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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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1336  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 20, 2003, 10:55:35 PM
What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life?



The "final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life" is their own testimony.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:10)

It is no wonder to me there are those who claim to be of the elect, but do not believe the Saviors own words, why should they believe, ours , who believe to the saving of the soul.

We are "SECURE IN OUR FAITH" because we believe the words of Jesus.

He said;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

Those who claim to be Christians, who believe they can lose their election, agree with all other unregenerated religious pretenders, that they indeed can.

So, is Jesus a liar, eternal life doesn't exist, and He won't be able to raise some up at the last day?

This is a question they need to answer for themselves.

This should be cause for concern to those who call themselves elect.



1337  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 18, 2003, 09:11:13 PM
By the way, to answer asaph's question, while not being necessarily a rigid Calvinist, since I believe, the points do not necessarily limit those who believe what Calvinism teaches in it's totality (it is not limited to 5 simplistic points).

Those of us who agree with the teaching which Calvinism proposes, KNOW without a doubt, that we are ETERNALLY SECURE in our faith, because the blood which bought us, paid for ALL, that is the TOTALITY of ALL of the SINS WE HAVE EVER COMMITTED and WILL COMMIT until the day we die in this body made from the cursed dust of this earth.

We do not deny the blood that bought us..

On the other hand stout Arminians, deny the blood that bought them, claiming, sin can undo what Grace accomplished for them, let me remind these, that this position is heretical according to scripture.

Having said this, I would qualify my statement by saying that among the goats who teach this lie, are sheep, who have been deceived by the father of lies who leads these teachers, who after saying this "that they can lose their salvation", expose their error, by then claiming they can be re-saved by the same blood, which they claim, was insufficient in that it was not able to cover the sin that caused them to fall away.

I say to these deceived sheep, think about your position which you embrace, it is obvious you are being lead around by the nose, desiring to hear these false teachers, rather than the Word which saved them.


1338  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 18, 2003, 08:52:03 PM
Posted by Sower as reply #2

Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel.


You seem to focus quite a bit on Calvinism, and seem to overshadow the sovereignty of God, in putting forth your position, as thou man, by his own inate desire or ability is able to believe to the saving of the soul, apart from the miraculeous intervention  by God himself in drawing men who are called, to Christ.  
While having a correct understanding that Election is also a perogative of God, you  state the Calvinism teaches that only the elect can be saved; while this is true, in the end, Calvinism does not teach the Gospel is only for the elect; it is apparent when studying scripture, one can conclude that once a person becomes saved (regenerated by the Holy Spirit) that, that person is identified to be one of the elect, and this truth is made after the fact, and then one finds out he was also chosen in Him, from before the foundation of the world.  (Eph 1:4)

You appear to deny the very teaching of scripture that "no one comes to the father except by me" (Jhn 14:6) and "No man comes to me except the father draw him" (Jhn 6:44),  again "....and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."  (Mat 11:27) And in the end, the elect are those who were chosen and predestinated in Him unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph1:5) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph1:11)

Grace is Gods business, it is He who imparts it to whomsoever He desires, it has nothing to do with man at all, other than salvation is offered to all men by this Grace which is Gods and Gods alone, to do with it what He pleases.

True Calvinists, who understand the teachings well, place the teaching in it's rightful place, "with God".

Calvinism explains Total Depravity in a nut shell in the following paragraph, you don't seem to understand it, allow me to give it to you, and then if you are unable to understand it, please feel free to raise your point, we will see if perhaps we can clarify it for you.

Total Depravity -  When man fell, sin permeated every part of his personality. This includes his thinking, emotions, and will. Total depravity does not mean he is necessarily intensely sinful, it only means that sin has encompassed to his entire being.
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins.
This is why 1Cor 2:14 states; "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  
Any man while in the fallen state is unable to "know nor receive, Christ"
Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. Man will never seek God on his own (he is in bondage to sin, and has no free will as many contend); he will never have a desire for God or righteousness.
This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." Since man is totally incapable of seeking God, he will never find salvation through Jesus Christ on his own. The only time a person seeks this salvation is when God inserts a "desire for God" in his heart.

