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1276  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Innocent Question on: May 12, 2003, 03:41:36 AM
"But when that which is perfect come"  this is the key portion of the verse, understanding this will illuminate the entire verse and passage.  

It is undeniably tied to the previous verse, which says;

1 Cor 13
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

And although verse 8, also, reveals part of what needs to be answered;

8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

So, what is it, that will cause all these to fail or vanish away??

Every Christian who is born of God, is perfected forever, (Heb 10:14), while this is true, we truly lack the thing, which would show this perfection evidence to this world, and  to others, so what is it we lack..

Th Apostle spoke of something which we lack;

1 Th 3
10  Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

So, what is it??

It must be love; in fact it almost has to be perfect love;

I am enclined to think it is,  love.


1 Jhn 4
16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19  We love him, because he first loved us.

Grace, is Gods never ending love, He loves to love and be loved, and what He is doing in saving a people for himself from condemned men, shows His love for the best of His creation.

Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence seems to piont in that direction;

but concerning the gifts, the apostles goes on to say;  forbid not to speak in tongues, which he goes to state, this is a commandment of the Lord (1 Cor 14:39), and let the spirit of the prophets be subject to the prophets  (1 Cor 14:32)

Wether gifts have ceased or not; one thing is evident, there is no one healing like Jesus healed, prophecying has not** ended, speaking in a language which required interpretation is not necessary, but nevertheless , it is not to be forbidden.

** Prophecying is simply giving out the Word of the Gospel of God, it has built in elements of prophecy.

Yet, of the other gifts, there are those who possess faith, more so than others, discernment of spirits is necessary, otherwise the church would fall into heresy, and there is much evidence there are those who possess discernment of spirits, who give the alarm quickly to the body, the word of wisdom seems to exist, others possess understanding, working of miracles is not evident, is it because of lack faith we do not see this gift today?? I can't answer this..

But what is evident to me is this, those that are of God, subject themselves to his word, and are obedient to it.

Love may very well be what is lacking in each of us, and without it we cannot be perfected..


1277  Theology / General Theology / Re:Why Crucifixion? on: May 12, 2003, 01:19:43 AM
I have wondered this myself,

The crucifixcion of Jesus, is also referred to as: hanging on a tree (Acts 5:30, 10:39) in the NT.

The first mention of a "hanging on a tree" is found in Gen 40:19; so apparently it was,  a custom, in use as early as the times of  Joseph the son of Jacob..

And in the book of Deut. while Moses is recounting the law and its observance in the promise land, states at;

Deut 21
22  And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23  His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

So, hanging on a tree, is what apparently became, the crucifixcion spoken of in the NT, concerning the manner of death, which Jesus, was to endure;

He even spoke of it;

Jhn 12
30  ........................... This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 color=Red] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.  

32  color=Red] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  [/color]
33 color=Red] he said, signifying what death he should die. [/color]

This language, causes me to recall, the brazen serpent, which God commanded Moses to make, so that anyone who was bitten by one of the fiery serpents, that was set on a pole in the middle of the camp, could look upon it an live;  (Num 21:8-9)

So this form of torture was in pratice, for thousands of years, before the Romans.

But recently, while reflecting on  a study, I remembered this verse, which I shared elsewhere in another thread herein, while speaking of Gods sovereignty, that God ordained this manner of death, upon His sacrificiasl Lamb;  it was not by chance that Jesus was cricified, note the wording of the following verse;

Acts 2  Peter speaking;
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

And the apostle Paul, says;

1 Cor 2
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That God preordained it, is very clear by the following verse;

Gal 3
10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And the passage goes on to tell us;

16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Many so called christian denominations, reject the cross as the instrument used to crucify Jesus, they rather depict the idea it was a stake or a pole;

1st Century depictions of the cross, would agree with the concept, of a cross, the greek word "stauros" pronounced;  stow-ros  is not clear; as it defines the word as a; stake or pole (upright), while  the Latin word  'cru-ci' refers to principly a "cross",   but in the illustrated Dictionary of the Bible, authored by  Herbert Lockyer, Sr - Editor, published by  Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville;  there is reference to the remains of an individual crucified from the first century A.D., discovered in a cave in Jerusalem, both feet were pierced with a spike just below the heels., and in explaining this they depict the position of the remains on a cross.

