going to listen to God, and justifies it, what place does that person have in the kingdom of God? They are saying that they are only going to obey God where ever they please, therefore Jesus is NOT the full authority in their life. Now this is someone who knows what they are doing, and continues to do so deliberatly. There is a problem that runs deep within this person that has no place in God's kingdom. If a person is willing to give up smoking and tries even though he fails, that willing spirit is what God wants. I believe that person eventually will quit because the person is willing, and God will deliver him. But if the person is not willing, God will not force him. As the scripture you so stated, who will deliver me from these things? Thanks be to Jesus.

Do you see a difference between the two examples? Because if a person says no to God in one area, I'm sure there will be other areas that will follow. Their heart is not pure, their attitude is not right, they are not humble before God.

Again, please let me know if the difference is not clear. I hope you don't think that I believe you lose your salvation at the drop of a hat. I believe the scriptures teach that the lost of salvation can happen. Consider Ezekiel 33:12-20, and tell me what you think that passage is saying.

Thank you again for your response.

everyday newborn,

You skirted my question...

You understand perfectly what I have asked you...

If Your salvation is based on something you did, or claim to have done, then Gods work is not 100 %.

If Gods salvation is not 100% His work in you, then this is why you can never be assured of "eternal security", because that security is in something you must do, to keep it, and you know eventually you won't do.........and lose your gift..

This is why you ask the question, you do...

Ezekiel 33, is written to the Jews who were under the OT Law of Moses, the Covenant has been abolished even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, by Jesus in his flesh. (Eph 2:15)

John 15:5-10, is not a difficult passage, the key is knowing something about the vine and the vinedresser of the vine of which He (Jesus) is speaking of.

I say read the passage very carefully, then visualize what is being said, using mental imagery, this is what helped me understand this passage of scripture, it is not a tough one to understand, of course one must possess the Holy Spirit and pray for understanding.

I will give you some key things which will help you to get started.

The passage Jesus is speaking of is actually Jhn 15:1-6.

The vine being referred to herein is a creeping climbing plant that produces melons, cucumbers, or grapes which I am sure people in that day, He spoke these words were familiar with.

The vine in view herein is probably the Grape vine, because the branchs burn.......

And here, He referred to himself as the vine (the Plant itself), symbolically in the OT, the vine refferred to Israel.

Ok, this is what you need to understand, Jesus referres to
himself as the Vine, and His Father as the Vinedresser (vs 1),
His Father prunes, tends and cares for the wellbeing of the Vine, every branch which does not bare fruit He takes away, the branch that bares fruit He prunes, so that it might bare more fruit (vs 2), you need to examine what this might mean, but consider this in the light of what happens to the branches which produce much fruit, after the fruit is removed, and the branch withers and dies, He (the Vinedresser) takes them away also, as part of the care and maintenance of the vine.

What might this mean??

At verse 3, He makes it clear that everyone who is washed by the word (Titus 3:5-7) is cleansed or clean (speaking of the stain of sin) which is preached, this is where Jesus makes the connection that the branches represent men. Some abide in Him, some do not.

Vs 4, Abide in me, is an exhortation found throughout the NT, for those who are saved to live in Jesus, and to separate themselves from sin, the call is to live, a Holy Life, if any sin "we have an advocate with the Father (the vinedresser), Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jhn 2:1),

It is presumed all believers understand they are saved because of His (Jesus) righteousness not our own (Rom 4:6, 5:18, 6:16) *see what Paul says about the righteoiusness which he trusted in at Phil 3:8-9.

Now notice verse 5, Those who abide in Him, Jesus says; bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Now verse 6, is the verse which causes problems for many, and where the difficult to understand portion of this passage begins, but it really isn't; on the surface it appears to teach that any branch that is cut off and cast away is likened to a man that was abiding in Jesus, and then because he no longer abides in Him, he is cut off; This then is developed by some who teach doctrinal erorrs into a "lose your salvation doctrine".

But, if you read the verse very carefully, this is not what it says at all, in fact in examining it carefully there is nothing said about pruning nor cutting off a branch.

In any real vine, branches wither and die, naturally.......

It simply says;
If a man abide not in me,[/b[ he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Any man that does not abide in Jesus, (does not belong to Him) is not a branch of this vine of which He is. This is what is being said, herein.

So you see, these verses do NOT TEACH, a man which abides in Jesus, loses his salvation, it simply says that those who do not abide in Him, is cast forth as a branch, and withers and dies, and is burned........

One has to stretch what is written to make it says, that any MAN that does not abide in Him, used to be like a branch that did at one time, but doesn't know.

Beware of FALSE, teachers...................I wouldn't put alot of faith in anything asaph....said.

But my question to you is, whose righteousness do you trust in??

And do you believe What the Lord says about His salvation He gives to men.

Isa 51
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

Blessings,
Petro

SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE
by Pastor John L. Cyr, Jr.

The decision concerning our eternal destiny is without question the single most important decision we can ever make! God has given to each and everyone of us that one important thing that can doom us to hell or save us and give us life eternal with Him in heaven. That one thing is, of courses the ability to exercise our free will and make a choice! The following information is directly from the very Word of God, and is written specifically to those of us now living in the "dispensation of grace. " we hope that you will read it carefully, and believe what God has done to save the human race from eternal punishment. You can make this decision right now and settle, once forever, your eternal destiny. This choice is yours.

FIVE IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT SALVATION
1. OUR NATURAL CONDITION
The very first thing any person must admit is that he or she is, by nature, a sinner. It has been said 'we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners!" How true that is! God declares to us in Romans 3:12, They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. "

Again, in Romans 3:19b, "that every mouth be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." God's word proves "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" (Rom. 3:9b). Some of us would like to exclude ourselves from this situation, but God makes it very clear in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". Understanding this, and believing it to be true, is absolutely critical to those who wish to have eternal life.

2. GOD'S ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

The fact is, very few people want to discuss the idea of eternal punishment by God. Some think God would never do such a thing. Some choose to think that somehow, some way, God will simply "overlook" their sin and not hold them accountable! And, most would rather not discuss it at all, but put it out of their mind, like a bad dream. But once again, God is very Clear on this subject and has made it very plain that everyone who Comes to the age of accountability will give an account of himself to God. Romans 2:3 says, "And thinkest thou this, O Man, that judgest them which do sach things (sin) and doest the same that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?" The Apostle Paul states by inspiration in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death (second death); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Read also Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8, and Acts 17:31.

3. CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS (GOSPEL OF GRACE)

The facts we have just seen about our "condition of sin", and the ultimate destiny of sinners, are certainly not good news. Up to this points things look grim and hopeless! But the "good news" (gospel) is that God has made a wonderful provision for everyone that is lost. That provision is not a "system" (religion, philosophy, etc.), but a savior!

God knows our natural condition, and has made a way to save each and every one of us from eternal torment. If we are to be saved from hell and have eternal life, we must come to God in His way, not our way.

Faith is the key...

The only way a person can come to God today is by faith, by simply believing God's word. Believing is the only thing that a sinner can do, without doing anything!

What do I have to Believe?

God's word is the only thing on this planet that can be believed and trusted. Romans 10:17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So, we must believe what God says, and not what men say. Remember, it is His way, not ours. God's way for us today is to simply believe in our hearts what Paul said in I Corinthians 15.3,4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which l also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:". God, knowing our helpless condition, says through Paul in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. "

God paid the ultimate price He could pay! He paid for our sins with the blood of His only son! Romans 3:25a states "Whom (Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation (all sufficient sacrifice) through faith in his blood," If you will believe in your heart that "Christ died for your sins", you can be saved and have eternal life. That is it! The choice ls yours.

"Christ died FOR our sins."
I Corinthians 15:3

4. GOD'S GRACE IS A FREE GIFT

It has been said, that, "the best things in life are free!" Oh, how true this really is. While millions of people are sincere in their attempt to reach God, their good works will never be sufficient to satisfy God. God's grace is a free, undeserved gift! Paul states in Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believed on him that justifieth the ungodly, his is counted for righteousness."

God's justice requires that we be justified (declared righteous). we have already shown, without a doubt, that man alone could never attain this perfect status of perfection. Romans 3:24 says, 'Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". We can actually receive, freely, God's perfect righteousness by simply believing. II Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."!!

The one and only way to be saved, and have eternal life, is to believe "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23b) also read Ephesians 2:8-10.

5. TRUST IS ESSENTIAL

Psalms 118:8 says, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. " Most of us have learned, firsthand, how painful it is to be lied to. In any type of relationship, trust is always the essential element. The four important facts about salvation and eternal life, that we have just previously discussed, can do us no good if we do not truly trust God and His wonderful plan of grace. It is not enough to just mentally agree" or have a "head knowledge" of these important facts, it is absolutely vital that you trust God's Sacrificial payment for your sin! Ephesians 1:13 says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that how Spirit of promise,". God's grace is totally sufficient; you can now stop "trying" and start "trusting." The choice is yours. Have you made the decision of your lifetime? If you have not, please consider the consequences of the wrong decision. Read Fact #2 again. If you have trusted the blood of Jesus Christ to pay for all of your sins, you're saved!, and can now begin to learn more about the Lord and His wonderful plan for you. Ephesians 2:7.

Thank You for taking the time to read, If we can be of any further assistance or If you have any questions, Please feel free to e-mail us at: GraceBibleFellowship@graceonline.org

or write to:

Grace Bible Fellowship, 46 Yale Street, Sanford, Maine 04073

Sorry I have not responded sooner, I have been very busy lately.

I have read the scriptures over and over, and I have read what your interpretation is. My conclusion remains the same however, and I will gladly explain. (Please keep in mind that in my posts I'm simply offering a different point of view, whether you agree with it or not is up to you. I've seen some people get upset with each other over issues and I hope that doesn't happen here.) ;)

You said: “Ezekiel 33, is written to the Jews who were under the OT Law of Moses, the Covenant has been abolished even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, by Jesus in his flesh. (Eph 2:15)”

First of all, this has nothing to do with the OT Law, what God is establishing here is a principal, and it is not limited to just the Jews alone. If you disregard everything that was established under the old Covenant, then are you disregarding the Ten Commandments? Ezekiel 33 talks of a righteous man, so according to your response are you stating this passage is saying that men were only righteous in the OT? Were only Jews righteous? Absolutely not! The principal God was establishing here was that of a person whom He himself deemed as a righteous man, and says to the man that he will surely live (eternal security) in v13. BUT then HE (of his free will) turns from his ways and does evil, the consequence is death (wait, what happened to eternal security?). Die does not mean the first death and live can’t possibly mean physical life, those definitions would not fit with this passage. They can only mean eternal separation from God and eternal life with God.
It also talks about a sinner and unbeliever who decides to turn from his wicked ways and the result is he has life. It is clearly showing both sides of the situation. Re-read that carefully and consider what each sentence is saying. By the way, this same passage is repeated in Ezekiel three times, so this must be important.

Now concerning John 15, I do not agree with your interpretation of this scripture.

