Harry,

So are you saying, the Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament??

Because as you know, Jesus claimed to be the same "I am" of the Old Testament, and John opens his Book of Revelation with this revelation;  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), where He is revealed as that same God..

Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

You may not understand what or whom Jesus, claimed to be, here at this passage, but the Jews who took up stones , understood perfectly well, that He stated, that He was God..

when He said;;

I and my father are one

This is the way, we understand the passage, and we agree, Jesus is the same Creator God of the Old Testament..

He still speaks today, to whosoever, will hear;

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.  (Jhn 8:24)  NWT

Thanks for sharing this truth..


Petro

The Divine Trinity is in Our Lord Jesus Christ. That's why He asked that we follow Him, to take up the cross, that He is the way, the truth and the life

The Father and He are one as Soul and Body or as Divine and Human in Jesus Christ. In Jesus Christ the Divine and Human make one God, as in John 14: 8," He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

This is what the Lord meant:
"I am come from God" (John 8:42) - the Body came forth from the Soul.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5:19) - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 16) - The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

"This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) - the Divine Human in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth.

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

"No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6) - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it.

All Christians should approach and worship the Lord only, because He the Father in the Human. Jehovah God became Man so we may approach Him as Man. It is the only way we can be able to understand God, by approaching Him as a Man.

 The Lord's prayer was meant for Him, not another person. He is the Our father in heaven.

Harry[/b]

Harry,

I see, you do understand exactly what the Jews understood, when Jesus, said "I and my Fatherm are one"

This has only been revealed to you by The Father from heaven..Praise Him..

You are correct..I agree totally with you.  Good post.

[Here's an error The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:]

author  AngelicMan

                           Here's an error
 The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:
 

Well this is interesting....How do you explain the next verse; it is one of many, which state plainly, states, that Jesus, is one and the same..

Feel free to compare this with, your verses;

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.

I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.
 
I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.

 

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.  (Lk 2:11)

And the Apostle Paul testifies; as he speaks concerning Jesus;

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.   (1 Tim 4:10)

and again;

  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
  Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
(2 Tim 2:7-10)

  But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
  To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.  (Titus 1:3-4)

Certainly if, after having escaped defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,......... (2 Pet 2:20)



So Jesus the SaviorGod,  is not a God, He is the one and only creator God, as the scripture declares at Jhn 1:1..and rrevealed to be Jesus at vs 14 of the Gospel of John..


Petro

[I and my Father are one]

Harry,

So are you saying, the Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament??

Because as you know, Jesus claimed to be the same "I am" of the Old Testament, and John opens his Book of Revelation with this revelation;  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), where He is revealed as that same God..

Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

You may not understand what or whom Jesus, claimed to be, here at this passage, but the Jews who took up stones , understood perfectly well, that He stated, that He was God..

when He said;;

I and my father are one

This is the way, we understand the passage, and we agree, Jesus is the same Creator God of the Old Testament..

He still speaks today, to whosoever, will hear;

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.  (Jhn 8:24)  NWT

Thanks for sharing this truth..


Petro

asaph,


oookkk..

At least we agree, he did it all because of his Love..

Blessings,

Petro

This in no way means that I merited salvation; I simply responded to the invitation (which I could have refused).

.

asaph

asaph,

Praise God, your response was based on believing what God teaches, them that hear.
So hearing  may be the most important part of this whole thing.   Since there are those that hear the same message, but do not agree with it.
Perhaps, it is because God gives the hearing to hear with;

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.  (Mat 13:13-16)

Blessings,
Petro

[begun]

asaph,

Here is a verse, for you;

Phil 1
6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I suppose, one would have decide, when God began, this work in you. In order to understand the rest of the scriptures that deal with this subject.

Perseverence of the Holy Spirit will accomplish it not perseverence of the flesh; this why the apostle was able to say;

Phil3
3  .....  we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

If ALL are dead, condemned to eternal judgement by fire, and there is none that "hear nor understand" or "receive or know, the things of God" , and God  "chooses to save some" how can someone say, it is because I believed in Jesus.

There is no biblical basis for this thought or teaching, the scripture is clear;

This why Paul at Romans 9:15; recalls the Words of Moses, where God speaking says;

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

and again,

17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Those  (unbelievers, ALL, which really includes everyone)who are "raised up", such as Pharaoh, are they able to believe anything by any natural power or strength they possess.??

It is simple, and yet, so difficult to comprehend, and all because people are to smart for their own good; they try to reason, that;

yea, I was condemned to die as a sinner, but then, I believed myself, this was my part!