Either way, the symbol of the cross, symbolizes the glory of the Christian Gosple..

Praise ther Lord..


1278  Theology / General Theology / Re:Reasons For Christ's Coming. on: May 11, 2003, 06:19:03 PM
He is coming to take poseession HIS purchased possessions.

Praiswe Him,,


1279  Theology / General Theology / Re:Hyper deception, in the visible church... on: May 11, 2003, 06:15:22 PM
I would like to correct a mistake, i made in my last post, instaed of writing John Wesley, I put Charles Wesley's name by mistake, so John Wesley is who I was refering to;

Now, so as someone won't accuse me of; stating that I said, John Wesley was unsaved while ministering the word of God, let me state that this is not my opinion, but the testimony of the writer of a book, recalling the life and times of one of americas great evangelist, pastor, teacher  Geo Whitfield.

I am recalling this from memory..

I'll refernce the book, when I get a chance to dig it out, I have the book, in e book, format.

From what has been written, Johns own words led this individual to believe he truly was converted, after returning back to England from his trip to america, returning dejected, anb worn out, tired and despairing, questioning his own faith.

It was then that he re deicated his life to God...and a great nchange occured in his life.


1280  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 11, 2003, 05:09:31 AM
Actually, the "doctrine of Christ"  is all that matters, it should  be said, Christian Doctrines should not include  anything that is not in the doctrine of Christ.

Now having said that their are other doctrines, which apply to those who are under the law.

Sorry I am not answering for Ollie., just putting in 2 my cents worth in.

1281  Theology / General Theology / Re:Hyper deception, in the visible church... on: May 10, 2003, 01:23:28 PM

Since I became a Christian many years ago, I have always held to the belief, that Billy Graham was an Evangelical Minister of Gods Word,  raised up by  Him, to proclaim the truth of Gods word to the dieing massess, and he has so far as I am able to determine.

And, ever since I learned he along with several other well known bible scholars, entered into the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Declaration in March 1993 (thereabouts) I have wondered  what his motivation for this really was.

I didn't see, anything wrong with joining hands with, people of other beliefs, to combat immorality, and evil, unfortunately the document failed to define the words upon which the basis for this declaration was founded on, instead of it being a moral and dignity matter, it was based on common convictions of the Christian faith and mission.

And since faith must always be founded on the words the bible defines, it should have been made very clear these definitions were agreed to by all signatoriers.
Well, this is a secondary issue in as much as this post is concerned.

While discussing this with a friend he actually had the quote which is attributed to Mr. Graham, I wrote verbatim, ref source included, his belief herein is different from the stand point of what I understand to be the teaching of Gods word.
In an interview by McCalls, article entitled "I Can't Play God Any More"; January issue 1978, Pg. 156,

Mr. Graham is quoted in his own words;

"I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost-were going to hell if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them, I no longer believe that  I believe that thhere are other ways of recognizing the existence of God-through nature, for instance-plenty of other opportunities, therfore, of saying 'yes' to God."

If I have not quoted this right, and someone can correct it, please feel free to do so.

How does this statement, square up with the following verse;

Rom 10
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Mat 24
[color]Take heed that no man deceive you.[/color]
Any thoughts??

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
 19.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 20.  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 Mark 16:15.  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
 16.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If what you attributed to Mr. Graham as saying is true.
It would appear that Mr Graham is in violation of God's word and not scriptural. By their fruits you shall know them.

 Matthew 7:15.  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 16.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 17.  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
 18.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 19.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 20.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mr Graham needs to study his Bible and learn of God's way not Graham's way. If what you quoted him saying is true.


I don't know these statements to be true, I was given a document, with these quotes, attributed to him, I asked the question, if any could correct or corroborate this information.