As you said yourself, this passage is not difficult to understand. Jesus establishes God as the gardener, Jesus is the vine, and we are branches. This can only mean believers since what he is saying here is that we are ‘in Christ’. The unsaved are not ‘in Christ’. In order to ‘remain’ in something, we have to be a part of it in the first place, right? This is a key element to this passage.
In vs.1 he establishes that he is the true vine (meaning he is the only way to God {John 14:6 “ I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.}”
In vs.2 God is the gardener who cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit (the believer who does not remain in Jesus) and prunes the branches who do. Remember, who he’s talking about are those who are saved, because to be a believer is to be ‘in Christ’. So what does it mean to bear fruit? We can only bare fruit by our faith and obedience to Christ. So those who are not faithful or obedient, are cut off. Those who remain faithful and obedient, God prunes or continues to work in us to rid our lives of our sins so that we can be closer to Him, and be better witnesses to the unbelievers and Glorify Him through us.
In vs.3 they have become believers through the message Christ spoke to them. This is followed by a command in vs.4, to REMAIN in him. He goes on to tell us why we should remain in him, because if we don’t remain faithful and obedient, we will not be being good witnesses and we will not be glorifying God. We must remain in him.
In vs.5 he restates who he is, and who we are, then goes on to tell us what will be the result ‘if’ (1st key word) we ‘remain’ (2nd key word) in him. That is he will remain in us and we will bear much fruit, because should we chose to not remain in him and thus separate ourselves from Christ we are then on our own, and that amounts to nothing.
Now you say in vs.6 it doesn’t say anything about being ‘cut off’ or ‘separated’, when indeed it does. The very beginning of the sentence says that ‘If’ (key word again) we don’t ‘remain’ (the biggest key word in this sentence) in him, that branch is thrown away. Again, in order to ‘remain’ in him we would have to be a part of him in the first place. But if it’s thrown away, how is that still attached to the vine? Can you throw a branch away that is still part of the vine? So the judgement is that they were once a part of the vine, and are now separated and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation).
In vs.7 he states again the two key words throughout this passage, that ‘if’ we ‘remain’ in him, we will have a relationship with him.
In vs.8 he states again the reason why we are to ‘remain’ in him, it’s for God’s glory in our fruit bearing (faith and obedience) which is evidence that we are true believers.
In vs.9 he addresses those who are in his love, we are to ‘remain’ in his love.
In vs.10 he tells us how we ‘remain’ in his love, by our obedience. Note that he uses ‘if’ again.
In vs.11 Your joy comes from knowing you have a friendship with Jesus, and that comes again from doing what he commands (states again in vs.14).

These two passages are clear principals that a loss of one’s salvation is possible. How is it possible? By our separating ourselves from Jesus, through a deliberate disobedience to his Word, we break that friendship and are cast away into the fire and burned. Does this happen at the drop of a hat? Certainly not! But the scriptures are clear that it can happen. When Jesus gave his sermon on the mount, he took the physical laws and elevated them to an inward spiritual reflection. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” And, “"You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.", etc. These all point to the attitude of your heart, something inward. That is what I have been trying to say in all my posts, that if you deliberately sin against God, it’s a result of something that happened inwardly and there is an attitude of disobedience to God. That is where a person runs into trouble. You asked me to answer your question, this whole post is an answer to your question. Jesus went to the cross and died for the sins of those who repent of them. Jesus gives me the free gift. That is the work he did in my salvation and became my Savior. But there is a responsibility we now have as believers, which is obedience to His Word as a new creation. Jesus himself stressed this numerous times, under the Old Covenant as well as the New, that never changed. My being obedient to His Word and His Will is my responsibility in making him the Lord of my life. You can NOT have one without the other. How can someone say, ‘I’ll accept the free gift but I don’t have to be obedient to his Word’. Or how could someone say, ‘I’ll obey what he said but I don’t have to accept what he did for me.’ Will such people be saved?
In Ezekiel, God said he was a righteous man, and said that he will surely live. But then the person did something that ended up costing him all of what he had. In John it continually stated 'if we' remain, pointing out that the responsibility is ours and the consequences of our decisions. We have to accept the free gift, and we have to remain in him.

I hope that you will at least consider what I've said, and re-read the scriptures. If you still disagree, then we know where each other stands and still accept each other as brothers and friends.

God bless.

everyday newborn,

Well, you can believe whatever teaching appeals to you, however if it is based on error, then you have a problem.

The Apostle Paul, explains this very carefully at Romans 11, concerning Israel and the Gentiles.

The vine in view at John 15, supported by the root is not something that came into existence with the NT Covenant

As I stated before one has to understand something about the husbandry of the vine in view herein, in OT the vine always represented Israel. In ther NT the vine of Jhn 15, is representative of Jesus.

The husbandman, chose which portion of the vine would produce the branches, and removed all others.

I know you have no idea what this means..but it is enough that the hearers of what Jesus was teaching atr Jhn 15, did.

The NT is the Branch which represents Jesus, He is the only remaininging Vine from the same root.

Symbolically HE is the ONE whom God used for Israel's sanctification for the hearing of the truth, they were the first to whom the Gospel was presented, their rejection of it, in effect caused them to be removed as branches, from the root, because of unbelief.

You fail to see, that fruit produced by the branches, is an allegory, and used to teach that God looks for the fruit of the spirit in believers (Gal 5:22-23), and that the branches that are "in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:" (Jhn 15:2) do not lose salvation at all, they are simply removed from this present life, but their spirit are saved, this is made clear at 1 Cor 5, where there is a saved man living in sin, note;

There are other viewpoints on this, take your pick.

1 Cor 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You just assume that the branches removed are those who lose salvation.

The context this passage at Jhn 15, is addressed to "unbelievers", His disciples beleieved God, but as of yet, had not come to Saving Faith in Jesus (they never came to saving faith in Him, until after His resurrection).

At Jhn 14:1, Jesus had said to them;

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

So, in superficiallly reading the passage you have chosen to make your point, produces a supercial undertsanding of what Jesus is teaching, and thus you have a doctrine which is foreign to the teaching of Biblical truth.

But if this is what you embrace, who am I to keep you from your pleasure.

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Bronzesnake on March 18, 2004, 04:45:04 AM

I believe we do have eternal security with Jesus, however, I do believe we can fall away and lose our salvation. We have free will even after becoming born again.
There are some verses in the scriptures which make it clear to me, here are some examples where Jesus makes it clear that some of "His" will not be saved.

Mat 25:1-13 speaks about ten "virgins" the term virgin denotes pure, or His. All had oil lamps, in other words, all had Jesus, but some were foolish and lost their share of oil.

Mat 25:14-30 speaks about a "master" who called "his servants" however, some of "his servants" did not receive his approval.

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again. We all have a certain amount of time to accept Jesus. When He returns in the "end times" at His appointed time, time is up, and if we are not in His service at that time, then we are doomed. The story of the prodigal son is a great example of a "son" leaving his father and returning and being welcomed back with open arms. The son was not received back because of some great work he had completed while he was away, he was a miserable failure without his father and he returned humiliated and humbled and willing to be a servant, so I do not believe we can do anything to save ourselves, we must kneel before the most awsome, powerful, wonderful force in the universe and beyond...Jesus... but Jesus will not force us to stay, He promised us free will and He keeps His promises.

Take care my brothers and sisters.

Bronzesnake.

bronzesnake,

Nice to see you, back posting with us.

No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)

If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins.

What do these verses mean, to you??

Heb 10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

and,

Rom 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through One, Jesus Christ. (NAS)

Notice verse 16, that the free gift by grace (vs 15) is given in spite of many offenses (vs 16) unto justification,
because of the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in life through the One, JESUS CHRIST

In otherwords, as I read, these verses, I see, the security of eternal life is NOT based (Not believers own performance), but Christ's Life) on the believers own performance, but based on the free gift of grace, that leads to justification,through the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST.

What is wrong with this premise..??

God Bless,
Petro

Quote from: Bronzesnake on March 18, 2004, 10:22:26 PM

Hello Petro.

Thanks for the welcome back...it's good to hear from you all.

"No doubt you believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?? (1 JHN 2:2)"

Of course.

"If you don't, believe His death is sufficient.

What about the blood of Jesus??

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

Or Just some sins."

Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However,

I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

bronzesnake,

I thought you believed in the "eternal security of the believer", it is odd, you stated;

Quote

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again.

The word we is what didn't sound right, to me....

Now you say:

Quote

I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

Maybe I had forgotten you don't believe the blood of Jesus covers all sins.

How does this last statement you have made reconcile itself to the sin that causes you to "fall away", you seem to contradict your statement wherein you stated:

Quote

Is it enough to cover all sins, of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future??

As I underdstand it, Anyone who comes to saving FAITH in Jesus is saved once and forever, I am not speaking of people that believe, I am speaking of people that BELIEVE, see there is two types of belief, one is to believe without commiting oneself, and the other type is belieivng with commitment.

What kind of belief are you refering to??

If there is sin that can cause you to fall away, how can you say you believe His blood is enough to cover all sins of those who put their faith in HIM, past present and future?

Either His blood covers all sins or it doesn't, which is it??

Quote

not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

No one is saved that doesn't believe Jesus shed His blood for their sins, and rose for their justification, this is clear from scripture.

Those who are saved, become children of God, born by the will of God, not of the flesh. (Jhn 1:13)

All who fall in this category, are Sved, Sealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead and become New Creatures in Christ, there names are Written in Heaven, they are given a New Heart and a New Spirit

I guess, you believe, those who believe without committing themselves are also in this category??

That doesn't sound quite right....

Blessings,
Petro

Quote from: Ambassador4Christ on February 21, 2004, 04:50:59 PM

Amen, A4c I will be at Doug Dodds fellowship in April.

Bronze Man! Welcome back Bro! How ya feelin'?

Anywho, I wanted to touch base on your statement here and ask you a question:

Quote

Of course it's enough to cover all sin... for every one on the entire earth from the very begining.

However, not everyone will be saved will they Petro?

I don't argue that Jesus' sacrafice was more than enough to cover all mankind's sins. I'm saying it's our free choice wheather we accept it or not, and once we accept it, we still have free will to turn back, fall away and lose the free gift.

The scriptures I posted are good examples of this.

Take care my brother.

Bronzesnake

If that is so my brother, then how do you explain this?

Quote

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Our bodies are from God. The Holy Spirit, Who takes up residence and makes that body a temple, is from God. We are not our own. Who's then are we? God's. We have been bought with a price. What price? The blood of Jesus Christ, amen? Question - If this body is from God, the Spirit that enlivens me is from God, and the privilege, the body, the temple and the very life have all been provided by, and bought through the blood of His Son, how then can I ever make a free-will choice to be unbought?

The question then becomes, will God ever give me back because of my sinful choices?

Quote

...for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Hebrews 13:5b

Great havin' ya back Bro!

ALLINALL, my coffee buddy! How have you been?

I do have a question for you about what you said in your post about, "how then can I ever make a free-will choice to be unbought?"

Do you still sin after you have accepted Christ? If you lose your free will after you have been bought, are you saying that God is sinning through you?

Before we accept Christ, are our sins forgiven? No. Why not? Because we haven't accepted Christ and asked for his forgiveness and repented. Now after we accept Christ, do you think we still need to ask forgiveness for the sins we commit, and repent of them? Do you think we still need to try and turn from our evil ways whatever they may be?

In 1 Cor 6:19-20, the last part said for us to glorify God in our bodies. Is he not speaking to us that WE need to glorify God in our bodies? Doesn't that make it something we have to do? If we have no free will and only God works through us, is God commanding himself to glorify himself through us?

