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Author Topic: Eternal Security Of The Believer  (Read 12130 times)
Pilgrim
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2004, 06:34:48 PM »

Continued

Did the Lord perfect forever those that are sanctified or in some cases only temporary?  

Rev. 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever . Amen”

If salvation is not forever then is the Lord’s glory and dominion for ever and ever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

If salvation is not forever then is the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”

If salvation is not forever then is the everlasting punishment of unbelievers forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?


2 Thes. 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Jude 1:13 “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
 
Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal  damnation:”

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Forever
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Eternal life, Everlasting
166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Dwelleth
3306 meno {men'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:574,581; v
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
1) to remain, abide
1a) in reference to place
1a1) to sojourn, tarry
1a2) not to depart
1a2a) to continue to be present
1a2b) to be held, kept, continually
1b) in reference to time
1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b1a) of persons, to survive, live
1c) in reference to state or condition
1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Everlasting
126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Perish
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose    

that never shall be quenched
BDB/Thayers # 762
762 asbestos as'-bes-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj
AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4
1) unquenched, unquenchable
1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
Another explanation which I believe is the correct one is that the writer of Hebrews is using a hypothetical situation to make a point. This is the only explanation that I am aware of the does not violate other Scriptures. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that some are turning back to the Old Covenant ways so he sets out to prove how foolish this is in light of how much better the New Covenant is. His argument would amount to something like this for Hebrews 6:4-6 (the verses at the top of this post).

If it were possible for someone who is truly saved (verses 4-5) to fall away and abandon the salvation he has received by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus (verse 6). It would be impossible for him to be renewed to repentance (salvation) because in order for him to be renewed he would have to crucify the Son of God again, and put him to an open shame which will never happen (verse 6). The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

I believe this explains Hebrews 10 as well.

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.

Saint Pilgrim
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 06:35:31 PM by Pilgrim » Logged

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Petro
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2004, 10:40:44 PM »

Now Petro, the scripture you were referring to about it being impossible to be brought back to repentance.  That is in Hebrews 6, and let me know if you disagree.  Again, I truly value your thoughts.

Here we have a person who is considered a believer, judging by the description.  Then they fall away, so I look at what happened.  Again like in my previous reply (part 1 if you will <laugh>), what I see here is there was a change in their attitude, and for whatever reason they have chosen to reject God in some manner.  What that manner is it does not say in detail, but falling away I see as a rejection to the knowledge and experience they had in Christ.  In doing so, they are saying that Jesus is not good enough, and to their loss they no longer have the blood of Christ to cover them.  They had to harden their heart to the truth they once knew, thus it would seem impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.  I say 'it would seem' because I do not take that literally.  I refuse to believe God wouldn't ever forgive someone, or accept someone's repentance.  After all, that is what God is, forgivness, so to take that scripture literally would be God rejecting himself.  Therefore it being impossible to be brought back to repentance is not from God's view, but the view of the sinner to change their ways.

Another example of the point I'm trying to make is a little further down in Hebrews 10:26-31.  Again we see someone who is 'deliberatly' sinning, again there's a change in their attitude towards God that must take place in order for that to happen.  And if they cast aside the blood of Jesus, the holy santification that once saved him, what other sacrifice is there that can bring him back into fellowship with God?  God said that no one comes to him except through Jesus.  So if a believer decides to sin deliberatly they nullify the blood that covers him, and there is nothing left that can save him.  So what awaits such a person?  A fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.  Notice how now the person has become an 'enemy' of God.

Please let me know what you think about this.  Please give it some thought and prayer.  I look forward to hearing from you.


everyday newborn,

Before I answer your question, allow me to ask you two questions?

What percentage of Work did God play in your Salvation .....??

What percentage of Work did you play in your Salvation??




You agreed with everything that was said, according to your previous response.

On the other hand from your post to me it sounds as though you may not have.

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2004, 07:29:10 AM »

Amen Petro, thanks

 Woe to me wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ will.    Paul2

Amen Paul 2

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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2004, 11:24:07 AM »

      Perhaps you have lived a clean life. Not all of us have.