It is evident to me that he has been giving out the Word of God, in an effective way, whether he is saved or no, I cannot be sure of it,

If theses statements and others are true, actually, some statements on the list, I would not argue with, but others, leave me scrtching my head.

To one From one pragraph of an entire interview, one could take it out of context, however this is the most glaring one that needs no explanation.

I would not call him, unsaved, or heretical, at his age, sometimes the brain doesn't function as it did many years ago, when he could articulate his thoughts more precisely.

One thing I would like to emphasize, is that God can and has used unsaved men in ages past to proclaim the Gospel message, Charles Wesley is one, you would never get this from reading his life story, but, if you read read the life story of one who knew him, intimately, it was evident, his demeanor changed from one of fear of God, to peace and tranquility with the Lord, after a heartfelt commitment, made in the presences of him, the man I believe if my mind serve me correctly was George Whitifeld.

So, in this case I think I need to quick to hear and slow to speak..

1282  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 09, 2003, 10:42:29 PM
author  Tawhano

I can't just let this go. You made false accusations towards me that I need to address.

Petro said:  Now, you claim;

Quoting what Tawhano said at Reply#28;   "I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not."

Petro said;
You my friend,
are in denial,

Tawhano, one thing at a time...

It has occurred to me that the reason you think I am in denial and 'backpedaling' is because you do not understand what it was I clearly said. Read it again. I said I wasn't the one assuming it was you. I know the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; I am not assuming they are, because it clearly says so. It is you who assume they were not and offer only your opinion with no scriptural backup as evidence.

Well  allow me to post what you said; so that we can look at it.

Please refer back to your Reply #81 on page 6 of the "Eternal Security" thread,  you posted the following:

at Reply # 81  Tawhano said;  (I will spilt what you posted and emboldened it, so that you can read what you posted)  

(I quote)

"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? "

                                                                  "This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end."

The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they donít hold steadfast in their faith.

Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(End of Tawhano's quote)

Now that you have added this new explanation, then I beg your pardon as, perhaps I should have stated,

"you believe it, instead of you assume it",

this is your first error, because the next one, is a logical conclusion based on the first.  

And that is,................ that these of Heb 6 lost,  "their eternal life (salvation)".

I explained to you already, this viewpoint,  cannot be correct because of the two words, which drive the passage contained in these three verses, and they are the words "impossible", and "if".  And regarding the verse you refer to in Heb 3, to support what you believe, please notice the word "if" there also, it is clear from  the totality scripture, every person, who comes to FAITH, in Christ Jesus, has "received" Eternal Life presently, verse 14 of Heb 3, says;

i]if[/i], we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

That confidence spoken of  in this verse, is what begins the process which results in saving faith in Christ Jesus which is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)

Eph 1:12-14, speaks plainly of the process.

Because, everyone is held accountable under the law, until faith comes to them.  When Faith comes they is no longer under the law of commandments, but under the law of Faith (Rom 3:26-28).

If,  these had been given "eternal life (by Jesus), it would been impossible for them to lose their "eternal life".  

Because since Jesus doesn't lie.  

The doctrine of Christ is;    what God has declared about Him, thru Moses at,  Deut 18:18;  

Please follow this closely;

18  I will raise them up a Prophet .............................., and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Do you believe this to be true??

Then Jesus said;

Jhn 10
25  .....................  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
30    I and my Father are one.

The words "ETERNAL LIFE" are synonomous with "LIFE EVERLASTING.

This is the correct understanding of this passage of scripture for this reason;  

This life which is in Jesus, is given as a free gift to all who receive the free gift of faith to believe, based on the finished work of Christ at the cross, and it is a free gift of God thru the Grace of God, it has nothing to do with our performance, we are saved by the power of God, and kept by that same power, forever, to the end,  

This is why it called "Eternal Life", And,  since it was given to us, while we were yet in sin, even our sinning, (thou the evil one accuse us to the father) cannot take it from us,  because the scriptures are crystal clear, that while we were yet without strength, dead sinners................ Christ died for us. And above all else , He ever liveth to make intercession for at the throne of Grace. (Heb 7:25) for he is our High Priest who ministers at the true tabernacle not made with human hands, where he offered up his own blood for our sins. (Heb 8:1-3)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  Because the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (Rom 5:6-21)

Now, is this NOT what you believe??................if not.......... where have I, gone wrong??