In the Hebrews scripture 13:5b, is a point that I think some people miss in this debate. God makes the promise that HE will never leave nor forsake us, and when we have that fellowship with him we reap all the promises that he gives us. In order for us to reap it, we have to accept it. Now if we suddenly reject it, do we still reap the promises he gives? If we do, then is it okay to continue in our sin after we've accepted Christ, do we need to take up our cross daily, do we have to show that we love him by obeying his commands since his grace will cover all sins?

Please remember, and consider this. I'm trying to make a distinction here, between someone who walks with God yet stumbles here and there because they're not perfect, who humbles himself before God and asks for forgiveness of his sins, and tries to do God's will to the best of his ability. If this person continues to do so, he will remain in God's love, will he not? But if a person hardens their heart and doesn't ask for forgiveness of his sins and instead decides to justify it and/or ignore what God says about it, will such a person still have fellowship with God? Will someone who sins and says it's okay because 'God's grace covers me.', will have a place in God's kingdom? Is God's Grace a means to justify sin? Does sin not have any consequence after we have given our life to Christ?

Let me know what your thoughts are on this. :)

God bless

Quote from: Petro on March 19, 2004, 11:02:44 AM

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on March 19, 2004, 09:32:07 AM

Petro,

I have a response to your last post to me, and I have some questions to ask. But I will not continue this discussion with you if you continue in your sarcasm and accusations. You have shown me no desire to seek the truth, and you have not displayed any humbleness or love whatsoever.

Now, if you want to continue with this discussion I'd be happy to, if you so desire to in love and not arrogance.

If I have preceived this wrongly, please let me know.

God bless

everyday newborn,

What is the truth??

It is clear to me you, do not have it...whether it is because of unbelief or lack of faith, I cannot say..........but truth that is revealed by the same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead, is not to be rebuffed for the embracing of man made teachings.

Quote

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

It is fruitless to discuss such an important subject with someone, who believes he/she has it, I am not seeking truth, I am sharing it with you....

God loves you and desires you know it, and not allow yourself to be led by every whim of mans teachings, this is why Jesus said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

Quote

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..

Blessings,

Petro

Again, you lack love and humbleness in your response.

Truth is in the word of God, and you said yourself it's fruitless to discuss something like this with someone who claims to have it, which then in the very next part of the sentence you said you did and I didn't. You hypocrite! I say I'm seeking the truth because I don't claim to know everything and this is a learning process for me, and will be till the day I die. But you claim to know it all and again exposed your arrogance.

God bless

Hi Petro.

I do believe that Jesus' sacrifice covers all sin...didn't you read that in my post to you?

Answer me this Petro.
Why are we here on this earth waiting for Jesus to return?
His sacrifice is great enough to cover all sin, so why not just end this earth age now and welcome every man, woman, and child into the eternal Kingdom regardless of what sins we are all guilty of ? The way you seem to convey His sacrificial work, there is no person capable of of being condemned to hell at all.

The truth of the matter is that even after we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we must still do as He commanded us to do. We still have "work" to do. Now please, don't misunderstand me... I do not believe we can "work" our way into Heaven, without accepting Jesus we will get nothing but eternal damnation, but, Jesus makes it clear in many of His scriptures that some of "His" servants will be rebuked for being "unprofitable".

Here, in this following verse, the word servant is used to make a clear distinction that He is referring to one of His.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are several other places in scripture where Jesus clearly warns us not to be lazy at the risk of losing our eternal security.

Let me be clear again...His sacrifice is more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child regardless of what sins we have committed...yet many will fall short and end up in eternal hell.

I am saved by the blood of Jesus Petro, but Jesus is very specific about the "work" that I must do before He returns. Please carefully re-read the verses I posted from Mat 25. look at the terminology that is used to describe exactly who is being described and what eventually happens to them, and why.

Take care Petro.

Allinall Thank you for the welcome back. My health is precarious, but for the time being I am enjoying my time back here talking with all the fantastic, faithful Christians.

bronzesanke,

One could hardly use the parable of the ten virgins to teach, the doctrine of "lose your salvation" at Mat 25, it is clear the five unwise virigns were not known to the groom

There are many today, that assume that because they know something of God, or Jesus, they are known by God or Jesus, this is flooshness, they may believe they are a part of the the church, but unfortunately this is only a presumption on their part. And ususally these believe this, because they believe they can do something to be a part of the Bride of Christ, it is "faith and their works" which ultimately will save them.

Oh yes, they understand that Jesus died for their sins and they claim to believe all the doctrines in the right order, but when it gets right down to it, its their contribution of their "little mite" of works, that will make it come to pass.

The parable of the talents, is not as clear cut as the one preceding it, but it can hardly be used to prove "salvation the free gift" is lost because of what men do after they are saved, don't get me wrong, I believe Christians will produce fruit and will perform work for the Lord, but it is not to what caps or secures "eternal salvation" it is the result of loving to serve God, because of what He has done for His servants.

For those who do not believe Faith is given by God, it is natural to except, that it is there faith which produced their salvation, and very naturally leads to a rationalizing of this doctrine which believes a man can lose the "free gift" of salvation.

If a christian can lose salvation, how is it, that this is possible, is it because a christian can jump out of Gods hand (as some woman stated once), Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It is clear if no man can pluck Christians out of the Father's hand, this would include the person themselves

No, I do not believe in this doctrine that teaches man is ultimately saved, because He did some work which clinched the "Free Gift" of God,

...........it is clear to me God equips every person whom He calls, even giving them the necessary FAITH to believe in Jesus;

Having Pre destinated them unto adoption, and to be conformed into the image of His dear Son, by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, and it is all based on Jesus's finished works at the cross, and His Faith which is imputed to them that believe.

[bNot our Faith but, the Faith of Jesus.

The lose your faith doctrine appears to be a different gospel
in the end based on mans faith and his works.

Notice this verses;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:22

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be
Gal 2:16

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:22

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

Although Rev 14:12 is a dispensational verse but, I believe Christians do keep Gods commandments, not perfectly, in the letter, but in the spirit, for the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life, and its thru many offenses (Rom 5:16) men are justified, because where ever sin abounded, grace did much more abound:(Rom 5:20)

It is all only by the power of Gods Holy Spirit in us, that any can be in the FAITH of Jesus Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1-2)

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Bronzesnake on March 20, 2004, 04:51:17 PM

Hi Petro.

We can argue against each other's views on this topic but it isn't going to do anyone any good. I have stated the reasons for my belief on the subject, as have you.

I will however, point out one more verse which AJ posted, and ask you to think about it.

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

This verse makes it clear that those who were once "enlightened" can "fall away" and in fact, once this occurs they are doomed to hell, because it is "impossible to renew them again unto repentance."

Petro, it is impossible to argue against such a clear cut verse such as this that is very specific about those who have fallen away, and lost their eternal salvation.

Take care my brother.

bronzesnake,

This verse is the most abused, by the lose your slavation camp, brother, and primarily because it is interpreted to mean one can lose slavation, when in fact the words "it is impossible" sets the interpretation of this verse as a hypothetical statement in stone.

One cannot, take it, and make it state, what it does not stae at all; Note the Interlinear version;

Heb 6
4 For [it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6 and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

What these verses clearly state, is this;

It is impossible for anyone who is saved, and falls away,........ to be renewed again to repentance.

Even the heretic J.B. Phillips gets it right, in his vernacular version;

6 "When you find men who have been enlightened, who received the Holy Spirit
5 who have known the wholesome nourishment of the Word of God and touched the spiritual resources of the eternal world
6 and who then fall away, it proves impossible to make them repent as they did at first. For they are recrucifying the Son of God in their own souls, and by their conduct exposing him to shame and contempt.

If this were "possible", for those who are saved to "fall away" (by sinning, And What is Sin?? see 1 John 3:4), it would be impossible to bring them back to repentance, this is clearly the teaching of these verses.

But this is not what this camp teaches, they teach that a man can fall away and after losing his free-giftbe brought back to repentance, and once again enjoy fellowship with God, because he can be restored, back to sonship.

If this is true, I ask you, whose blood is sacrificed at that alter
for the sin, which caused this sinners restoration??

The very fact you state, that Jesus's blood is enough to pay for all sin, past, present and future, but that a man can be saved, sin and become unsaved, and later repent and be re-saved, tells me you have not given this verse much thought at all.

Its nothing but the blood of Jesus.

He died once and for all, covered all the sins of those who are saved, and inspite of many offenses, the ones who are called chosen, elect saints will be justified, by His Blood and Resurrection.

The "lose slavation" doctrine on the surface appears to be and innocent misunderstanding of Gods Word, it actuality it is a decptive doctrine, that brings men into bondage of works, by which they expect to be made righteous because they keep some kind of Law, yet is clear Paul counted all this as dung, notice what he says about it;

Phiul 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

You can insert the word "commandment/s" for the word "law" at verse 9, and you have the insidious teaching which glorifies men and not God.

Don't feel as thou you must believe what I have shared with you, call me a liare if you will, but consider what the Word clearly says at these verses that is all, I simply ask you, to think about it.

God Bless,

Petro

Hello Petro my brother.

I can say the same to you my friend...
Don't feel as though you must believe what I have shared with you, call me a liar if you will, but consider what the Word clearly says in these verses that is all, I simply ask you, to think about it.

Petro quote...
"This verse is the most abused, by the lose your slavation camp, brother, and primarily because it is interpreted to mean one can lose slavation, when in fact the words "it is impossible" sets the interpretation of this verse as a hypothetical statement in stone.

One cannot, take it, and make it state, what it does not stae at all; Note the Interlinear version;"

Heb 6
4 For [it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6 and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

This verse is most misunderstood by those of us who subscribe to OSAS.

Notice that it doesn't say 'It is impossible for those once enlightened to fall away'

It reads...

[it is] impossible for those once enlightened,
6 and [who] fell away, to renew them again unto repentance;

Plain and simple Petro, it isn't difficult to read, and it states that people who fall away are doomed...period, don't re-interpret it to say something else.

Here is another example of men who called on the name of Jesus, believing they were saved, but Christ had an eye opening response to them...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven[/b]; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus clear states that we must do something to enter His Kingdom... we must do His Father's will.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
This verse makes it clear that these men truely believed they were saved Christians by prophecying and doing "wonderful works" in His name.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God Bless,

Bronzesnake...By the way Petro, I would never call you a liar.

Speaking of the Fathers WILL

Jesus said;

Jhn 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

again,

2 Tim 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Christians need to do the will of God, this is for sure, and thre Lord knows His own, and will never give them up, because they are given to Him, by the Father, it is Gods will He (Jesus) lose nothing, this is why the law cannot thwart, Gods Will, and why the Holy Spirit seals all true believers, all others are imposters, even thou they may say they know God this will evidenced by Jesus's own words on the day of judgment when He will say to many;

I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is imperative we believe every word spoken by Jesus, since this is the will of God, and the only way, we can know His will.

Ex`18
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

God Bless,

Petro

Depart from me

Quote from: Bronzesnake on March 22, 2004, 03:41:37 PM

Hello Petro.

This is really my last response on this topic.

Petro quote...
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The matter is settled, in His words, which say;

I never knew you,

The point is Petro, they believed they were saved just as much as you believe you are saved.

So I have pointed out two deadly scenarios. 1) We can lose our eternal security, and not because Jesus' sacrafice wasn't enough to cover all sin.

2) We can deceive ourselves into believing we are saved, when in fact we are not.