It sounds so naive..

If everyone is a corpse, on what basis, can they claim to hear anything, much less believe.

Jesus said; Let the dead bury the dead

Listen,  All whom God sanctifies, He will Justify, in Christ Jesus

And the basis for this is His, Sovereignty (He chooses those who are ultimately saved), and the Love He has for His Son, it Has nothing to do with God looking forward in future time to determine what you will or won't do.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

I do have a question concerning eternal security. If God is sovereign before salvation, why does He lose His sovereignty after salvation? For after we are truly saved, then should we sin, why does God no more have the sovereignty to rejects us outright? After all, He can do as He wishes and would be right in doing so, because sin separates us from God.

This question, says to me you haven't grasped the teaching of Gods sovereignty, and not doubt, for how could anyone understand what he doesn't want to, accept or believe.

It is precisely the Sovereignty of God, which brings those whom He separated (Sanctified) to fruition, in conforming them to the image of His dear Son.

So God would not be unjust in any case. So if one answers and says it's because God binds himself to His promise, then why not say He binds Himself to His promise to save such as call upon Him while they are yet sinners, without imposing a willing spirit upon a passive sinner

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  (Rom 10:13-17)

Isasaih, said Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?  (53:1)

One must hear the Words of God before he can believe God, and he must "believe HIM first" before, he can believe the Gospel, plain and simply., those whe reject Gods Word, perish because they do not believe His testimony, that He is the creator God.


Don't ask me how cavemen were saved?, or OT peoples, they are simply hypothetical questions to distract from the scriptures.

So why can't man have a free choice in the matter without some saying that this merits salvation? Do you follow my thinking?

This is the question, the answer to, has to be understood in the right context of what Gods word says, so, that the man of God will not appear to place more emphasis on mans role in Gods Plan and lessen the Sovereign role of God.

The only thing the natural man can believe and actually it is simply agreeing with is the truth.

And, what is the truth??  What God says:

That He is a sinner, and dead to God and the things of God, and there is nothing that he can do about his situation, and should he die in his sin, he will perish in eternal fire.

Only when man agrees with this(can it be said he believes God) this, can the Gospel of deliverance from sin, be understood by him., and is understood because God the Spirit gives him understanding, contrast this with (1 Cor 2:14),

So, when mans faith is in the Word of God, only then will God the Father give this man to the Son, who will in no wise, cast him out,

And I give him eternal life and he will never perish., says Jesus.

Rom 4
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Rom 11
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, you can see, the Gospel, is Gods, and because he draws men to Christ, none receive faith, lest they believe Him first;

One must carefully read and consider Gods words to understanb this;  

Listen carefully, this verse, doesn't say anything about man, possessing the faith necessary to please God, it simply states, that without "faith" man cannot please God;

however it does matter of factly state, men must believe Him

Heb 11
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


The problem as I see it, althought the Godpel is simple to understand, men lessen Gods importance in it, and magnify theirs., as thought they produce the faith necessary to come to Jesus.

This explains why, many can be deceived into believeing, they are known of Him, because they know something about Him, and why there are so many different teachings which don't square up with scripture.

The verse you have given, makes the point perfectly,

John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hearing Gods, word produces Faith, and it cannot be produced in the hearer, if one does not believe Him.

I am having a hard time believing that I was totally passive concerning my will to believe.

Any one who seeks the truth of Gods Word is not passive, I am afraid you focus on the wrong thing, when making this satetement.

It is God's word that motivates the passive hears, and, this is why the scriptures state;  He works to draw men to Himself.

In order to give the Gospel, we need to understand it..

Blessings,

Petro

asaph,

While having dinner, I thought of this verse;

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God can work in any Christian to "will and do of His good pleasure", after being saved.

What makes it hard to believe or understand that this same God, if when you were a poor lost sinner by the power of the Holy Spirit in drawing you to Christ worked to bring to an end your unbelief and rebellion, do you think for one moment that He does not have power to cause you to will his will even while in unbelief to  bring you to believe and to carry on to fruition the work He began.

There is no question about it, when God draws men to Jesus, it is by the power of the Spirit, this is why Jesus, can say authoritatively "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and again"all that father give me shall come to me", "not one will be missing" ; whom He is using today to bring all of Jesus's enemy's that they might be made His footstool.