If they can lose their "eternal life" (which was given them by Jesus), then the truth is they never had "eternal Life" (They may have had some other kind of life, but it was not "Eternal").   Again,,, If it can be lost or taken away, then the words of Jesus are not true;

One cannot believe to the saving of the soul one moment, and then unbelieve what they believed, to the losing of the soul the next; These never believed, they continued in unbelief, even after partaking, tasting and having been enlightened by the Holy Gohst, they new enough about the way, but turned away ("fall away", Heb 6:5), this is why they can never be brought back, to repentance, because to enter the Kingdom of God, one must be properly clothed, not in our righteous wrags, but clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here is Jesus words,

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish...  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

Have you considered these verses;

Jhn 1
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
   (Jhn 6:39-40)

So if, one has been given to Christ by the Father, HIS will, will be done in that individuals life. and whosoever; "believeth not, shall be damned".(Mk 16:16)

I haven't assumed anything, I have read your posts, and even posted your own words, and have shown you that the very Words of Jesus himself, refute what you have stated.

And you claim to believe the teachings of Christ, I am afraid, that is debateable,  unless you can clear this point up..



PS  Now as for the rest of your post, I will go thru it, as I find time, and respond as I am able.

1283  Theology / General Theology / Re:Hyper deception, in the visible church... on: May 08, 2003, 05:21:39 PM
No Deceit,

Thank you for the information, I will take time to read it.

When you say "our report", what are you referring to??

Are you an author of it.??

1284  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 08, 2003, 02:35:37 PM
Hi John here:
The thread is a good one. But lets remember that the thread says doctrine! Not peoples error. And that is fine with me also if it is openenly 'seen' sin.

Do I get my point across? In other words only the Master knows each ones heart! Or the person postings mind! It was He that said that the Wheat & Tares were to grow together.
This is hard for one to understand perhaps? Let try to clear it up. There are Wheat. And there are Tares. Then there are OPEN sinners. The Open sinners are NOT TO BE IN MEMBERSHIP for long. Or else Christ will not be there Himself. (see Josh. 7:12's last part of verse)

If OPEN SIN is taught for doctrine, one becomes apostate, and is to be 'spiritually' dealt with. Now, if a denomination fall's into this catorgory, they will be held accountable, and will in time become Christless! The candlestick will be REMOVED. Rev. 2:5.

Has the latter ever happened?? Israel of old's denomination became desolate of Christ. (Matt. 23:38) And check Rev. 3:9!
When Christ is NOT there, who takes His place while its members are still claiming to be Christians. And yes, many are STILL CHRISTIANS in ignorance.

One thinks of the great whore & her daughterharlots. They are such because of 'known error taught for Truth'! That is why Rev. 18:4 is a eternal life or eternal death matter!  

Please take note that there are no names listed here! Yet the thread was discussed, and error was the subject, NOT A SINGLE PERSON was mentioned. In fact it WAS STATED that Christ has HONEST CONVERTED SAINTS still in all apostate 'FOLDS'. See John 10:16 & again read Rev. 18:4 VERY C-L-O-S-L-E-Y!  (and yes, surely most might take offence?)

Now for the bottom line question: Of these ones in the errorous false Folds, (denomination's) Can any one ON THE FORUM READ THEIR HEARTS??? CHRIST said that He HAS OTHER SHEEP not of this Fold. Seems that their heart must be OK SO FAR, to me? And COME OUT OF HER [MY] PEOPLE
seem to establish this Truth!?

We CANNOT, nor do 'real Christians' DESIRE to read ones mind!
Gen. 4:6-7 tells one & all who it is that does this evil work!

So my thinking at least for one, is how about just leaving off the names of people in 'most' of our postings, & stick to the errorous DOCTRINES themselves, the Lord knows that the forum's are full of them! It seems to me that there is enough of this to take up a real Christian's time?