May God bless you Petro.

Get Thee Behind Me.

bronzesanke,

Thanks for your honesty, it was like pulling a tooth, but I will accept your answer, as a final answer of what you would teach.

This is quite different than your previous answers. Understanding this chnages the perception of what Heb 6 is teaching.

I hope you understand that this is exactly the point I was making, people can be deceived into believing they are saved, when the truth is, they are not.

One can always understand this, if one examines their doctrines, concerning what they do, with the Words spoken by Jesus.

If they do not believe Jesus, the odds are they are not saved, but deceived.

It is imperitive to examine oneself to ascertain where one stands with God.

It is God the Holy Spirit who works in every child of God to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Phil2:13)

This is the test; everyone who has an intense desire to hear and do, Gods Word, is a child of God.

Those who do not, hear nor do Gods word, especially the Words Jesus spoke, are none of His, because they have not His Spirit.

It is the goodness of God that leadeth men to repentance.

God Bless,

Petro

Everyday Newborn,

Hey man! Sorry so long in reply. I'm not avoiding ya, trust me! :) You have many things for me to reply to, so please, bear with me.

Quote

First off, I've been blessed! How have you been?

As for the sinning, yes I do! And I'm not saying that God makes me sin. That would, in fact, be contrary to scripture:

Quote

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

James 1:13-14

Then you went on to ask:

Quote

Before we accept Christ, are our sins forgiven? No. Why not? Because we haven't accepted Christ and asked for his forgiveness and repented. Now after we accept Christ, do you think we still need to ask forgiveness for the sins we commit, and repent of them? Do you think we still need to try and turn from our evil ways whatever they may be?

Paid for, yes. Forgiven, no. Not until we accept Christ. Do we then need to ask forgiveness for sins, and repent? Yes. Do we need to turn from our evil ways? Yes - in that we "put off the old man and put on the new."

Quote

In 1 Cor 6:19-20, the last part said for us to glorify God in our bodies. Is he not speaking to us that WE need to glorify God in our bodies? Doesn't that make it something we have to do? If we have no free will and only God works through us, is God commanding himself to glorify himself through us?

As for the 1 Cor. 6:19-20 passage, yes, he is saying that we must glorify God in our bodies. Contextually, that is in reference to our being sexually pure. Just clarifying what others may not be sure about. :) And yes, that is something we have to do.

Now. You're probably wondering why I'm agreeing with you, and at the same time disagreeing, right? Good! We are making progress then. My point isn't if we have free will my friend, just to what extent God allows that will to be enacted. You said "Doesn't that make it something we have to do?" I agree that we must do something, I simply don't agree to what end that doing results. Following me? That is, why do I do? Is it to maintain something I didn't buy, provide, or otherwise control? Or is it to simply obey?

Continued...

...THE AFORE MENTIONED CONTINUATION...

I believe that our "doing" is simple obedience, not for the sake of maintaining the salvation Jesus bought for us with His blood, by God's plan, but for the purpose of "conforming us into the image of His Son." How so?

You have to understand what the Law's purpose was, and how Jesus fulfilled that Law, completed that Law, and made that Law today of no effect. The Law was both prophetic and provisionary in nature. It pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ and His ultimate sacrifice to come, while providing for sin then by covering that sin. Covering, mind you. Not taking that sin away. Jesus alone could do that. Consider:

Quote

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 10:1-14

Jesus completed the Law with His death, burial and resurrection. His blood perfected what the blood of animals could not - those who are being sanctified. This is key. I'm throwing alot at you, and now would be a good time to stop, ask you a question, and let you mull this information over. My question, after you've had a chance to think about this part, is...what does it mean, "perfected for all time those who are being sanctified"?

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on March 19, 2004, 12:06:08 PM

Quote from: Petro on March 19, 2004, 11:02:44 AM

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on March 19, 2004, 09:32:07 AM

Quote

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

Quote

Of course, I trust you have a a reliable version of the scriptures which can be used to check, what has been shared with you.

But thanks for your comments, anyhow..

Blessings,

Petro

Again, you lack love and humbleness in your response.

Its the same old argument, you desire to argue over, this is the reason you posted what you did, not because you want to learn, you have had these arguments before. So quit acking as thou you are the inujured party.

Quote

Truth is in the word of God, and you said yourself it's fruitless to discuss something like this with someone who claims to have it, which then in the very next part of the sentence you said you did and I didn't. You hypocrite! I say I'm seeking the truth because I don't claim to know everything and this is a learning process for me, and will be till the day I die. But you claim to know it all and again exposed your arrogance.

God bless

everydaynewborn,

My answer to you, was based on your answer, that I quoted , and will quoite again;

[quoted] posted by everday newborn,

You have shown me no desire to seek the truth,

Quote

Yopu insinuated here that you were teaching truth; thus my answer to you.

The truth is, if you are saved once, you are saved forever, God doesn't do things half baked.

The idea God saves a person one moment to unsave the next is a doctrine, thats been around since the first century, and is perpetuated by those that want to work their way into Gods presence.

A hypocrite is one who, will say something one moment and then change it the next.

Lose your salvation proponents, say they are saved by grace out of one side of their mouth, while preaching a gospel, that I believed, as their part; of deal, if this is true; the it stand to reason, that if they produced saving faith, they can lose it, and then repent and regain it again, so the round and around they go, a never ending cycle.

Someone shares the truth with them, and they get upset, to hear, that God has saved for ever, it is almost as though one needs to re evangelize them all over, in most cases, they are totally unreceptive to the truth.

This is where they get stuck, and never grow out of this, and never have tiome for anything else, because they have to tend to their own selves, for fear of falling out of grace.

As for learning being a lifetime, this is true, but slavation by Grace thru Faith, is foundational to the begining of this learning experience.

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on, perhaps you might start tonight at these verse;

Heb 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

I trust this will help you.

Petro

Quote from: Petro
[quote

I desire to share my point of view just as you desire to share yours, I've taken what you've said and considered them, but has not changed my view. Thus I continued with sharing my view, just as you have. I'm not here just simply for arguements sake, as you seem to believe, but rather to discuss an issue because there might be something I'm missing or an idea that I didn't think about before. The difference so far between me and you is that I've had the attitude that I reserve the right to be right, and I reserve the right to be wrong. But you don't have the latter, and so your responses were full of sarcasm and accusations, both of which the attitude behind them I did not care for, and now here again you continue with this attitude and accuse me of just wanting to argue not wanting to learn and play the injured party. You don't agree with what I say, fine. But don't continue with this attitude you have, because it is not one that is in love and humbleness.

Quote

Yopu insinuated here that you were teaching truth; thus my answer to you.

I did no such thing, that was your interpretation of what I said. Instead of asking me to clarify what I meant, you assumed your own conclusion. What I was saying was explained in my above response, that I am willing to consider what others say because I might be wrong. Sure I believe I have a grasp on some of the truth ('some' because I don't know everything), but I could be missing something. You on the other hand, think you know everything therefore anything that is of a different oppinion you automatically write it off and do not even consider what they're saying. All I'm asking for is a mutual respect that we have different views and understanding, and we can calmly share those with each other without sarcasm or insults. Please, can we do that?

Quote

The truth is, if you are saved once, you are saved forever, God doesn't do things half baked.

Does that mean you're free to do what you want without any consequences, because you're saved and God's grace covers you? If so, where does it say it's okay to sin? If not, then what are the consequences of deliberate sin?

Quote

The idea God saves a person one moment to unsave the next is a doctrine, thats been around since the first century, and is perpetuated by those that want to work their way into Gods presence.

There are those who believe that they must do works to get into heaven, but that is not the doctrine I'm sharing here. Jesus commands us to obey, and by doing so we'll remain in his love. What happens if we don't obey is we won't remain in his love. Now how can someone be saved who isn't in Christ's love? We obey because we become slaves to God (Rom 6), and tells us what the results are for being obedient. When we are obedient as slaves we are doing the will of the Father. If we deliberately become disobedient, we're not in his will and have broken fellowship with him. We become like those who say 'Lord, Lord' but are cast away because they did not do the Father's will. In our obedience to his Word, we are in the Father's love, doing his will, and thus have a relationship and fellowship with him. Apart from our obedience, we have nothing.

Quote

Lose your salvation proponents, say they are saved by grace out of one side of their mouth, while preaching a gospel, that I believed, as their part; of deal, if this is true; the it stand to reason, that if they produced saving faith, they can lose it, and then repent and regain it again, so the round and around they go, a never ending cycle.

I'm not saying that once you accept Christ, you commit a sin and lose your salvation, repent and get it again, commit another and lose it, repent and regain it, etc. God's patience and grace run deep, and covers and always will cover those who are humble before God. But if you deliberately continue to be disobedient even after you accepted Christ, and harden your heart, will such sins still be forgiven by God? In your deliberate disobedience you become an enemy of God. We are saved by God's grace, but his grace is no means to go on sinning. To say that you can continue to deliberately sin and do what you want because God's grace will cover a multitude of sins is not a teaching I see anywhere in the Bible, and is a dangerous doctrine to believe in.

Quote

Someone shares the truth with them, and they get upset, to hear, that God has saved for ever, it is almost as though one needs to re evangelize them all over, in most cases, they are totally unreceptive to the truth.

This is where they get stuck, and never grow out of this, and never have tiome for anything else, because they have to tend to their own selves, for fear of falling out of grace.

As for learning being a lifetime, this is true, but slavation by Grace thru Faith, is foundational to the begining of this learning experience.

Again, we are saved by God's grace, and I fully believe it. If we remain in his love, and we do so by being obedient by faith even though we may stumble here and there, and we continue to be humble before him and do his will, we will always be in fellowship with him, we will always have the Holy Spirit to guide us as we listen for it, and we will always be under his grace (because we will always need it) as long as we are on this earth.
But if we turn from our ways and sin, none of the righteous things we've done before will be remembered. Why? By our turning away we are rejecting God and have left his fellowship, we're not being obedient to his word, and we're not loving him. If it were not so, then the road would be broad and the gate wide that leads to life, and narrow would be the road and the gate small that leads to destruction.

Quote

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on,

I have accepted ALL of God's Word as the truth, perhaps you need to accept ALL of God's Word, not in pieces you feel safe in.

God bless

Hey Everyday Newborn! Thanks for considering what I presented, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it after you've had a chance to collect them. But I wanted to add this to those thoughts, in reference to something you said to Petro, if ya don't mind. You said:

Quote

Are we free to do what we want? Nope! We're blood bought slaves. It is God Who works in us both to "will and to do His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). And Paul warns us in Romans 6...

Quote

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Paul tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin, and to not let that sin rule us. Yet you point out what many who believe you can lose your salvation do not. You point out the deliberate continuation of sinful practice being the result, you believe, in losing salvation. This is one thing God says about it. Now, prayerfully read this. See what He says, and consider it from the perspective that you can't lose your salvation and then ask, "What then does this mean?"

Quote

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:26-31

And, as usual, I'll be happy to put my understanding of just what this means if you are so inclined to ask brother.

God bless!

Quote from: Allinall on March 19, 2004, 10:13:01 AM

Bronze Man! Welcome back Bro! How ya feelin'?

Anywho, I wanted to touch base on your statement here and ask you a question:

Quote

If that is so my brother, then how do you explain this?