       Picture someone who was a great sinner before accepting Christ. Consider the person has habits and addictions. Picture someone who has smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 25 years. Someone who knows all about the dangers of smoking but is so addicted they just can't stop. Say they accept Jesus, but continue to smoke even though they know it is harmful and wrong. Could they even become a believer if they smoke? How long do they have before they must quit before their Salvation is lost, for they know what their doing is wrong but haven't been able to quit yet?

    Thats just one example. Before repentance their must be belief. Repentance is impossible without the Holy Spirit leading one to repent.

    I lived a sinful life. I'm not perfect. I'm not proud of my sins but I still sin and cofess it but I'm still a willful sinner at times. But I'm being really honest about it. I don't know if I've ever been sin free in my life. Theres always something I'm not doing right, for the good we ought to do and don't is sin as I see it.

    To me you seem like some super Christian if you can pass the standard you have set. You must never ever lie because that would be willfully sinning. You might be the first person I've evr met that never willfully sins. You can't have it both ways, Grace and Works, its either perfect Grace or perfect works. I'd never make it if works are involved in any way. I'm a sinner. Woe to me wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ will.

                                                           Paul2

I have never lived a clean life, nor have I ever claimed to have.  I never claimed to be a super Christian, but if that's all that you got out of what I said, then I'm sorry that you misunderstand.  But I will try this again.......

We (meaning you and I and everyone on this earth), have sinned, and always will sin as long as we live on this earth (this means even AFTER we accept Christ).  We are imperfect, we know that and God knows that.  Now, the difference I'm making is between someone who's heart remains with God as the full authority and wants to do his will, and someone who's heart becomes corrupt at some point and God is no longer the full authority and maybe only wants to do partly God's will.

Now using your own example, hopefully I can make this more clear.  So we have someone who smokes a lot before they accept Christ.  After they accept Christ, they still continue to smoke.  So far this fits into both definitions I stated above.  Now lets look into it deeper, you said the person gets convicted by the Holy Spirit that he should quit because it's bad for him.  Now please read this carefully because this is where it has been missed the last two tries.  If the person's heart and attitude remain that Jesus is the authority and the truth, but fails at his attempts to stop smoking, God's grace will cover him.  Why, because God knows he wants to do the right thing, but also understands that we are human and imperfect.  Judging from that, I would assume this person has tried to quit smoking, or cut back, or make some sort of effort to quit.  The person wasn't perfect before he had Christ in his life, and he still isn't perfect after, but was desiring and willing to do God's will.  Now, if the person becomes knowledgable that it is wrong, gets convicted, yet decides that he isn't going to listen to God, and justifies it, what place does that person have in the kingdom of God?  They are saying that they are only going to obey God where ever they please, therefore Jesus is NOT the full authority in their life.  Now this is someone who knows what they are doing, and continues to do so deliberatly.  There is a problem that runs deep within this person that has no place in God's kingdom.  If a person is willing to give up smoking and tries even though he fails, that willing spirit is what God wants.  I believe that person eventually will quit because the person is willing, and God will deliver him.  But if the person is not willing, God will not force him.  As the scripture you so stated, who will deliver me from these things?  Thanks be to Jesus.

Do you see a difference between the two examples?  Because if a person says no to God in one area, I'm sure there will be other areas that will follow.  Their heart is not pure, their attitude is not right, they are not humble before God.  

Again, please let me know if the difference is not clear.  I hope you don't think that I believe you lose your salvation at the drop of a hat.  I believe the scriptures teach that the lost of salvation can happen.  Consider Ezekiel 33:12-20, and tell me what you think that passage is saying.

Thank you again for your response.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2004, 11:47:43 AM »

Pilgrim-

I think I see where we differ in our views.  You believe that once we accept Christ we gain our salavation and it is final, nothing can change that.  You say that words like 'forever' and 'eternal' mean just as they are in effect the second you accept Christ.  I see those as having their final effect when we stand before him, the are the promise of things to come.  There eternal is eternal, and forever is forever.  Because if they were in effect the moment we asked Christ into our hearts, then why would Jesus tell us to remain in him?  With your view, I can not see John 15:1-12 as being truth.  With your view, please explain the use of the words 'if', 'in me', and 'remain'.  Also consider Ezekiel 33: 14-20, please give me your view on that scripture as well.  