The parable of the wheat and the tares, is explained perfectly by the Lord himself , I invite you to look carefully at

at Mat 13:40, the tares in the end are all burned up, after the harvest, and these are they that perish, but grew up for a season among the wheat (children of God).

So there is no third kind of seed, if this is where you went with this idea, you tried to explain.

 He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of God(the children of the wicked one, are the tares), (the children of the kingdom are the wheat), those that aren't perish at the end, pure and simple. Ther is no need to make it more complicated than it is for those who have trouble already understanding the God Word which is able to make one wise unto salvation.

God allows the tares to grow with the wheat, so that none of the wheat is accidently plucked up with the tares, but lets them both grow together so, the ALL of the wheat comes to bear fruit, then will the harvest begin.

Do you agree??


1285  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How can you be sure the Bible is inspired of God? on: May 06, 2003, 11:59:59 PM

Frankly, I don't think much of it.

What does this statement mean?? It just sounds like gobble di gook.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on someone's statement unless they are coherent and show biblical doctrinal understanding.

I have no idea who this fellow is.


1286  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 06, 2003, 07:10:19 PM

You said it, you have been arguing all along, the problem is that you are unable to understand what has been said because you argue, agaist the very words spoken in scripture, words of life.

You simply want them to mean what you want them to mean, you've asked for my view point, not cause your interested in knowing what the scriptures mean themselves, but that you may further your camps agenda.

Just because you come to a verse, where Jesus appears to contradict himself, doesn't mean one should ignore His words, they should encourage you to find out where the apparent contradiction lies, and only then will it become apparaent that it never is in what He says, it is, in what one interprets it by comparing it to viewpoints shared by others,

Thank you, but I am not interested in knowing viewponts that disagree with what it already set in stone.

And who made me your teacher, anyhow... it is obvious to me you came you preconceived teachings perpetuated by those who have itching ears.

You are mad because I pointed out your backpeddaling, after you claimed you never bevlieved what was obvious from the begining, if you are willing to be taught, I encourage you to search the scriptures and in them you find the truth, but don't ask anyone other the the Spirit of Truth, it is an insult to Him, to seek wisdom and understanding elsewhere.

As I see it, if you really believe the words of Jesus, you apparently don't see a contradiction in the idea, one must keep  his commandments or perish (never mind I pointed out He never said that at all, He did speak of keeping the Law of Moses being necessary for eternal life when asked by a certain man (Mat 19:16-19), and the verses I have pointed out to you apparently don't register, with you since, this is why you say, my mind is made up and no one can change it.

So what's the point?? of continuing to argue. That was evident from the begining, when you declared yourself to be a "free agent".
1287  Theology / General Theology / Re:Communion on: May 06, 2003, 04:50:59 PM
Alot is made of the word "eucharist", as though it has a mystic or mysterious meaning.

It simply means "thanksgiving", it has nothing to do with what some weant it to sygnify.


1288  Theology / General Theology / Re:Christ Crucified? on: May 06, 2003, 04:45:32 PM
Is God unjust for this, NO, those who never wanted to hear, or understand remain in ignorance., while those who hear and receive the good word of truth, are given what they desire, and what is that?? But, to be forgiven of their sin, these then are His People while, those who had no interest, get what they want, and in the end, everybody is happy; because both receive exactly what they desire.  

I still would not call this free will, simply because while in sin, they are in bondage to sin, the fact remains, that they are offered forgiveness of sin the same as everyone else, but "they loved their sin, more than they love the truth"..and so to these Jesus says;

Jhn 8
21  Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22  Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If the following are  true statements the bible gives us;

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Then all deserve to be judged as Sammy has stated;

And if  God the creator who loves to love and be loved, chooses to save some by his grace, and desires to save a people for himself from among those who perish, whats the problem with that..Doesn't a Sovereign Creator judge have the right to do what seems right to Him.

If all are condemned because All are sinners, can't the judge of all the earth, pardon those who seek mercy from judgement acknowledging they are worthy of death.  