If this is not your understanding of the condition of fallen man, and what the scriptures teach concerning him,  then please explain??

And while you are at it, explain to me, how any man in his natural state, comes to Christ, whithout God the Holy Spirit first working in his heart to break down his resistance to the Gospel of Grace in him.??

On the other hand;

If you agree with the Calvinsts teaching of Total Depravity, then what credit do you give  man which allows him receive GRACE, that he might be saved by faith??

We see Salvation as a work of God, the natural man is unable, and has no power to answer in the affirmative towards Christ in order to be saved, this is only wishfull thinking, by proud men.

Please note; All of those who believe they somehow received Grace by a faith they conjured up from within themselves, and are unable to recognize that it was God working in them to will and to do of HIS good pleasure, believe they can also lose it by sinning, go figure....

This idea only reimforces to those who know and believe the truth, that these remain in their sin of unbelief.

Give God the Glory, don't glory in yourselves!!


1339  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Possible Spiritual Tragedies on: April 18, 2003, 05:47:17 PM
Amen, like the prodigal in Lk 15:17, anyone who are children of God, born of the will of God, may return to him, from his wonderings; but first must come to theirs senses, and confess sin.

My question is, is a child of God bent on wondering away in willfull sin? That is to say, calculated sin, where he thinks about it and then does it.

I would say, he should examine himself to prove himself, if he is in the faith he claims.


1340  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 18, 2003, 05:32:53 PM
Those that teach, you can lose the free gift, and claim faith in Jesus for their salvation, deny the blood that bought them, they don;t even realize what they espouse,.

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

It's nice to see you back on Christians Unite. It is nice to know that our trust and confidence is in Jesus, and not ourselves. One of my favorite phrases comes from a beautiful hymn, "Jesus Paid it All, All to Him I owe". My words are simple, but I say them often, "GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!"

In Christ.

An a howdy to you, BEP,

I say Amen to yours on the subject.

Regardless how many feel on whether this is a great truth or not, (it wouldn't change it one iota) and we should  be shouting it from the rooftops, we should not let it slip away from us, and we be believe it, because we understand the teaching of it, and we teach it, because the next generation of soldiers of the cross need to understand it; it is a fou8ndational doctrine to our faith,  because it is grounded in the truth of the Living Word of God.


1341  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 18, 2003, 04:08:45 AM
Hi blackeyedpeas, suzie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe that one can lose their salvation also believe a gospel of salvation by works. Many of them will deny this but no matter which way you look at their doctrine it is up to the individual to live in such a way as not to lose their salvation. Therefore their salvation is based in their own works, which is condemned through out the Bible.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are saved by grace through faith not by our own filthy works of righteousness. Good works are a result of salvation while salvation is never a result of our own works. After one has been saved by God’s grace their life will reflect the salvation they received by the good works that God will do through them.



Good Post,

Emphasis, must be made on the gospel of works being another gospel, and anyone who teaches another gospel than the one taught in scripture and delivered by the Apostles, let that person be accursed as the scriptures state.

Those that teach, you can lose the free gift, and claim faith in Jesus for their salvation, deny the blood that bought them, they don;t even realize what they espouse,.

As hard as it is to state these truths concerning them, it needs to be said, to refute their untruths.

Again well put, give them the Word.

1342  Theology / General Theology / Re:I have a Question on: April 18, 2003, 03:39:45 AM
and i'm a bit confused here so if any one can answer it i'd be much obliged.

M't:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
M't:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

ok i have heard many people say that the law is fullfilled in Christ, well he fullfilled them on the cross.
but in that verse it tells us that Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

was the cross the fullfilment of the law or is his return the fulfilment of the law?

Boiler room,

Excellent question.