I look forward to hearing from you.  God bless.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Everyday Newborn
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2004, 11:55:44 AM »

everyday newborn,

Before I answer your question, allow me to ask you two questions?

What percentage of Work did God play in your Salvation .....??

What percentage of Work did you play in your Salvation??




You agreed with everything that was said, according to your previous response.

On the other hand from your post to me it sounds as though you may not have.

Blessings,

Petro

Quote

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'Work'.

I stated what I agreed with, and continued on with what I didn't agree with.  I hope that clears up any contradiction.

God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
The Crusader
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2004, 09:26:28 AM »

The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

 Was posted by Petro, and I must agree, AMEN!

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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2004, 01:08:58 PM »

The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

 Was posted by Petro, and I must agree, AMEN!

<Smiley))><

Do you believe that I think there is another salvation outside of the sacrifice of our Lord?  If so, please explain.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Ezekiel 33:12-20, and John 15:5-10?
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Petro
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2004, 01:43:15 AM »

everyday newborn,

You skirted my question...

You understand perfectly what I have asked you...

If Your salvation is based on something you did, or claim to have done, then Gods work is not 100 %.

If Gods salvation is not 100% His work in you, then this is why you can never be assured of "eternal security", because that security is in something you must do, to keep it, and you know eventually you won't do.........and lose your gift..

This is why you ask the question, you do...

Ezekiel 33, is written to the Jews who were under the OT Law of Moses, the Covenant has been abolished even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, by Jesus in his flesh. (Eph 2:15)

John 15:5-10, is not a difficult passage, the key is knowing something about the vine and the vinedresser of the vine of which He (Jesus) is speaking of.

I say read the passage very carefully, then visualize what is being said, using mental imagery, this is what helped me understand this passage of scripture, it is not a tough one to understand, of course one must possess the Holy Spirit and pray for understanding.

I will give you some key things which will help you to get started.

The passage Jesus is speaking of is actually Jhn 15:1-6.

The vine being referred to herein is a creeping climbing plant that produces melons, cucumbers, or grapes which I am sure people in that day, He spoke these words were familiar with.

The vine in view herein is probably the Grape vine, because the branchs burn.......

And here, He referred to himself as the vine (the Plant itself), symbolically in the OT, the vine refferred to Israel.

Ok, this is what you need to understand,  Jesus referres to
himself as the Vine, and His Father as the Vinedresser (vs 1),  
His Father prunes, tends and cares for the wellbeing of the Vine, every branch which does not bare fruit He takes away, the branch that bares fruit He prunes, so that it might bare more fruit (vs 2), you need to examine what this might mean, but consider this in the light of what happens to the branches which produce much fruit, after the fruit is removed, and the branch withers and dies, He (the Vinedresser) takes them away also, as part of the care and maintenance of the vine.

What might this mean??

At verse 3, He makes it clear that everyone who is washed by the word (Titus 3:5-7) is cleansed or clean (speaking of the stain of sin) which is preached, this is where Jesus makes the connection that the branches represent men. Some abide in Him, some do not.

Vs 4, Abide in me, is an exhortation found throughout the NT, for those who are saved to live in Jesus, and to separate themselves from sin, the call is to live, a Holy Life, if any sin "we have an advocate with the Father (the vinedresser), Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jhn 2:1),

It is presumed all believers understand they are saved because of His (Jesus) righteousness not our own (Rom 4:6, 5:18, 6:16) *see what Paul says about the righteoiusness which he trusted in at Phil 3:8-9.

Now notice verse 5, Those who abide in Him, Jesus says; bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Now verse 6, is the verse which causes problems for many, and where the difficult to understand portion of this passage begins, but it really isn't;  on the surface it appears to teach that any branch that is cut off and cast away is likened to a man that was abiding in Jesus, and then because he no longer abides in Him, he is cut off; This then is developed by some who teach doctrinal erorrs into a "lose your salvation doctrine".



