DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 20, 2017, 03:56:53 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
277848 Posts in 26485 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  Bible Study (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  Eternal Security Of The Believer
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Eternal Security Of The Believer  (Read 9095 times)
Ambassador4Christ
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2873


Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?


View Profile WWW
« on: February 21, 2004, 04:50:59 PM »

Eternal Security Of The Believer

Preaching The Grace Of God – From The King James Bible – Dispensationally Delivered

Berean Bible Church – Edgewater, Florida – Doug Dodd s.b.g. - Pastor

Eternal life has always been an issue of faith not of works. Man can be saved eternally based upon his faith in what God tells him to believe. The content of faith can change from one dispensation to the next but the mechanics stay the same. For example:

Noah

1. Noah needed to be saved from God's wrath,

2. God told Noah what he had to do to escape that wrath,

3. Noah's faith in what God said caused him to build the ark.

Today

1. Man needs to be saved from God's coming wrath.

2. God tells us what we must do to escape that wrath.

3. Our faith in what God says causes us to believe the gospel of grace.

The question arises, "Is once saved always saved" a true statement?

The reason this question gets asked is because of a failure to understand the cross work of Christ.

VERSE: 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

VIEWPOINT: When Christ died two thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day".

VICTORY: We no longer have to carry around the guilt of our sins. He has set us free from the bondage and domination of sin so that we could do something we could never do before -- serve Him!

VERSE: Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

VIEWPOINT: Eternal life is a promise from God, who, by the way, cannot lie!! Eternal life = eternal life, life that is eternal, just as eternal death = death that lasts forever. Notice that God promised eternal life "before the world began"! Before He made a when or a where He had you and me in mind all the time.

VICTORY: God keeps his promise.

VERSE: Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

VIEWPOINT: God hath (past tense!) made us ACCEPTED in the beloved (Christ). All we have, we have because of Calvary. God made us accepted. We were not acceptable on our own but in Christ we have been made accepted.

VICTORY: When God looks at us he sees his Son!

VERSES: Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved

US

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIEWPOINT: We are NOT saved by our good works i.e. trying to stop sin in our lives. We have been saved by grace (the provision of God) through faith (believing what God says).

VICTORY: If we are unable to save ourselves are we foolish enough to think we could keep ourselves? God has provide a better way, he has provided himself for us.

VERSES: 2 Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13...: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

VICTORY: The seal of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

VERSES: Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

VIEWPOINT: From God's viewpoint we are seated already in the heavens. Our life is hid with Christ in God and when Christ comes back we will go to be with him.

VICTORY: Seated with Christ in glory above, another recipient of his wonderful love.

VERSES: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

VIEWPOINT: We have been called according to his purpose i.e. He is forming the church the body of Christ. The gospel call goes out. Those who respond are "the called, justified and glorified (present perfect tense) eternal saints of God.

VICTORY: If God be for us, and he is, who can be against us? Answer: Not nobody, not no how!

SUMMARY: Is once saved always saved true? Yes! Why, because we are such good, wonderful, courageous people? No, but because of the total provision of God for us through Christ.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!! To the above study. Ambassador4Christ
 

Logged



Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=550

Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Petro
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1535


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2004, 10:57:26 PM »

Quote
SUMMARY: Is once saved always saved true? Yes! Why, because we are such good, wonderful, courageous people? No, but because of the total provision of God for us through Christ.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!! To the above study. Ambassador4Christ

A4C,

Now you are talking......I will AMEN that with a biogger AMEN.


AMEN

Not our righteousness, but HIS righteousness, is what seals, our salvation, to the very end.

This is what David spoke of when he said;

Rom 4
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessings,

Petro
Logged

aw
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 369


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2004, 08:19:50 AM »

Ah yes, 2 of my fvorite brothers in Christian Cyberland.

Yeas, Amen, and we are KEPT by the power of the almighty God. Honestly, I really do not know why this doctrine is even an issue. It is the gift of E_T_E_R_N_A_L life.

Regards,

aw
Logged
Petro
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1535


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2004, 03:00:36 AM »

Amen.