Quote

...for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Hebrews 13:5b

Great havin' ya back Bro!

Sorry I didn't answer you sooner.

Here is another set of verses where Jesus says we can fall away, and unless we repent we will lose our eternal salvation.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

It's quite clear my friend whether you chose to believe what Jesus told us about it or not.

The bottom line is, that I will continue to keep Jesus at the top of my every thought, and therefore, I will do those things which He has commanded me to do to the best of my abillity.

Bronzesnake

Quote

The bottom line is, that I will continue to keep Jesus at the top of my every thought, and therefore, I will do those things which He has commanded me to do to the best of my abillity.

Bronzesnake

Man! If only we OSASers could be like that! That's the key to any life my friend. But, as I'm sure you knew I would, would contend. Graciously pointing out things bro, not badgering or making you out to be anything but a God-fearing brother in Christ my friend. :) But let's look first at the passages you gave in support of your belief...

Quote

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

To interpret this passage in the way you have, they've all lost their salvation, because they've lost their first love. Here's the problem. Why then does God address them as the "church" in Ephesus? If they are not His own, if they have lost their salvation because He's removed their candlestick from their/his place, then they cannot be a called out assembly as they'd technically have, gone back in. That, and I would contend that we are equated with being lights in this world, not in Heaven. He is the light, we are the reflection of that glory. I would interpret it to be that God would remove their opportunity for witnessing, even removing them from life, and taking them home.

But here's another problem. The scriptures blatantly state that those who do fall away suffer loss:

Quote

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

What then is the loss suffered? For one, he loses all that he worked for most in life - wood, hay and straw. Furthermore, he stands one day, before the One Who gave him all...with not one thing to show for it. He was given the foundation, which remains - Christ. But upon that, he did no good building. His works were not as unto the Lord, were not in service of the Lord, and did not reflect the working of the Lord in his life. He has nothing - but the foundation which God laid in his life - Jesus Christ.

Man, I know that there's alot of inference derived from God's word that seems as though we might lose that which Christ paid for, once for all, on the cross. I also know, that alot of OSASers hold to verses, that while comforting, do not necessarily deal with those verses we misunderstand. That's why, my friend, an understanding of just what Christ did on the cross in reference to the O.T. Law is of utmost importance.

Think about this stuff Brother. And God bless! :)

Allinall,

I'm doing well these days, always room for improvement but it's nice sometimes to be able to look back and know that you've made some accomplishments through God's grace and strength.

<Again I have many questions so please bare with me> ;D

Quote

author=Allinall
I believe that our "doing" is simple obedience, not for the sake of maintaining the salvation Jesus bought for us with His blood, by God's plan, but for the purpose of "conforming us into the image of His Son." How so?

But my question to this is, why would we need to conform ourselves to the image of His Son? We're already saved, so why would you have to do anything beyond accepting him? If accepting his free gift of salvation was good enough, why would we need to obey, or to take up our cross daily, or to do his will? If what you say is true, not being obedient or doing his will isn't going to make any difference because we're sealed, locked in, always and forever, for eternity. If not having fellowship with Christ is not important, why then did God sacrifice his Son for us? Was it to have a bunch of saved people who don't love him with him in heaven?

This may seem like a sarcastic question, but rather it's a very serious question. I ask it because the difference I see in our views, is I believe the scriptures teach that salvation is in making Jesus our Lord and Saviour. I go back to an ancient question many people have, which is why did God create man in the first place? Was it not for someone to fellowship with, that would walk in his ways and love him of their own free will? God's purpose of creation was not to reconcile us to him, but rather for fellowship. Reconciliation had to come because of our sin getting in the way. So we need to accept what Christ did for us on the cross, repent and ask forgiveness, thus by his blood making him our Saviour. But the scriptures say that anyone who loves him will obey what he commands, and that those who obey his commands live in him. So our love for our God is shown in our obidence to his commands, and in doing so we're in him, in his will, and we have the fellowship he desired as the reason for creating us in the first place.
Now the once saved always saved belief ignores the first part (Lord) and choses to focus only on the second part (Saviour). So my question is, if not making him the Lord of our life (meaning having to obey what he commands) is not important or have any consequences, if Jesus died for ALL sins whether they're on purpose or not, it goes back to my original question of 'will heaven then be filled with saved people who don't love God?' ???

Side note: Nobody is fully obedient to God's commands, but I hope from all the previous posts that you know that I have made a distinction between someone who loves God but will stumble here and there, and someone who decides to turn from their ways and disobey, so I will not have to go into further detail in that again. ;)

Quote

My question, after you've had a chance to think about this part, is...what does it mean, "perfected for all time those who are being sanctified"?

What Jesus did on the cross is the ONLY thing that can reconcile believers to the Father, and ALWAYS will be the only thing. :)

God bless

Allinall, my brother.

Bronzesnake quote...

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."

Allinall,

Quote

To interpret this passage in the way you have, they've all lost their salvation, because they've lost their first love.

I haven't interpreted it at all. I simply read it for what it says.

Jesus makes a clear distinction that each of these seven churches are "His", (Christians) and that is important to understand because it distinguishes exactly who He is directing His Revelations to.

After He makes it clear that He is addressing His church, He goes on to "warn" them that they must do His "work" or face the terrible prospect of loosing their eternal gift. He warns those of us who have fallen away that we can still be saved, but we must repent, and do the works you did at first They have not lost their salvation...yet However, they are in danger of losing it, if they don't obey His instructions to them.

Sorry I can't continue this conversation any longer my brother, I am very sick today and I'm going back to bed.

Bronzesnake

Quote from: Everyday Newborn on March 25, 2004, 01:43:17 PM

Quote from: Petro
[quote

I desire to share my point of view

everydfay newborn

At least you are honest, and recognize this doctrine to be your view point. It is when you begin to teach it as though it was inspired that causes divisions.

Quote

you desire to share yours,

Thats where you are wrong, what I have shared with you is not my viewpoint, it is what Gods Word teaches, pure and simple.

Quote

it is not one that is in love and humbleness.

Oh, some may schmooze you, and make you feel good by agreeing with you about the lose your salvation teaching, but in reality, love is reflected in the giving of Gods word out in truth and righteousness, and keeping the weak brethern from stumbling, it is good to keep Gods commandments, but, your viewpoint makes it clear, that by not keeping it, one can lose the gift.

And that is unscriptural.

Quote

The scriptures answer this very question, perhaps if you should read Rom 5:15, through Rom 8:39, this will help you.

Quote

re those who believe that they must do works to get into heaven, but that is not the doctrine I'm sharing here.

You are speaking of unbelievers here, now....then??

Well, that changes everything, you quoted an OT scripture, to shore up this doctrine of sin and lose your gift.

Is it because you did not understand it?

Quote

commands us to obey, and by doing so we'll remain in his love. What happens if we don't obey is we won't remain in his love.

One can read about this very thing, concerning a fellow Christian in the early church at 1 Cor 5:1-5.

God is a jealouse God, especially for His namesake, Paul said to the jews at;

Rom 2
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God will allow satan to kill the flesh of those who insist on living in sin, who claim the blood of Jesus, even to kill the body, that the spirit might be saved. So for this reason it is good to obey, it is the duty of Christians to be obedient, by this,one proves they Love the Lord. Obedience produces more Faith, from Faith unto Faith., the Just shall live by Faith.

But the fearful, and the unbelievingand the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Those who reject Jesus own words, are counted among those who are unbeliving, there are christians (they claim to be anyhow,) and yet reject Jesus own words concerning eternal life of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

Those who reject that eternal life is not the present state while claiming Jesus as savior, are really unbelievers, they are deceived. Believers in Jesus, know and believe that they have eternal life, in Him, and it is based on what He did, at Calvary, not on their own performance.

This is the reason why I down play the need to keep the commandments, I say let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

Quote

How can someone be saved who isn't in Christ's love?

When God gives those whom, He choses to the Son, they become the beloved, and these, are loved by Him, and we are assured, there is nothing that can separate us from His love, nothing neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:35_39, you really should read Rom 8.

Quote

obey because we become slaves to God (Rom 6), and tells us what the results are for being obedient. When we are obedient as slaves we are doing the will of the Father. If we deliberately become disobedient, we're not in his will and have broken fellowship with him.

We become like those who say 'Lord, Lord' but are cast away because they did not do the Father's will. In our obedience to his Word, we are in the Father's love, doing his will, and thus have a relationship and fellowship with him. Apart from our obedience, we have nothing.

You are reading more into this than scripture tells us, if one is slave to Christ, this means he is saved, they can never be like those of Mat 7:21-22 because Jesus shall say to them in that day, ............, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not I use to know you...but now I don't.

Broken fellowship, is quite different from being disowned, God does not disown His children.

Quote

I'm not saying that once you accept Christ, you commit a sin and lose your salvation, repent and get it again, commit another and lose it, repent and regain it, etc.

Well, how many sins, must one commit to be judged to an
eternaty in Hell??

It only takes one sin.

Your hypothetical just won't fly.

Quote

God's patience and grace run deep, and covers and always will cover those who are humble before God. But if you deliberately continue to be disobedient even after you accepted Christ, and harden your heart, will such sins still be forgiven by God?

continued..................

It is clear from Heb 6, if one who sins and can lose His salvation he cannot be brought back to repentance, so, your understanding of one who sins and humbles himself before God means he must repent, in order to be forgiven of that sin, if you believe one who sins, does not lose salvation, it is because the Blood of Jesus covers that sin, and will cover all sins, until the day he dies.

So it is a matter of falling out of felllowship, not losing ones salvation.

Now there is another spin to this that bronzesanke brought up at the end, of our conversation, and that is a person can be deceived into believing he is saved, and that deception comes about by the person believes that through keeping Gods Commandments he can be saved.

This position is unbiblical... one cannot be saved by keeping the commandments, because the commandments were never given for that purpose, they were given to men, that they
might examine themselves to see if they had sinned against God.

Quote

In your deliberate disobedience you become an enemy of God.

Because dleiberate means you planned it, and weighed the sin against the consequence, and then excuted it, this is the despite done to the Mercy and Grace of God. This is not what a saved man of God does, this is evidence of an unsaved person, and it should serve notice to those who see it happening, those who are deceived into believing they are saved, can never see this point.

Quote

We are saved by God's grace, but his grace is no means to go on sinning. To say that you can continue to deliberately sin and do what you want because God's grace will cover a multitude of sins is not a teaching I see anywhere in the Bible, and is a dangerous doctrine to believe in.

The key word is deliberate; in your hypothetical is what makes this teaching unbiblical.

I know of no Christian that teaches such things, do you??

Quote

This is true.

Quote

But if we turn from our ways and sin, none of the righteous things we've done before will be remembered.

You keep quoting this OT scripture, as though it is relevant.

The fact is if anyone who claims to be in Christ does not commit such things by his doing the very thing spoken of, he proves he never was saved. He deceived himself. And all
others who are not perceptive.

Quote

Why our turning away we are rejecting God and have left his fellowship, we're not being obedient to his word, and we're not loving him. If it were not so, then the road would be broad and the gate wide that leads to life, and narrow would be the road and the gate small that leads to destruction.

I disagree with your undestanding of this, it is clear to me you have work to do, on what the scriptures really teach concerning this.

Quote

We just talked about;

You need to accept Gods Woprd as the truth, and move on,

I have accepted ALL of God's Word as the truth, perhaps you need to accept ALL of God's Word, not in pieces you feel safe in.