But, if you read the verse very carefully, this is not what it says at all, in fact in examining it carefully there is nothing said about pruning nor cutting off a branch.

In any real vine, branches wither and die, naturally.......

It simply says;
If a man abide not in me,[/b[ he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Any man that does not abide in Jesus, (does not belong to Him) is not a branch of this vine of which He is. This is what is being said, herein.

So you see, these verses do NOT TEACH, a man which abides in Jesus, loses his salvation, it simply says that those who do not abide in Him, is cast forth as a branch, and withers and dies, and is burned........

One has to stretch what is written to make it says, that any MAN that does not abide in Him, used to be like a branch that did at one time, but doesn't know.


Beware of FALSE, teachers...................I wouldn't put alot of faith in anything asaph....said.  

But my question to you is, whose righteousness do you trust in??

And do you believe What the Lord says about His salvation He gives to men.

Isa 51
6  Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
8  For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.


Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2004, 10:57:55 AM »

Thank you for replying Petro, I will go back and consider what you have said and re-read the scriptures.  I will let you know what I conclude.

And no I have not skirted your question, I asked for clarification, obviously meaning I wanted to make sure I was clear on what you were asking before I answered, and I thank you not to accuse me of knowing what you meant and purposely dodging it.  I will answer that question as well.



God bless
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
The Crusader
Guest
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2004, 05:52:41 AM »

SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE
by Pastor John L. Cyr, Jr.


The decision concerning our eternal destiny is without question the single most important decision we can ever make! God has given to each and everyone of us that one important thing that can doom us to hell or save us and give us life eternal with Him in heaven. That one thing is, of courses the ability to exercise our free will and make a choice! The following information is directly from the very Word of God, and is written specifically to those of us now living in the "dispensation of grace. " we hope that you will read it carefully, and believe what God has done to save the human race from eternal punishment. You can make this decision right now and settle, once forever, your eternal destiny. This choice is yours.

FIVE IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT SALVATION
1. OUR NATURAL CONDITION
The very first thing any person must admit is that he or she is, by nature, a sinner. It has been said 'we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners!" How true that is! God declares to us in Romans 3:12, They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. "

Again, in Romans 3:19b, "that every mouth be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." God's word proves "both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" (Rom. 3:9b). Some of us would like to exclude ourselves from this situation, but God makes it very clear in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". Understanding this, and believing it to be true, is absolutely critical to those who wish to have eternal life.

2. GOD'S ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

The fact is, very few people want to discuss the idea of eternal punishment by God. Some think God would never do such a thing. Some choose to think that somehow, some way, God will simply "overlook" their sin and not hold them accountable! And, most would rather not discuss it at all, but put it out of their mind, like a bad dream. But once again, God is very Clear on this subject and has made it very plain that everyone who Comes to the age of accountability will give an account of himself to God. Romans 2:3 says, "And thinkest thou this, O Man, that judgest them which do sach things (sin) and doest the same that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?" The Apostle Paul states by inspiration in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death (second death); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Read also Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8, and Acts 17:31.

3. CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS (GOSPEL OF GRACE)

The facts we have just seen about our "condition of sin", and the ultimate destiny of sinners, are certainly not good news. Up to this points things look grim and hopeless! But the "good news" (gospel) is that God has made a wonderful provision for everyone that is lost. That provision is not a "system" (religion, philosophy, etc.), but a savior!

God knows our natural condition, and has made a way to save each and every one of us from eternal torment. If we are to be saved from hell and have eternal life, we must come to God in His way, not our way.

Faith is the key...

The only way a person can come to God today is by faith, by simply believing God's word. Believing is the only thing that a sinner can do, without doing anything!

What do I have to Believe?

God's word is the only thing on this planet that can be believed and trusted. Romans 10:17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." So, we must believe what God says, and not what men say. Remember, it is His way, not ours. God's way for us today is to simply believe in our hearts what Paul said in I Corinthians 15.3,4 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which l also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:". God, knowing our helpless condition, says through Paul in Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. "

God paid the ultimate price He could pay! He paid for our sins with the blood of His only son! Romans 3:25a states "Whom (Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation (all sufficient sacrifice) through faith in his blood," If you will believe in your heart that "Christ died for your sins", you can be saved and have eternal life. That is it! The choice ls yours.