Just a thought,


Blessings,
Petro

I don'tdisagree with the ultimate thought, you are bringing forth, but Jhn 7, is not a part of Rom 9, in the sense that this chapter is specifically speaking of Gods sovereignty, notice the rest of the verse, concerning the clay and the potter, the context is His will being imposed upon His creation.

Good thought though, and ultimnately it is as you have expressed it.

Blessings

Petro

[6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.]

Bill asks ,  What about Romans 9


I have my own theories, but I wanted to ask the general public. What is Paul's point in Romans 9? Is it absolute predestination at the choice of God? Or does Paul's argument about the majority of Jews lost in unbelief point to something different? One more thing, if Paul is speaking of absolute predestination, why does Paul wrap up his argument by saying "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!" If the unbelieving Jews were objects of wrath prepared for destruction before the foundation of the world, then why did Paul say they did not stumble beyond recovery?

All responses are sincerely appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

I guess it depends on, how one understands, verses, 6-8, in my opinion, understanding these is crucial to understanding what Paul is speaking about, in this chapter.
6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Sovereignty of God and election, is the main focus in this chapter, and as one can see, by following verse 6; all of natural Israel is not all of Spiritual Israel, contrasting the children of the nation with the childrern of promise.  And of course verse 7, clarifies this clearly, they that are of the natural seed of Abraham and the result is they are not the children of the promise, because the seed in shall be called  in Isaac.

Verse 8, drives the point home, the natural seed of Abraham are not the children of God, because the children of  God (promise) are that seed.

So the question then is who are they??, Rom 4:16, has already told us, that they who are of the same faith as Abraham, are counted as the seed.

 How can they be identified,??  They do the works of Abraham, (Jhn 8:39)

So it stands to reason, one would ask;  What was Abraham's works.??

This is a fair question, Jesus said ;  This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 and the scripture says, this about Abraham,;

Rom 4

4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteouness.

So then, one can see Abraham was faithful to the Word of Jesus, he obeyed and believed and this is what the scripture says, was counted unto him, for righteousness.

So at verse 31 it says;

31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They thought they could attain, righteouness by keeping-doing the Law, but we are told this is impossible, because the law, was never given so that by keeping it perfectly one could attain righteousness. (Rom 3:20) the knowledge of sin, is understood by the law.

(And the law is a schoolmaster that brings those who are under it, to Christ.) (Gal3:24)

An in Romans 11:11; they stumbled that through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

And, if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (vs 15)

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  (Rom 11:22-23)

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. (Rom 9:16)

So Romans 9, is about the sovereignty of God, and election.
He does the chosing that in the end He should be praise..


Petro

[THAT HE MIGHT PRAISED AND GLORIFIED.]

God is not under obligation to save anyone,

For ALL have sinned, and fall  short of the Glory of God.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God the Creator only saves men, becauses He loves to love and be loved, and for that great love which He has for His Son, some of mankind become benefactors only because of His Great Mercy and Grace, THAT HE MIGHT PRAISED AND GLORIFIED.

Yet some say; He saved me cause I excersiced my "free will", and ok'd it..

 I don't think so.....

Petro

[To the praise of the glory of his grace]

Why would I say this??

While reading Ehp 1, I realized He does all things for himself, that He might be praised, listen to these verses;

Eph 1
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

According to verse 5, He has predestinated Christians that His Glory might be praised,  the majesty of his very person,  might be praised, this is the reason why He has appointed those whom He redeems from the condemnation of death.

Verse 12, to the end that Christaians,  first trusted in Christ, should be the praise of his Glory

13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

The above verses tells us, the Holy Spirit, is given as a pledge of  inheritance with a view to the redemption of Gods own purchased possession, unto the praise of His Glory

God does everything concerning Salvation, so that He should be praised
God does not save people primarily so they can spend eternity in heaven, He saves people primarily so that He may be Praised[/b]  

So that the majesty of His person should be exalted and honored as it deserves  to be..

So salvation is of great benefit, for those who are saved, but, it is not the ultimate end, salvation is part of the means to the ultimate end of the glory of God.

God does everything for HIMSELF.

See;  Phil 2:11, 2 Cor 4:15,

And this  is where everyones hope should be the Glory of God (Rom 5:2; not in themselves (2 Cor 10:17-18)

Therefore whether you eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. (1 Cor 10:31)

So then, we have a totally Sovereign God, doing all things for one purpose, HIS OWN GLORY, that He might be glorified.

This, doesn't sit well, with some who call or consider themselves christians, this is what they say;

"I don't like to be told, God is in total control, doing everything for Himself; ...............