If this doctrine is true, which it is.

And the FAITH of Gods children are on His righteousness and not ours.

How is it, our unrighteousness, makes His righteousness of no effect?

It is written, for our sakes;

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.  (Gal 1-6)


God Bless You all who trust in Him, and Not in yourselves..

And for those of you, who trust in yourselves, may the Word of God illuminate your hearts and minds to trust the Word of Life.

Petro
Logged

Ambassador4Christ
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2873


Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2004, 06:50:56 PM »

Quote
SUMMARY: Is once saved always saved true? Yes! Why, because we are such good, wonderful, courageous people? No, but because of the total provision of God for us through Christ.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!! To the above study. Ambassador4Christ

A4C,

Now you are talking......I will AMEN that with a biogger AMEN.


AMEN

Not our righteousness, but HIS righteousness, is what seals, our salvation, to the very end.

This is what David spoke of when he said;

Rom 4
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessings,

Petro


And One AAAAAAAAAMEN back at you Petro Grin
Logged



Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=550

Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Everyday Newborn
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2004, 06:02:40 PM »

Judging by the name of the thread, I would agree.  There is eternal security for those who believe by faith in Jesus, what he did for us on the cross, and continue to do so throughout the rest of his life here on earth.

But what about someone who accepts this and is a believer, but then for some reason or another decides to reject one or more of his teachings, or altogther.  Is that person still 'saved'?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 06:06:25 PM by Everyday Newborn » Logged

Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
aw
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 369


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2004, 11:09:24 PM »

Ah yes, the old FREE WILL debate and does seem to have credence. Why would not a person be free to choose to reject eternal life if they so desired?

My belief is that God has provided for sufficient safeguards against such a thing by His being active in the lives of the believer both to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13; Heb 13:20,21) That, coupled with the fact that we are NEW CREATIONS in Christ, I think make such a thing imposaible.
Logged
Petro
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1535


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2004, 01:53:22 AM »

Judging by the name of the thread, I would agree.  There is eternal security for those who believe by faith in Jesus, what he did for us on the cross, and continue to do so throughout the rest of his life here on earth.

But what about someone who accepts this and is a believer, but then for some reason or another decides to reject one or more of his teachings, or altogther.  Is that person still 'saved'?

everyday newborn,

Welcome to the forum,

Ok, fair enough....

When you say; "is a believer" I assume your are speaking of a person who is truly Born from Above of incorruptible seed, the Word of God, type headed for heaven.

Suppose he decides to sin willingly, I don't mean on the spur of the moment, but actually plans his sin, and then does it, what about that person??

Does he then become unsaved??

There is no evidence for such a teaching in scripture, the bible teaches, that whosoever is saved, is saved by the blood of Jesus, which covers ALL sins, past, present and future.../

Although you will find people that claim they believe that people can lose their salvations, when one asks them, what must they do to be re-saved, they claim all they have to do is repent, but the Word of God makes it clear, that If a believer could sin and lose his salvation, he could never be brought back to repentance again, becuase, their is no more blood shed by the Savior for that sin which caused him, to lose the free gift of salvation.

His blood either paiud for ALL of the sinners sins, or it didn't.

You see, Jesus died only one time and shed ALL of his blood once and for all, for those whom He saves; so if one is saved, on the basis of the blood shed on Calvaries cross for all his sins., then any sin which could cause the saved to become unsaved, that means that sin, was not covered by the blood.


So if it were possible for that person to lose the free  gift of salvation, which was attained for him by Jesus at the cross, by sinning a sin, which can take away that free gift, then no matter how much, or how long, or how many times this individual tried to repent, it would be impossible for God to grant him rpenetance, since there is no more blood for the remission of that sin, which he sinned which caused him to lose salvation.

Where would he fine the blood, acceptable to God for remission of that sin??

So, though this is a hypothetical question, it is not possible, since all sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, past present, and future; He died once and for all, to save them whom God has given to Him.