God bless

Quote

Said the kettle to the pot.

How long have you been studying scripture, anyhow??

Blessings,
Petro

Heya Newborn! I love questions man! Unless they're from my 6 year old and consist mainly of "Why?" ;D

Quote

But my question to this is, why would we need to conform ourselves to the image of His Son? We're already saved, so why would you have to do anything beyond accepting him?

We do no such conformation brother! The work is God's:

Quote

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13

...and...

Quote

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:30-31

We do not need to conform ourselves to God's image. That is God's work. Yet God did not make us mere robots that He moves about. Rather, He gave us a will, and sovereignly allows us to make choices - whether to obey Him or to disobey Him. By obeying, we allow the Spirit of God, through the Word of God, to conform us into the image of the Son of God. If not...we are not conformed, we fight the working of sanctification in our daily lives, and we effectively "bushel our candle." Why must we do beyond accepting Him? Because He has commanded us to do so, and to be "doers of the word." It is through our obedience that God changes us.

Quote

If accepting his free gift of salvation was good enough, why would we need to obey, or to take up our cross daily, or to do his will?

Why obey? Because we love Him:

Quote

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:15-17

Why take up our cross? Because we must die to ourselves in order for Him to live through us:

Quote

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 9:23

...and...

Quote

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 2:15-21

Not only for Him to live through us, but for us to be effectively conformed to that image.

...CONTINUED

...STILL GOING...

Done? Good! Now you see my point! Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation. We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it. We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us. In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him. And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet. We possess only the blessed blood that saved us. We are the servant that took the talent and buried it. We've gained nothing. But, "...he himself will be saved."

Quote

If not having fellowship with Christ is not important, why then did God sacrifice his Son for us? Was it to have a bunch of saved people who don't love him with him in heaven?

And this is the point man! We lose fellowship - not relationship. Why then did God sacrifice His Son for us? That question reminds me alot of "...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?" Why, oh why would we neglect so great a salvation? Not lose it, not give it up. Rather neglect it by counting that fellowship as meaningless.

Quote

This may seem like a sarcastic question, but rather it's a very serious question. I ask it because the difference I see in our views, is I believe the scriptures teach that salvation is in making Jesus our Lord and Saviour. I go back to an ancient question many people have, which is why did God create man in the first place? Was it not for someone to fellowship with, that would walk in his ways and love him of their own free will? God's purpose of creation was not to reconcile us to him, but rather for fellowship.

I would contend brother that God made everything, us included, for His glory:

Quote

everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43:7

...and...

Quote

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11

Our salvation, our conformation, our very lives are for His glory. :)

Quote

Now the once saved always saved belief ignores the first part (Lord) and choses to focus only on the second part (Saviour). So my question is, if not making him the Lord of our life (meaning having to obey what he commands) is not important or have any consequences, if Jesus died for ALL sins whether they're on purpose or not, it goes back to my original question of 'will heaven then be filled with saved people who don't love God?'

Nope! It will be filled with people who do. Here's a question you haven't considered for your position. How do we know we love God? And everytime we fail to obey, do we then fall away and lose our salvation because we don't love Him? Where's the line? I do know that you've addressed this, I'm just asking where the line of stubbling becomes a falling in your eyes.

Quote

Quote:
My question, after you've had a chance to think about this part, is...what does it mean, "perfected for all time those who are being sanctified"?

What Jesus did on the cross is the ONLY thing that can reconcile believers to the Father, and ALWAYS will be the only thing.

Not talking reconciling brother. That's a done deal. I'm talking about being perfected and sanctified. What does that mean?

Quote

At least you are honest, and recognize this doctrine to be your view point. It is when you begin to teach it as though it was inspired that causes divisions.

It is my interpretation of the scriptures, thus is it my viewpoint yes.

Quote

Thats where you are wrong, what I have shared with you is not my viewpoint, it is what Gods Word teaches, pure and simple.

No, it is your interpretation of what God's Word teaches, thus it is your view point, pure and simple. Unless you've had some divine intervention telling you this is what it means, you'll need to accept it's your own interpretation.

Quote

I'm not asking anybody to schmooze me or make me feel good, they certianly don't have to agree with me. But as I've stated before, I just didn't care for the attitude in your responses.

Quote

The scriptures answer this very question, perhaps if you should read Rom 5:15, through Rom 8:39, this will help you.

I have, and that's why I was asking the questions as an opposite of what I believe.

Quote

What is the reason for exiling him from the church?

Quote

But the fearful, and the unbelievingand the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Those who reject Jesus own words, are counted among those who are unbeliving, there are christians (they claim to be anyhow,) and yet reject Jesus own words concerning eternal life of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

Those who reject that eternal life is not the present state while claiming Jesus as savior, are really unbelievers, they are deceived. Believers in Jesus, know and believe that they have eternal life, in Him, and it is based on what He did, at Calvary, not on their own performance.

Those who reject Jesus' own words are counted as unbelievers, yes agreed.

Quote

This is the reason why I down play the need to keep the commandments, I say let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

I see why you would say this, being that you believe that the ONLY thing we have to do is accept what he did on Calvary, nothing more.

Quote

I have read it, but you'll notice that the word 'if' is used again and again. Thing is, you never consider what the other side of the 'if' is.

Quote

I'm not reading into it at all, I'm seeing what it's saying and accepting it. Difference is, you don't think that once we become slaves to Christ we can't decide to turn and become slaves to sin again.

Quote

Well, how many sins, must one commit to be judged to an
eternaty in Hell??

It only takes one sin.

Your hypothetical just won't fly.

Agreed, it only takes one. But God judges the heart.

Continued.....

Quote from: Petro on March 30, 2004, 04:13:50 AM

You teach someone that doctrine and they'll think they can use God's grace as a means to do what they want, because the only consequence of sinning means a falling out of fellowship and not losing their salvation. With that kind of thinking, why would they receive Christ with fear and trembling?

Quote

Now there is another spin to this that bronzesanke brought up at the end, of our conversation, and that is a person can be deceived into believing he is saved, and that deception comes about by the person believes that through keeping Gods Commandments he can be saved.

This position is unbiblical... one cannot be saved by keeping the commandments, because the commandments were never given for that purpose, they were given to men, that they
might examine themselves to see if they had sinned against God.

You said yourself that those who reject the teachings of Jesus are as unbelievers, so if you're not obeying what God commanded then you are an unbeliever.

Quote

Are you telling me you've never thought about doing something that was against God's will after you accepted Christ, and did it? If you haven't then you're one increadibly remarkable person. But if you have, then by your own definition you're not saved, because your aforethought sin marked you as an unbeliever.

Quote

The key word is deliberate; in your hypothetical is what makes this teaching unbiblical.

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

Quote

You keep quoting this OT scripture, as though it is relevant.

So nothing in the OT is relevant? So we can toss the Ten Commandments out the window? So was OT scripture Jesus used to answer Satan not relevant, or anything from the OT for that matter?

Quote

I disagree with your undestanding of this, it is clear to me you have work to do, on what the scriptures really teach concerning this.

I know you disagree, because to you just accepting the free gift is all you need to do. Point being, if it were that simple and nothing more, there's going to be a lot of people going to heaven which is why I stated that scripture because it doesn't support that doctrine. Peter says that it's hard for the righteous to be saved, yet you make it so easy. Sorry, but I'll believe what Peter says.

Quote

How long have you been studying scripture, anyhow??

Long enough to know the Spirit behind it.

God bless

Quote

Heya Newborn! I love questions man! Unless they're from my 6 year old and consist mainly of "Why?" ;D

Hi Allinall, my little girl is only 1 so I'm not getting the 'why' questions yet. Though she does say 'no' pretty good because she hears it a lot. :D

Quote

We do no such conformation brother! The work is God's:

Quote

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13

I think you meant Phl 2:12. But just before that he states in vs 12.. "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"
But we need to be willing to let God work in us, so we take part in the conforming.

Quote

Amen! I totally agree. And as you stated, it's by us obeying that allows the conforming to happen.

Quote

If not...we are not conformed, we fight the working of sanctification in our daily lives, and we effectively "bushel our candle." Why must we do beyond accepting Him? Because He has commanded us to do so, and to be "doers of the word." It is through our obedience that God changes us.

Amen again!

Quote

Why obey? Because we love Him:

Quote

Amen, amen!

Quote

Why take up our cross? Because we must die to ourselves in order for Him to live through us:

Quote

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 9:23

...and...

Quote

Not only for Him to live through us, but for us to be effectively conformed to that image.

...CONTINUED

Quote

Amen!

Continued....

Allinall said

...STILL GOING...

Done? Good! Now you see my point! Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation. We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it. We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us. In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him. And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet. We possess only the blessed blood that saved us. We are the servant that took the talent and buried it. We've gained nothing. But, "...he himself will be saved."

We are the servant that took the talent and buried it. We've gained nothing. But, "...he himself will be saved."

Back to the bible please ;)

Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Saved is he??

I think it may be time to rethink some of this ;)

God bless

Quote

See answer from AJ ;)

Quote

So the consequence of sin is broken fellowship only and not a broken relationship? Again it brings me back to the question of is it okay to sin then because all we'll lose is fellowship and not relationship?

Quote

I would contend brother that God made everything, us included, for His glory:

Quote

everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43:7

...and...

Quote

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11

What was the glory and pleasure?

Quote

Our salvation, our conformation, our very lives are for His glory. :)

Agreed, and Amen. But see question above.

Quote

Nope! It will be filled with people who do. Here's a question you haven't considered for your position. How do we know we love God?

You said you know I've addressed this, but I will answer this again.
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." 1 Jhn 2:3
"But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 Jhn 2:5-6
"Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." 1 Jhn 3:24
"This is love for God: to obey his commands." 1 Jhn 5:3
"If you love me, you will obey what I command." Jhn 14:15
"Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching." Jhn 14:23
"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." Jhn 14:24

If you love God in your heart, you will desire to do what he commands. Notice there is a theme with those scriptures which is 'know', 'love', and 'obey'.

Quote

And everytime we fail to obey, do we then fall away and lose our salvation because we don't love Him? Where's the line? I do know that you've addressed this, I'm just asking where the line of stubbling becomes a falling in your eyes.

It is not my eyes, and I am not the judge of man. God judges the heart, and he will decide when that line is because he is God, not me. All I know is that the scriptures teach that it is possible to lose your salvation that we must continue to work out, and it is also possible to know that we're in his love and doing his will from the few scriptures above.

Quote

Not talking reconciling brother. That's a done deal. I'm talking about being perfected and sanctified. What does that mean?

But notice it says 'being' perfected and sanctified, meaning it's not complete. It's a process of being made holy, resulting in eternal life.

Take care, and God bless.

Quote

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And we know without a doubt, because of the plethora of verses stating verbatim that you can lose your salvation (as opposed to the plethora of verses that do state verbatim that you cannot) that that which was taken away from this servant was, in fact, his salvation. Hmmmmm...

Quote

I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown

Revelations 3:11

He was given a "crown" but did nothing with it but bury it. That was taken away from him. Conjecture, I know. But it holds more weight than a doctrine, my friends, not supported by scripture as a whole.

Quote

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Definitely Hell. Absolutely. Unless...