"what about my sovereignty"??, what about my "free will"??, "what about my glory"??
"what about me"??, "what about my control"??, "what about my importance"??

Those that think this way, show they are still under their sin of rebellion against God..

This is Gods reply to you;  O man;

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  (Rom 9:15-21)

And the Apostle Paul, exhorts all of us; while it is still called today,

2 Cor 13
5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6  But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Blessings,  
Petro

Early 57,

Actually, speaking in tongues, is what occured at Pentecost. (Acts 2:4), they spoke to men, not God, and men understood them, contrast this, with 1 Cor 14:2-4.

The gift of divers tongues, is not the same thing, because, this is not understood by men, because who speaketh in a tingue he speaketh mysteries in the spirit, 1Cor 14:2.

I think this is where the confusion lies..

Also, see Acts 10:46, Cornelius, and his household began speaking in tongues, as Peter spoke the Gospel to them, and they,

45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note that no one who came with Peter, when they heard them speak in tongues, asked for an interpretation, they all heard and understood, what was being said;  

vs 46  ......................"they heard them speak in tongues and magnify God"

I think "and magnify god", meant that they glorified Jesus; the reason why I say this is because, they all understood that they also had received the Holy Spirit, as they had on the day of Pentecost.

Their answer might have had something to do with 1 Cor 12:3..


Anyhow, Praise the Lord..


Blessings,

Petro

[that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father]

Continued from previous post, to Tawhano's reply #35

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (Jhn 6:45-47)


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (jhn 14:10)

The words Jesus speaks are the words God puts in his mouth, remember Deut 18:18, and as you know God, is doing the selection of all those who he gives to Jesus, so the belief needed before He can be given to Jesus, is centered around Gods own words, which Jesus speaks even today, one must believe God, first; how can anyone believe Jesus, if one does not believe God first, only then will this persoin be given to Jesus, and Jesus will baptize this person with the Holy Spirit.

3. Q. And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don't first repent?

A.  To sum, up what I have told you, (I know I have given you this already), hear is the order according to scripture;  Jesus said;

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.  (Jhn 6:45)

1.  Hear, the word of truth. (Rom 10:17)

2. Trust, one must trust the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. (Mk 1:15)

3.  Beleive God, Faith to believe in Jesus, is a gift of God, not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast (Eph2:8-9)

4.  Sealed, Filled, and Baptized may happen simultaneously, I don't know, at this point, but this is something Jesus does, and this same Conforter, who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil1:6)

Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#17 by Petro
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

Tawhano, asks;

Here again you say we must believe, but you have been arguing all along that there is nothing we can do and our belief isn't sufficient enough, that we need the Holy Spirit for our belief to be good enough. You are going in circles; Jesus was straightforward and told us that we are to open the door to our salvation.

John 10
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

And what do the scriptures teach us on how we open that door? I've shared these verses with you many times and there are many more that say the same thing.

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Your attention is invited to Rev 3:19:20, above, your understanding of this passage is in error, these are beloved of Jesus, as verse 19 points out, contrast this verse with verse 8, where He speaking specifically to the church at Phildelphia, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:, yet the door at the church at Laodecia was shut, whether the door was shut by man, that is to say they had departed from Him, since ultimetly He is that door, is not clear, what is clear is that He was rebuking them.


One thing you must learn to do, is listen carefully, and not jump to conclusions, if I have given you the impression, that one must possess the Holy Spirit before they come to faith in Christ, this is not correct, I don't believe I have said anything of the kind, inherent in what you believe is that very thought.

This is why, you are having trouble understanding this point, in the sport of fishing its called a 'birds nest", you need to work on it..

And what is your response to all that I have been saying? You twist my words around and then attack me with things I never said. You use personal attacks, sarcasm and lies. You love trying to put labels on me and sorting me into a group and then attacking me on grounds I'm part of that group.

Quit whinning..

Your doctrine doesn't lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they don't know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.

Christians use this passage to somehow or other prove what they believe, but the context of this passage is written to the christian church at Ladocisians, in case you hadn't noticed, the context is a call to repentance and to overcome, as He overcame.  

You should pray when you come across verses you do not comprehend, taking them out of context, is nothing more than a pretext..