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Rom 9:22-23)

It is no secret, God has made it known from the begining to man, he will pardon those who repent, if come by faith, He will even supply the faith necessary to believe Him.

Whats wrong with that..


1289  Theology / General Theology / Re:Christ Crucified? on: May 06, 2003, 04:43:21 PM
quote] posted by Rest,
I am interested in seeing views concerning the death of Christ, whether they agree or not with my own.

Question: Christ died on the cross. For whom did he die?

Please feek free to "speak your mind" or quote scripture.


Reply #3
No semantics.  Did He die and take away the sin of those who ultimately don't believe in Him?


To answer your second question first, the answer,  would have to be , No.

For this reason, the manifested Grace of God is in the love of his dear Son, and the promise of the gift of Faith, is given to them that believe Him (God the Father).

Believing God..,  is the question, which must be settled in ones mind before one can understand, that it is Faith in the Word of God, which He put in the mouth of His Son and,  spoken to all that will Hear the word of God which Jesus spoke, that saves.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God Rom 10:17

So, everyone who hears the word of God potentially can receive faith, and one must have faith to believe.

Here are some verses, which develops this line of doctrine;

Jesus said;

Jhn 12
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.  
47   And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.  
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.  
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
I might add the verse which, goes along with what Rest has said;

Now please note verse 49 above, and compare Gods own words , which were prophecied by Moses at ;

Deut 18
17  And the LORD said unto me, ...........................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

There are many people that believe in Jesus, but do not believe his words

Case in point, Mormons, JW's, Roman Catholics, and even some who consider themselves saved by him, because they have had some kind of experience and many others, who in spite of Jesus's own words, promising "Eternal Life" to whomsoever will; deny this is so. they say, only if you keep the commandments, which means they  believe and even teach, that once saved one must obey the commandments, if one sins, he forfeits "eternal ife"
This is denial and rejection of Jesus's own words making Him out to be a liar...in my opinion, these are those whom have been deceived into believing they are the sheep of God, when in fact they are the deceived goats spoken of in (Mat 25, or Mat 7:21-24)

The answer to your first question, is not difficult if one considers what I have written in response to your second question.

But lets look at the question, closely;

Question: Christ died on the cross. For whom did he die?

We read in;

Mat 1
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

It is not hard to ascertain from scripture who HIS people are, we know He (GOD) chose a man from all the peoples of the earth, whom, HE made promises to of an eternal nature, His name is Abraham, these promise were extended to Abraham's children, they are called the "seed of the promise", and in the new covenant the "seed of the promise: is defined and revealed for us, read;

Rom 9
6  .................................For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So then, these are His people whom are spoken of, and then again He pin points who these are;

Rom 4
 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

So what then, potentially the whole world could have been saved by the shedding of the blood of Jesus, but because some won't believe Gods own Words, spoken of by Jesus, they are not given the free gift of Faith necessary to believe to the saving of the soul.


1290  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Interesting quotes from founding fathers on: May 06, 2003, 10:57:32 AM
Even though many would claim this country, is not and was not really founded by Christians, history proves other wise, The Magna Carta*, is consider the first of a long succesive line of important foundational documents, that led to the establishing of this country, flowing with milk and honey, the promised land for those seeking a country and a nation, where they could worship God, without fear of persecution, or government interference and in honoring God and thanking Him, for reaching the land, entered into a contract in the signing of the Mayflower Compact of 1620.

* While The Magna Carta was not written nor signed by early pioneers of the this nation, it planted the seed of hope to those people who sought to be free from religious persecution.

Mayflower Compact 1620

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten,................. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith,............"

Many liberals would argue, that The Mayflower Compact, The Declaration of Independence, are all abolished documents that have actually been discarded and superceded by the Constitution, the fact is, it is one of many key foundational stones, if not the cornerstone to the creation of this One Nation under God.

For your eyes, I have included a website for US Hist'l Documents.

Chronological US Historical Documents


Magna Carta 1215


KNOW THAT BEFORE GOD, for the health of our soul and those of our ancestors and heirs, to the honour of God................

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