"Christ died FOR our sins."
I Corinthians 15:3

4. GOD'S GRACE IS A FREE GIFT

It has been said, that, "the best things in life are free!" Oh, how true this really is. While millions of people are sincere in their attempt to reach God, their good works will never be sufficient to satisfy God. God's grace is a free, undeserved gift! Paul states in Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believed on him that justifieth the ungodly, his is counted for righteousness."

God's justice requires that we be justified (declared righteous). we have already shown, without a doubt, that man alone could never attain this perfect status of perfection. Romans 3:24 says, 'Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". We can actually receive, freely, God's perfect righteousness by simply believing. II Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."!!

The one and only way to be saved, and have eternal life, is to believe "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23b) also read Ephesians 2:8-10.

5. TRUST IS ESSENTIAL

Psalms 118:8 says, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. " Most of us have learned, firsthand, how painful it is to be lied to. In any type of relationship, trust is always the essential element. The four important facts about salvation and eternal life, that we have just previously discussed, can do us no good if we do not truly trust God and His wonderful plan of grace. It is not enough to just mentally agree" or have a "head knowledge" of these important facts, it is absolutely vital that you trust God's Sacrificial payment for your sin! Ephesians 1:13 says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that how Spirit of promise,". God's grace is totally sufficient; you can now stop "trying" and start "trusting." The choice is yours. Have you made the decision of your lifetime? If you have not, please consider the consequences of the wrong decision. Read Fact #2 again. If you have trusted the blood of Jesus Christ to pay for all of your sins, you're saved!, and can now begin to learn more about the Lord and His wonderful plan for you. Ephesians 2:7.

Thank You for taking the time to read, If we can be of any further assistance or If you have any questions, Please feel free to e-mail us at: GraceBibleFellowship@graceonline.org

or write to:

Grace Bible Fellowship, 46 Yale Street, Sanford, Maine 04073

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The Crusader
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2004, 06:29:32 AM »

Becoming a Christian means you have been spiritually born anew. Eph.2:1.
Beforehand you were spiritually dead to God but now the believer in Christ is----

[a] Born of God. John 3:3. 1John 5:1-5. And becomes a --

Child of God. 1 John.3:2. This is because the believer has become a--

[c] New Creation. 11 Corinthians.5:17. "Therefore if anyone is IN CHRIST he is a new creation, old things have passed away behold all things have become new."

The new life of a Christian is not turning over a new leaf and trying harder but is the new life of Christ by the Holy Spirit within the believers quickened spirit. Eph.2:5.
The divine nature of God becomes one with our spirit.2Peter.1:4.

Read also . Eph.2:4-6. Gal.2:20. John.17:20-21.

Just as a person cannot be unborn physically because they had nothing to do with it, so it is with spiritual birth, for it is all the Lords work.
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Everyday Newborn
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2004, 10:53:01 AM »

Sorry I have not responded sooner, I have been very busy lately.

I have read the scriptures over and over, and I have read what your interpretation is.  My conclusion remains the same however, and I will gladly explain. (Please keep in mind that in my posts I'm simply offering a different point of view, whether you agree with it or not is up to you.  I've seen some people get upset with each other over issues and I hope that doesn't happen here.)  Wink

You said: “Ezekiel 33, is written to the Jews who were under the OT Law of Moses, the Covenant has been abolished even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, by Jesus in his flesh. (Eph 2:15)”

First of all, this has nothing to do with the OT Law, what God is establishing here is a principal, and it is not limited to just the Jews alone.  If you disregard everything that was established under the old Covenant, then are you disregarding the Ten Commandments?  Ezekiel 33 talks of a righteous man, so according to your response are you stating this passage is saying that men were only righteous in the OT?  Were only Jews righteous?  Absolutely not!  The principal God was establishing here was that of a person whom He himself deemed as a righteous man, and says to the man that he will surely live (eternal security) in v13.  BUT then HE (of his free will) turns from his ways and does evil, the consequence is death (wait, what happened to eternal security?).  Die does not mean the first death and live can’t possibly mean physical life, those definitions would not fit with this passage.  They can only mean eternal separation from God and eternal life with God.  
It also talks about a sinner and unbeliever who decides to turn from his wicked ways and the result is he has life.  It is clearly showing both sides of the situation.  Re-read that carefully and consider what each sentence is saying.  By the way, this same passage is repeated in Ezekiel three times, so this must be important.