Blessings,
Petro
Logged

The Crusader
Guest
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2004, 05:08:24 AM »

Judging by the name of the thread, I would agree.  There is eternal security for those who believe by faith in Jesus, what he did for us on the cross, and continue to do so throughout the rest of his life here on earth.

But what about someone who accepts this and is a believer, but then for some reason or another decides to reject one or more of his teachings, or altogther.  Is that person still 'saved'?

everyday newborn,

Welcome to the forum,

Ok, fair enough....

When you say; "is a believer" I assume your are speaking of a person who is truly Born from Above of incorruptible seed, the Word of God, type headed for heaven.

Suppose he decides to sin willingly, I don't mean on the spur of the moment, but actually plans his sin, and then does it, what about that person??

Does he then become unsaved??

There is no evidence for such a teaching in scripture, the bible teaches, that whosoever is saved, is saved by the blood of Jesus, which covers ALL sins, past, present and future.../

Although you will find people that claim they believe that people can lose their salvations, when one asks them, what must they do to be re-saved, they claim all they have to do is repent, but the Word of God makes it clear, that If a believer could sin and lose his salvation, he could never be brought back to repentance again, becuase, their is no more blood shed by the Savior for that sin which caused him, to lose the free gift of salvation.

His blood either paiud for ALL of the sinners sins, or it didn't.

You see, Jesus died only one time and shed ALL of his blood once and for all, for those whom He saves; so if one is saved, on the basis of the blood shed on Calvaries cross for all his sins., then any sin which could cause the saved to become unsaved, that means that sin, was not covered by the blood.


So if it were possible for that person to lose the free  gift of salvation, which was attained for him by Jesus at the cross, by sinning a sin, which can take away that free gift, then no matter how much, or how long, or how many times this individual tried to repent, it would be impossible for God to grant him rpenetance, since there is no more blood for the remission of that sin, which he sinned which caused him to lose salvation.

Where would he fine the blood, acceptable to God for remission of that sin??

So, though this is a hypothetical question, it is not possible, since all sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, past present, and future; He died once and for all, to save them whom God has given to Him.


Blessings,
Petro

Amen Petro,

All the saved are eternally secure in Christ (Col. 3:1-4, Phil. 1:6, Rom. 8:1, Rom. 8:29-34, Rom. 8:38-39, Eph. 1:13-14).

 

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<Smiley))><
Logged
Everyday Newborn
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2004, 01:39:45 PM »

AW, Petro, and Crusader, first of all thank you for responding, I appreciate your thoughts and I look forward to discussing this in further detail.  

Again I will say that I agree with Eternal Security, but to a point.  We can all agree that if we ask Jesus to become our Lord AND Savior; if we believe by faith that he died for our sins and rose from the dead in conquer of death, and we become new creatures in Christ and now live a new life according to his good and perfect will, then there will be nothing that can pluck us from his hand.

An interesting thing about the Lord and Savior, is that what I hear a lot talked about today is the Savior part.  I hear about his dying on the cross, his blood shed to cover our sins, thus reconciling us unto the Father and having redemption in Christ Jesus.  Every bit I believe with my whole heart.  However, beyond believing in him and accepting what he did on the cross, there is also now a responsibility we have as 'believers', which is to love him and love others (which could only include obedience).  When we chose God of our free will, it is no longer our will but his will we chose to set as the authority in our lives.  

If we therefore, chose to continue in this love and obedience, and continue to have fellowship with God and walk in his ways, we will never thirst, and we will have all that God has to give us because we never leave that fellowship.  That's not to say we still won't slip here and there, or do something we didn't know was wrong as we grow in knowledge.  But if the attitude of our hearts remains such that Jesus is the supreme authority in our life, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, what do we have to fear?