Blessings,
Petro

[partakers]

Tawhano,

 Posted by tawhano at reply #35

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I quoted the above scripture and here again you used personal attacks and lies to support your point of view by claiming I said we are under the law. I explained to you what my view on Jesus' words 'If ye love me, keep my commandments.' and it has nothing to do with keeping the old laws or a believer losing his salvation if he didn't keep them. And yet you ignore what I clearly said and put words in my mouth and then attack those words, which I never said. I posted this verse to indicate that the Bible clearly indicated that there was something required of us to do to obtain the promise of God and that is the promise of the Holy Spirit. I tied this verse in with receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:39); which you yourself had indicated is the end result of being saved.

You are ignoring my response to you concerning, this matter, you are still trying to make the word partaker of the Holy Gohst, as receiving the Holy Spirit herein, how have you tied those two together, at all, is beyond me..

The receiving of the Holy Spirit occurs after one receives the gift of Faith to believe to the saving of the soul, so, trusting the witness of the Holy Gohst while God the Father is drawing the indivudual to Christ is essential, and precedes the gift Faith to believe, followed by Jesus baptizing the individual with the Holy Spirit.

Notice,  Peter, who had not believed to the saving of the soul, at this time, professed to Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16), to which Jesus replied;

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  

This clearly was the work of the Holy Spirit drawing Peter to the truth concerning Jesus. Peter even terstifed

"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." (Jhn 6:68)................ when Jesus asked him

"Will ye also go away?".  

None of the apostles or disciples believed in Jesus, until after His resurrection.  

How do you reconcile, these facts.. they were not regenerated as of yet.. and yet, they testified the light of the truth that had been shed upon by the Holy Spirit, even Jesus confirmed it, when he answered Peter.  

This is clearly a testimony that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit (while they were yet in unbelief), who was working in them..bringing them ultimately to Faith.

Topic: Eternal Security Post#75 by Petro
Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

Response posted by Tawhano;

But how does one get to the point that they receive the Holy Spirit in the first place? You suggest it's because God gives us the faith to believe first.

You confuse the issue by assuming, that because the Holy Spirit of God the Father, draws unsaved people, to himself, that He might give them ultimately to Jesus (not all who are drawn are given, some come and consider and then leave, these are the ones of Heb 6), with one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, or sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#25 by Petro
God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.

Tawhano, comments;

But then you tell us:


Topic: Eternal Security Post#104 by Petro

Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

Tawhano, asks;

How does one repent if they don't first believe? And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim? And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don't first repent?

One at a time;

1.Q.  How does one repent if they don't first believe?

A.  It is a process, the belief needed to come to repentance, has nothing to do with Jesus, just yet,  one must come to the truth, that he is a sinner, condemned to death because of sin, and that there is nothing he can do about this himself, God who knows the hearts of men, gives more light as this sinner desires more truth, concerning this matter, when he (the sinner) agrees with God that he is deserving of death,
the sinner responds at this point by repenting and  God the Spirit, who has been revealing the Gospel to this person, forgives his sin of un belief and allows him more perfectly to understand that God himself has provided a full pardon for his sins, , and is offering a free gift of faith to believe what he could never believe nor receive while in his natural state, he is mgiven to Christ and that faith when received thru the mercy and grace of God, is focused on the finished work of Christ shed blood atonement on the cross, it is then, that Jesus, baptizes (seals)the individual with the Holy Spirit,  now, because I am not God, I can't reveal to you exactly how and what order this occurs in, but I can say with surety, that all of these elements are inherent in the Gospel, and when perfectly understood, sinners are able to grasp by faith the Gift that regenerates the soul.

2.Q.  And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim?

A.  The scritpture states plainly;

Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the Word  of God.(Rom 10:17)

Continued......................

You'all just don't have an inkling of whats goin on and whatca missing

Early,

I don't know about that,

Once a friend envited me to a seminar at his church, and at the end of a portion of it, someone prayed from the pulpit, and everyone started praying out loud, so that I couldn't hear or understand anything, about what anybody was saying, it was like sitting in room, with everbody talking at once, a man, who was babbling to one side of me, I asked afterwards what were you saying, he answered "I don't know",, and there was a lady on the other side of my friend who was crying profusely duringg this time, and since she was friends with my friend, and he was talking to her afterwards, i asked him, why was she crying, he answered, she always does that..

So, from my perspective I guess I would have to agree with you;  I didn't know what was going on and as for missing it, I am still wondering, why I would want to do something I didn't know or understand it was I was doing..

I have often wondered if it isn't just being taken away by emotions..  I still don't know what to make of it.

Do I make any sense??

But thanks anyhow,,

Blessings,  Petro