Now concerning John 15, I do not agree with your interpretation of this scripture.

As you said yourself, this passage is not difficult to understand.  Jesus establishes God as the gardener, Jesus is the vine, and we are branches.  This can only mean believers since what he is saying here is that we are ‘in Christ’.  The unsaved are not ‘in Christ’.  In order to ‘remain’ in something, we have to be a part of it in the first place, right?  This is a key element to this passage.
In vs.1 he establishes that he is the true vine (meaning he is the only way to God {John 14:6 “ I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me.}”  
In vs.2 God is the gardener who cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit (the believer who does not remain in Jesus) and prunes the branches who do.  Remember, who he’s talking about are those who are saved, because to be a believer is to be ‘in Christ’.  So what does it mean to bear fruit?  We can only bare fruit by our faith and obedience to Christ.  So those who are not faithful or obedient, are cut off.  Those who remain faithful and obedient, God prunes or continues to work in us to rid our lives of our sins so that we can be closer to Him, and be better witnesses to the unbelievers and Glorify Him through us.
In vs.3 they have become believers through the message Christ spoke to them.  This is followed by a command in vs.4, to REMAIN in him.  He goes on to tell us why we should remain in him, because if we don’t remain faithful and obedient, we will not be being good witnesses and we will not be glorifying God.  We must remain in him.
In vs.5 he restates who he is, and who we are, then goes on to tell us what will be the result ‘if’ (1st key word) we ‘remain’ (2nd key word) in him.  That is he will remain in us and we will bear much fruit, because should we chose to not remain in him and thus separate ourselves from Christ we are then on our own, and that amounts to nothing.
Now you say in vs.6 it doesn’t say anything about being ‘cut off’ or ‘separated’, when indeed it does.  The very beginning of the sentence says that ‘If’ (key word again) we don’t ‘remain’ (the biggest key word in this sentence) in him, that branch is thrown away.  Again, in order to ‘remain’ in him we would have to be a part of him in the first place.  But if it’s thrown away, how is that still attached to the vine?  Can you throw a branch away that is still part of the vine?  So the judgement is that they were once a part of the vine, and are now separated and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation).
In vs.7 he states again the two key words throughout this passage, that ‘if’ we ‘remain’ in him, we will have a relationship with him.
In vs.8 he states again the reason why we are to ‘remain’ in him, it’s for God’s glory in our fruit bearing (faith and obedience) which is evidence that we are true believers.
In vs.9 he addresses those who are in his love, we are to ‘remain’ in his love.
In vs.10 he tells us how we ‘remain’ in his love, by our obedience.  Note that he uses ‘if’ again.  
In vs.11 Your joy comes from knowing you have a friendship with Jesus, and that comes again from doing what he commands (states again in vs.14).

These two passages are clear principals that a loss of one’s salvation is possible.  How is it possible?  By our separating ourselves from Jesus, through a deliberate disobedience to his Word, we break that friendship and are cast away into the fire and burned.  Does this happen at the drop of a hat?  Certainly not!  But the scriptures are clear that it can happen.  When Jesus gave his sermon on the mount, he took the physical laws and elevated them to an inward spiritual reflection. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.”  And, “"You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.'  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.", etc.  These all point to the attitude of your heart, something inward.  That is what I have been trying to say in all my posts, that if you deliberately sin against God, it’s a result of something that happened inwardly and there is an attitude of disobedience to God.  That is where a person runs into trouble.  You asked me to answer your question, this whole post is an answer to your question.  Jesus went to the cross and died for the sins of those who repent of them.  Jesus gives me the free gift.  That is the work he did in my salvation and became my Savior.  But there is a responsibility we now have as believers, which is obedience to His Word as a new creation.  Jesus himself stressed this numerous times, under the Old Covenant as well as the New, that never changed.  My being obedient to His Word and His Will is my responsibility in making him the Lord of my life.  You can NOT have one without the other.  How can someone say, ‘I’ll accept the free gift but I don’t have to be obedient to his Word’.  Or how could someone say, ‘I’ll obey what he said but I don’t have to accept what he did for me.’  Will such people be saved?  
In Ezekiel, God said he was a righteous man, and said that he will surely live.  But then the person did something that ended up costing him all of what he had.  In John it continually stated 'if we' remain, pointing out that the responsibility is ours and the consequences of our decisions.  We have to accept the free gift, and we have to remain in him.