Where we differ in thought is you say you can't walk away and lose what you've gained.  I've heard it said that even if you do chose to walk away, you're still saved but just won't have as many rewards in heaven.  In other words, it's okay to sin and reject Jesus' teachings, and do what you want you just won't be rewarded as much.  Now that is an extreme view, but I've heard that arguement.  To be honest, that disturbs me, cause that is taking everything that Jesus is, taught, stood for, and trampling it underfoot.  What I'm pointing out here is the attitude of the heart.  Remember before I said if you slip here and there because we are imperfect but your attitude remains good and pure, then you will not lose your salvation.  But what I am also saying is on the flip side of that, if someone accepts Jesus, walks in his ways and loves God but then because we are human and sin creeps in and we begin to believe a lie, the attitude of our heart changes and we reject a teaching(s) of Jesus, then we break our fellowship with him.  And if we justify a sin or sins, and continue to do so out of our own selfishness knowing what Jesus says about it, you are not a child of God.  Jesus is no longer the full authority of your life, and you are purposely going against his will.  Then you have forsaken your true love, and the bond is broken.  Not by God's doing, but by our own.
Logged

Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Everyday Newborn
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2004, 02:03:50 PM »

Now Petro, the scripture you were referring to about it being impossible to be brought back to repentance.  That is in Hebrews 6, and let me know if you disagree.  Again, I truly value your thoughts.

Here we have a person who is considered a believer, judging by the description.  Then they fall away, so I look at what happened.  Again like in my previous reply (part 1 if you will <laugh>), what I see here is there was a change in their attitude, and for whatever reason they have chosen to reject God in some manner.  What that manner is it does not say in detail, but falling away I see as a rejection to the knowledge and experience they had in Christ.  In doing so, they are saying that Jesus is not good enough, and to their loss they no longer have the blood of Christ to cover them.  They had to harden their heart to the truth they once knew, thus it would seem impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.  I say 'it would seem' because I do not take that literally.  I refuse to believe God wouldn't ever forgive someone, or accept someone's repentance.  After all, that is what God is, forgivness, so to take that scripture literally would be God rejecting himself.  Therefore it being impossible to be brought back to repentance is not from God's view, but the view of the sinner to change their ways.

Another example of the point I'm trying to make is a little further down in Hebrews 10:26-31.  Again we see someone who is 'deliberatly' sinning, again there's a change in their attitude towards God that must take place in order for that to happen.  And if they cast aside the blood of Jesus, the holy santification that once saved him, what other sacrifice is there that can bring him back into fellowship with God?  God said that no one comes to him except through Jesus.  So if a believer decides to sin deliberatly they nullify the blood that covers him, and there is nothing left that can save him.  So what awaits such a person?  A fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.  Notice how now the person has become an 'enemy' of God.

Please let me know what you think about this.  Please give it some thought and prayer.  I look forward to hearing from you.
Logged

Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Paul2
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 531



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2004, 02:40:24 PM »

AW, Petro, and Crusader, first of all thank you for responding, I appreciate your thoughts and I look forward to discussing this in further detail.  

Again I will say that I agree with Eternal Security, but to a point.  We can all agree that if we ask Jesus to become our Lord AND Savior; if we believe by faith that he died for our sins and rose from the dead in conquer of death, and we become new creatures in Christ and now live a new life according to his good and perfect will, then there will be nothing that can pluck us from his hand.

An interesting thing about the Lord and Savior, is that what I hear a lot talked about today is the Savior part.  I hear about his dying on the cross, his blood shed to cover our sins, thus reconciling us unto the Father and having redemption in Christ Jesus.  Every bit I believe with my whole heart.  However, beyond believing in him and accepting what he did on the cross, there is also now a responsibility we have as 'believers', which is to love him and love others (which could only include obedience).  When we chose God of our free will, it is no longer our will but his will we chose to set as the authority in our lives.  

If we therefore, chose to continue in this love and obedience, and continue to have fellowship with God and walk in his ways, we will never thirst, and we will have all that God has to give us because we never leave that fellowship.  That's not to say we still won't slip here and there, or do something we didn't know was wrong as we grow in knowledge.  But if the attitude of our hearts remains such that Jesus is the supreme authority in our life, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, what do we have to fear?