As I understand the scriptures, salvation will be offered, to any person, until the last day, as I understand it the last day includes the entire Day of the Lord period (1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth), then the heavens and the earth shall be rolled up as a scroll, and a new and heaven and earth shall be revealed.

The first covenant was made with Abraham, the law was given to the nation of Israel centuries later, together with promises to them who kept the law, the law was not given that by keeping it anyone who kept it perfectly could be saved, but that a man could examine himself to determine whether he had sinned against God, IT was and still is a SCHOOLMASTER which brings men to Christ (Gal3:24), because of the nation of Israel failed to evangelize the nations of the world in the knowledge of God; God found it necessary to annul the first that a second covenant could be made with those who are of the same faith as Abraham, these then are the true children (offspring) and spiritual children of Abraham  (Gal3:7)

Those who are saved are no longer under the *Law , (contrary to heretical teaching within the Christian community, one who is,  saved once and truly receives remission of sin and is regenerated and receives the true baptism with the Holy Spirit (Mat3:11,Lk3:16,Jhn 1:33) that person can never be die again, spiritually, because he is no longer under the law of Sin and Death (Moses Law) but under a new law the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom8:2) , he has been translated into the kingdom of the Lord Jesus (Col1:13), physically, he will still die, but this death, only affects the physical body.

*Christians who do not understand the teaching of scripture and confuse themselves, by disconnecting the ten commandments from the ordinances, but the facts is if you ask any Jew, how many commandments make up the Law of Moses, and they will answer upwards of 600, actually make up the Law handed down by Moses at Mt Sinai.

The breaking of the Law is still sin (1Jhn3:4), sin stands between God and his people, this is why, Jesus taught us how to pray,

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 (Mat 6:9-13)

That our sins would not hinder our prayers.

There are in our generation, just as there have been in all generations since Abrahams, many who seek God thru the keeping of His Law, and Gods intention is to save those who truly seek him, and the Law is like that straight and narrow road that leads home, only in this case it leads everyone who yearns for truth to Him who said;  

"I am the way,the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

And the scriptures teach;

Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The same that was imputed unto Abraham (Rom 3,4) when he beleived God, is imputed unto us by faith in God who raised Jesus from the dead.


1343  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 18, 2003, 02:14:59 AM
Greetings Everyone, it is good to have the site up and running again.  It is ashame, there are those who would go around creating such chaos, but we know who is ultimately behind these types, I thank those who have worked diligently to provide thos eof us who engoy sharing the good word with the uncaring and the deceived of the world, trusting that somewhere al;ong the line, the sharing and discussing of God's truth will take seed in a dying world.

I see it didn't take long to bring up a controversial subject, but it doesn't have to be; most of my ideas and understandings of doctrines throughout my 20 some odd year walking with the Lord, have taught me to not trust unto my own wisdom or understanding, but to seek the wisdom necessary to understand the things which are not humanly understood with the wisdom this world supplies, and this is one reason why it has become controversial, simply because, members of the church allow themselves to be taught by wolves dressed in sheeps clothing.

When one reads, some of the responses herein, one who understands the doctrine, can see, why these would make such responses, seen they are not acquainted at all, with the meaning of the letters, nor the history of how  this acronym, TULIP came to be.

But thank God, history is a good teacher and it together with the  Word of God, can teach those who have misconceptions, and are ignorant of the teaching of Calvinism.

First of all, it would be good to review, the historical record of how the TULIP came to be.

Although many people attribute the TULIP to John Calvin, he wasn't the one who developed it.

Someone already has written herein, about John Calvin and Jacobos Arminius, it would be well to note that Arminius, was a student at the school, Calvin started at Geneva, where he taught Pastors.

And, above all else, that the teachings put forth by Arminius, where not new, but in fact a modified version of the teachings proposed in the early church around the 3rd century which were adjured "heretical"; and this is the place where I must also insert the fact that ArminianISM was also declared "heretical" at the Synod Council of the Cannons at Dort 1618, but as one can see, these heresies just as the false teachers who expound them are still in our midsts.