Quote

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

...it isn't Hellfire he suffers. But the burning of his worthless, selfish fruits here, "though he himself will be saved."
Where's the explanation of this one? :) I hope I don't sound upset or argumentative. I'm not, and I am discussing this with good natured love my friends.

Quote

Saved is he??

I think it may be time to rethink some of this

Saved he is!!

I think it may be time to rethink some of this. :)

BTW, before I forget...yup! I did mean Philippians 2:12! Thanks for catching my faulty old memory! :D

Quote

The problem here my friend, is that you believe there to be a need for a judgment, rather than a consequence for your sin now. And guess what? There was a judgment. Jesus took it all upon Himself. You would agree. But you do not believe that to be a sufficient act, as you must do your part to maintain what He perfected. Is it ok to sin? Listen to Paul's very answer to that very question in two different passages:

Quote

"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:12

All things. Not some things. Not all things but those things denounced in the Law. All. Everything. So, we can then sin to our hearts content right?

Quote

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:1-2

We do not live in sinful practice as we've been freed from sin's penalty of death by Jesus sufficient sacrifice. We are being freed from sin's power through our obedient response to the working of the Holy Spirit, via the word of God in our lives.

My friend, truly, this doesn't hurt me that you don't believe this doctrine. I mean really! You are striving to maintain that which was bought and paid for in full, for all time, for you... by doing what? Obeying God and growing closer to Him. And how exactly is that bad? :) The part that saddens me is that you, and those like you, live in fear. You may argue that, but it's true. You must "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling as you believe you may lose God's gift, when the working spoken of there isn't for security, but sanctification. It's yours. Work it dog! Ok. That's my paraphrase, but you see my point. :D So why then the fear and trembling? "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." If we neglect so great a salvation, we neglect the blessed sanctification granted us in the here and now. And any "talent" we've been given, we lose..."though (we ourselves) are saved." What's more, you live oblivious to the reality of a "joy unspeakable and full of glory." It's hard to have joy in what can be forsaken and lost. It's hard to have joy when you spend you time fearing the potential failure you may succumb to.

Quote

Take care, and God bless.

You too bro! :)

Quote

Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Definitely Hell. Absolutely. Unless...

With this verse, there is no 'unless'.

Quote

...it isn't Hellfire he suffers. But the burning of his worthless, selfish fruits here, "though he himself will be saved."
Where's the explanation of this one? :)

Quote

Doesn't this mean works that were done of ourselves, verses those done for the glory of God and the rewards that will be given for both? Those that were done of ourselves will mean nothing and will be burned up and no rewards will be given for those. The works that were done for the glory of God will be rewarded.

Quote

I hope I don't sound upset or argumentative. I'm not, and I am discussing this with good natured love my friends.

I didn't think so at all, and because you don't get upset it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you. :)

Quote

Saved he is!!

I disagree, because the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.", is Hell. And this was a 'servant', believers are servants of Christ so this is talking about a believer who did nothing that his Master commanded, thus he was thrown into darkness.

Quote

I think it may be time to rethink some of this. :)

I agree.

God bless

Quote

Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Definitely Hell. Absolutely. Unless...

With this verse, there is no 'unless'.

Nope! There isn't! There's also no verbatim statement that this is in reference to losing salvation. There is inference. And that doesn't match up with the remainder of scripture. The unless, BTW, was to denote that your interpretation, I believe, is wrong. You have to add that thought. It doesn't state that.

Quote

Yes! But the point is that it is the works that are burned. Not the worker. If the worker works to himself, and doesn't obey God, his works will burn..."though he himself will be saved." I know I keep pushing that last part, but that last part keeps getting pushed away. :)

Quote

I didn't think so at all, and because you don't get upset it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you.

Seeeeee? Speaking the truth in love! I'm speaking truth lovingly and you're responding falsely...BUT IN LOVE!!! *L* Sorry. Had to say it! :D

Quote

Gotta ask this: and where does it say that it is Hell? Verbatim. Because, my friend, if it doesn't, it's interpretation. And that interpretation...get ready, cause here comes another repeated statement I like... ;D ...doesn't agree with the remainder of the scriptures.

Go. Think amongst yourself. Ok. Works better if there's a group of ya, but you get the idea. :D

Quote

BTW, before I forget...yup! I did mean Philippians 2:12! Thanks for catching my faulty old memory! :D

Not a problem. ;)

Quote

"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:12

All things. Not some things. Not all things but those things denounced in the Law. All. Everything. So, we can then sin to our hearts content right?

Quote

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:1-2

Quote

Jesus' act on the cross was and is sufficient. What I believe the scriptures to teach is that there are circumstances that can evolve that is resulting in the lose of one's salvation.

Quote

My friend, truly, this doesn't hurt me that you don't believe this doctrine. I mean really! You are striving to maintain that which was bought and paid for in full, for all time, for you... by doing what? Obeying God and growing closer to Him. And how exactly is that bad? :)

I'm striving to do what he commanded us to do to the best of my ability, which is all he asks.

Quote

The part that saddens me is that you, and those like you, live in fear. You may argue that, but it's true.

I don't live in fear when it comes to salvation, because in this discussion I have not had much opportunity to talk about God's grace and mercy. I've mentioned it a few times in past posts, but I will mention it again here and it goes back to the distinction I was making. I am a believer and yet will stumble here and there, but my hearts desire is to do what God commanded and strive for perfection. Knowing that I'm not perfect, I don't live in fear of losing my salvation when I stumble, because God's grace and mercy run deep for those whose hearts remain with him. Any fear I have is his discipline for when I do stumble, because I know his discipline won't be fun, but it's out of love. :)

Quote

You must "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling as you believe you may lose God's gift, when the working spoken of there isn't for security, but sanctification. It's yours. Work it dog! Ok. That's my paraphrase, but you see my point. :D So why then the fear and trembling? "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." If we neglect so great a salvation, we neglect the blessed sanctification granted us in the here and now.

Again, being perfected and sanctified is a process, not completed here and now.

Quote

And any "talent" we've been given, we lose..."though (we ourselves) are saved."

You are combining two different scriptures that are not talking about the same thing. One is a 'servant' who is thrown into utter darkness where there will be wheeping and knashing of teeth. The other is our works and the rewards that will be given.

Quote

What's more, you live oblivious to the reality of a "joy unspeakable and full of glory." It's hard to have joy in what can be forsaken and lost. It's hard to have joy when you spend you time fearing the potential failure you may succumb to.

Again, as of my answer above, there is no fear of failure when I have a willing spirit even though I know I won't be perfect. My joy is in knowing his grace and mercy covers me all the days of my life, as I strive for perfection and obey his commands to the best of my ability and remain in his love. Anyone who understands this will see that there is no need for fear, and there is much joy in being in the Father's love.
But what saddens me about the doctrine of once saved always saved, is that it can be taken as there are no consequences for sins, thus lead people to continue their way and not have to feel like they have to be obedient. What fruit would they bare? What kind of witness would they be? What kind of relationship would they have with God?

Again, as I stated way back in one of my first posts on this thread, is I do believe in eternal security for those whose hearts remain with God. We've discussed this, and we know where each other stands. Is there much more to discuss?

God bless.

Quote

Yes there is joy my friend! But the unspeakable joy is found in understanding the unmerited depth of that love. :)

Quote

But what saddens me about the doctrine of once saved always saved, is that it can be taken as there are no consequences for sins, thus lead people to continue their way and not have to feel like they have to be obedient. What fruit would they bare? What kind of witness would they be? What kind of relationship would they have with God?

Can be. That is why Paul warns us not to. I know many who hold to the Calvinistic predestination as their personal license to sin! But that's not me. You and I live obedient (as best we can) lives following Christ, with a desire to know Him more and more each day. You live with a belief that if your heart goes astray, that you can lose what He has given you, but won't so long as you keep your heart for God.

I live with the belief that if my heart goes astray, like the Great Shepherd He is, He will find me, and if need be, break me, hold me, teach me, love me, nuture me, and free me from the sinful mind that lead me to stray in the first place, by renewing my mind with His word. If I live knowing He's my Shepherd...why would I willingly live in sin because I have fire insurance? I wouldn't. Rather, I live with a desire to hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" from He Who bought me with His life's blood, paying for my sin and offering that payment to me, an undeserving sinner. When my works are tried with fire, I want His to remain. I want there to be His works to remain. And I know, as sure as I know Whom I have believed, that when I stand in tears for the lack of what I could have accomplished in life had I died to myselfish desires, that it will be He Who wipes those tears away. Not because I'm crying for a hard life here, but because of the failures that I've had here. That's my God. That's the God the bible teaches us about throughout. That's the God that in the passages interpreted as being judgmental for sins already paid for, is misunderstood. And yes, that's the God Who inspite of such misunderstandings and many, many others that we all have, loves us, nurtures us, holds us, breaks and builds us as we obey Him. That, is what I know of my God. That's the relationship I have with my God. :)

Quote

Again, as I stated way back in one of my first posts on this thread, is I do believe in eternal security for those whose hearts remain with God. We've discussed this, and we know where each other stands. Is there much more to discuss?

I'd question the heart thing brother, but we've beat this dead horse a few times too many. :D And yes. There's always more to discuss...just perhaps elsewhere.

Christ's,

Kevin

Quote

Nope! There isn't! There's also no verbatim statement that this is in reference to losing salvation. There is inference. And that doesn't match up with the remainder of scripture.

It matches pefectly with the correct interpretation, of which you do not have my friend.

Quote

In our life we will do works that are of ourselves, and those that are for the glory of God. Those done for the glory of God will receive rewards. Those we do of ourselves will be burned away but we will be saved.

Quote

Seeeeee? Speaking the truth in love! I'm speaking truth lovingly and you're responding falsely...BUT IN LOVE!!! *L* Sorry. Had to say it! :D

As I feel the same way about you. ;)

Quote

You're joking right? There are numerous passages spoken by Jesus himself, where he's talking about the kingdom of heaven, and then those who will be thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth. Besides, Jesus will be our light, so if we're in darkness, is that heaven? Will there be weeping and knashing of teeth in heaven? Come on, this is milk! If you would like me to list the scriptures, I will do so for you. Let me know brother.

God bless

Quote

Yes there is joy my friend! But the unspeakable joy is found in understanding the unmerited depth of that love. :)

And that I grasp more and more each day, though you don't think I do which is okay.

Quote

Amen to this brother. But I must say, we must be willing in order for that to happen, he won't force us.

Quote

Yup. There are. So either Jesus taught opposite of the Law, and the remainder of the New Testament, or the Law and the New Testament taught differently from Jesus. Sound confusing? It should! Because the bible doesn't teach this doctrine. We come to these passages and misunderstand them because we do not understand what Jesus did on the cross. Yup! This is milk! "Jesus died on the cross for my sins" doesn't get any milkier! It's the message of God's love and grace that a lost and dying sinner can understand by it's simplicity. But that death was by no means simple. It's the depth of that death, burial and resurrection that teaches us the finality and security that that salvation provides. As for the passages my friend, I do know them. I also know that Jesus isn't teaching what you think He is.

Would you like me to show you those depths? Otherwise, we'll move on to more edifying things...like what that love prompts us to do.

If there is a place in heaven where there is darkness, with weeping and knashing of teeth, please provide such passages. NOWHERE in the bible does it describe such a place. And a servant can be thrown into it with reason stated. Thus the doctrine is complete. But I will wait for you to find me those scriptures that speak of this place in heaven that is in darkness with weeping and knashing of teeth........