Where we differ in thought is you say you can't walk away and lose what you've gained.  I've heard it said that even if you do chose to walk away, you're still saved but just won't have as many rewards in heaven.  In other words, it's okay to sin and reject Jesus' teachings, and do what you want you just won't be rewarded as much.  Now that is an extreme view, but I've heard that arguement.  To be honest, that disturbs me, cause that is taking everything that Jesus is, taught, stood for, and trampling it underfoot.  What I'm pointing out here is the attitude of the heart.  Remember before I said if you slip here and there because we are imperfect but your attitude remains good and pure, then you will not lose your salvation.  But what I am also saying is on the flip side of that, if someone accepts Jesus, walks in his ways and loves God but then because we are human and sin creeps in and we begin to believe a lie, the attitude of our heart changes and we reject a teaching(s) of Jesus, then we break our fellowship with him.  And if we justify a sin or sins, and continue to do so out of our own selfishness knowing what Jesus says about it, you are not a child of God.  Jesus is no longer the full authority of your life, and you are purposely going against his will.  Then you have forsaken your true love, and the bond is broken.  Not by God's doing, but by our own.

     So where is the standard set? Perfection? Impossible, nobody can obey the teachings of Jesus perfectly. Jesus elavated the standard Himself to include thoughts, not just actions. If you hate your brother your a murderer in your heart. If you look upon a woman wrong your an adulterer in your heart.

     Perfection is out of the question. It seems you are saying that any known sin, meaning a sin you are aware is a sin but chose to commit it anyway, would cause the loss of ones Salvation. That means a lie would cause the loss of Salvation, taking the Lord's name in vain would cancel salvation according to this view. I've never met a person who doesn't sin at least once a day, whether in the flesh or in the mind.

     Where is the standard for your beliefs to be set? How many known sins does it take to lose Salvation? 1? 5? 100?

     This standard that Jesus taught was more strict than the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was based on actions, the teachings of Jesus where based on thoughts. Sin begins with thoughts before the flesh carries out the action. Sin begins in the mind, the mind controls the flesh. Some sins are never acted out in the flesh but are acted out in the heart and mind only, but are never the less, Sins.

    Where do you draw the line? Its a slippery slope I see in your interpretation. If I've understood this wrong please clarify what you mean. At what point do you believe Salvation is lost?

    If you are right I might as well give up right here and now, cause I'll never make the grade. I fall so far short I wouldn't stand a chance. He might as well just pitch me into the Lake of Fire right now and get it over with. If I were to believe as you, I never would have read more than 10 pages of the Bible. By the time I got to the tenth page starting anywhere in the book I'd have given up. I'd be thinking, "theres no way I can do all these things right, I've lived in this evil world to long to be able to do everything perfectly now. I'm a sinner, always have been, always will be."  Until Jesus transforms me, perfects me, Raptures me, Glorifies me, I'm stuck with this weak sinful body, which still makes mistakes. Your way of thinking is scary to me. I'd never be able to sleep or to have any assurance at all of my Salvation. One slip up and its off to the Lake of Fire you go? Yikes! Grace would be severely diminished, would it not?

                                                         Paul2
Logged

Everyday Newborn
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 43



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2004, 04:15:58 PM »

Paul 2-

I agree that we sin even after we accept Christ, I included that in what I said.  In fact, I repeated it.  But I will say it again, we will still slip up, we'll stumble in our sin even after we've received the truth.  While we are still in this tent, we will always have sin in our life.  Our goal should be to aim for perfection (2 Cor 13:11), but realistically knowing we'll never obtain it.

Why would you be scared from my view?  If your attitude and your love are always fixed on Jesus being the supreme authority in your life (keeping in mind that we are not perfect as I said above), what do you have to fear?  However, as in the Hebrew scriptures I stated, it's when we deliberatly continue to sin is when we get into trouble.  In doing so, Jesus is no longer is the authority in your life, you've chosen to stray from his teachings and go your own way.  He is patient, and you're asking me at what point does his patience run out as it has so many times in the Bible.  I will tell you, I don't know.  

So lets recap very quickly.  We still sin after we accept Christ, that's a fact.  God knows our hearts and sees that we're not perfect, but that our heart is set on doing the right thing.  If we continue to deliberatly sin, again God knows our heart and if it's not right, we have the expectation of judgement and known as an enemy of God.