I hope that you will at least consider what I've said, and re-read the scriptures.  If you still disagree, then we know where each other stands and still accept each other as brothers and friends.

God bless.
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Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Petro
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2004, 12:46:38 PM »

everyday newborn,

Well, you can believe whatever teaching appeals to you, however if it is based on error, then you have a problem.

The Apostle Paul, explains this very carefully at Romans 11, concerning Israel and the Gentiles.

The vine in view at John 15, supported by the root is not something that came into existence with the NT Covenant

As I stated before one has to understand something about the husbandry of the vine in view herein, in OT the vine always represented Israel.  In ther NT the vine of Jhn 15, is representative of Jesus.

The husbandman, chose which portion of the vine would produce the branches, and removed all others.

I know you have no idea what this means..but it is enough that the hearers of what Jesus was teaching atr Jhn 15, did.

The NT is the Branch which represents Jesus, He is the only remaininging Vine from the same root.

Symbolically HE is the  ONE whom God used for Israel's sanctification for the hearing of the truth, they were the first to whom the Gospel was presented, their rejection of it, in effect caused them to be removed as branches, from the root, because of unbelief.

You fail to see, that fruit produced by the branches, is an allegory, and used to teach that God looks for the fruit of the spirit in believers (Gal 5:22-23), and that the branches that are "in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:" (Jhn 15:2) do not lose salvation at all, they are simply removed from this present life, but their spirit are saved, this is made clear at 1 Cor 5, where there is a saved man living in sin, note;

There are other viewpoints on this, take your pick.

1 Cor 5
1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You just assume that the branches removed are those who lose salvation.

The context this passage at Jhn 15, is addressed to "unbelievers", His disciples beleieved God, but as of yet, had not come to Saving Faith in Jesus (they never came to saving faith in Him, until after His resurrection).

At Jhn 14:1,  Jesus had said to them;

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

So, in superficiallly reading the passage you have chosen to make your point, produces a supercial undertsanding of what Jesus is teaching, and thus you have a doctrine which is foreign to the teaching of Biblical truth.

But if this is what you embrace, who am I to keep you from your pleasure.

Blessings,

Petro
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2004, 04:45:04 AM »

I believe we do have eternal security with Jesus, however, I do believe we can fall away and lose our salvation. We have free will even after becoming born again.
There are some verses in the scriptures which make it clear to me, here are some examples where Jesus makes it clear that some of "His" will not be saved.

 Mat 25:1-13 speaks about ten "virgins" the term virgin denotes pure, or His. All had oil lamps, in other words, all had Jesus, but some were foolish and lost their share of oil.

 Mat 25:14-30 speaks about a "master" who called "his servants" however, some of "his servants" did not receive his approval.

I also believe that we can fall away and be welcomes back again. We all have a certain amount of time to accept Jesus. When He returns in the "end times" at His appointed time, time is up, and if we are not in His service at that time, then we are doomed. The story of the prodigal son is a great example of a "son" leaving his father and returning and being welcomed back with open arms. The son was not received back because of some great work he had completed while he was away, he was a miserable failure without his father and he returned humiliated and humbled and willing to be a servant, so I do not believe we can do anything to save ourselves, we must kneel before the most awsome, powerful, wonderful force in the universe and beyond...Jesus... but Jesus will not force us to stay, He promised us free will and He keeps His promises.

Take care my brothers and sisters.

Bronzesnake.
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