About a year after James Arminius died, his followers became concerned about some of the "harsh" doctrines coming from the Churches in Holland. So, on January 14, 1610, they presented their five main concerns to the States-General. This document was first known as the Remonstrance (protest) and later on became known as the Five Articles of Faith. The ideas in this document were not new, of course; they had been around for over a thousand years (as previously noted). The Five Articles of Faith, however, did consolidate these ideas into a format that was concise and understandable.

The Synod examined the articles and rejected them. They didn't, however, feel that a mere rejection was sufficient. As a result, they wrote a document (first known as the Counter-Remonstrance) that countered each of the five points. The five chapters they wrote embodied the Calvinistic position and later became know as the "Five Points of Calvinism." Later, the word TULIP was coined to quickly identify the Five Points of Calvinism.

The official and final response to the Armenian's Five Articles of Faith came from the Synod of Dordrecht (1618). The first month was spent on other issues, but the last 180 days were spent addressing the Five Articles of Faith. The Synod wrote what became known as the Cannons of Dordrecht, later shortened to Cannons of Dort.

Regardless of what some have written herein, these are the facts, of what the five points of Calvinisn, state;

T =  When man fell, sin permeated his entire being. This fall was so complete that man had no desire for God and righteousness. Man is so totally enslaved by sin that he can only choose evil; he cannot chose good. He is incapable of choosing God and His salvation. Man in totally blind and deaf to the gospel. Apart from a supernatural intervention from God, the gospel message absolutely has no affect on a person. Total depravity is also called total inability.

U = God has chosen some people to go to Heaven and other people to go to Hell. This choice is not based on any qualities of the person being elected. This selection is not based on God's foreknowledge of who will "get saved" in the future.

L = God limited His atonement to only those who are elect. When Jesus died on the cross, He did not die for the sins of the whole world, He only died for those He wanted to go to Heaven.

I = The grace that God extends to the elect cannot be refused. God puts into the hearts of the elect an irresistible desire to turn to Him and accept His salvation. This desire is so overpowering that no one can refuse it.

P = Since God has determined who will get save and they cannot resist His call, they are unconditionally and eternally secure in that election. Therefore, those who have been chosen to be saved will always stay saved. They cannot resist or loose their salvation.

asaph's site which he posted, emphasizes what Calvinism claims AFTER we are saved,  note the word AFTER, noone who understand's the teaching of the Calvinists, would make some of the outlandish claims Calvinism teaches, all these do is expose their ignorance of the true teachings.

Charles Spurgeon (a Calvinist) said;

"The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straightline, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the Gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once."

Dr. H.A. Ironside, Pastor of D.L. Moody Memorial Chruch, at Chicago, Ill, While delivering a message on the Lord's Day on the subject of "Eternal Security" (which is what the ArminianCalvin positions are ultimately reduced to) said:

"Let me say that my object was not controversy nor the besting of an opponent but rather the edification and enlightment of the people of God, that thye knowledge of the truth might deliver from legality and give true libertuy." (April 24,1934)

Since how, one views these great truths ultimately determines his or hers position on "eternal security"; it would seem vital, that Christians should strive to learn the true teaching, of the two sides, in all my years of studying and sharing this subject whith the other side, I have yet to encounter anyone that believes in ArminianISM, who is shocked to find out, the protestant church has adjured the teaching "HERETICAL"; it would seem to me a Christian could be deceived about this teaching, and not know the history behind it, but another matter altogether to come to the truth of this fact, that the teaching was found to be "Heretical", and simply ignore this and discount it as nonsense;  it is almost as thou it matters not to them, this is so.

ArminianISM, denies eternal security, and further goes on to teach the Christian must observe the law to continue on the road to salvation;  the scriptures teach;

 "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."  (Gal3:10)

I find no need to go into the pro or cons for either teaching, it has been extensively discussed, and there is no lack of positions for or asgainst the points, and most all are the result of mis understandings or presuppositions, which amount to nonsense.



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