When you become a Christian it's no easy ride.  Let me give this to you to consider:
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (1 Pet 4:18)
Why would it be hard for the righteous to be saved if 'everything' is so easily under the blood of Christ.  Stop here for a moment and think about that.  If you dileberatly sin, you are missing the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross.  You are trampling underfoot what is holy.  Please re-read the scriptures in Hebrews and the others I listed here and let me know what you think.

I thank you for asking me to clarify, and I hope I have.  Let me know if you have any more questions.
Logged

Pr. 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
Paul2
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 531



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2004, 06:04:56 PM »

       Perhaps you have lived a clean life. Not all of us have.

       Picture someone who was a great sinner before accepting Christ. Consider the person has habits and addictions. Picture someone who has smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 25 years. Someone who knows all about the dangers of smoking but is so addicted they just can't stop. Say they accept Jesus, but continue to smoke even though they know it is harmful and wrong. Could they even become a believer if they smoke? How long do they have before they must quit before their Salvation is lost, for they know what their doing is wrong but haven't been able to quit yet?

    Thats just one example. Before repentance their must be belief. Repentance is impossible without the Holy Spirit leading one to repent.

    I lived a sinful life. I'm not perfect. I'm not proud of my sins but I still sin and cofess it but I'm still a willful sinner at times. But I'm being really honest about it. I don't know if I've ever been sin free in my life. Theres always something I'm not doing right, for the good we ought to do and don't is sin as I see it.

    To me you seem like some super Christian if you can pass the standard you have set. You must never ever lie because that would be willfully sinning. You might be the first person I've evr met that never willfully sins. You can't have it both ways, Grace and Works, its either perfect Grace or perfect works. I'd never make it if works are involved in any way. I'm a sinner. Woe to me wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ will.

                                                           Paul2
Logged

Pilgrim
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 252


Jesus is Lord


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2004, 06:33:55 PM »

Eternal Life

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

The book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To properly understand the book of Hebrews this must be kept in mind. One of the main keywords in Hebrews is “better” which is used in reference to the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrew is dealing with converts under the New Covenant who are going back to the things of the old covenant for whatever reason. There are about five different explanations for the five warning passages in Hebrews such as the verses above. Some teach that this is speaking about a false professor, one who came close to being saved even partaking of spiritual things. I reject this explanation because the writer uses the strongest possible words to describe one who is truly a Christian. Also in chapter 10 we read:

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Notice that the person mentioned here cannot be a false professor because verse 29 says he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant or in other words he was set apart by the blood of Jesus. This cannot happen to anyone but a child of God. The unsaved are not sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Another very popular explanation for these passages is that the person was truly a child of God but lost his salvation. I reject this explanation as well. First, there are to many Scriptures that teach that a child of God is granted eternal life at his conversion in Christ. If a person could lose their salvation then we have to redefine many words. For example “forever” would not mean forever, “eternal” would not mean eternal, “everlasting” would not mean everlasting, “never perish” would not mean never perish. Now if we change the meanings for these words in relation to salvation then we ought to be honest with ourselves and apply the same meaning wherever we see the words. So when Scripture teach that those who are thrown into the lake of fire and the smoke of their burning ascendeth forever then we must conclude that this might not br forever seeing the same word is used in relation to salvation. Look at the problems you would have if you are consistent in applying the same definitions to word concerning other issues as you do concerning salvation. Below is a small sample.  

Rom. 16:26 “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.”

If salvation is not everlasting then a honest person would have to ask is God everlasting seeing the same word is used to describe both.

2 Cor. 9:9 “(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

If salvation is not forever how can God’s righteousness be forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Rev 4:9 “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever , and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

If salvation is not forever then does the Lord live forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].”

Was it eternal redemption or was is temporary in some cases?

Heb. 10:14 “For  by one offering he hath perfected  for ever them that are sanctified.  15  [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:  for after that he had said before,  16  This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  18  Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin”
Continued
Logged

New Life Bible Chapel
http://www.nlbchapel.org
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2016 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media