Quote

I'd question the heart thing brother, but we've beat this dead horse a few times too many. :D And yes. There's always more to discuss...just perhaps elsewhere.

Yes we have, and it is clear that we don't agree with each other. That's fine. May God bless you on this journey through life, and guide your footsteps.

God bless.

Quote

everyday newborn reply #70

You teach someone that doctrine and they'll think they can use God's grace as a means to do what they want,

everyday newborn,

You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.

Quote

because the only consequence of sinning means a falling out of fellowship and not losing their salvation.

You said, you were not talking about sinning and losing your salvation!............which is it??

Are you, or are you not speaking of, a Christian being able to lose slavation by sinning??

You are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me, you are not very honest, about what you are saying one moment and then cliaming what falling out of fellowship means, the next................which is it??

What are you really talking about?? You sound confused..........................?

Quote

With that kind of thinking, why would they receive Christ with fear and trembling?

The unsaved will definitely perish if they do not come to Christ by faith in Gods Word, which He has spoken, JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND is that Prophet of Deut 18:15-19.

Those who are saved, ..........I give unto them eternal life; and they shall will never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one. (Jhn 10:28-30)

Quote

You said yourself that those who reject the teachings of Jesus are as unbelievers,

Can you say that you, believe Jesus own Words at John 10:28-30??

Clearly in furthering the doctrine you embrace, you don't..believe Him.

If you say you do, How so?

He says, at;

Jhn 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And again,

Jhn 6
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is not something that happens at the end, it is reality to all who believe Him while in the flesh walking the earth, that is why Paul said;

Jhn 11
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

He even asks you; Believest thou this?

Quote

so if you're not obeying what God commanded then you are an unbeliever.

You do not understand this verse this is why you ask such a question...if you underdstood the verser, you woul;dn't ask it... because of sin there can be no fellowship, however God does not disown his adopted children, because they have sinned.

For those that do not they have eternal life in Christ Jesus, the practice of disobedience as a matter of course, could very well be evidence they are unbelievers, and never really were saved, it is called self deception, It is not enough, to believe I know God, the question one should ask Himself, does Jesus Know me.

2 Tim 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Quote

Praise God, I trust in Jesus own blood who covers all of my sins, and not in my own abilities to keep the commandments perfectly, which I never could before I was saved, not to mention I had no interest in them to begin with. The word of God assures me, I was made perfect in Jesus even while dead in sin and tresspass, even the Faith I possess was given to me, by Gods Grace.

I suppose you would claim, you conjured up your saving faith??

Quote

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

I am saying the scriptures make it plain to me, that:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........

Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.

I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.

Quote

So nothing in the OT is relevant?

I never said that, did I??

The OT, has been abolished, I guess I assumed you knew this, that will teach me, to assume things, when pointing out things like this..

The reason why the OT has been abolished, is because Jesus the Testator of the New Testament has died, it is a fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

One can learn certain principles which are still relevant from the OT, buit we are not under the OT, for instance at the passage you quote, the sons shall not perish for the sins of their fathers but will perish for their own sins.

Quote

So we can toss the Ten Commandments out the window?

The 10 Commandments still serve their same purpose.

These Commandments, were never given, that by keeping them perfectly any flesh could ever be justified before God, they were simply given to be used to determine whether anyone had sinned against God, this is the only reason for the Law of Commandments, they are as a schoolmaster to bring man to Christ by FAITH, and when FAITH comes, that man (who comes to FAITH) is no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)

cont'd..................

The law cannot kill the soul, because if a child of God sins, he is no longer judged by that Law, children of God are not under the Law of Commandments, but under the Law of Grace.

You simply need to study this, to understand it.

Quote

So was OT scripture Jesus used to answer Satan not relevant, or anything from the OT for that matter?

The law gives us knowledge of Gods will, as I said before, no one will be saved by obedience to it. Obedience to it will produce Faith in Jesus, if left to do its work.

Quote

I know you disagree, because to you just accepting the free gift is all you need to do.

Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.

On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.

The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.

How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??

Quote

Point being, if it were that simple and nothing more, there's going to be a lot of people going to heaven which is why I stated that scripture because it doesn't support that doctrine.

Is this the reason why you reject the doctrine of "eternal security" based on Faith alone??

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,?????

I guess you must think you are god them............huh??

Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.

Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God. Come on be honest..............

Quote

Peter says that it's hard for the righteous to be saved, yet you make it so easy. Sorry, but I'll believe what Peter says.

So what does this prove??..................nothing.

Here is the Greek-English Interlinear NT version;
1 Pet 4
18 And if the righteous with difficulty is saved, the ungodly and sinner where shall appear?

This verse simply proves the "eternal security" position , and that is, that, inspite of many sins, those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, will be saved, inspite of themselves.

Rom 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't, however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters. Seeing He is God..

Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.

But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God. It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.

Quote

Long enough to know the Spirit behind it.

God bless

Quote

Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.

Blessings,

Petro

Quote

You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.

I have which is why I asked the questions I did, because it's not okay to sin.

Quote

I was making a point by using what Allinall said, there was no contradiction.
He was saying the only consequence of sin is falling out of fellowship with God, not losing salvation. I asked how a person could not have fellowship with God yet still be saved? It is clear that the scriptures teach that when you are doing God's will and living a life that is pleasing to him, a result of that is you have fellowship, and Jesus' blood covers you. They are all as one, not seperate. Take for example 1 Jhn 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Again it says "if" we walk.......So on the flip side of that I continue to keep all three, should you choose not to walk in the light, then you won't have fellowship, and the blood of Jesus will not cover you, but you say it still would.

Quote

I do believe him, cause in vs. 27 he is speaking about those that follow him.

Quote

I can accept a statement to this degree:
If a person comes to know Christ but still continues to hold on to sin knowing what Christ says about sin, then yes I'd question whether that person really was saved to begin with because of their knowledge of it. In this situation, I'd agree with your statement. However, there is other possible situations such as a person not knowing what Christ says about something, though they believe in God and accept him. Then something happens and then that person decides not to follow Jesus, to say that the person never believed, was not sincere in their desire to follow Christ, was never saved (because they didn't fully understand) I don't agree with.

Quote

If by saving faith you mean having the faith to believe in him and accept him, yes that was my faith because it was my choice to choose him or not. Did he give you the faith to believe in him? If so then there is no free will.

Quote

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

Quote

No I wouldn't actually. The difference between you and I is the free will involved.

Quote

Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.

I never said I believed you hated me, again that is another incorrect assumption on your part. Honestly Petro, this has been a pattern for you to do and it really needs to stop.

Quote

I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.

Said the kettle to the pot.

Quote

Ezekiel 33 that I quoted was a principle which is still relevent from the OT, which you stated one can still learn.

Quote

Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness. So if you're not saying no, are you under Grace? Study and understand that my friend. ;)

Quote

Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.

Faith initially yes. But I'm talking about throughout your life. What happened to the servant who buried his talent?

Quote

On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.

First of all IF one could keep the law perfectly yes it would make God's grace unnecessary. However being that the case is one could NEVER keep the law perfectly, there will always be a need for God's grace. But that doesn't mean we should be lazy in trying to keep the law, because the law not only shows us that we are sinners, but what kind of life God want's us to live. I do not try to keep the law so that I may not need God's grace or boast, I try to keep the law (Jesus' commands) so that I may live the life that is pleasing to him. As Paul says, we must aim for perfection.

Quote

The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.

You misunderstand what I have said.

Quote

How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??

Let me give you an illustration, and it will demonstrate the power of both sin and God's grace.
Say there were 100 commands. You keep 99 of them, but the one you decide you're going to continue in even though you know what Jesus said in the command.
Take the same 100 commands. You keep only 1, the other 99 you continue to do. But you do so because you are weak in your flesh, you know they are wrong and you try as best as you can to not do these things and ask God to deliver you from them.
Which of these persons would be saved? I tell you the latter, because their heart was willing though his flesh was weak.

Quote

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,?????

I wish everyone could be saved, unfortunately that's not going to happen.

Quote

I guess you must think you are god them............huh??

Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff, you obviously conjured up these lies in your own mind and there is nothing I could do or say to change your mind. But I'll say it anyhow, God is God, I am not.

Quote

Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.

I believe only what God says, and I take the bible as whole not in sections.

Quote

Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God. Come on be honest..............

Again, this is another of your false assumptions of which continue to show me your true colors.

Quote

You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't, however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters. Seeing He is God..

I believe both of them, in all their scriptures.

Quote

Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.

Amen to having God's grace to cover us when we stumble, but we need to make the effort and have the willingness to keep God's commands, he does the rest.

Quote

But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God. It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.

A big AMEN to that! :)

Quote

Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.

It is more and more each day.

God bless

Quote

The answer to the question is, none of us know!
Only GOD knows the heart. We can't argue issues of the heart. We only know what we see! We look for Fruit of the Spirit and other things the Word says is consistant with christian behavior, but only GOD truly knows.

The only persons salvation we can be sure of is our own.

This discussion does come down to issues of the heart." If we confess with our mouth and believe in our Heart then...". But which one can truly say? All we know is what it told to us and what we see. Also remember bevavior is learned and can be imitated. So what do we really know?

We can't determination a persons salvation soley on what we see, bacause thier salvation is determined by what GOD sees.
And what GOD sees is us covered in the blood of the Lamb!

AMEN!!!!
Which is exactly the point I have been making in all of my posts, that it comes down to the attitude of the heart. But the problem I have with the once saved always saved is people say that the attitude of the heart can't change, which I don't agree with. The ONLY way a person could lose their salvation is if they change the attitude of their heart and become hardened towards God. I say that about people who know what they're doing. And to say one who turns away was never saved, I ask how did they know that person's heart? How do they know that they never were sincere or truly wanted to devote their lives to God. Unforseen things happen that could change a person's mind. As well as on the flip side, how do we know someone who's following God truly is sincere, so it does work both ways. And I agree the only person we could know for sure is ourselves.

Quote

All that are CHRIST'S are in his hand, of which he has lost NONE!

Yes, and those that follow him shall have eternal life. Amen........

God bless

everyday newborn,

Quote

So you do admit, you conjured up saving faith.

This my friend is the error....man always confesses with his mouth what he believes in his heart.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

As someone has said, God who knows the heart, will sort this out at a future date, since you believed, it is clear why, you have this desire to continue doing (keeping commandments or doing good works), lest you lose what you obatined by your doing.

The flesh profiteth nothing, it is the spirit that giveth life.

..........it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Quote

petro said;
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........
everyday answered;

Quote

everyday replied;
No I wouldn't actually. The difference between you and I is the free will involved.

Well this then is the difference between day and night, unfortunately dead men do not possess free will, maybe you really were not that dead spiritually ..............huh??

Somehow you equate physical life with spiritual life, this is false.....perhaps if you considered what scripture says, you might come to a biblical understanding of this matter.

And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I assume you know these verses I have given you.

Concenring John 10:27-30, you said;

Quote

I do believe him, cause in vs. 27 he is speaking about those that follow him.

It sounds to me as thou you believe others above Jesus, own words, believing Him, only when it is convenient.

Blessings,
Petro

ChristiansUnite Forums

Theology => Bible Study => Topic started by: Ambassador4Christ on February 21, 2004, 04:50:59 PM